The Western Union Company (WU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone. This is Tien-Tsin Huang. I cover the payments, processors and IT services sector at JPMorgan. And really super happy to have Western Union back with us again. With us from Western Union, we've got Hikmet Ersek, the President and CEO of Western Union; and of course, Raj Agrawal, CFO of Western Union. We're going to do a fireside chat. And we will be taking questions from the Ask a Question portal, as we've been promising every session. We'll be looking at that. And so feel free to plug in there, and we'll try and hit your questions if I don't hit them here. So thank you both. Hikmet, Raj, great to see you guys. Thanks for doing this.

[ Great to see you. ]

[ Good to be here. ]

No, it's great. It's a busy time, I know, for all of you. So again, I figure we'd go right into the obligatory question just to kick it off, Hikmet and Raj, to ask around the macro and the recovery. You have a great view of the whole world and what's happening. I'm sure people want to hear about India, for example. So can you just give us an update where are you optimistic on the recovery? And where do you think more caution might be warranted?

Yes. Obviously, being in 200 countries, the biggest advantage of Western Union has a global view, obviously. I literally came back last night this morning at 1:00 from Europe back, and had meetings there also so that -- look, globally, the economy is, I believe, in the right direction, Tien-Tsin. I think it's really moving in the right direction. There are different dynamics. in the send countries, which we call developing countries, obviously, the economy is recovering and there is a big need for money transfer to support their loved ones on the receive countries. And India, as you mentioned, is one of the examples that we could see how people are desperate to support their loud ones in back home. And there is need. There are more and more needs for -- besides medical needs are the people losing their jobs, they have no means to fund, to support their families. And the good news is that, during these times, we do see at Western Union the people choose the trusted one, trusted money transfer companies. In fact, as we just announced at the last quarter, we grew 28% on the principal amount, which is huge, right? I mean -- and our digital business, as Raj always says that, firing from all cylinders. And people are new customers which we did not see in the past, which used maybe some correspondent bankings or other money transfer companies, are really switching to us and using our dot-com business. And I will say, overall, yes, the business doing in a much better -- and you'll see also in the coming quarters, I'm confident -- that we just gave year-end guidance. I'm very much confident about year-end guidance. So I feel comfortable about our business coming back. Retail is also good news, is that retailers also start to come back. And people are -- when the countries are open, using the retail money transfer services also. On India specifically. Look, being a mission-driven company, serving so many people with special -- really needs the money transfer. My heart goes also in the countries where the medical services are not the best, even oxygens are missing. And they are so much dependent on our services. To support that, we immediately did -- started some pricing promotions, free transactions in certain times, certain areas, to support their loved ones. And we could see that how people are really using us. Is it, I can't pay out with a higher principal amount? Or is it a cash payout in the rural areas? Or is it even to send money to a wallet? These are things that we support during this crisis. So India is -- our numbers in India are really -- people are paying out. The retail locations are seen as essential services. And the people on the frontline, we see as doing a big fight there to leave the locations open as the post office or bank locations to pay out, or we are paying out in accounts.

Yes, no, thank you for all the work you're doing in India. I know you've done some relief efforts as well. So I don't want to forget about the important stuff behind the numbers. Thinking about World Bank. I guess they had some figures out there. They did revise it. I think you did much better than some of the Western Union -- with the Western Union statistics versus World Bank statistics. Why do you think that's the case? And any early thoughts on their forecast? I think they're calling for 2% to 3% growth in remittances over the next, what, I think, 1 to 2 years. I'm curious on your thoughts on that. So look back, how did you do versus the World Bank figures? And then looking ahead, what's your views on their forecast?

Well, obviously, again, as you said, being in 200 countries, we see the dynamics in much closer because our agents and our partners, our worldwide partners, are really reporting back to us how the people feel to send money to their loved ones. We said that it's very conservative in the beginning, and we still think that 2% to 3% is the right direction. We still think that is too conservative. I mean, if you look at the numbers, we are really growing. Our 28% cross-border principal amount, it's already very strong. Either we gained significant market share or the -- both market and we are gaining market share, I believe. That's what's happening currently. It's going to the right direction. Where we are gaining market share currently is definitely our global coverage and from bank-to-bank transfers, from correspondent banking. And where we -- some people didn't have the need maybe in the past or didn't have the time and all these things, that now they are using us. They suddenly started to use trusted brands. That's definitely something that our principal amount is growing very fast. And I would say that -- look, World Bank will definitely look at the numbers again, understanding them. And -- but that's the right direction. The market is growing.

Yes. I know a lot of the new use cases and the investments that you're making have definitely paid off, right, in terms of the outperformance that you talked about. So let's do digital. It's a tech conference, so a lot of focus on digital. I wrote down 23% of revenues today, grew 44% on transaction growth of 77%, on track to $1 billion in revenue on the digital side. So the question we always get, how much of this revenue is new to Western Union? And can we expect sequential growth from here?

Yes. I think you pull up the numbers, they are impressive, right? And growing still on that number. And first of all, Tien-Tsin, as I said earlier, and Raj can confirm that, we are on our track to $1 billion-plus revenue. I'm talking about revenue here. And as you also know from census, the study that we are -- we probably are the most downloads on the money transfer happening with Western Union, right? So it is definitely an impressive growth. And yes, I say it again and I repeat it again, 80% of our customers are new to Western Union. And I answered the question before you asked. Where are they coming from? They are, most of them, coming from correspondent banking, from banking environment or from other money transfer companies. The reason is very simple, Tien-Tsin. To use westernunion.com, you need a bank account or a credit card or a debit card. By nature, you have to register. And the retail money transfer is you register with every transactions, right? And dot-com business, westernunion.com business, you have to open an account, and then we have the repeat customers. They're not only new, and we love this customer, they are repeat customers, and we know that the lifetime value of a customer is much longer than a retail customer. And that's very exciting for our story about -- with our ecosystem, which I announced at -- a little bit at last Investor's Day in 2019, September. And we build on that, and we are really have now about 9 million customers in our westernunion.com. And we are direct -- having direct access and direct communication with the customers. And they tell us also they will like to stay longer and are looking for additional financial services. And the reason why I came back also from Europe is that we are really had -- we have there, a bank license, full bank license, as you may know. And we will open -- offer them financial services. And our tests will start in 2 countries, and then hopefully this year, 4 countries. And we -- they tell us that they will like to have consumer services, financial services. Is it a deposit? Or is it a prepaid card? Or is it digital wallet? And that's where we are growing. Now they even tell us more, right? They say that they love Western Union, they want to stay here. They may not only use the digital wallet or a loan, they may also book their flights via Western Union ecosystem. Or they may have an ethnic merchant, they want to buy their goods online with westernunion.com. So this is really building an ecosystem. It's an amazing idea. You and me discussed that, I remember a few years ago, as we were walking actually in New York. And this is something that I told you, and it's now happening. And I'm very excited to test, I'm excited about the test. And I just came back last night, as I said, and it was quite encouraging that we could start -- we get the regulatory approval. We present that to the regulatories. And that's something exciting.

No, that is exciting...

I think, Tien-Tsin -- sorry, Tien-Tsin. On the sequential growth, we should see it just by default because we generated a little bit more than $240 million of revenue in the first quarter. And so to get to the $1 billion-plus, it is -- the math just justifies that you will get some sequential improvement as the quarters progress in the numbers.

Yes. That does make good sense. So back to the 9 million digital users, and I think it is exciting, right, to offer more financial services. That's a big theme, right? Customer acquisition is hard to come by. And everyone wants to bank those users and offer more bank-like products. We just heard from Square, and that's certainly what they're trying to do with their Cash App product. So my question is this. I mean, $9 in revenue per month is where you're at today. I don't know if there's a way to benchmark where you think this ARPU can go. Or is it -- are you more focused on driving user growth instead? Walk us through where your priorities are.

Well, obviously, these 9 million customers, first of all, is extending that 9 million customers, having more customers. As you know, we are in 75 countries. The big difference between other payments and other ecosystems of Western Union is that, let's assume that you are in Germany. We are not talking to German customers, we are talking to Albanian, Yugoslavian, Serbian, Turkish customers, all the migrant population. Not -- they tell us that they trust Western Union, and they will like to be included and getting treated by dignity. And that's what we give to the customers. They like us. We communicate in their language. We integrate them in the society. Besides, making a business model and focusing on that customer segment is huge. Not many companies do that. They more focus on their -- in their area with the different customer segment. But our biggest advantage is the migrant population, which we really know about that. The second thing is, when I look the priorities, obviously, we know that westernunion.com users use Western Union more often than the retail customers. That's going to continue, that usage of the customers that want to continue to send money transfer. And the part of that at the test, we will see how the customers will use us also besides money transfer product. Now strategically, that's a big change, right? It's going from a transaction-based P&L to a customer relationship P&L. So the question is, how often -- what's the return on investment on Hikmet, as the return on equity on Hikmet Ersek as a customer, right, for a long term? Which products they want to use? How much he's going to return to the user -- sending the money or using the financial products or using other products? It's definitely very exciting, and that's what we are testing. That's the business model built on that. It's in early stages, obviously. The service looks very exciting. We will give more color on that when we talk next time.

Okay. No, it is important. We'll be sure to ask you more. One more. And I think I asked you this on the earnings call, but I'll ask it again, in this format. I think you've talked about, in the retail business, you have 150 million users. You have 9 million on the digital side. I would imagine you can break through that 150 million, certainly on a TAM standpoint. But in terms of your reach, how do you think about that, the TAM potential around digital users? Because you said it, LTV, the stickiness, has to be very high once you acquire the customer.

So again, I'm coming back to my earlier comments, is westernunion.com customers, by nature, are different customers than the retail customers because they have to have a bank account, right, to send the money. So this profile, it's hard to compare with -- these are incremental customer for us. They are a new customer for us, that's a good story. But it's hard to compare with retail customers. From 150 million retail customers, about 70 million are senders, 80 million are like -- about that, is receivers. Raj, correct me if I say something wrong here.

About half. About half.

About half. Okay. So it's that direction. And we know that many customers will like to have also loyalty programs. And within that, our ecosystem, we do have, under dedicated locations, customer -- selling via retail, a digital product also. Not only online, selling them also on the dedicated locations. If you are in France, you go to Nice or Morocco to Western Union dedicated locations, you not only will send money, you may also apply for our insurance services. That's exactly what we are doing with AXA together to offer additional services at our locations also. So coming back to your original question, yes, the potential is much bigger. It's a different customer segment. And I believe also excited about that because the brand value for these customers is huge. And they trust us. And we don't have to invest in advance, like many companies do that, building that brand awareness. The people know us, the Albanian in Germany know us and they trust us. And why should they also not trust with other services?

We did a PDP survey recently. I know it was -- not surprised, but Western Union always scores so highly in terms of brand awareness with the users. So that brand is very, very, very powerful. So using that, thinking about just digital competition, there are a lot of digital pure plays, they don't have a profit burden like Western Union has. So how do you feel like -- your size is big with $1-billion plus, but how do you benchmark pricing and growth when you look at some of these pure plays?

Yes. I think, as you said, we are in -- in digital, if you talk about digital pricing. If you look at that, we are in 75 different countries, sending money to 200 countries. I think that's one of the biggest portfolio in digital environment, right? I mean, not many companies do that. So we are looking really by -- not only by corridor-on-corridor on our prices, we really look at the use cases on the prices. I don't see generally a big pricing fight on that. I see current environment very stable and continue to be this stable. And that's going to continue, I believe, for what I can see. Our biggest advantage is that we're going to continue to do pricing actions in sometimes a competitive corridor, sometimes in -- are we going to do a Mother's Day or back-to-school or the birthday or loyal customers. It's like a dynamic pricing like an airliner or with loyalty programs, that's what we are doing. And that helps a lot to create the customer lifetime value also, doing that environment. Sometimes, we increase the fees; sometimes, we decrease; sometimes, we are FX, depending on what the customer wants. And depending on where you send the money. Is it a high inflationary country, or is it a hard currency county? Do you send money to dollar-to-dollar or dollar-to-pesos? All these things are a huge advantage. We have -- we had really hired great talent. We invested, as you know, a lot on our artificial intelligence, on our data. Shelly Swanback and her team is doing a great job. [ Jay Guffin ], who runs the westernunion.com, hired really -- people who really understand that industry. And that's a big advantage for us despite the other competitors which don't have the big corridor portfolio.

Yes -- important projects -- go ahead.

Sorry, there's a uniqueness to our business that most others are not going to be able to match, which is the retail payout capability. So the diversity of the payout is unique to Western Union with our global coverage. Not only can we do account payout, and we're creating faster account payout all over the world, but most other digital players that are digital-only will not have the ability to pay out in multiple channels, which is unique. Because still today, the vast majority of our wu.com revenue is digitally initiated, but pays out at a retail location because that's the consumer use case, right? But there are also customers that want to receive it in an account, so we can also do that. So that combination of omnichannel payout and omnichannel spend is very unique to Western Union.

No, good point. Thanks for bringing that up, Raj. And plus, the surgical pricing. Like you said, there's some opportunity there. I did want to ask about the white label business, with what you did in Russia and then Saudi Arabia of STC Pay, tremendous amount of growth you saw. Are there more opportunities like these? And what are your -- what are you looking for in a partner on the white label side before you proceed and go live?

So especially during COVID, it showed that the correspondent banking environment is not more effective money if your loved ones need money immediately, to send money. By nature, correspondent banking has the issue about -- of course, you have to correspond with other banks to drop money and clear money on that. Given our platform, unique platform, enables banks to serve their customers, their ecosystem in a much better way. And that's the idea behind the white labeling, offering your platform where we, as Western Union, think that we will -- obviously, we have westernunion.com also in Russia and Saudi Arabia. But there is already an existing ecosystem. What happened with Sberbank, as an example, is that they were sending money to Central Asian countries all the time. In fact, Tajiikistan is one of the example, it's one of our largest corridors. And from Russia -- from Sberbank to Russia, they were doing that business, Tien-Tsin. It's just -- they just switched their provider or correspondence banking to Western Union because it's more efficient, because it's more compliant, because it's better, applies with regulators. It is faster for the customers. Still called Sberbank money transfer, but the platform is behind that. Same goes with STC. There were -- they are a new -- they are the telecom company of Saudi Arabia, and they have millions of millions of migrant customers offering their services, and they want offer that one. They said, "Okay, we are taking this provider here, as Western Union." So there have been 2 unique. One we recently announced at end of 2019, and they have been impressive growth rates. That doesn't mean that we did not add additional. The others are more smaller. We had 50, 60 white label partners on that. But it is not the size, like uniqueness of we had 2 of them. That's why we call them out because they're so unique and so large. Do I want a more Sberbank? Yes, of course. If somebody wants, ready to give us all this current correspondent banking to us, we will immediately take it. And believe me, we could do a better service than any correspondent banking on that. Our platform is really good. And when I talk about platform, I'm talking about more, it's not the technology platform on it, Tien-Tsin. It's compliance, it's process, it's settlement, it's the payout, all these things, right? It's a complex area, and that's great.

Yes. So given that, who do you compete with here? I had a question here from the audience asking, who do you compete with on the private label side...

Well, most of course, online banking, especially when it comes to the exotic currency, from hard currency sending to the other currencies, is use SWIFT, right? And SWIFT Correspondent Banking is the definite -- or you have agreements, correspondent banking agreements with switches, on country switches. And the big uniqueness of Western Union is that there's one switch for a bank. One thing. One stop, one stop, right? And we deliver the payout, we deliver the compliance, we deliver the know your customer, on the send side and receive side. That's the uniqueness. So most of them are switches, country switches, region switches, or SWIFT.

Thank you. That's helpful. I always forget about the SWIFT, that's important to talk about. Let's quickly -- and I don't think we've talked about Google Pay. You did put out a release together with Google. So what are you doing with Google Pay? And how does this fit with your broader strategy that you talked about at Investor Day?

Well, it's like the white labeling, right? Google Pay wants to offer their customer different payments instruments, different financial services, their ecosystem. And when it comes to cross-border payments, they need a partner. And Western Union, obviously, is a great partner here for -- we start to test with Singapore and [ dropping ] in from Singapore and to India. And we already have the platform. And Google Pay is still offering their services to their customer, and they want to have a provider. That's Western Union. Now it's only a test price at 2 countries, right? We believe it's a bigger potential. As you know, Google has a huge business also in India with a lot of partners there. I believe that, that's a good start for a growth opportunity for both of us.

Good. No, it sounds like a fun one to watch. So just to wrap on the digital and the white label business here. Any update on the profitability and the margin profile of this versus the traditional business?

I mean, Raj, jump in. But we are very pleased with the contribution margin. The contribution dollars are much slower than the westernunion.com business, but the contribution margin is much higher. So Raj, do you want to add something?

Yes. Yes. I think the one thing to remember, Tien-Tsin, we've talked about the specifics a lot. But the digital business, whether it's wu.com or digital white label or other forms of that, are very margin-supportive of our margin goals. And then if you think about the digital business, which is now 23% of consumer revenues as of the first quarter, that was in the mid-teens a year ago. And along that way, we've expanded margins last year. We're going to expand margins again this year. That's the biggest proof point we can provide. And yes, the contribution margins are higher in the digital white label side than wu.com, and wu.com is higher than retail. So they're all very nice margin contributors. And the digital side, the new customers that are coming into the digital business, are new to the company for the most part, right? That's the -- it's incremental revenues and profits that we wouldn't have otherwise had. So we like the profile.

No, I think that maybe -- you may add some. The digital business, growth of the digital business, really helps on our margin expansion given the business model.

Yes.

I think that's important for investors to understand that we are committed to our guidance and we are committed to our savings. But part of that is, as we are growing with digital business, we are really like the digital business because it has a contribution to our margins and our growth, right? It couldn't be better.

Yes. It was a $600 million business in 2019, and now we're talking about $1 billion business. So with that growth, if it wasn't margin-supportive, we wouldn't have been able to get to the margin goals that we have laid out.

The -- I just want to make sure -- we have about 10 minutes left. I want to hit a few of these. I didn't want to not ask about the traditional retail business. You said it is coming back. I guess the question is, do you expect that to get back to pre-COVID growth at some point? And do you think about the growth rate differently post pandemic? I know the digital business is going well, but the traditional business is still quite big for you.

I think you will -- you can make the math, if we say, $1 billion on our retail business, and you give a year-end guidance. You could imagine that the retail business is coming back, and we are satisfied with what the curve looks like, right? As you know, retail business is also very much depending during the time on the opening the locations or yes or no. Or the visiting hours and the limited entrance in a location, all these things are definitely dependent. The good news is that, like in the U.S., where we see today, the retails are March opening, and really, the transactions are increasing. But not all over the world, Tien-Tsin. As you know, parts of the world are taking time to get back. But I would say generally, I'm very satisfied with the return coming back, with the business and bouncing really good back, and it's very helpful. And again, we are still in a COVID environment. But positively, it will really go, I mean, positively.

Totally agree. I'm just looking at my notes thinking about Walmart, right? And we haven't talked about that in this format. Before bringing the 2 firms together, I know it's a big deal in the U.S. Again, you work with them outside the U.S., I know. But what brought you 2 together here? By the way, I purposely went to Walmart this weekend to see what the marketing was in preparation for this. And there was signage right when I walked through the door. There was signage right there as you walk in on the right side. So it does seems like it's going pretty well from a marketing perspective. So what's the latest you're thinking there?

So yes, we are on the market. Thank you visiting a Walmart location, but we are on the market at 10, 15 days or something like that, right? We are activating Walmart locations. And I think that we are very excited about that relationship. It's one of our larger relationship, hopefully. But putting things in perspective, none of our retail locations are bigger than -- our agents are bigger than 5% of our revenue. And so it is really adding to our portfolio. There is always a question sometimes, why Walmart, not digital? It's not -- as you know, we are open and we are adding additional incremental revenue to our existing retail business, we were not there, and that will definitely help us. And Western Union-Walmart, I have to say, is a great partner. They really focus on customer. They really ask the customer what they want. They really direct the customer. And there will -- it will take some time under we have the train the trainer and the Walmart location, the frontline associate. But once it's rolled out, it will have incremental revenue opportunity for us.

Okay. Good. Raj, do you have something to add there?

No, no. I think we covered it.

Great, terrific. I know that -- let me think. Crypto. I want to make sure we -- we're at almost 5 minutes, I want to make sure we asked about crypto. I think we've asked on every session, guys, about crypto. And Hikmet, I know you take it very seriously, right? What kind of assets you want to validate on your network. And you take all of that -- again, I know you take it very seriously. So what's your latest thinking on bringing some crypto or Stablecoin, CBDC, you pick it, in terms of your validation and bringing it on?

Obviously, you said that, we are taking it very seriously. Crypto is such a big word. As you said, we have to differentiate what crypto is, right? But are we talking about some use cases? Are we talking about blockchain? Are we talking about the Stablecoin? Or are we talking about as a payments instruments, obviously. Look, we have a unique platform which not many companies have that. We have 137 currencies we are taking and transferring to other currencies, right? Translating that in minutes. I think if crypto, if it's a digital currencies issued by Central Bank, of course. If the use case, of course, we will take it and translate it to the other current -- countries' currencies, right? I think it's important to understand, it should be a use case for customers. It should be regulated. It should be really accepted by the people and used it. Because if you receive a cryptocurrency in, let's say, 1 of our countries, payout countries, Uganda, and you can't do anything with the cryptocurrency there, it's a difficulty. But if you turn that to a fiat currency in that moment, that you need the Western Union engine behind that, and it's regulated, why not? That's the idea. I think it's -- we have our own group here. We are looking at that. We are investing in innovation. We have own innovative environment and we have people who are working on that. But it is something that we are very much targeting on consumer protection, regulatory environment, and we want to do best for the company and our shareholders to drive our platform to the next stage.

And Hikmet, I had to ask. I know you -- during the pandemic, it's tougher. But you're always meeting with regulators, and whether it be folks in the States or technology partners as well. Is there a lot of demand? Is there a lot of discussion speaking to regulators from all parts of the world from a crypto perspective? Is this a real thing that you see? Or is this still really, really early?

I mean, as you said, it depends on whom you speak to. Obviously, it is a real thing, right? I mean, obviously, it is -- but it is too early to tell, is it really a consumer use cases. And as you know, we are serving 150 million consumers worldwide. And from 200 different customers, if the customers want to pay out in regulated cryptocurrency, we are there. And -- but we've been looking at that for 6 years now, Tien-Tsin, I believe, something like that, 5, 6 years. And we started several projects. We didn't see the moving -- the big moving thing that will disrupt our industry or disrupt the consumer use cases for 6 years now. And it was more volatile actions and -- than a stable -- stability here. And the other thing is, don't forget, Western Union has been -- is a very resilient business model. Very focused on shareholder return, very focused on serving so many customers, and we are really focused on that, and that's going to continue to happen. And if there's additional opportunities like crypto, yes, we are there, and we have the team. But so far, we didn't see the big change here.

Yes. Just so wrapping up and thinking about innovation and acquisitions to get there, we've -- it does feel like industry consolidation is picking up. So do you feel more comfort in doing acquisitions at this point in the cycle? I know you've been buying back stock, which has been great. But I'm curious if you feel better about doing M&A.

Well, our priorities has not changed. One of the priorities is definitely, if there is an opportunity on M&A, we will look at it, as you know. But it has to really -- today's -- in today's world, is most of the M&As are -- you look at the opportunities, are how do you return back? What's the return? It's not only about -- we will definitely do some acquisitions, we are looking, we are around. But it's all about return. I'm very much -- as a CEO, very much focused on return. And it has to fit in with our strategy. It has to be supporting of our strategy, growth strategy, or on our expansion on our business opportunities. But I would say that there are definitely -- the industry is -- and we are looking around. It's not something that we are ignoring. And -- but return is something top of my mind.

Okay. I think we're just about out of time. So I got -- last one for me, Hikmet. Just where are you going to be spending your priorities now? It sounds like this consumer finance opportunity is going to be pretty important here.

Yes. I think it's strategically definitely something very important on building this ecosystem, is very important. And upgrading our platform to serve the different banks. It's adding additional revenue opportunities, definitely. Growth is something -- our business model with digital expansion allows us the margin expansion, and adding additional growth is something that I'm very much focused with my team.

Yes, very good. I have to ask you 1 basketball question because I see the rim there. Nuggets, Trailblazers, it seems like it's going to be a tough series...

I think it's Nuggets, and Jokic is MVP.

He is the MVP. I think he's a preemptive MVP. But he...

But we are a dress -- as you know, Western Union is a sponsor of Nuggets, on a dress sponsor. And I think we are very pleased with that. And being in Denver headquartered and supporting Nuggets, we are very proud. And me personally, being a former basketball player many, many, many years ago, it's short shorts, which has very tight and long socks. I played basketball. But I think Denver Nuggets is a real great game, while they lost Jamal Murray, and I think they have a very good team and we hope they going to take the next step. And I wish also Portland all the champ because I love NBA, and Lillard is definitely playing very well, but Jokic is the MVP.

Jokic is great. Lillard is great, but like to see Jokic could go one series. And short shorts are coming back. Hikmet, they're all coming back.

I heard. I heard. Yes.

Don't give those shorts away yet. Don't give those shorts away yet. Thank you both for the time. It's always fun to catch up. And we'll see you, hopefully, very soon.

Thank you.

Thank you.