thyssenkrupp AG (TKA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to the Interim Report 9 months 2022/2023 Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note, this call is being recorded. Now I hand over to Claus Ehrenbeck. Please begin your meeting.

Yes. Thank you very much, operator. And yes, hello, everyone, and a warm welcome also on behalf of the entire team. The conference call today will be hosted by our 2 Board members here typically available in our conference call. It will be Klaus Keysberg, the CFO; and it will be our new CEO, Miguel Lopez, whom we welcome very cordially here in this session. All the documents for this call have been made available already early this morning. They are on the IR section of our website. And with that, I finish my housekeeping remarks and I'll hand over to the 2 gentlemen. Miguel, please take over.

Thank you very much, Claus. A warm welcome also from my side to today's Q3 conference call. Actually, my first conference call as CEO of thyssenkrupp since my start in June. After the recent, listening roadshows, when I got to meet some of our analysts and investors, it is very important for me to participate in this event as I would like to stay in close contact with you the capital market going forward. That's why I would like to take this opportunity together with Klaus to highlight our management priorities and to classify the Q3 highlights and financials. For now, please let me start with my observations of thyssenkrupp to date as well as some capital market feedback that I have thankfully received within the last weeks to make it short. thyssenkrupp Group has a strong foundation that we can build on, but there are also clear challenges we need to tackle and that we are very well aware of. With regard to the strength, thyssenkrupp is a world-famous brand with leading technology positions, a long-standing customer base and a highly-motivated workforce, in my view, thyssenkrupp definitely is an industrial icon as well as one Germany's most recognized brands. As you all know, thyssenkrupp is an enabler of the green transformation for several industries, a topic that is really gaining momentum and where we will take an enhanced leading positions. On top of that, thyssenkrupp nowadays is in a solid financial position, which founds the basis for transformation and provides flexibility to capture opportunities. On the other side, we have a complex portfolio with many moving parts in combination with low execution in the past and a partial lack of transparency on segment level that makes financial modeling challenging for you. We have to overcome our cash generation legacy and close the gap to our financial targets. This impacted our shareholders as well because the returns we generated have not been sufficient enough. These observations bring me to the next page, our management priorities. The following topics are: first, on mine our management's agenda portfolio, performance and green transformation. Please note that the details of an overall holistic concept for the group are in progress and thus are yet to come. We are working on this with full efforts. For portfolio, we will continue to streamline, to streamline and to derisk the group, for instance, as current focus with regard to the evaluation of stand-alone options for Steel Europe and Marine Systems. But also in terms of the exit of our nonstrategic businesses at multi-track such as Springs & Stabilizers and Automation Engineering and we will increase our efforts to speed up decision-making as well as execution. For performance, we are aiming for an overall step-up and a sustainable positive free cash flow before M&A. It is our ambition to get there by continuing to leverage the strong USPs of our businesses, which are based on decades of experience and engineering know-how, and the corresponding rise in margins to benchmark levels, but also by improving our net working capital. This also means that we are doing hard work to turn surplus net working capital levels into cash. With such an enhanced performance, we will then be in the position to reward shareholders. And of course, this includes reliable dividend payments going forward as a clear target for us. With regard to the green transformation, I would like to start with Steel Europe. Here, we will continue to execute the tkH for Steel strategy with our first DRI plant as the key element of our decarbonization journey. And we will capitalize on our enabling businesses with their leading green technology positions, which include, for example, our Bearings business with the mission-critical components for the wind industry, nucera as technology leader in industrial scale hydrogen electrolysis plants, ammonia plants Uhde for the hydrogen economy and infrastructure, and also Polysius as a pathfinder for the cement industry to reduce carbon emissions by the carbon capture and usage technology named oxyfuel. With that having said, let us now take a look on our Q3 highlights. Overall, in Q3, we clearly delivered on our management priorities. Let us start with portfolio. Here, we managed the successful IPO of thyssenkrupp Group nucera after an intense marketing process within -- with the first day of trading at beginning of July. And please let me remind you -- this has been 1 of the largest IPOs in Europe in 2023 so far with an initial market cap of around EUR 2.5 billion and total proceeds of EUR 605 million, including the greenshoe options. I can proudly say that this is quite a success story of which thyssenkrupp Group will retain a stake of more than 50% going forward. Looking at performance, I'm happy to say that our Q3 financials are fully in line with our guidance despite softening macro conditions, such as a reduced GDP growth assumption for Germany. Nonetheless, please note that our Q3 performance includes as promised, a positive free cash flow before M&A and being more precise, our free cash flow before M&A came in at EUR 347 million. Moreover, we are now in a position to confirm and with regard to EBIT adjusted even more specify our financial outlook for the fiscal year. And we also pushed ahead with our green transformation-related activities. And let's start again with Steel Europe. We finally received the long-awaited approval by the German government for the funding of a tkH for Steel decarbonization project of around EUR 2 billion. This not being just a milestone for us. It is also a very important contribution to achieving the climate targets in Germany and Europe, and it secures numerous jobs in the region. On top of that, we signed further MOUs for the supply of CO2 reduced steel with Mercedes-Benz and BENTELER. This really is a strong proof point for us that our CO2 reduced products are well perceived by our customers and that there is a corresponding demand in the market. And let me also give some further examples. nucera was able to sign another reservation agreement with a North American customer for electrolyzer production capacity in the high 3-digit megawatt range for green hydrogen. And Uhde announced a cooperation with BASF for our proprietary EnviNOx technology, the catalytic reduction of extremely climate harmful NOx emissions, and this will enable their customers to reduce greenhouse gas emissions even more effectively. And with that, I would now like to hand over to Klaus to give you more details on our Q3 financials. Klaus?

Yes. Thank you, Miguel, and also a warm welcome from my side to today's conference call. So I must say I'm very pleased to say that today, we can present a very solid set of numbers to you, including a positive free cash flow before M&A. And I think we will mention this in the upcoming minutes several times, but I think this is clear. With the quarterly achievements, the year-to-date performance is fully in line with and strongly support our fiscal year '22, '23 financial targets. And to sum it up, Q3 was another confirming quarter for us. We are on our way. Now let us have a closer look at our financial highlights. On the top line, we saw increasing sales. This development, of course, is mainly driven by the [indiscernible] of businesses, while the industrial businesses, on the other hand, recorded an ongoing robust or even growing top line. For 9 months, sales came in at EUR 28.7 billion, with minus 6%, slightly below last year, which is also true for Q3 that came in lower year-on-year at EUR 9.6 billion. Before coming to earnings, I would like to remind you, as explained already in the last conference call of our change in the special items guidelines, FX from the valuation of CO2 certificates are treated as a special item and are thus not included in EBITDA adjusted or EBIT adjusted. Overall, and as expected, EBITDA adjusted and EBIT adjusted were again considerably lower year-on-year, mainly by the ongoing price normalization affecting our Materials businesses, namely Materials Services and Steel Europe. On the positive side, year-on-year, we saw improved contributions at Industrial Components, automotive technology as well as Marine Systems. With regard to cash flow, as Miguel has already highlighted, free cash flow before M&A came in at EUR 347 million, an improvement of EUR 758 million year-on-year. Looking at 9 months, we even increased free cash flow before M&A by more than EUR 1.8 billion year-on-year. This clearly confirms our ambition for the fiscal year to drive free cash flow before M&A into a positive territory. Let us now continue with some further highlights on the next slide. Looking at our balance sheet, I can state that it is continues to show a quite solid picture. And I assume this chart is quite familiar to you. That's why I would like to keep it short. But year-on-year, we gained EUR 1.3 billion in net cash, resulting in a net cash position of EUR 3.2 billion. We further improved our equity ratio to a very comfortable level of nearly 40%. And at the same time, pension liabilities were reduced by EUR 0.3 billion to EUR 5.7 billion. Moreover, please let me remind you that we own some valuable assets such as our stake in TK Elevator and our stake in thyssenkrupp nucera which really is a success story. By the way, please note that any effect from the thyssenkrupp nucera IPO are not yet reflected in our Q3 figures. You will see the effects, for instance, with regard to our net cash positions in our Q4 reporting. Let us now jointly take a brief look into the group's Q3 performance. We experienced a decreasing top line year-on-year with sales at EUR 9.6 billion. Again, this was more a function of lower prices at our Materials businesses than demand. With regard to our auto-related businesses, we recorded ongoing robust demand driven by the order backlog of the auto OEMs. EBITDA adjusted came in at EUR 464 million, while EBIT adjusted was down to EUR 243 million. In accordance with the top line trend, the ongoing price normalization from last year's high levels kept dominating earnings development this quarter as well. On the positive side, Industrial Components, Automotive Technology as well as Marine Systems could all enhance their performance from low levels in the previous year. Beside this, the continuation of performance and restructuring initiatives supported the performance of all our businesses. So far, FTE reduction is at approximately 11,000 out of up to 13,000. As already mentioned, free cash flow before M&A came in at EUR 347 million, with encouraging uptick was supported by, amongst others, net working capital improvements on the back of inventory leases, mainly at Materials Services and Steel Europe. And for all overall cash flow, this also implies a more balanced free cash flow before M&A that is less back-ended loaded. Let us now look at the Q3 earnings composition, namely EBIT adjusted by segment. At Materials Services, the absence of record price levels from prior year weighed on margins and offset internal efforts to increase efficiency. As a result, EBIT adjusted came down to EUR 50 million. On the volume side, we noticed total shipments being rather stable, supported by volume expansion in our direct-to-customer business. Industrial Components increased by EUR 8 million year-on-year with improvements at both units, bearings was supported by 1, where positive onetime effect while competition, especially in China keeps going on. Forged Technologies benefited from continuing strong demand from the trucks and industry customers. Both business would face a higher cost base, which the counteractive to a large extent with the respective pass on efficiency measures and cost cutting. Automotive Technology recorded a solid increase of EUR 30 million year-on-year. The favorable year-on-year development reflects higher customer demand, partial cost relief, for instance, for transport and materials as well as price and efficiency measures. On the other side, there were also some onetime effects as well as an overall increase in factor costs, which both had an offsetting effect on earnings. Steel Europe, EBIT adjusted came down considerably by EUR 186 million year-on-year because of a significant reduction in spot market prices versus last year. However, more important for us, we saw a substantial quarter-on-quarter increase for more than EUR 200 million, driven by higher volumes as well as a favorable cost development with further tailwind from materials and energy price levels that resulted in a triple-digit EBITDA per ton figure, again, to be more precise EBITDA adjusted equals EUR 100 per ton. Marine Systems, again, could improve its performance with an increase of EUR 13 million year-on-year. In that regard, the focus continued to be on performance improvements and project execution, and we could further stabilize the order and less profitable orders as well as benefit from the higher margin orders in the pipeline. Please also note that our order backlog stood at EUR 12.5 billion at the end of Q3. Multi Tracks was broadly stable year-on-year, although the performance within the different businesses units was rather heterogenous. We saw a decline at Uhde and Automation Engineering that was more or less fully compensated by an upbeat development at Polysius and Springs & Stabilizers. And nucera recorded positive earnings of previous year's level. Last but not least, our headquarter and others slightly decreased by EUR 6 million year-on-year. Having talked about the past quarter, let's now have a look on our full year outlook with our earnings to cash flow bridge on the next slide as you also know this. Overall, we expect an EBIT adjusted in the range of a high three-digit million euro figure as we see progress in performance and transformation across all businesses. With the fiscal year being well advanced, we decided to specify the EBIT adjusted guidance in that regard, please consider that Q4 is mainly for seasonality reasons expected to come in well below the Q3 level. If you consider effective depreciation of approximately EUR 1 billion, you can also conclude a sizable EBIT adjusted -- EBITDA adjusted figure for fiscal year 2022-2023. For free cash flow before M&A, we continue to strive for an increase to a slightly positive figure. Please let me emphasize, like in our last conference call, this target is our highest priority, and I'm very confident that we will make our way into positive territory this year, and will be there to stay. Let us now look into the details between earnings and cash flow. We plan higher investments year-on-year, including mainly noncash IFRS 16 effects. Investments will be above depreciation as there are also strategic growth investments planned at all businesses. This, for instance, includes investments for the first direct reduction plant at Europe. Overall, we are closely monitoring our CapEx spending and are steering with flexibility. Furthermore, we expect releases in net working capital, especially in the second half, which we have successfully shown in Q3 already. Then there are payments for restructuring, which will have an impact in the low three-digit million range, as you already know, and other positions include taxes, interest and pensions. All in all, this leads to our target of an increase to slightly positive figure in free cash flow before M&A for this fiscal year. The next slide also should look somewhat familiar to you. But in my opinion, it is crucial to keep highlighting where we are coming from when looking at financial performance in the past year and which, of course, upside potentials are also ahead of us. Our financial KPIs substantially improved on the back of performance and restructuring initiatives in the first 9 months. Performance initiatives accounted for a positive effect in the range of mid-three-digit million euro amount. And in addition, the largest headcount restructuring program ever at tk is further progressing showing a fulfillment level of more than 85%. This all helped us to significantly improve both EBIT adjusted and free cash flow before M&A. In this context, please let me remind you of our midterm targets, which include an EBIT adjusted margin in the range of 4% to 6% for the group as well as a significantly positive free cash flow before M&A. Please consider that the midterm targets are just a milestone on our journey. Beyond the midterm, there are upside potentials for instance, through progress in our transformation, also leading to much better operational performance. Fixing on cash losses at Multi Tracks over time, further reducing restructuring cash out and normalized but still above depreciation, invest levels will support our cash flow generation in the longer term. And with this, I would like to hand over to Miguel, to begin [indiscernible].

Thank you, Klaus. Please let me take this opportunity to emphasize the key highlights once more. First, our Q3 financials are fully in line with our guidance and has promised free cash flow before M&A has turned sizable positive. Second, we confirmed and with regard to EBIT adjusted, even more specified our full year outlook towards the higher end of the guidance range despite softening macro conditions in Germany. Third, we are fully on track with tkH for steel decarbonization strategy as we finally received the necessary approvals for funding of around EUR 2 billion for our first DRI plant. Fourth, with the successful nucera IPO, even in a challenging market environment, we were able to further crystallize value. And fifth, there's a clear commitment to step up performance explicitly aiming at a sustainable positive free cash flow before M&A, profitability on benchmark level for all of our businesses, and reward shareholders with reliable dividend payments as a clear target. This clear ambition will be underpinned by a comprehensive performance program to be implemented in the near future containing key elements such as further consequent optimization of net working capital levels, more rigorous focus on benchmark performance for all of our businesses and the application of stricter return on investment and value-add criteria for our capital allocation decisions. For us, however, performance is not just about specific measures, it is also a cultural issue and a question of attitude. Going forward, the performance program will be an important element of the holistic concept for the group, which is yet in elaboration. And with that, we are at the end of our presentation. Thank you so far. And now we are ready for your questions.

Thank you very much, Miguel. Klaus, thank you very much. And operator, please take over for the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Jason Fairclough from Bank of America.

Just a couple of simple ones for me. Firstly, on nucera, could you just talk about the reporting approach? So will you remove this from Multi tracks and reported separately from the next period? Second question is one for our new CEO. Miguel, you've jumped on to a moving horse, right? So there's a plan. The company is executing it. Do you like the look of this plan or should we possibly see some changes in strategy and the restructuring plans?

Yes. Maybe if I can start with the reporting of nucera. This is not decided at the moment. So most likely, we will do something, but this is too early to say to very specific ones.

Yes. Thank you for your question. So the way I look to the first 70, I think, 1 days of being here in thyssenkrupp, the CEO is we have 3 clear buckets of action, which is, first, the portfolio, and we will continue on the portfolio optimization around Steel and Marine Systems. Second, performance in order to enhance performance and look for the fulfillment of the capital market communicated targets back in '21, we need now to set up the performance program, and we will -- and we are in preparation of doing so. And the third one is the green transformation I referred to in my presentation already, which is basically, one, the transformation of the steel to the steel unit to a green steel unit, which has been initiated so far. And second, to bring -- to shine all the elements in our portfolio -- technologies in our portfolio that help others to decarbonize their operations like what I have mentioned before, nucera is about, but also Uhde, and Polysius, and of course, Bearings. So no change in strategy. It is to full speed, implement what we have been defining for the group and with an even more clear focus on performance.

The next question comes from the line of Bastian Synagowitz from Deutsche Bank.

My first questions go to Mr. Lopez as well, if that's okay. Actually, a follow-up on Jason's question. Just on the performance and restructuring program, which you have mentioned. What will be the time frame for the communication around this? And can we expect that even this year? That is my first question.

Thank you for the question. Yes, we are in preparation, and we expect that in the next months to come, we will communicate details around the performance program.

Okay. But that means that it could actually still be this year, maybe together with the full year numbers?

Definitely, it will.

Okay. That is a very clear message. Then a brief follow-up to that as well. I guess, as someone who's looking at the company now with a fresh pair of eyes, where do you see the focus for the improvements? And do you, in particular, feel that steel has done enough with the recent margins, which are not too far away from previous mid-cycle levels, which thyssenkrupp Group used to achieve despite, I guess, most of the competitors which have delivered numbers probably well above mid-cycle.

I would like to ask you for your understanding that I would like to, together with my colleagues, communicate the details of the performance program in a very complete way. I would rather not go now into details if you allow because we are developing this as we speak, and we would like to give you the really overall picture rather than some details here and there, if that's okay for you.

But maybe I can add something. You know, of course, the Strategy 2030, which includes headcount reduction, which we are still in the progress to do. So it's not finished. And you also know the Strategy 2030 program, which has to do with CapEx. And here, we are also not finished. So these 2 effects will, let's say, also contribute to performance. And you know that this is as planned, not finished yet, but it's going to come.

Okay. Okay. That's fair. Then very last question actually on cash flow, which remains the issue of the company. I guess you emphasized that a few times. I think delivered very well this quarter. You simply be very committed also for the last quarter and even into next year. But how do you look at CapEx? Do you see the current levels as adequate for the near and midterm just in the context of still being around 60% above depreciation?

Yes. First of all, this year, yes, I can confirm what you said. And regarding the CapEx levels for the coming years, of course, we are now in the process of doing our operational planning. And of course, everything will be reviewed, but we are too early to really say what kind of level we are going to expect here. I mean, you know that we have some CapEx, which we do into the green transformation. This is also very clear. We also have to do something with the Strategy 2030. But all in all, we are not in the position to really, let's say, give you precise numbers at that point of time.

The next question comes from the line of Alain Gabriel from Morgan Stanley.

Just a couple of questions from my side. So firstly, on the Multi Tracks that the easy wins are now done. And I do appreciate you're still in the process of reviewing that portfolio, but I think you've sold what you could sold and you shut down what you could shut down easily. From here onwards, are we stuck with the recurring loss for that business for the foreseeable future? How patient are you going to be with that business? And any imminent plans you can share with us at this stage? That's my first question.

Yes. No. I mean, of course, we achieved something. This is very clear. We -- you know that we are also in the process of having talks to potential investors for Springs & Stabilizers business and Automotive Engineering business. And with the rest of the business, we are, of course, restructuring the business. And I mean, you see already progress if you look -- if you compare the figures to last year. So -- so here we are in this remaining business also in restructuring processes. And of course, this is clearly the goal not to have loss-making companies here very quick.

And my second question is on the net working capital. Net working capital optimization appears key to your group free cash flow objectives, as you've just articulated. We can work out roughly how much you plan to release in Q4. But thinking beyond fiscal '23, how much more net working capital can be taken out of the business in your opinion, as I suspect it's a structured component of it and there is a cyclical component with the net working capital buildup over the last 2 years.

I mean if you can calculate what amount we will release in the Q4, I mean this will be something. This is very clear. It will be a high 3-digit number in Q4. And of course, this is our -- first, of course, is our -- that we with our, let's say, restructuring efforts we are doing at Miguel is talking about, we will also have, of course, a closer look to net working capital. I mean if we look at the end of this fiscal year, I think we achieved already something. But of course, this is a target to even improve, maintain the level or even improve. And -- but to be more precise, we have to, let's say, wait on the elaboration of the performance program, as Miguel said before.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Christian Obst from Baader Bank.

I have a question concerning personnel, number of employees. So despite the fact that you talked about a lot of restructuring and made a lot of restructuring over the last years. When I'm looking into those decisions, I see that almost every division added personnel over the last 3 years. Beside Multi Tracks of course, can you give us some kind of an idea why you added this kind of personnel despite all of that kind of restructuring and performance improvement targets?

So first of all, this is not true. We can go line by line. This is true for some of the businesses. And if we would look at a closer look into the details. You know that we -- let's say it this way, we reduced our headcount from 108,000 at the end of fiscal year 2019, to 97,000 all in all, overall.

Yes. Mainly by investments.

No, not only [indiscernible] investment here, you can look at Material Services and other things. So this is multi-tree you are right, but in the other is not. So -- and of course, if we look at the reduction of personnel, we are also looking at reduction of personal in high-cost countries. And of course, if we see, for instance, for Marine business, if we, let's say, make further business in Brazil, of course, there is also, let's say, an increase in personnel. And then the goal is clearly to reduce in high-cost countries. And if we see increase in headcount, this has something to do with special orders with special growth initiatives in not high-cost countries. We can go to this for 1 hour, and I could explain it to you. So this is clearly effect.

Okay. Then I have a question concerning the status of the current transformation process or how you call it in Marine Systems. Steel Europe, and you do not mention automotive systems. There was the idea about the possible joint venture with the Japanese company that was canceled. And do you have also any idea for the future of the automotive business? What is the current status currently now at Marine Systems for the next step of Steel Europe. Can you describe this, please?

Well, the plans for Steel Europe, but also Marine Systems are there, and we are taking now actions around how to make this happen. Obviously, I cannot talk about details here. But the work is done and is ongoing. It's a clear priority for the group. To me, the automotive unit is not on the plate. So we are not talking about this being on the plate in the past. And for me, this is not on the plate right now. It is focused on the things that I mentioned that we mentioned before in the portfolio area, the two that we just were speaking about and obviously very much in the performance and also in the green transformation.

Christian, when you refer to Automotive, I think you referred to the Automotive businesses within Multi Tracks -- and I think...

Not only...

Okay. But just to say that, well, Miguel commented on the automotive technology auto activities. And regarding the remaining ones that are in multi-track we can say that the M&A processes there are really well advanced.

Okay. And Mr. Lopez maybe last question is concerning you have a net cash position now EUR 3 billion something will be -- will exceed or should exceed EUR 4 billion at the end of this business year -- what kind of is your position? Do you like to wait with that kind of net cash position until all of the more big transformation steps are done then with the Europe Marine System and so on? Or do you have from other ideas how to use the cash also for shareholders?

Yes. I mean you're right. So the net cash position is going to increase. This is clear. And I think we discussed it several times. It is -- we do not have, let's say, an idea which is at the moment to communicate. So most likely we will, of course, let's say, see what will be regarding portfolio coming up, and you should not expect some major things at the moment.

Okay. Maybe a last one. The current -- what can you -- what would you add attentions to Steel Europe in the current integration?

These are the pensions, which are, let's say, indicated to them. I think you know the numbers. So out of this is EUR 2.7 billion.

We have a follow-up question from the line of Bastian Synagowitz from Deutsche Bank.

I've got 2 quick follow-up questions more on the business. And the first one is actually on Bearings, if that's okay. So I was just wondering how your order dynamic has started in your fourth quarter. And also whether you see any risk to be drawn into the Siemens Gamesa situation?

Well, we are not aware about our customer in regard to some claims are similar. So nothing received here. We are not aware of this. And of course, overall, the wind industry is in a quite interesting moment. So still challenging, but no specific items for Q4 so far.

Okay. I mean, if you turn this around, if you haven't received anything, I guess, just following from what Siemens Gamesa has said that they have cut off apparently 1 supplier shouldn't this potentially turn out to be even a positive for you?

Well, I would think that there is so far not positive, not negative. So it's -- I would rather call it a neutral situation.

Okay. And then my last question is, again, coming back on your decarbonization plans. And first of all, congrats for securing such a large number of funding support. It's quite remarkable. I understand that there are possibly some delays in the hydrogen project for one of your supply partners, I guess, with STEAG. What is the situation here? And how may that impact you specifically? Could that impact the part of your funding support, which is related to the use of green hydrogen. If you could maybe talk about that, that will be helpful.

Definitely not. You know that we are in discussions with several, let's say, providers of green hydrogen. Of course, this is something we also know, yes. But at the end of the day, we are talking to many potential hydrogen producers. And at the moment, we are very comfortable that this is not going to be an issue for us.

As there are no further questions, I will return the conference back to you.

Yes. Thank you very much, operator. Well, we then also would like to thank you finally here for participating in this conference call for being interested and for contributing here with your questions. Of course, as always, we are looking forward to staying in contact with you and are available for any further questions you might have. And with that, we conclude the conference call and wish you a nice remainder of the day. Bye-bye.

Thank you. This now concludes our presentation. Thank you all for attending.