Tinexta S.p.A. (TNXT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Tinexta Group consolidated results at September 30, 2022 conference call. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Josef Mastragostino, Chief Investor Relations Officer. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, operator. Good afternoon and good morning to the folks in the U.S. Thank you for joining Tinexta's 2022 first 9 months' results presentation. Here with me today is Pier Andrea Chevallard, CEO of Tinexta; and Oddone Pozzi, Group Chief Financial Officer. As a reminder, all the relevant documentation of the 9 months 2022 results can be downloaded from our company website in the Investor Relations section. For the purpose of this call, I will go over the 9 months 2020 highlights and updates. Oddone instead will go over the 9 months 2022 financial results, as well as the business unit's performance, providing us with a deep dive. The last part of the call will be dedicated to Q&A. A recording of this conference call will also be available on the company's website, and it will be posted upon completion of this call. At this point, I will kick it off by turning to Page 3 of the presentation. Nine months 2022 results shows continuing double-digit growth, providing support on our way to delivery for 2022. Please note that in order to allow a complete analysis is possible in this presentation, 9 months 2022 results are compared both on a like-for-like basis as well as on 2022 basis, which includes all of Tinexta's companies with the addition of the newly acquired ones. In addition, as we had mentioned during our last conference call, the 9 months' financial comparison data has been restated, taking into account the disposal of the Credit Information and Management Division and emphasizing results on a continuing operation space. This, in other words, means that a more meaningful like-for-like comparison has been carried out between the years 2022 and 2021. On the P&L, for instance, you will find a line item highlighting at the net income level the results of discontinued operations. So turning to revenue. They came in at EUR 246.7 million in 9 months, posting a plus 19% versus prior year growth. EBITDA adjusted, which you all know by now, excludes stock option, other nonrecurring, is the better indicator for real performance, and it came in a EUR 54.8 million, growing 17% versus prior year, mainly driven by digital trust and innovation in marketing services. EBITDA on a reported level came in at EUR 49 million for the 9 months, growing 12%. EBITDA margin was mostly in line with prior year at 22%, and EBIT was close to EUR 29 million, growing 15% versus prior year. Net profit of continuing operation came in at EUR 18.5 million, growing 21% versus prior year. And net profit was EUR 64 million, growing over 168% versus prior year, mainly driven by the net capital gain deriving from the sale of Innolva. Net financial position was EUR 139 million versus EUR 263 million on the fiscal year '21. This was strongly improved by over 47% versus fiscal year '21 on the proceeds from the sale of Innolva as part of the sale of Credit Information and Management. The leverage ratio or net financial position over last 12 months EBITDA adjusted was down at 1.65x versus 2.67x on the fiscal year '21. Adjusted free cash flow of continuing operation was EUR 36.2 million, substantially in line with the prior year; on an LTM base Adjusted free cash flow of continuing operation was close to EUR 50 million. Going to the business lines. Most of the business lines continue to grow also in the 9 months 2022. Digital Trust grew 22% in revenue, EBITDA grew even more at 35.4%. EBITDA margin reached a very high 29% margin. Cyber Security grew 6% in revenue, and EBITDA was close to EUR 5 million with an EBITDA margin of around 9%. Innovation and Marketing Services posted a very healthy plus 27% growth in revenues, and EBITDA grew 10.2%, with an EBITDA of overall margin of 35%. In terms of the recent events and updates on, as you all know, we issued a press release on October 28, Tinexta signed binding agreement with Intesa San Paolo relating to its entry into the share capital of Warrant Hub. The transaction provides for an investment bank in San Paolo to enter to Warrant Hub that currently holds 100% of Forvalue for a value of EUR 55 million. These are received from the sale to CRIF of the stake of Innolva. The investment in Warrant Hub will take place through a capital increase as a result of which Intesa San Paolo will hold 12% of the share capital. The current strategic partnership between Intesa and Tinexta is confirmed and strengthened through commercial agreements related to Forvalue's activities aimed at supporting Italian small and medium enterprises in their growth steps. The closing is expected imminently following the adoption of the resolution of the capital increase and the approval of the new bylaws. Upon completion of the transaction, 88% of Warrant Hub's share capital will be held by Tinexta, which expresses the corporate governance, and 12% by Intesa San Paolo. I will -- we will discuss turning to Page 4 all the different transaction details. We've just highlighted the third box, and I'm sure Oddone will complete any further questions that you might have. Going to Page 5, most of the comments have already been made. I will leave it to Oddone at this point for any specific details. Oddone?

Good afternoon, everybody. So let's walk through the results at Page 5 at the results of 9 months. Revenue is going up by almost 20%, on organic base, it's up 6%, plus the increase driven by the acquisitions we have made in CertEurope and Evalue. Digital Trust, as we will see later on, went up more than 10%, but also Cyber Security innovation market services were up. The same, of course, also for EBITDA adjusted, that is up 16.6%, and the profit from continued operation is going up more than 20%. If we look also at the adjusted free cash flow, we -- the group continue to deliver a very interesting free cash flow that accounts for EUR 36.2 million at the end of September. We move now to Page 7, and we go through the P&L. P&L of the first 9 months showed an increase of basically on a like-for-like basis of 6%, while the total increase accounted for 19%. In terms of profitability, the EBITDA is almost around EUR 55 million, at 22.2%, that's 22.7% of prior year. On a like-for-like basis, is in slight decline as during Q3, especially, we have seen some revenue, especially in Cyber Security and Innovation market, we said that it's going to move in the last quarter of the year. Definitely, Q4 for Cyber Security and IMS is the most important quarter of the year, and even more is going to be this year. Nonrecurring costs were -- about this year driven by the significant, I would say, the exceptional number of deals that we have performed during the year. While depreciation and amortization provisioning are basically aligned with the previous year. Mind you the depreciation, we have considered that EUR 8 million depreciation are coming from the [indiscernible] . So the amortization of the rest is basically aligned to the level of CapEx. Financial charges are above previous year as they include also more than EUR 1 million increase amount driven by the better results delivered by the companies of the group, and overall financial charged are aligned with the previous year driven by the fact that group was able to hedge interest, the interest rate. And therefore, we account also EUR 8 million of benefit as an asset during this period. Profit for tax is increasing compared to previous year, and therefore, also net profit from continuing operation. Results of discontinued operation already include profit in excess of EUR 40 million for the sale of Innolva, while it's not accounted, of course, the profit on the sale of RE Valuta that is going to a quarter in the next month. I will move at this point to Page 9, in order to review the financial and balance sheet results. The net capital investment dropped by 9%. This is driven by a mix of decrease by the sale of Innolva for almost EUR 130 million and the increase driven by the acquisition we have done in a Evalue, in Enhancers, in Plannet for almost EUR 60 million. On top of that, we have to include the new leasing contract for the headquarter in Milan that accounts for EUR 16 million. Net financial position basically is half of the year-end last year. This has been driven by several markers. As we can see here, definitely very important free cash flow, not fast on EUR 40 million and the disposal of Innolva as well as the share capital increase driven by Bregal's investment. But during the period, the group was also able to distribute dividends in excess of EUR 20 million as well as acquisition of new companies that we performed during this year. The shareholder equity is increasing of 32%, mainly driven by the Bregal's investment in InfoCert and reduced by the dividend of the period. If you move to Page 10, we can walk through the net financial position. Like I said, the group performed quite an important number of acquisitions that are performing, especially Evalue, very well in the first 9 months, Evalue is being performed in January. And then we have the other deals that we have completed like Enhancers, Plannet and other small that are helping our growth. Dividends accounted for more than EUR 20 million as well as the adjustment to leasing contract for EUR 18 million. In terms of cash flow, the cash flow is at EUR 36.2 million, the adjusted cash flow from continued operations, very positive. Also, if we compare to previous year, it was EUR 39 million. We have to consider the last year, we were able to extract EUR 7 million from the working capital. This year is just EUR 4 million. But if you -- so it's positive, but obviously, this is lower in delinquencies and application of the [indiscernible] level. The net financial position bridge on, say, Page 11, we can skip. Very important, we were able to lower from 2.7x the ratio of net financial position-EBITDA to less than to EUR 1.65x. If we look at this -- the water of the net financial position over the last -- basically last year on LTM basis, we see that the group was able to deliver almost EUR 50 million of free cash flow from continued operation, quite very important amount and to lower significantly also the financial charges. For the rest, I think we are talking about markets that we already addressed in the previous slide. Let's go now to the business unit performance. I will go to Page 15, and we may go to Digital Trust. Digital Trust delivered another very positive quarter. And now at the end of 9 months, the revenue of Digital Trust is going up by 22% in terms of revenue and 35% in terms of EBITDA. Digital Trust confirmed the strong capability to handle the market as well as to handle the profitability. So the revenue on an organic basis was up 10%, and EBITDA is up from -- of 15%. This is a confirmation of the fact that there is a very interesting operating leverage on Digital Trust business continued. Digital Transformation Management was growing 40%, slightly above, we shared the profit that were up by -- that was up by 11%. And especially, InfoCert is continuing to improve their presence on the large customers by -- with a very interesting backlog of order and new customers. The CertEurope after 9 months is performing very well. It's basically meeting the targets that we set at the beginning of the year, and we do expect the division to continue to perform very well also in Q4. If we move to Cyber Security, we can go through the analysis of the results. The revenue is going up by 6%, slightly below our initial expectation but still very positive. EBITDA is slightly going down, but this is a temporary situation. As we already shared during the first 2 quarters, during Q1, we started to increase significantly our investment in terms of resources in order to enable the future growth of this business. We are happy about the increase of the specific business of Cyber Security that is performing well. Our backlog of orders is improving month after month, and we expect to reverse the situation during Q4, where most of the concentration of the revenue and, I would say, even more of profitability is expected to be delivered. So as of today, this is the situation, but we are very confident that the situation will improve as expected during Q4. If we move to Innovation and Marketing Services, we see here that revenue is going up by 27%, and EBITDA is going up by 10%. Let's say that in this area, we have a lot of very positive indication, especially in terms of revenue that are coming from digital marketing for internationalization as well as other ancillary business line to Finanza Agevolata Automatica. Finanza Agevolata Automatica is still performing at a very positive level but not at the level of previous year. Part of the business has been shifted to Q4 from Q3. And obviously, at the end of Q3, we have been affected by the different revenue margin mix between the different lines. Finanza Agevolata Automatica is enjoying much better profitability than other business lines, but we are expecting to deliver a much better result in Q4 to partially recover this shortfall in terms of profitability. Still, overall, this business line is going up more than 10% in terms of profitability. Thank you. I give to Josef?

Yes. To wrap it up, we're turning to Page 19 of the presentation. As we all know, today, in light of the results of the continuing operations, we are confirming the 2022 guidance in terms of revenue and adjusted EBITDA. As you can see, the figures are here. We're expecting around 21% to 23% in terms of growth for revenues and around 25% to 27% growth versus prior year for adjusted EBITDA, with a very enviable net financial position over adjusted EBITDA of around 0.6x. At this point, operator, I would like to open the line for Q&A. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Renato Gargiulo with Stifel.

Well, my first question is on Digital Trust. The division showed a pretty good improvement, acceleration in the organic sales growth in the third quarter versus the first part of the year. Just wondering if you can give us any more color on that. Is there -- is it including any first positive impact from the recovery plan or cross-selling synergies with Cyber Security? Then second question on Innovation and Marketing Services. Are you seeing any sign of slowdown in end demand for any of your end markets or customers given the macro environment? You were anticipating an improving trend in the last part of the year beyond the typical business seasonality. How much visibility you have on that? We are in mid-November, I think that you should have a pretty good visibility. And on -- maybe it's very early. But on the new Italian government, which is working on your new budget law, do you have any indication or potential implication on your vision on Innovation and Marketing services. Last question, following the sale of the Credit Info business, clearly, you have a very strong financial position. Can you give us any update about your M&A strategy in terms of potential market target by division?

Give us a second. Okay. So I start from the comments on Digital Trust. As we anticipated during our planned presentation in February, our goal was to continue on a very impressive pace in terms of revenue growth on an organic basis, and we are concerned with that as well as our capability to leverage the size of InfoCert and the capabilities that InfoCert are allowing to have an EBITDA growing much faster than the revenue. This is occurring since Q1, this has occurred also in Q2, and this is happening also in Q3. The company is stronger and is capable to deliver this kind of results which is a very interesting piece. [indiscernible] is not helping Q3 results, even though now have been starting some major bids. So we are attending these bids as there are [indiscernible] group with other companies. And in one case, we were part of the group that won the first bid. This is something that will deliver revenues in the future years, but still it's a good news to start this -- to have this opportunity at least as a backlog. So this is important. We will give more color during 2023 or during the planned presentation where we will have more information about this. About IMS, definitely, we cannot say that the GDP as it's working now, it is definitely worse than what we expected when we presented the plan. But any case, we are not -- we cannot say that there is a major impact on that, so we can't identify exactly which is the impact. Still, what we have up to now with a little bit lowering of the Finanza Agevolata Automatica compared to previous year, but we are recovering on other business lines. So the revenue mix is less favorable from the margin standpoint. But as we know, during Q4, there is the major concentration of revenue of Finanza Agevolata Automatica, and this is what will help us in delivering the results that we are expecting. It's -- I would say, it's much more challenged than expected, but this is what is going to happen, and even a few million more of revenue could definitely give much different color as the margin on Finanza Agevolata Automatica is very strong. So the team is very committed. The first indication of October are positive and aligned with our last monthly forecast. So we are confident to deliver as expected. In terms of net financial position, like we said, we shared 0.6 ratio, net financial position EBITDA adjusted by the end of the year. Obviously, this includes also completion of the sale of RE Valuta, this could happen in December. Whatever is happening is not an issue. The process is proceeding as expected. Obviously, we will be in a very positive position as already shared with the market. We are continuously working on M&A on the -- with the same criteria we had during the year. So focus on international for digital class. InfoCert, as part of the strategy, is looking for other deals around Europe as well as potentially after having completed couple of important deals in IMS with Enhancer and Plannet. Still, we are thinking that having an opportunity at international level to reinforce the presence of the Warrant Hub will be very aligned with our strategy. For Cyber Security, we are very focused on the Italian market, and we are deeply analyzing the market. And we are in discussion with -- as always, with several subjects, and so we do expect that to continue and to be able to close a deal in the next quarters.

You had got a question on the government and may be particular news on the budget law, it's still very early, so we really have no major comments on that.

The next question is from [ Isacco Brambilla ] with Mediobanca.

Just a couple of questions from my side. The first one is on IMS and implied performance in the final quarter of the year. You have shared some indication on October trends and some qualitative updates on how you think the performance of the division to evolve in the coming months. Is there also any kind of data in terms of quantitative backlog, which you think to deploy over the coming months just to...

Can you repeat that on what do you mean by qualitative, quantitative or what kind of details you want?

If you have any data in terms of backlog for the division to be deployed over the next month, just to give a bit more visibility on the results you are embedding your guidance for IMS in 2022. Second question is on Forvalue, if you can share the contribution in terms of revenues or EBITDA generated over the 9 months of this year.

So in terms of IMS, we really would like to stress the fact that the next 6 weeks of second part of November, all of December, as everybody is accustomed here in Tinexta knows that IMS, in particular, Warrant has a very busy schedule, right? So we do see a very strong pipeline. You were referring to some sort of backlog, but for us it is a pipeline of number of actual transactions that we can complete by the end of the year. We're very confident that the pipeline is very strong like it has been in the last couple of years. I think that you, together with many others that know the story very well, know that Warrant is expected to very, very strongly deliver in the next 6 weeks, I think, that are going to be the most important element. For Forvalue...

Forvalue as we develop the plan, where definitely result were becoming significant by 2022. This year, let's say, we invested. First of all, we appointed a new general manager since July, and we are fine-tuning all the operation. I have to say that now with the sale of Innolva and the move of Forvalue from Innolva to Warrant, this at the end of the day, is going to be a significant advantage because Warrant as being the most important, let's say, customer for Forvalue. Definitely, having Forvalue directly 100% control by Warrant, this will add quite a lot. This year obviously and the following year, we are missing the contribution of Innolva to Forvalue. But I have to say that as of today, Forvalue is delivering results accordingly to our expectations. So I think we will have more color on this business starting from 2020.

The next question is from Andrea Bonfa with Banca Akros.

My question is related to, first, Innovation and Marketing Solutions. If you can elaborate a little bit on the organic performance at EBITDA level, which I've seen was minus 9% in the first 9 months, which implies a minus 13% in the Q3 according to my calculation. And follows Q2, which was particularly buoyant. So just some explanation on that point. And if you can comment what's the state of the art on this integration process we do the asset of the Cyber because, implicitly, it seems that you need to deliver a strong Q4 in order, let's say, to converge toward your trajectory of, let's say, midterm target.

Andrea, well, as we said, Q4 -- if you compare Tinexta now and Tinexta when we had Innolva in the perimeter, we -- it's clear that Tinexta is going to be a group where Q4 is going to be the most important, even more the most important quarter of the year. If we look to Cyber Security is when we look at IT companies, IT company generally, they have Q4 as the most important of the year. If we look at IMS and especially Warrant, this is the most important quarter of the year because the customer has to complete the investment before the end of the year in order to be able to have the cash benefit in the following year tax filed. So this is the situation. If you look at 2022, what has happened in Innovation and Marketing Service, it has been a portfolio. We shared also during some meeting, some conferences we are attending that we see many customers moving the investment finalization in Q4 compared to Q3 more than the previous year. So this is the reason why the Q3 fall term of profitability is driven by. We do expect and the results of level of revenue on October is encouraging. We do expect Q4 being able to recover very, very large portion of these delays. So this is the situation as of today. This is only related to Finanza Agevolata Automatica. Because if you look at all the other business lines of Co.Mark, Queryo. Co.Mark is going up 80% in revenue, Queryo is going up 50% in revenue. European funding is going up 40% compared to previous year. Training is going up to [ job ]. This means that from the strategic standpoint, we have done the right steps. From the operations standpoint, the delay of some investments from the customer is delaying our revenue opportunity. We are very committed that the team is very committed, and we are confident to be able to achieve the results that we are sharing with the market. Definitely, the last 2 months or so a few days ago, I was talking with the CEO of Warrant. He was very positive on different other business lines, and so we are running to do this. If we move in Cyber Security, the situation is that, as we already explained during the year, we went through a significant investment of people. Basically, we hired among 30 to 40 people fully specialized in Cyber Security in order to complete -- especially to complete our capabilities in the tariff. We are now happy about the level of [indiscernible] than sales activity we are performing. Now we expect to be able to convert the sale revenue by Q4, but I would say that we are going to open the 2023 with a much higher backlog portfolio of orders compared to the previous year. So at the end of the day, for us, for this project will be not important. We delivered 1 million more EBITDA in Q4 '22 compared to '23. This is what would happen. But for sure, Q4 will be much better than Q4 previous year. And then we are sure that we will open the 2023 with a much higher backdrop compared to the previous year. We could be putting this way that this project has a delay of 6 months; however, it's not changing the picture in the medium term, and so we are a little bit more under pressure on this. But at the end of the day, we have considered that we are still confirming the results of the year where the external environment is definitely a bit different because when we presented to the market, the war was not there. Interest rates were not there. And having said that, we are still very confident that we will be able to meet the target to land very close to the target that we are sharing. We cannot identify a specific point of recession, of difficulties and whatever. But obviously, the general concept is less [indiscernible] . Nevertheless, we are fully committed to deliver what we do expect.

Right. And to complete that, remember this year was a very particular year where we actually sold one of the most important divisions, which is Credit Information Management, with the capital gain, which is going to be north of EUR 80 million, EUR 85 million to EUR 88 million, right? So in terms of return to shareholders and therefore to market, we also need to consider that this has been also a year where we've been extremely busy with the new M&A, with the projected M&A, with the disposal of a very important asset and doing everything in a flawless way. So as Oddone was saying, Cyber Security also needs to be looked at as a project at least in a transition period between when we bought it and what we expect to do in the midterm. Okay? Thank you for the question, Andrea.

Thank you, Andrea.

If I may, is it possible for you to update us on what's the state of the art in the market for multiples in Digital Trust in the sense that you presume you are looking around in Europe to buy assets in the Digital Trust arena? And is the situation, I mean, starting to change in terms of what the seller or the potential partner is asking for? Or they're still in the, let's say, in the high bracket and/or region?

Yes. Well, we are dealing with some potential targets. Definitely, the asking is not dropping significantly as of today since taking of the SAC. I have to say that for us, if we do see very interesting opportunity and we do see interest in synergies, now that we are expanding our presence also around Europe. For us, it's very important the total return we may have, including also the synergies we may put on the table. Obviously, we are very careful. We will look at 360 degrees the deal. And -- but as of today, the asking is not very different. I would expect that when finally, private equity will say -- we'll be in a position as now, not to offer what we were able to offer in the past, we will see a retraction in terms of [ replacing ] of the request. We will see. We are not especially worried. We look on investment on a 360 degree, how it fits, how it's helpful to complete our presence, how much competence we are bringing on the table and how much opportunity we will have to implement a Digital Transformation Management, also for the company we are going to acquire. On other segments, definitely tracing is there, and we are moving under this direction.

Right. Just to complete, we're looking at the Digital Trust target also in a function of potential synergies. I would like to stress the fact that Oddone and I, we're actually in Paris, some time ago, CertEurope is doing extremely well. We highlighted this both on the press release as well as on the interim statement, where the enterprise solutions are now fully being dispatched abroad. So we're looking at these targets also from a very more strategic standpoint than we did probably 5 or 6 years ago. So that needs to be taken into account also in the valuation of the multiples.

The next question is from Carlo Maritano with Intermonte.

I just have a couple of questions. The first one is on the small bolt-on acquisition you completed this year. If we exclude the Evalue and Enhancers, you spent around EUR 20 million in small bolt-on acquisition. I was wondering if you could provide us some -- an idea of what could be the combined contribution on a yearly basis in terms of revenues from these deals? And the second one is on Cyber Security. If you can provide us more color on the different growth trajectory of the pure Cyber Security and the system integration part of the business.

Yes. In terms of -- definitely, in terms of profitability, the level of contribution of Enhancers, Plannet is going to be not particularly significant. You have to consider that, overall, we invested EUR 30 million for the 2 companies on average, the plan was in the range of EUR 3 million. About one company goes for 9 months, the other company for 5 months. So we are talking about probably slightly below EUR 3 million in total. So this is what we expect from those companies. I also would say very importantly is what we are going to deliver with CertEurope and Enhancers. These are the very bold acquisition we have done, and we are completely happy as of today of what they delivered. They are perfectly delivering as expected. And definitely, the plans that we put together for the 2 companies were quite challenging. So I would say that this is positive. It's a positive record that is helping us to be even more convinced on our strategy to go international. Any case, I think we are working on trying to integrate all the companies and try to implement our strategy.

Carlo, did you have a follow-up? Or what was the other question on Cyber and in...

Yes, the second one was on Cyber. If you could provide just an idea of the difference -- different growth trajectory of the pure Cyber Security, so Yoroi, Swascan compared to Corvallis.

Yoroi, Swascan grew quite significantly. We are talking about not huge number, but we are talking about the growing in terms of revenue in excess of 50%. Obviously, we're talking about small numbers, but still important. For Forvalue, it is pure digital. The first 9 months, we can say that more or less, the revenue is aligned. The point is that compared to previous year, we have disinvestment of [ multifold ] in the Cyber Security, the [ target ] level of revenue as of today is not yet covering all the costs. During Q4, we expect this is going to be reversed and being able to add also this investment to be profitable.

The next question is from Russell Pointon with Edison.

I have 3 questions, if that's okay. First one on Cyber Security, you talked about a margin as of and revenue mix. Could you give some quantification of how great each of those was in terms of the impact on the margin and give some indication of how those things will switch around in the coming quarters? I presume the investment drops off and the revenue mix probably improves. And could you give some indication of the relative margins, which you're talking about when the revenue mix has been affected that way? On CertEurope, the numbers, it seems to be generating similar amount of revenue in Q3 as Q2. So is there a different kind of seasonality in CertEurope versus the rest of Digital Trust, and in particular, in Q3, the EBITDA margin looks to be about 50% which looks quite high. And my final question is on -- you bought back some shares in the quarter. And you alluded to this earlier in terms of capital returns, it's been a busy year with respect to M&A. But could you just remind us of how you think about repurchasing shares, especially given where the share price is versus that year?

So Russell, let me start with the first one in terms of the Cyber, we already had mentioned it before. I don't know if have yet caught it, but we're more than happy to repeat it. So there's a couple of moving parts here, right? So first of all, the more traditional Cyber Security businesses, such as Swascan and Yoroi are growing in line with what the market is, that means double digits. So that is a very, very, I would say, supporting statement that we have. In terms of Implementation services and, therefore namely Forvalue, the situation is particularly drained by the fact that we've invested at the beginning of this year throughout Q2. And therefore, we have a, say, more of a bulk to come in the fourth quarter. So projections in terms of EBITDA are very, I would say, it's pure math. If we did less in Q3, obviously, the overall sum of the marginal, the Q4 will have to be much more important. So that is how things are going. Remember, the projects of Cyber Security needs to be looked at since we brought the division in the 2-year, 3-year plan. So as we were saying, we want to be very confident that the pipeline of the backlog. And the pipeline of business is now more towards Q3, Q4. And therefore, we will start the year in '23 with a much more broader, I would say, pipeline. So it's just a matter of, I would say, of timing. You were actually asking us also about CertEurope. I think we discussed upon the fact that CertEurope is doing very well. It is contributing very strongly to the top line of Digital Trust. The very important news is that we are now pitching the enterprise solutions in France because it is very important that we are looking at CertEurope as a vehicle to sell the solutions from InfoCert but also to start selling the enterprise solutions, which will bring an increased sort of contribution also in the fourth quarter. I mean Digital Trust per se is growing 20% on revenue and 35% on the margin. So we are fully in line with, if not even better, in terms of operating leverage. So I wouldn't really worry about that. In terms of the buyback, I mean we started the buyback for a couple of reasons. It's been going on now for now. The #1 reason, obviously, is to return capital because at this point, it's a way to remunerate shareholders. But at the same time, we remind everybody that we have a stock option plan that needs to be serviced. And therefore, the buyback problem is emphasizing also that, and I think it's fully in line with the current valuation. But I wouldn't add anything else. Oddone?

Nothing -- just maybe in order to [indiscernible] by the end of the year, we do expect that the pure Cyber Security business will be in excess of 20% EBITDA margin. So exactly in line with what we expect. The rest of the business will be even aligned to the margin we forecasted. What has probably been a little bit different from what we projected at the beginning of the year was our capability to hire a significant number of people and to put them in the virtual circle of generating of revenue. Probably, this is taking a couple of quarters more than we expected. Well, this is the difference. It's not that there is anything that is not going as we expected. Probably it's the timing of implementation; this is taking more time.

That's pretty much it.

Okay. So can I just come back on the [ EBITDA adjusted ] margin? It's down by about 2.5 percentage points for 9 months. How much of that margin decline is due to certain stuff, et cetera, versus the changes?

I have to say it is mainly driven by what I explained. And partially, we have -- because we are delivering 90% of services, probably 95% of services and 5% of products. Product has been lower than expected in Q3, and we expect to sell more products in Q4. This will help us. This is the reason why the margin is a little bit -- because when you sell a product with full margin, we sold less product in Q3, we expect to sell a little bit. Now we are talking about EUR 1 million, but EUR 1 million, effectively the difference in terms of margin there.

Thank you very much for connecting to the next conference call. If you have any other information, we're more than happy to connect. Thank you, and have a good evening.

Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Bye. Thank you, Josef.

Thank you. Bye.