Tinexta S.p.A. (TNXT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining Tinexta's Capital Markets Day in Milan. The presentation is about to begin. Let me hand over to Josef Mastragostino, Chief Investor Relations Officer of Tinexta Group.

Good afternoon and good morning to the folks connected from abroad. Thank you for joining Tinexta's 2024 results and '25 outlook. Here with me today, we have Pier Andrea Chevallard, Chief Executive Officer of Tinexta; Oddone Pozzi, Group Chief Financial Officer; Danilo Cattaneo, InfoCert, CEO; Andrea Vingnolo, Visura, CEO; Andrea Monti Tinexta Cyber, Managing Director; Emilio Gisondi, Defence Tech, CEO; and Fiorenzo Bellelli, Warrant Hub, CEO. Thank you for being here, and we're very pleased to have you here in our brand-new state-of-the-art facility here in Milan. For the purpose of this slide, I will go over the agenda on Page 3, you can see what we will be discussing today, starting from an executive summary, then it will be Pier Andrea, who will go over fiscal year 2024 business highlights. Oddone will give us a deep dive of the financials for 2024. I will give you the BU outlook of all the 3 business units. And then all three of us will take a stab at strategy pillars as well as the 2025 outlook where Oddone done will guide us through the guidance for 2025, and we'll have some prepared closing remarks. Let me -- given that this is an official presentation, let me go over to the disclaimer. The company presentation includes forward-looking data based on internal management assumptions that are subject to material changes, including changes to external factors beyond the group's control, management data when presented or identified as such. Business unit data are divisional and include intra-BU, which are instead eliminated at a group level. For detailed information on Tinexta S.p.A., it is recommended to refer to the company's documentation, including the latest interim reports and the company's financial statements. As you all recall, Tinexta is an industrial group and offers innovative solutions, in particular, in the digital transformation world, the Group is active in strategic sectors of Digital Trust, Cybersecurity and Business Innovation. And as you all know, we are listed on the STAR segment of Borsa Italiana. You are all very familiar with our milestones for -- in terms of the equity story, even this year, we registered further growth, but let me deep dive directly on the main numbers for financial data as of December 31, '24. Revenues came in at EUR 455 million, growing 15% versus the prior year. EBITDA adjusted reached EUR 111 million, growing 8% versus the prior year. Net profit was on a reported basis was EUR 25 million, while on an adjusted basis, it was EUR 50 million, still strong. The free cash flow at EUR 42 million. NFP, which reflects the most recent acquisition, came in at EUR 322 million or 2.79x the NFP over adjusted EBITDA, and that includes the pro forma contribution of Defence Tech as of January 1 of '24. Let's give a nice glance to the different business unit, Digital Trust, bottom left, outstanding year we reached EUR 65 million in terms of adjusted EBITDA, EUR 207 million was the revenue on a fiscal year '24 basis, growing respectively, 19% and 14% versus the prior year. Another historical high in terms of margins, 32% was the EBITDA margin for 2024. I think the numbers speak for themselves. Cybersecurity, we grew 19% in terms of EBITDA adjusted. This includes also the contribution on a pro-quota basis, that means as of August 1 of 2024 in terms of Defence Tech. So we reached EUR 18 million and revenues and over EUR 100 million at EUR 106 million, growing 19%, very strong was obviously the margin, thanks also to the contribution of Defence Tech. Business Innovation on the right side of the slide, reached EUR 44 million of EBITDA adjusted with revenues that came in at over EUR 150 million and the margin was mostly impacted on the different mix. Here, I think every year, it's important to highlight how the growth continues to be very strong. Revenues in terms of CAGR, reached 20% from '14 to '24. Even more importantly, I think, is the contribution in terms of EBITDA where the CAGR reached almost 26%. NFP as you can see here, reflects the recent acquisition and the leverage ratio came in at 2.79x, but Oddone will give you much more color in terms of also covenants and what else. On Slide 11, what you see here is basically the cadence of the EBITDA even this year, the latter part of the year, in particular, the second half was very strong and was very -- I would say, the overall weight was around 69%. As you can see, we registered almost more then all first 3 quarters put together in terms of EBITDA. In fact, the fourth quarter EBITDA had a relative weight of 50% coming in close at EUR 55 million. Pier Andrea, will go over the business highlights and I'll leave the word to Pier Andrea.

Thank you, Josef, and thanks to everyone who joined us today, both in person and via conference call. First of all, I wish to stress how important it is for us to meet the financial community during this yearly meeting, to discuss the main factors that characterized our financial performance, especially in a year when and I wish to underline this, for the first time in our group's history ,we were unable to deliver our guidance. Before going over all the elements, which influenced our results, let us turn to Slide 13, to illustrate some key events of 2024. At the beginning of the year, we finalized the 2 important deals related to expansion of our Business Innovation division. The first being the acquisition of nearly 74% of ABF Group in January, with the aim to enter the French market for subsidized finance. And the second one relating to the acquisition of Lenovys. I think it's mandatory to start from ABF and our knowledge that it's performance throughout 2024 has not been in line with our expectations. Why? The reasons lie on a variety of external factors, which were outside of our control. In particular, the political turmoil in France was completely unfeasible and unpredictable. The frequent government changes. I remember that last year, we had 4 different governments in France. The frequent government changes led to significant budget cuts and cancellation and approval of public financing tenders. I would -- I wish to stress the fact that such phenomenon was unprecedented and never registered in the last decades of France histories. All these things put together in a relatively short period of time made a notable impact on the company's performance and weighed down the overall group result for the year. Notwithstanding that and to diversify our Business Innovation portfolio in February 2024, we acquired the 60% of Lenovys, an Italian company active in strategic consulting and lean management. And relaunched our Advisory business, which we expected to become a very important part of our offering, especially in the mid-corporate range where there are plenty of greenfield opportunities. Our Cybersecurity business unit also experienced some important changes with the acquisition in April, we acquired the remaining stakes of Corvallis, Yoroi, and Swascan, and we integrated them in the following month in Tinexta Cyber. Furthermore, we decided to exercise the call option on the 40% of Defence Tech in June, which triggered a mandatory tender offer in -- that we completed in November. Both these transactions aimed at establishing Tinexta, as a comprehensive cybersecurity hub in Italy required significant reorganization effort in order to improve our level of efficiency. The focus needed on this adjustment and the changes in leadership that followed impacted on the level of delivery for this division. However, 2024 has also set the basis for some key regulatory tailwind, which we expect will drive future growth in these divisions. For instance, the launch of Industry 5.0, Transition 5.0 tax credit plan in Italy, which has been amended and improved at the end of 2024 in order to facilitate its implementation as well as the introduction of the DORA and NIS2 directives on the national and the European Union level. As for Digital Trust, already Josef said, numbers speak for themselves. In 2024, the division recorded an impressive performance with an EBITDA adjusted margin of 31%. EBITDA, again it's historical high, notwithstanding the macroeconomic and geopolitical uncertainty and the challenges of an-ever challenging environment. We are confident that our strong brand positioning, our presence in key markets like France and U.K. and the opportunity which will rise throughout the regulatory efforts to increase the level of digitalization in Europe -- in the European Union, I mean, European wallet, the invoicing, will allow us to maintain interesting level of growth, which this division has experienced in the last decade. 2024 results, were still very positive with overall group revenues reaching almost EUR 450 million, or if you want 11% versus prior year. And EBITDA adjusted, as Josef mentioned before, posted an 8% growth to EUR 111 million with a healthy margin of 24.4%. Let me add to that by saying how important it is for Tinexta to maintain a strong identity as a group and create meaningful synergies across our divisions and business lines, and nurturing a strong company cult with over 3,000 employees in 12 countries across the world. To conclude on this slide, I'd like to provide an update on the dividend, which we will propose this year assembly -- general assembly. EUR 0.30 per share for a total value of about EUR 14 million, showing that we keep our commitment to provide shareholders with satisfying returns. Moving on to Slide 14. I would give some more insight on the key items on 2024. Notwithstanding positive growth in results, we decided to react in a timely matter and we have carried out an in-depth analysis on planning and goal setting model to set the targets for the next years so that are first and foremost achievable and that prioritize delivery in the future. Q4 was still a strong quarter on the overall company results, with an EBITDA adjusted of nearly EUR 55 million, boasting a margin of more than 36%. As mentioned before, one of the main action of 2024 was the important reorganization of Cybersecurity business unit following the incorporation of 3 subsidiaries under the Tinexta Cyber umbrella. Furthermore, with the successful acquisition on Defence Tech Holding and the Tinexta Defence, we will be able to expand the scope of our business created the basis for meaningful synergies and announce our presence within the very promising public administration of Space and Defense segments. Turning to Slide 15. I would like to take the time to analyze what went wrong in 2024. And what are the actions we are already taking in 2025 to resolve these issues. We have already reviewed ABF performance, which was mainly attributable to country-specific downturn. Given the unpredictable situation, we took a close attention to analyze the company's order book and customer bases. And at the same time, we closely scrutinize the process application, cost analysis, and resource allocation to identify areas of improvements. Moving on the single business unit, starting with Cybersecurity, the main issue the determining a slowdown in performance was the strong focus on the incorporation of Yoroi, Swascan, and Corvallis under Tinexta Cyber, as well as the impact of the different revenue mix, weighed down by an increase of the resale component. A lower operational efficiency in services, leading to lower level of performance despite the opportunities we will know driven by growing market. In 2025, our objectives are clear and the focus on improving the integration of all services within the business unit, eliminate redundancies, optimize the mix between [Foreign Language] -- and the third-party services and most of all concentrate of the reorganization of the sales and operations departments with the aim to promote and expand development and knowledge of key employees. The Business Innovation division has also been impacted by significant changes in the Italian subsidized finance landscape, namely in 2024, there were known reduction in deductible rates related to Industry 4.0 tax credit combined with the delay in the implementation of the Transition 5.0 program, were two of the main drivers of division's drop in performance versus the past, together with an increase in demand of low-margin activities. The main action we are taking in 2025 regarding this division refer to a shift in the business unit, business model towards a compressive advisory framework integrating all business lines, combined with the simplification of the organizational structure, focusing on delivery and higher efficiency, also with regards to employee responsibilities. Slide 16. Let me highlight, Tinexta need to strengthen its role as parent company, steering away from the mere concept of being an holding. And instead, taking on a proactive approach to foster unified strategy across business units, subsidiaries to promote a One Group identity. Tinexta's key beauty is the head of the group, as depicted in the slide is to provide the subsidiaries with shared services in strategy, M&A, innovation, investor relations just to name a few, at a group level as well as coordinate cross-functional departments such as HR, legal, external communication, and administration and finance. To foster the development of single company culture across the different business units. Here are some key elements of the one group model, which we are putting in place and to pursue for the future. Innovation, which has always been one of the key pillars of our value proposition. Our main objective is to monitor the market for new opportunities at promoting innovation across different parts of our group, leveraging on capabilities and synergies across business unit. Advisory, as mentioned above, one of our 2025 goals is to establish advisory-based ecosystem under the Tinexta brand, to satisfy the ever evolving needs of our corporate customers of all sizes and leveraging on the increase in demand driven by an evolving regulatory environment. Reach, this integrated innovative framework will allow us to expand our customer base towards segments with high growth potential, such as -- such the Public Administration sector. Internationalization, of course, the expansion includes also new potential market where we can successfully replicate the Tinexta business model, especially in the European Union. Integration and synergy, one of Tinexta's main strength as a group is the ability to cross-sell and create synergies across the different business units, such as the concept of Cybersecurity by design, which implies the potential implementation of Cybersecurity services and Digital Trust landscape. The implementation of a single group strategy creates a [ philosophy ] across the different business units, which can be beneficial for collaboration and synergies to create more value. One Group. Ultimately, our objective is to establish Tinexta identity as a unique group leader in ICT markets at the pan-European level with a strong unified strategy across a variety of strategic business line. The scope of our presence at an international level is, I think, very clear. With the acquisition, we completed in the past with the acquisition we completed in the past years, we are now present in 12 countries with 38 (sic) [ 35 ] subsidiaries, reaching an account of over 3,000 employees. Italy remain remains our primary market, representing around 83% of our revenues, but we have a significant development of reach outside of Italy, as we can see in the graph below. This growth in international revenues is the result of our effort toward becoming a pan-European player in IT industry, a growing market full of potential opportunities. To conclude, before leaving you to the numbers, leaving Oddone, I would like to put some colors on 2025, which will be on setting achievable goal. And for that matter, the guidance will be an outstanding one. Revenues are expected to grow between 12%, 14% (sic) [ 13% ] versus 2024. 7%, 9% on an organic basis. And EBITDA adjusted to increase by 15% to 17% versus 2024, 10%, 12% on an organic basis. The leverage ratio is expected to land between 2.2x, 2.5x (sic) [ 2.4x, ] confirming the strong financial solidity of our group and its continuous growth. I will now leave the stage to Oddone to give you some numbers.

Good afternoon, everybody. and thank you to be here. So we went through a preliminary analysis from Pier Andrea and Josef on the figures. But like we said, we had a year where we didn't achieve the target that we set at the beginning. But still, as you can see here, we have a company that is overall growing and still growing at quite interesting base. Revenue came in excess of EUR 450 million with EBITDA picking EUR 111 million at 24.5%. Net profit is down in driven by interest that impacted the company after the acquisition as well as the PPA that we applied in terms of amortization. Let's move now to the P&L. I will try to go a little bit more in depth here. As you can see here, we have a comparison both on an organic basis, and on a non-organic basis. Non-organic basis in terms of revenue was mainly driven by the contribution we had for the full year for ABF for something less than EUR 20 million and around EUR 50 million from Defence Tech that is consolidated since August '24. Definitely, the comparison in terms of margins between the 2 areas are very different. And also, I think we have been impacted by the performance of ABF for the reason that Pier Andrea explained. As you can see on a comparable basis, basically, the company on personnel cost was able to keep the level of over the previous year. It has not been easy, to do that because on an organic basis, we went slightly down, while the revenue mix and the usage of third-party was not aligned with our forecast. This is the main driver of the lack of profitability that we had. But still, we are running at 24.4%. Again, I remind that the impact of ABF has been strong. The 24.4% still is a very interesting margin. And then we walk through the different business you need to deeply analyze. One-off cost between EBITDA adjusted and EBITDA were pretty big because we invested a lot in terms of M&A cost for running these 2 big acquisitions. And on top of that, we had some actions on the cost cutting through some incentivated layoff. Depreciation and amortization grew mainly as for change of perimeter as we included there the new companies, and we increased the level of amortization from the purchase price allocation of the company. Financial charges went up compared to the previous year. On an operational basis, the balance of interest is up EUR 6 million. If you consider that we invested more than EUR 70 million in ABF and other EUR 60 million in Defence Tech. So we are talking about more than EUR 130 million cash out that brought basically by a difference of EUR 6 million more interest. On taxes, we got the benefit from 2 things. The first thing is the patent box that we got on Digital Trust business. So we got a one-off benefit of EUR 5 million that in terms of cash will come in the future years as well as what is in Italy, the [Foreign Language] that we have done on Warrant Hub. This led to more than EUR 8 million benefit in taxes. As you can see here, the component related to non-recurring items is quite important, like we said, and let's say, I mostly address them during the presentation of the P&L. So we have the cost of non-recurring costs for personnel costs that we have here, non-recurring service costs for the M&A activity. The amortization of the PPA came up to close to EUR 25 million. So this is basically a decline in our intangible asset through the depreciation. And then we have also the EUR 9.3 million benefit from the tax matters that I already explained to you. I will move on to the next page, and I try to deep dive on the different business units. On Digital Trust, I call here, both for InfoCert and Visura, we have to say that the performance is more than outstanding. Then on here, both the revenue or revenue increase on a pro forma basis. But I would say, even more the revenue of the growth of the EBITDA, that on organic basis went up 14% is a truly outstanding performance. The 2 companies are able to deliver a strong revenue growth, but also they are at the level of efficiency, a continuous improvement that is definitely making the difference. And it's very clear that who is following us since, especially InfoCert is now is probably 12 quarters that is delivering like this for this result. The company went up in most of the areas of activities at double-digit rate. The only area that has the pace a little bit lower than the past was the online sales and this was a partial -- and also partially impacted the cash generation because the online sales are bringing cash up front. But nevertheless, the online sales went up 1.7%. That when we talk about '25 already some action has been taken. Combined to this was two things: a really strong focus on costs because both InfoCert both Danilo and Andrea, are focused a lot on the cost efficiency of the company with some programs that were put in place. And this what was helped to reach the result. During '24, InfoCert and both Visura made strong investment in CapEx. InfoCert went through a continued improvement of the product usability, integration of its platform, and this has been a strong investment. This, nevertheless, the company was able to deliver the result. On top of that, Visura work for few -- for the last months of the year in a project that will be launched to the market during -- before the end of the month. It is a new project for its customers on the -- with the help of the -- let's say, it's a generative AI-based solution. Let's move to the Cybersecurity here -- let's start from Defence Tech. Defence Tech has been consolidated only for 5 months, but still, the contribution to the group result has been very positive. The company delivered in the last 5 months, a EUR 14 million revenue with EUR 4.8 million EBITDA, definitely, this is not because the company was listed. So it's very easy for you to understand what is going on basically in the last 5 months, they delivered almost 50% of the EBITDA of the year. In terms of the former Cybersecurity part, we are -- the result was not what we expected. It's very clear. The drop in terms of profitability is not something that we were expecting. And there are a few reasons that drove to this result. First of all, the revenue mix. As you can see here, the revenue in Services, that is the part that is driving the marginality, especially in the Cybersecurity went down. We compensated the revenue with some sales of products or proprietary products that went very well, helped to mitigate the results. But the sale of third-party products, obviously, negatively impacted the result. And this is the main reason of the drop of the profitability. We have to consider that the company already started to catch some cost, but was not enough to deliver the expected result. On the Business Innovation, the situation, as Pier Andrea mentioned, the situation was impacted definitely from some regulatory situation in Italy and from the political environment in France. It's very clear that the change of 4 governments in just 1 year, on ABF is working a lot in trying to file dossier on the France, the [Foreign Language] program, that definitely has to go through the Prime Minister Office, and you can imagine where you have a change of 4 Prime Minister Office is basically impossible to achieve the results. As soon as we had some political stability, the company during Q4 delivered slightly better. But at the end of the day, the company delivered a very low results that accounted for EUR 19 million revenue with just only EUR 3 million EBITDA. There is a part of business that the management considering that is flowing into '25, and we are expecting this business to come up during Q1. On the company was affected, as is mentioned here by acquisition, the Studio Fieschi, ABF, Lenovys, and Warrant Funding Project. So the environment changed quite a lot and trying to put together all this company was not easy. Nevertheless, what's happening on the Transition 5.0 is most definitely. So basically, profitability and revenues coming from this part of business was 0, and this was one of the fundamental pillars of our 2024 plan. We had some other part of business that went well. For example, Digital Innovation business went well at a pretty double-digit rate. But what's happening on the Industry 5.0, combined with the declining rates of the 4.0 led to this result. Results at the end of the year was at EUR 44 million with a decline compared to the previous year. In terms of balance sheet, obviously, all the acquisitions we have done during the year has re-shaped a little bit our balance sheet. Capital invested went up to not far from EUR 800 million driven mainly by -- from the acquisition as well as we had some slight impact from the working capital, but this was mainly driven by tax and deferred tax assets that are following what I told you before. Net financial position is now at EUR 320 million, that is after all the acquisition well below 3x, still in a very safe environment compared to the capability of the company to deliver cash flow. Shareholder equity obviously went up because of the results of the year. But we remember the last year, the company delivered almost EUR 30 million dividends during last year. I will go now to Page 28. I think we can skip here. In terms of EBITDA, obviously, the main driver of the growth is linked to the acquisition that counted on the net financial position for EUR 222 million. That is the main driver of this growth. In terms of free cash flow, has been impacted mainly by two things: the first thing is the CapEx. The CapEx called for EUR 39 million compared to the EUR 26 million in the previous year, especially the 2 projects in Digital Trust and especially InfoCert and Visura has impacted this result, but this has been a one peak performance at what we have in the guidance and the budget for the following year. It's much lower and back to the traditional rate of investment of the group. On the network capital, definitely, we enter also in two businesses like ABF and Defence Tech that has a very long cycle in terms of cash collection.

Let me take a stab to the BUs. We're going to start with Digital Trust and then go on with Cybersecurity as well as the Business Innovation. On this slide, we're giving you a snapshot. We already went over the very noticeable results that were registered by the business -- in Business Trust division outstanding numbers, great marginality, as we said. I think it's important to highlight now the positioning of InfoCert today at a pan-European level, right? The company grew tremendously in the last 5 to 6 years, but now we are very proud also to announce our placing with very noticeable names such as DocuSign and Adobe. On the bottom left, you can see how a relative part of InfoCert revenues comprising of Digital Trust management shows our positioning. And I think this is kudos to the entire business industry, which has done a tremendous job. Today, Tinexta through InfoCert is the gold standard. It is a gold standard at a pan-European level. We are the only qualified trust provider that you can see at a pan-European level, ranging from, obviously, operating in Italy, France, Spain, Germany and also in the U.K. more recently. We'll talk about Asia because it has done also very a good job in the last year or so. As a reminder, the beauty of this business model is the quality of revenues. So on one side, you have off-the-shelf revenue, which are, by nature, recurring, 100% recurring revenue. These are mostly, as you know, mainly subscription-based towards private individuals or SMEs -- but more interestingly, I think it's the growing percentage also of enterprise solutions, which is growing in terms of recurring revenue as well. Those are more the tailored custom solutions that they are towards the corporations. Some KPIs on the bottom also to give you the sheer depth and size of InfoCert, 10 million-plus users, 60-plus of countries reached and 5,600 corporate customers. On the right side, a very promising market, $4 billion is the value of Digital Trust management -- transformation management (sic) [ Transaction Management ] market in EU and about $400 million of those are in Italy alone, growing high single to low double digit in terms of CAGR from '22 to '26. Let me move to, I think, some areas of Digital Transaction Management are very interesting, namely digital identity and e-invoicing. Digital Identity is extremely important, that Pier Andrea highlighted the -- obviously, the big news, there's a lot of fuss about the European digital wallet, and it will be implemented by 2027, but today, InfoCert is at the forefront of innovation, moving as one of the only qualified trust providers that is going in that direction together also with the company that we have in France, as you know, CertEurope. Attributes will be an important part of the wallet. That means that qualified trust providers will have a pivotal role in actually authenticating the documents and authenticating the data that will go within the actual wallet. And again, going to the forefront of InfoCert, the opportunity to develop a proprietary wallet that InfoCert has already launched, and we are the first movers in the market. We've seen that also a lot of the competitors are watching with a lot of appreciation with what we're doing in the market, and this will be extremely important when it comes down to the interoperability of the upcoming European digital identity wallet. Another area, which is, I think, extremely interesting is e-invoicing. E-invoicing which is mandatory in certain countries, I remind everybody that in Italy was introduced back in 2018. It is now becoming mandatory at a pan-European level. We're talking about EUR 1.5 billion worth of the market. So extremely interesting growth trends. You can see them are all in the double-digit league, EU member states, such as France, Spain, Poland and Germany are moving towards mandatory adoption. And here, we're actually utilizing the experience that we have back home in Italy to cross-border and utilize this experience abroad and therefore, use economies of scale also in other European markets. All these, I would say, parts of Digital Transaction Management are very new markets where we are, by far, ahead of the curve. Let me also spend some time talking about -- we named this slide from the basics to bespoken, extremely important because today, InfoCert the only probably fully integrated international player that we have at a pan-European level comparing ourselves with big and large U.S. corporates. That means spanning from essentials, certified e-mail, e-signature, digital ID, you name it, all the way to bespoke, right? The walk of services, and the breadth, and the sheer size of them are all tailored depending on the market, depending on the client. And you can see some of the most important blockbusters that we have here, the onboarding platform, TOP and GoSign, I think, need no presentation. InfoCert is a key player, represents also a consolidator at our European level. Obviously, you can see where the geographies are. We always said that Italy is with InfoCert, the #1 and largest player that we have out there. But there are other operators out there. There are operators in all those geographies that you see, the Nordics, Spain, Germany. So there's also another large player in Italy, as everybody knows. But InfoCert has a couple of, I think, peculiar aspects that none of them have such as the depth and size of the product offering, the adaptability and also the, I would say, the flexibility of the technology and the reliability of the technology, it can count on a very stable shareholding structure. And that, as you know, is obviously in hands of Tinexta. And together with Visura, have done a tremendous job. And for that matter, Oddone had already pointed it out, I think it's worthwhile talking about some of the strategic directives that Visura has had, in particular with the introduction and the investment that we're making in generative AI, which, together with Andrea from Visura, we discussed what we can say today. And this project is very interesting. It's named the LextelAI. It talks about utilizing and leveraging legal databases, to help legal firms, legal offices or legal councils in the research of data using artificial intelligence that can be very helpful in terms of efficiency, in terms of also of time. No.

[Foreign Language]

Pressure and delivery. The project has three phases, presentation that we're actually doing as we speak, Andrea there has been very busy in doing that, presenting to the different national council of lawyers. There's a second phase, which is usually early adopters, 150, 200 customers as a pivot plan. And then obviously, there will be the go-to-market, and all the advertising that we will do. So great job, and we hope that there will be a strong opening of a new market, which is great revenues and great margins. Going forward, let me wrap up Digital Trust with this last slide, taking integrated leadership to the next level, four major pillars: build on new revenue streams, fight digital trust commoditization, which is, I think, the pivotal aspect of going to the next level, expanding the market, and gaining efficiency. I will just touch upon the most important ones here we're obviously concentrating on the digital identity wallet. I mean, that is the big game changer and it is a great opportunity for InfoCert, and for all of the Digital Trust business division, utilizing generative AI also on existing product is another element, that can help in building up new revenues, and obviously working on at a European level to leverage, as we said, our experience that we have back home in other European countries. Fight commoditization means also utilizing e-signature in the document lifestyle management cycle, utilizing also certified messaging within international markets, so the so-called GoNotice, very important. That means expanding what is our bread and butter in Italy and also other jurisdictions. Expand the market, right? It's all about that. It means increased geographical coverage. I think I need not to say more on that. There's always time and there's always the opportunity to gain efficiency. As you all recall, we entered into a very important deal with Ascertia. And I think that the use of the so-called software factories offshore back both in Pakistan and in Tunisia, will help on reducing cost in terms of program development, but also creating new economies of scale. Moving forward, Cybersecurity. In terms of Cybersecurity certainty, there's a lot of news there. We complemented the offer with the acquisition of Defence Tech, which everybody knows is a strategic asset, it is part of the National Perimeter Cybersecurity. It is a handful of companies. So it's very exquisite asset. Today, we are able to complement the offer. That means traditional Tinexta Cyber offer, which stems on four major pillars, advisory, product implementation services, managed security services. Mostly geared towards the commercial and private sectors, while on the other side, we have a Defence Tech, which is operating mostly and entirely into the public administration and those areas you see on the bottom. A lot of fuss is all about defense, space, transport, and finance. Market is still very strong, growing with the numbers that you see there, high single, low double digit. I think as Pier Andrea mentioned today, there is a very important element that we need to highlight, which is -- which are regulatory tailwinds for the introduction of NIS2, is a very great opportunity. On the bottom part of the slide, we're showing you who the top spenders are. At a corporate level, you have large corporates ranging from finance, financial institutions, telcos, manufacturing, retail and the mid corporate. Aside from that, we were pairing Defence Tech concentration on the public administration sector. Going forward, we said that there is a complete value proposition now more than before. So our potential is that of going and expanding in the mid-corporate and industrial, and public administration. But I would like to concentrate on the bottom side of the slide. I mean the market is asking us what are the synergies, right? What are the synergies between Defence Tech and Tinexta. We highlighted four major areas: corporate product, data intelligence, access to the PA, and synergies with the Digital Trust. You can see who's doing what, what the contributions are coming from. And I think that there will be a lot to come our way, and there are a lot of tables to conjunctionally put together between Defence Tech and Tinexta, and we're working very actively in creating moving forward these synergies. As I said, regulatory tailwinds are an opportunity. I know this is a very busy slide. I'll concentrate on only on some key aspects. The key aspects are as of January of '25, NIS2 requires companies to adopt and implement cybersecurity strategy. That's the news, the critical areas are the ones that you see at the center of the slide: cyber-attacks are increasing every day, the market is very fragmented, there is a low level of awareness, and there are inconsistent level of resiliency. The areas are on the far left. You can see that they range from energy, transport, space all over, but the critical focus areas that NIS2 will need to cover are the ones on the right. So you're looking at governance, risk management, and incident management, business continuity, third parties, vulnerability, and technical measures. So all these are covered today by Tinexta Cyber, and we are actively reaching out as well as being reactive with our clients, that are coming to us to ask what kind of services can we bring them. Can we actually offer them and some of them are coming to us and we're actually proactively reaching out to others. So there will be definitely a very strong tailwind from regulation. Let me conclude the Cybersecurity, with the strategic outlook: offering and operations, as well as, people and governance. We are very aware that this year was a transition as we said. So we are focusing on improvement of the integration of the cyber services. Now the companies have been entirely integrated, but it's all about optimizing also the costs both internal and third-party related ones. In terms of people, they continue to be the #1 asset of all business units here more than before. And we are focusing extremely hard on sales and operations department, where we need to there, but we are continuing on talent management as well as the training programs, which become essential for growth in terms of people. Last but not least, Business Innovation. So I think we have extensively talked about Business Innovation. I'll concentrate on the key takeaway. The key takeaway has a name, the name is Industry 5.0. We talked about how the Italian consultancy market is still a very strong market, at least in specific areas, for example, strategy, for example, IT. But the key element, I think, is the switch between Industry 4.0, which has come due and Industry 5.0. On the bottom right, I think that's the main focus of this slide. You can see how the deductible rates have been going down for 4.0 and are instead very interesting for 5.0, where they are reaching over 45% and there is a great incentive in actually moving towards those incentives. From a strategic standpoint, business innovation has acquired a lot of companies throughout the years. We have -- the left side of the slide shows how polarized the services have been with specialty -- with special subsidized finance and automatic subsidized finds taking the center stage, as you can see with the large bubbles on the left. We're moving towards an advisory-centric, one-stop shop business model, where every customer being at a private to mid-corporate or even large client can find the service that they need. 5.0 to go back to it is the enabler. 5.0, Industry 5.0 becomes the enabler. I think the market wants to hear some numbers here, and the numbers are very exciting. We talked about the deductible rates which are an incentive by far, 45% historical high. The second most important is the limit of the smaller investments, which has been raised from EUR 2.5 million now to EUR 10 million. So all the investments up to EUR 10 million fall into the deductible rate of 45%. That's a great accomplishment. The extension of the deadline another important element, given the delay that we witnessed in '24, is now the deadline is April of 2026. And then the allocated amounts are very attractive, EUR 6.3 billion, of which only EUR 300 million have been serviced. So there is a huge opportunity, and on the bottom, as you can see, the enabling factors are the four major areas: production efficiency, investments in renewable energy, upgrading skills, as well as fiscal investments (sic) [ incentives. ] Let me close the BUs with the last strategic outlook slide. Three major priorities here in Business Innovation: unified group strategy, product offer and innovation, people and sales. We're working very strongly on full integration and a unique value proposition. We want to leverage our European cross-border presence to work all around Europe and utilize study centers in specific areas. And then obviously, concentrate also on the products that can be concentrated on the mid-corporate but also expanded on the large corps. Let me leave the word now to Pier Andrea, which will go over very shortly on the last strategy pillars.

Yes. Just a few words. Thank you, Josef, for your analysis of our business unit was, I think, very, very interesting. I would like to take the stage again to discuss some pillars of our strategy. Going forward, the qualitative level reiterate what our priorities will be in this phase of our group history. Just really a few word. First of all, I would say that we are moving from a phase of expansion by M&A, which Tinexta realized the past few years, especially at the international level towards a phase of integration. Our focus in this year, in the current year will be on solidifying a unified value proposition and strategy under the direction of the parent company across all the 3 business units, consolidating our positioning as a leader both in Italy and in foreign markets, with the ambition to become an aggregator in the ICT space. Our goal is to address the needs of a wide range of companies and different business sectors in the ever-evolving digital space, shifted toward an advisory-centric business framework leveraging on synergies across companies, division and business verticals. Lastly, but not for importance, our strategy always -- will always be motivated by a strong focus on employee welfare and the positive impact on the environment and the communities we operate in. Josef?

Last slide on the updates on ESG. 2024 was a busy year. I think it's nice to say that in all the 3 different divisions, we completed 100% of the activities, very strong with Digital Trust with 24 initiatives completed, Cyber with 7 and Business Innovation with 19. Now I'll wrap it up to and leave the word to Oddone to give us the color on the guidance.

Okay. Thank you, Josef. So let's -- before entering into details of these figures, definitely, we put together this plan with, let's say, a realistic approach in terms of revenue. And I will work through the different business line in order to let you understand. This plan will be also paid with some action on costs. Definitely trying to achieve the results only on revenue, I think, is going to be very difficult. And so we put together in all the divisions, in all the business unit with different level of attention as Pier Andrea and Josef several times recalled operational efficiency. Operational efficiency is something that is key to achieve the profitability that is into this plan. Let's start business unit by business. Digital Trust, we expect the revenue growing in the range 7%-9%. You have seen that the revenue growth of '24 and '23 on organic basis were 8.3%, so we are perfectly in line with that. In terms of EBITDA adjusted, we are not going to not continue to grow in terms of profitability or EBITDA margin, but these figures include one-off, let's say, the first year impact of the project that was mentioned before by myself and Josef on the generative AI in this one. So this is the reason why, for the first time, EBITDA is not growing faster than revenue. We do believe that this outlook on this area is very solid. It's very strong. The business unit was always able to deliver even better results. Cybersecurity here, if we look at the numbers, like the year is a little bit astonishing. But I will go through to let you understand what is going on here. Obviously, these figures are incorporating the fact that Defence Tech has been consolidated in our books only for 5 months and next year will be for 12 months. Any case, as is in the bottom line but you cannot read, so I will try to explain. So we do expect a very strong growth in terms of revenue from Defence Tech, is part of the plan. It's part of the plan that was supporting our acquisition, and the revenue in excess of 20% for Defence Tech is also driven by the change of mix. So the change of mix that we are expecting that already happened in the first part of the year, it has a higher component of products. The lower component of services is driving higher revenue growth but still very enjoyable 15% growth in term of profitability. So this is the first part. The second part is on Cybersecurity, the former Cybersecurity business. We all know that our business is a combination of more traditional, let's say, IT and system digital solution, like put in this way, where we put together a plan in terms of revenue to be mainly flat but trying to recover in terms of profitability and efficiency. This is the first part. On the pure Cybersecurity business, we plan to grow in the range of 10%, 12%. This is absolutely coherent with the expectation of the market of the pure Cybersecurity. But also, here, we have to put together also a little bit of more efficient operations to achieve the results we have here. The company already started before the end of '24 to put together this efficiency. And just to give you an idea, we are entering the new year with a lower recurring cost base. So this definitely will help to achieve the results. Let's move now to the business innovation. The business innovation for us is we have now -- it's the part where we have several businesses here. But as I put here together, the difference is going to be made, and the plan is on top of the regular growth of some businesses. I talk about Digital Innovation. I talk about other businesses. We have here the internationalization, the activity we have in Spain. The real key driver of the results is the 5 points here. If we are able -- we have been very clear here to the financial community. If we are able to deliver that margin, we will achieve the plan. If we are not able to achieve, this is not. We know exactly how many orders we have to get it. As of today, the backlog is 50% of what we should deliver. And on a weekly basis, we are updating this backlog, and we are confident to achieve this at the current status. So this is the main driver. For the rest, I think if we do operate aligned what we have done in other businesses, then the 5.0, we do believe that this plan is going to be achieved. ABF is a key point of our plan, where we discuss a lot with Pier Andrea on this subject, is very clear. We have volatility here. It's volatility driven by the environment, by the political environment. Definitely now there is a stable government since few weeks or months or weeks -- weeks but still the level of success rate of the dossier filed. And I would add also the timing to get the answer is still not at the stage of here. In our plan, we incorporated a difficult situation until June, July and a normalization of the situation after the potential election that could occur in France, like the election could not occur 1 year before the last ones. So expecting that we are going towards a little bit more normal situation, we incorporated in our numbers these results. The result calls for, let's say, quite important recovery in terms of revenue. We do expect to recover EUR 8 million, EUR 9 million revenue compared to the previous year. 40 of them should come from what we are not able to deliver by the end of the year, and then the profitability should come because costs are there and then if the dossier comes with the success rate, this is the result. So it's very clear what we have to do. As Pier Andrea said, the lesson was learned from the previous year. It's very clear to us. We are -- we have to be able to combine revenue growth and cost efficiency. If not, it's going to be difficult to achieve the results. But we have a position on the marketing. We have the assets. We have the capabilities, and so we strongly believe that the guidance we are sharing with you today is going to be delivered under the circumstances that we have shared. To complete the big mix of what I explained before, this is the guidance. So it's a guidance that still on revenue is expecting a quite interesting organic growth in the range of 7%-9% with a little bit of acceleration. Definitely, what we have missed in 2024 on the 5.0 and the huge impact on profitability of the results, what should come is impacting in a favorable way the result. Net financial position on EBITDA is expected to go down to -- in the range of 2.2-2.4. Very easy to calculate this if you add that we are going to have more -- EUR 10 million impact in reduction of CapEx and tax -- EUR 10 million or lower tax paid. So EUR 20 million are coming from there, and then the increase of EBITDA at this level is helping -- will help us to deliver this target, including the distribution of around EUR 40 million of dividends. So that means a 55% payout ratio that is a quite significant increase compared to the previous year.

Great. Closing remarks, very quickly focus on recovery. We said that extensively, integrated -- integrating recently acquired companies, come pan-European ICT leader and nurturing a one group identity. I'll close it there and leave the floor to Q&A. We also have our business unit heads, as you can see from the picture, so you know who's speaking, who's -- and who's who. And I'll leave it to you guys for some questions.

This is Chandra Sriraman from Stifel. Maybe a couple of questions to start with. Your 2025 guidance looks for a significant jump in organic growth. Just wanted to pick your brains in terms of your conservatism there. You mentioned a 50% coverage in terms of backlog already. Maybe how was it last year? How was it a couple of years ago? Keeping a sense of that would be helpful. And to relate on that on the Cybersecurity side of things, there was a significant slowdown in summer and things have not really picked up. What are we missing here? The macro seems to be okay at least on the Cyber side of things. Maybe some more color on that? What are the key catalysts you're looking for recovery? That would be very helpful.

The '25 results, in terms in of revenue, of organic growth, like we said, it's really solid on Digital Trust, on the Cybersecurity. I explained the nature of the 2 areas, what is going on, on the former activity we had and then with the addition of Defence Tech that is expected. And I'm sharing with what I shared today with Emilio that the backlog is in excess of 40% growth at the beginning of the year compared to the previous year. So the plan on the area of Defence Tech is very solid. It was already expected at the moment. So it was already predicted at the moment of the acquisition, but we entered the new year with 40% more backlog than the past. So this is the situation. On the area of Business Innovation is very clear. If you are able to deliver the margin that was built up by InfoCert management, the revenue is -- so basically, we have the lack of important business in '24, and we have the business '25. So this is the driver of the jump that we are doing. Obviously, like I said, there is the expectation of a jump of EUR 10 million revenue on ABF that is the area where we have some volatility there but not driven by us. But this is the expectation of, like I said, an environment where for 6 months is going to be tough and for 6 months, we do expect to improve.

[Foreign Language] Any other question? [Foreign Language]

Aleksandra Arsova from Equita. Three on my end. The first one, maybe a follow-up on the guidance. So maybe a little bit of color of -- so we will already see this acceleration in the first quarter, is a question also considering the fact that the transition of 5.0, of course, was amended with the Budget Law, but since a lot of incentives are -- I mean, foregone incentives coming from last year, so if they will already, let's say, have an effect on your first quarter. The second one is maybe more on the midterm on the Business Innovation division. Since, as you mentioned, the transition 5.0 will end up in April 2026 and is based on European funds, so the recovery fund and the transition 5.0, the other pillar is declining in terms of total volume. So what next? What do you -- why do you believe this business unit could grow in Italy and also, of course, outside Italy? And the third one is maybe a curiosity. Since Defence Tech is also partially exposed to the defense sector, if you already see or do you expect some acceleration also from the Defence part apart from the pure Cybersecurity business?

I'll pick up the first one. Like I said, like you know, what is coming from the 5.0 is related to investments, so investments in the period of the year, so as most of the business of Business Innovation is expected to be. The orders, we already collected 50% of the order we need to -- we will continue to collect, but the revenue is expected to come later in the year. This, for sure.

The defense market grew because the strategy of Defence Tech is combined. The market, the market grew because the war -- market grew because the Italian government decided to upgrade our budget in Italy. The response of this budget, the most important program is the GCAP. GCAP is Italian and U.S.A. and the U.K. and the Japanese fighter. This legacy market for Defence Tech, in the past, you remember, this market is flat. But in the future, this market have a lot of question. How many budget in Europe, European countries want to upgrade this year, the next year? In our plan, we would like increase our plan in 10% of revenues. It's prudential, yes, but I believe that, in the future, when the European budgeting is clear, it's possible to upgrade our budget. Today, it's 10%. Another discussion is the space. The space have a different market. The Italian space economy have the PNRR for the future, and our growth is about 20%. But this increase is only for European growth -- or European market because the Italian market of the space is only the space economy. It's different. It's not space for government. And for space economy, the minister have the governance -- our minister have the governance. I think this is the question.

Thank you for your question. It's a very good question, and we had a lot of discussion during the preparation of the plan. There's a slide that was shown before that when we are talking about Business Innovation, talking about acquisition, Studio Fieschi, Warrant Funding Project, well, what we are doing here is trying to exploit other businesses very close to the traditional finance and grant businesses that may help us to continue to grow even though this part of business as of the current regulation is expected to be. We invested 3 years ago in the Digital Innovation, and this part is going up from EUR 17 million. Next year is going to be EUR 23 million, EUR 24 million, and we expect to grow at a very interesting pace. We have internally a division that is working on, let's say, ESG, sustainability, energy and education that is expected. We reinforce also with management it is expected to grow also here even in a faster pace. Obviously, the -- we put -- we acquired -- basically, we put together a new company that is Warrant Funding Project that is working on finance [indiscernible] that is going to help a lot to grow also here. On top, we do expect the ABF continue to grow. So it's clear, that it's going to -- there is going to be -- if the rules are going to stay like this, it's going to be a reshuffle in terms of weight of the different part of business. But still, we are working sincere to address the point that, sooner or later -- we expect very late, but sooner or later, we can. Also on this, we are already working now in order to recover efficiency as much as is possible in order to be able to land -- to have a soft landing in case this is going to happen. So we got the point. We know we are on the subject, but it's something that we -- when it comes, we will be not -- we will be very ready on this.

I think we have a question from the audience. If you can open up the line from -- just a second. No, no, question is coming from -- I'm talking to the [Foreign Language]. Russell?

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can hear you. Go ahead.

Right. I have 3 questions, I think. First of all, on -- this is with respect to ABF. On Slide 5, talk about the '25 action -- 2025 action plan. Just to be clear, is that something you are actually in the process of doing? Or that's actually happened in terms of looking at the order book customer base? And I guess my question is you're guiding to revenue on that business now of about EUR 29 million versus the EUR 30 million in 2023. So what is actually happening? Are you effectively looking at the proposals, the applications there and actually just trimming them down to say some are likely to be more successful and others are not? Is it effectively trying to have a greater success rate of the fewer applications? My second question then is just generally, in the outlook, you talked about limited M&A. And obviously, the balance sheet is a bit higher. The net debt to EBITDA is higher than it was. Just your general feelings on that and what valuations in the market are -- is it a bad year to be -- not to be able to do much M&A given lots -- there seems to be lots of growth opportunities out there? And my third question on Digital Trust is if you go back to this time last year, I think you were forecasting 10% to 12% growth for the next 3 years. You've done 8% in 2024, and now you're guiding to 7% to 9% for 2026. So it looks that there's just a bit more caution now. I'd be interested in your views on that, please.

I start from the ABF question. The company in 2024 and in 2023 had the success rate of in excess of 70%. Driven by the situation, the success rate was 44%. We put together a plan where, like I said, expecting a better political situation in the second part of the year, that is the most important. Overall, we are expecting our success rate to grow, but not to exceed 50%. So basically, we expect based on some actions that the management had put in place to a large coverage of the market and the client and to increase the number of dossier to be filed. Also, we are expecting to grow in some other part of business that are, let's say, as of today, less relevant. and talking to some other businesses that are within ABF. So this is part of the drivers of the growth. Like I said before, there are at least a couple of million -- in the range of EUR 2 million-EUR 3 million EBITDA that shifted from '24 to '25. So on a comparable basis the growth is a little bit lower. Definitely, here, we try to have a much more prudent approach. The plan of the management has been, I would say, even more aggressive the plan that we are sharing today with you. And we are following me on a daily basis, calling what is the revenue today, yesterday, tomorrow and something like that and this is the situation. Like I said, the basics of the achievement of the plan are there. The volatility is higher than the other businesses. In terms of Digital Trust, I would say there will not be too much cautious and Danilo can explain much better than me. We continue to deliver 10% growth. It is difficult, but we have this one-off cost that is coming from the launch of generative AI. I leave to Danilo to explain a little bit on the growth of the business.

Thanks for the questions. We are in a [ likely ] segment of the market. And I -- to be honest, we are, if you want, taking advantage of some investment we made 5 or even 8 years ago. In this moment, just to mention 1 number, we are serving over 200 banks in Europe and growing. We have more than 20 international patents and growing. So as we have seen in the slides presented by Josef, size matters. In this moment, finger crossed that we are really shortly saw some significant tender all over Europe. And our brand to date is, let's say, quite well associated doing the digital transformation. So definitely for '25, but I'm really optimistic even for the future, this double-digit growth that we have seen has been more or less always being achieved is in our reach.

Thank you, Danilo. I think there was another question from Russell regarding M&A. As Pier Andrea was mentioning, this year was mostly about integration. So we are concentrating on that. We have done a lot of deals. We did Defence Tech deal. We did the ABF deal during 2024. So I think it's -- Lenovys as well. So we did a lot. So this would be a year where we're going to concentrate on making the money work at this point. And obviously, if there's any opportunities out there, we're constantly looking at the market, and we'll decide on a cases-by-cases basis. Any questions further from, yes, from the audience? Chandra?

Maybe just a follow-up on margins. You're trying to revision your BI's business away from subsidized financing towards advisory. So should we assume that the margins of last few years is very much behind us and there's a new reset of margin expectations going forward? And on a related note, Digital Trust, I understand that you're investing on GenAI this year. What are the medium-term margin expectations for Digital Trust?

Margin expectation for Digital Trust in 2025, I expect it to aligned with the peak, historical peak. I'm trying to say what Josef is saying. So we are going to keep the historical peak. But I know that Danilo is working very hard on the subject. So on this -- to be honest with you, I think that trying to keep that level of margin, also because it's combined with a very high level of cash conversion, is very important to us. If we are talking about the margin on Business Innovation, for sure, what's happened in terms of margin in the past, driven by the mix, it's difficult to keep in terms of EBITDA margin. In terms of absolute value, we are enlarging our offer, adding some other businesses. So we do expect in absolute term, at least for '26, not to be impacted. And in '27, let's say, we do expect that the continued growth of other businesses will help us to continue to grow. But again, driven by the volatility of this market and what is going on, this is the strategy. It's very clear. We enlarge our offering. We will continue to enlarge the offer and the feedback from the market are definitely positive.

Do you have any other questions? Yes, Andrea? So Pier Andrea stepped away because he had another meeting, so we'll see Pier Andrea later. Take you, Andrea.

Okay. Very quickly on overall on the group, in particular Business Innovation. We know that you are now very back ended in terms of profitability in the last quarter. Will this year be more or less the same or even be less, a little bit more? And as far as Business Innovation is concerned, the comparison basis, in this year, first quarter, second quarter would be very favorable. Should we see some sign of recovery, although these are not important quarters?

Right. What do you say -- last year, it has been a weak Q1. This is the...

Exactly. So you've got advantage of having an easy comparable basis. You already anticipated first half is not going to be exciting, but we will see anyway some improvement compared to last year.

In Italy, the 5.0 is not changing the picture in Q1. That's for sure. In ABF, should be better. Should be better but again, like Josef showed to you, is a business where we have a solid foundation for achieving the plan. But still, the most part of the profit is coming from the second half of the year. And again, Andrea, as we are talking about small numbers, if I'm going to deliver EUR 4 million or EUR 5 million, I can tell you I'm growing 25%. But at the end of the day, still EUR 1 million EBITDA out of EUR 6 million that I have to deliver, so obviously, it's very important to start well, and they know how frequently we are speaking every week on the results of the company. But again, we have our own plan. We have our action. I'm more focused on the action. If we are delivering the action on costs that we are going to do the revenue that we will put in the plan, exclude ABF, should be very solid. That's the point. You know us since many years. Definitely, the growth rate here, despite of the additional Defence Tech, that is boosting significantly, is definitely the most prudent you have seen since ever. And I feel that not most prudent, most realistic, I would say.

Maybe to add one comment on 5.0, since you asked, Andrea, 5.0 is a great opportunity, but it takes time to put around to actually carry forward the activities. So we're very busy already in proactively reaching out to clients, reaching -- and clients reaching out to us, identifying the need and then bringing a filing onboard. But it will take time. So it's not something that will be on/off, but it's more spread out through the year. Any other questions from the audience? Well, there are no more. Thank you very much. There are refreshments, so you can use the refreshment part, and thank you for coming. Bye.

Thank you. Bye.