Titagarh Rail Systems Limited (TITAGARH) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to investor update conference call of Titagarh Wagons Limited hosted by ICICI Securities. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Aashna from ICICI Securities. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.

Thank you, Michelle, and good day, everyone. On behalf of ICICI Securities, I would like to welcome you all for the investor update call of Titagarh Wagons Limited. The management today is being represented by Mr. Umesh Chowdhary, Vice Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Anil Agarwal, Director of Finance; and Mr. Saurav Singhania, Group Financial Controller. We will start the call with the opening remarks from the management, post which we will have the Q&A session. I would now like to hand over the call to Mr. Chowdhary for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, ma'am. A very good afternoon, everybody, and thank you very much for joining this update call. I'm very pleased to have this call because we wanted to share a very important development that has taken place for the company, as was announced a couple of months ago that we had signed an agreement with the Government of Italy to come in as an equity partner, which was subject to certain approvals, regulatory and statutory approvals. On receipt of those approvals, last week on Thursday, the deal got finalized. And the Government of Italy, through its investment firm, Invitalia, and the private equity firm based in UAE, Hawk Eye, have invested in a total of EUR 14.5 million as primary infusion into Titagarh Firema. The promoters and shareholders have also infused EUR 5.5 million as a part of this agreement. So the total recapitalization that has taken place up Titagarh Firema has been to the tune of EUR 20 million. As a result of this, the equity base of Firema, Titagarh Firema, has increased from EUR 13 million to EUR 33 million, which is -- which has resulted in improving the liquidity position, but also the entire ratios of the company. The investment of Invitalia, particularly, does not only bring in the required capital, but also is extremely important because most of the customers for the Italian company is the Government of Italy, one of the arms of the Government of Italy or the other. And it brings in a huge amount of strategic advantage particularly for a company like us, which is a foreign company and operating in a foreign jurisdiction, to have the Government of Italy on our side of the table. It's going to be, and we are already seeing some of it, a big advantage to achieve the target. The target for the company is to get to a production of 20 cars per month, which would mean 240, 250 cars per annum. The average selling price of a car in Italy is about -- in Europe is between EUR 1.6 million to EUR 2 million. So the company has the potential in the next 3, 4 years to reach the full-scale operation and the -- having the Government of Italy as a shareholder would support in a very big way this target of the company. In terms of the Indian operations, how this investment impacts the Indian operations, I'd like to give a little overview. The -- one of the reasons for -- or one of the rationale for investment from India into Titagarh Firema, that is the Italian company, was for Titagarh Wagons to be able to enter into the passenger rolling stock business in India, the metro, the semi-high speed and all these other trains. Titagarh Wagons has produced EMUs and MEMUs in the past, but had not -- did not have the credentials, qualifications or the technology as well as the manufacturing know-how for making modern metro trains or semi high-speed, high-speed trains. With the acquisition of Titagarh Firema or Firema, we have been able to get all of this. And as you are aware, we were able to win the contract of Pune Metro, where out of 102 coaches, 9 coaches came from Italy, and the balance 93 coaches are being produced in India. The production is already on -- in full swing. We have supplied 8 trains up until now, and we would be supplying another 2 trains. 8 trains, including the 3 of Italy, and another 2 would be supplied this month. So the production is going on very smoothly. The entire transfer of technology and transfer of manufacturing into our Indian facility has been completed. In addition to that, we were able to sign the contract with CRRC for supplying stainless steel cars to the Bangalore Metro. This enables Titagarh Wagons to be the only company in India to have the technology and the capability to produce both stainless steel as well as aluminum metro. And our current capacity, the capacity that we intend in the first phase, is about 250 cars again over here and to be enhanced to 450 cars over a period of time. The Indian company, that is Titagarh Wagons, is able to qualify most of the Indian tenders. However, in very large tenders in India, we have been and we would continue to participate in consortium with Titagarh Firema. In terms of the technology designs available, the design center of Italy and the design center of India work under very close cooperation with each other. We have a long-term, 10-year cooperation agreement which is further extendable, which was signed about 2 or 3 years ago, which inter-align, includes the joint working for projects both in Italy and India and worldwide. So as such, while the 2 companies would now work on an independent basis, they would continue to complement each other and take advantage of the synergy of the other company. In terms of financial accounting and reporting, as a result of this equity infusion, Titagarh Firema ceases to be a subsidiary of Titagarh Wagons. On one side, the revenue that has been on the consolidated basis would definitely come down because the revenues, the top line of the company, which was reported whether in March '22 or June '22 or even before, was including the consolidation of the sales of Titagarh Firema. However, because of the legacy contracts, the problem of COVID and so on, the results -- the bottom line of Titagarh Firema had been a drag on the consolidated results of Titagarh Wagons. Apart from that, in terms of the balance sheet consolidation, there would not be any balance sheet consolidation. There would be only a profit and loss consolidation to the extent of the percentage of ownership of Titagarh Wagons, which is 49%. In terms of balance sheet consolidation, India has very little minimal debt, whereas Italy worked in a completely different geography where debt costs are very different. Therefore, the consolidated balance sheet of the 2 entities used to consolidate 2 completely diverse geographies, which follow different norms of financial management prudence and, therefore, was -- is presenting a distorted picture of the consolidated balance sheet. Going forward, due to this deconsolidation, this balance sheet presentation of Titagarh Wagons would be on a stand-alone basis, and the balance sheet numbers would not get consolidated. And that would automatically improve the ratios, the balance sheet ratios of Titagarh Wagons going forward. All in all, we feel very happy and very elated that the Government of Italy, which is a sovereign, have considered Titagarh Firema as a worthy investment. It is not very often that one sees that a sovereign invests into a private sector company to acquire a minority stake and that, too, a company owned by a foreigner, which has happened in this case. So this is a very strong validation of the potential of the project, but also of the Titagarh brand. And we thank the Government of Italy, the private equity investor, and we believe that this would be a very important turning point for the company in Italy, for Titagarh Firema in Italy. So with those words, I'm happy to take any questions. I hope I've been able to cover the salient features of this development in a nutshell. But I'm happy to dive deep and answer any questions that may be possible for me to answer. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of [ Chinmay Opaden ] from Moneybee Investment Advisors Private Limited.

So sir, I just want to ask the cash that has been infused in the Italy subsidiary, how is that going to be used? If you could shed some light on that.

Yes, sure, ma'am. The cash that has been infused into the Italian subsidiary would be used for the stabilization of the operations of the company. As I mentioned that we would target to get to a production level of 20 cars per month. Now the average production is hardly 2, 3 cars per month. The target is that within the next year, we should reach -- within 1 year, we should come to 10 cars and then grow it gradually to 20 cars over the next 3, 4 years. So one of the utilization would be this. And the second is to stabilize. We have an order book, including framework contracts, of about EUR 500 million. We also signed a contract with the Lazio region recently. So the cash would be utilized to support the working capital needs for execution of these contracts.

All right. And how is TWL financed? Are there equity infusions?

TWL has very little debt on its books. So the entire -- as of now, the entire equity that has been infused or that is sitting in the books of TWL is by its own internal accruals primarily.

All right. And when do you expect the breakeven?

We were -- we are expecting EBITDA breakeven this year. Although we were expecting certain developments to happen earlier, but they took a little time, but we would try to reach EBITDA breakeven this year and the PAT breakeven or net breakeven the following year.

All right. This is -- you are telling on a full year basis?

That's right.

The next question is from the line of [ Vishal Zaveri ] from [ Crown Capital ].

Sir, I just wanted to ask regarding our domestic order book. So we've received the mega order from railways. So how do we foresee the current landscape in India? Like, if the railway is under a huge investment cycle, so do we foresee any other bigger orders coming our way during this year or next year? Have we bidded for some new orders? Can we -- could you throw some light on that?

Sure. We -- so in terms of the railway wagon demand, the railways have placed an order for 3 years. We understand that the railways also have further requirements. The total orders that they have placed is about 70,000 wagons. Unconfirmed reports based on newspapers say that the railways have a planned acquisition of 300,000 wagons. So we believe it is a long way to go. The railways would require additional wagons going forward, and we are ramping up our capacity continuously. In terms of the metro space, there are many tenders that are there in the metro field. We have been qualifying and participating in most of the metro tenders. And we have participated in several, and we would announce or we would come back to you about them as and when we are able to succeed in some of those tenders. We would not like to mention or announce tenders based on our participation because participation is only the first aspect of it. And there is -- there are several thousands of competition that have to be gone through. So we would not like to announce the participation of tenders. But whenever we do, then we will come back to you. But suffice to say that the pipeline, both in terms of the tender participated and the tenders expected, is very strong.

Okay. So sir, sorry, but this INR 3 lakh per wagon, are we expecting over a period of next 5 years, 6 years? Or the next 2, 3 years during -- because elections are also coming up, so it will be in the recent phase, correct?

We cannot say that because this is based on, as I said, unconfirmed newspaper reports and different reports and discussions that we've had, that we've been given to understand that the railways are looking at this kind of a number.

Okay. And just one more question, sir, if I may. So how -- if new additional orders, how will that affect our current capacity? We are -- how much of current capacity are we utilizing? And once we start servicing the big railway order, how much would we need? So will we be able to observe new orders because a significant portion would be blocked for some time?

No, we have started executing the order that we got from the railways. The order execution has already started. So we don't see that to be a challenge.

Okay, so capacity is not a constraint. Okay. Yes. That's it from my side. All the best, sir.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Anurag Patil from Roha Asset Managers.

Sir, currently, in the Italy business, are we facing any disruption due to energy issues, et cetera?

So we are not facing any disruptions, but definitely, the energy costs have gone up quite a bit. We need to see what happens during the winter for the gas availability and the gas costs. But yes, energy and gas is a big challenge in Europe.

Okay, okay. So in the winter, again, I mean, is there a possibility that our products can be affected or only the cost can go up for us?

We expect that the cost will be only the kind of criteria, but production should not get affected.

Okay, okay. And sir, I mean considering if the costs go up, still, we will be able to break even at EBITDA? Are we comfortable on that side or it remains to be seen?

Energy cost is not a very significant cost, but yes, it is an important factor. European kind of geography has been undergoing several challenges, as we all know, whether it is depletion of the euro currency, whether it is the energy crisis, the aftermath of COVID, et cetera, et cetera. Also, there is political uncertainty in Italy because there is an election coming up later this month. So these challenges are always there, and one cannot say anything about them because they are very uncertain. And if something of a force majeure nature happens, they're very difficult, if not impossible, to be predicted. And -- but what we can say is that to have the Government of Italy as a partner, in fact, one of the reasons why we really were very keen to have them as a partner is because many of these uncertainties get hedged. The risk of these uncertainties get mitigated and hedged by having the government as a partner on your side of the table.

Okay, sir. And sir, can you elaborate on your CapEx plan for current year and next 2 to 3 years?

We have already announced that including the CapEx that we have incurred in the last couple of years, the total CapEx across our 3 businesses that we are looking over the next 5 years is about INR 1,000 crores. Out of this, we would have already spent about 25%, 30% in the last 2, 3 years. And this is something that we would be spending based on the targeted capacity that we have to reach. Our objective and our aim has always been to be very conscious and very careful in putting money on the CapEx. And we would only put money on a very objective and a very careful manner.

Okay. And one last question, sir. On the domestic business side, are the margins different in passenger rolling business versus the freight business?

On a blended basis, they come to between 8% and 10%. I would say that on contract by contract, segment by segment, they do vary. But as we have always given a guidance that our EBITDA margin in the Indian business would be around 8% to 10%. And our endeavor is always to keep it at the higher end of the spectrum.

The next question is from the line of [ Karan Mehta ] from Nirzar Securities.

I have just a couple of questions revolving around our Italian operations. So what's the execution period of the current order book in Italy? And secondly, what's the status of negotiation of payment terms with our creditors in the Italian operations?

The execution cycle of the existing order varies between 3 to 4 years. So some of the orders that we have are framework contracts, so they have not yet been entirely released. They would be released as we progress in the execution of them. So I would say over -- on an average, 4 years would be the fair time for the execution of the existing contracts. Having said that, there are new contracts also that we are now negotiating and we are bidding for, and we are hopeful that we will be successful in some of them. In terms of the negotiation with the suppliers, more or less, we've been able to achieve the entire negotiation. Now with the recapitalization and the improvement of the cash flow, we do not see that as a challenge, and we should be able to overcome that issue completely within a few weeks.

Okay. Okay. And sir, if I can squeeze in one more question. So what's the opportunity that we see in metro and defense segment for the next 1 to 2 years?

On metro segment, we see a very large opportunity. The Tier 1 and Tier 2 cities are all going for metros, and this is a very big opportunity. For the defense, while we are present on the defense side, we have not participated in any very large tenders. So we are -- our strategy is that while we have these 3 business verticals, the first one is the mature one, which is our freight; the second one is what we are focusing now in a greater proportion, which is transit and propulsion, to stabilize and mature that business; and the third one is like an incubation business, we have an order book of about INR 400 crores, INR 450 crores on the shipbuilding, bridges and defense. And this is a business that we will look at propelling once we've been able to complete the resource allocation, whether it is fund resources or time resources, to the second business.

The next question is from the line of [ Hemant ], an individual investor.

If I got right from the opening remarks, the Italian Firema company, it ceases to be a subsidiary of the company of the main company, that is Titagarh Wagons Limited, and the results and all will not be consolidated into Titagarh Wagons, right?

It will not be consolidated as a subsidiary, but it will be consolidated. Only the P&L will be consolidated on a percentage of ownership method.

Yes, under equity method accounting, associate accounting.

Okay, okay, okay. Sir, one more thing. Like the margin, you have already guided 8% to 10%. What kind of revenue are you targeting for FY '23 and FY '24, if you can guide us?

So we've not disclosed or we've not given any -- issued any guidance for the revenue, but we have an order book of about INR 10,000 crores. Most of the contracts are to be executed over 3 years, so that gives a fair idea of how we are targeting. Of course, it's not going to be equated, but we are definitely targeting to achieve the delivery time lines that have been stipulated by the clients.

So INR 10,000 crores in next 3 years, right?

That's right.

The next question is from the line of Tushar Sarda from Athena Investments.

I had 2 questions. So who will have management control of Firema? And does it stay with you? Or government will also participate in the management?

The management of Titagarh Firema is an independent, professionally run management. As of now, I am the interim CEO myself, but that is only as an interim. We are in the process of identifying our CEO. The Board of Firema is -- Titagarh Firema is completely independent, wherein nominees of all the shareholders are present [ for record ] to their holdings.

Okay. And second, given the current situation in Europe, and one keeps reading scary stories, what is your confidence of revival of this? And what happens if there are further losses? Does Titagarh have any further liability in terms of contribution of equity or debt or whatever?

So of course, Europe is a challenging jurisdiction. All jurisdictions are challenging. No jurisdiction is free of challenges. But Europe, at this point of time, due to geopolitical issues and different issues, offer a little more challenges than maybe some other territories or some other geographies. The business -- the potential over there, the market is very buoyant. So it is not going to be a cakewalk. It is going to be a challenge. But definitely, as per the plan that we have, we see that the unit -- again, maybe delayed by a couple of quarters or 4 quarters, but the unit does seem to be having a very promising future. And the very fact that the government and the private equity investor have also come in as investors into the company obviously also kind of vindicates this conviction that we have, that the unit does have a bright future. In terms of the commitments of Titagarh Wagons, Titagarh Wagons has no commitment to support any losses or any debt obligation of Titagarh Firema or there is no kind of undertaking given to infuse additional equity. And any decisions that have to be taken by Titagarh Wagons on whether or not to put further cash into Titagarh Firema is purely to be decided by Titagarh Wagons' Board on the merits of such decision.

The next question is from the line of Parvez Akhtar Qazi from Edelweiss Securities.

So 2 questions from my side. We are seeing increasing opportunities in the Vande Bharat train, and I believe 3 tenders are already out. So first, if you could guide us, I mean, what role could we play? I mean, either now or probably in the future in that direction, what kind of opportunities can be captured in that segment? And the second is, we do have a propulsion system order from railways at the developmental stage. So any update on that? What is the status? By when can we see any development on that?

Sure. So as far as Vande Bharat is concerned, absolutely, it is a very exciting opportunity. There are 3 tenders worth 400 trains that have been floated. But we understand that this is just the first in the series of the tender that is going to be there. The railways intends to replace all the antiquated passenger trains that are currently running on its system with these modern trains. Our company is evaluating very seriously participation in some of these tenders. The final decision on how aggressively or whether to go ahead or not is going to be taken on the merit of the risk and reward analysis, which is being conducted. But definitely, this is an opportunity which, sooner or later, as you pointed out, we will be in. And whether it is in the current ones that have been floated or it is going to be in the future ones, but Titagarh will definitely be an important player in this field. In terms of the propulsion, the facility setup has already been completed. The traction motor production has already started. We have already offered the prototype traction motors to the railways for clearance. The traction propulsion, the converter system is going on. There have been certain delays because of some reasons, but now we have been again on track. And we are expecting still that within this financial year, we'll be able to offer the prototypes.

Great. And all the best for the future.

Thank you.

There is a follow-up question from the line of Chinmay Opaden from Moneybee Investment Advisors Private Limited.

Sir, in the railway orders that you have, in the past con call, you have mentioned that you want to achieve 700 wagons a month of capacity. So can you tell us if that is something that we are currently achieving?

No, ma'am, we've not been able to reach the 700-wagon per month capacity until now. I had mentioned in the previous con call also, which was about a month ago, that we will be able to reach that in about 3 to 4 months' time, and I think we should be able to do that even before the targeted time lines.

All right. And given -- what would be the current capacity then on a per month basis?

We have already been able to ramp it up to up to 500 wagons, and we would be able to cover this journey from 500 to 700 in the next 3 months or so.

All right. And the capacity that you have ramped up, the wheel set procurement for the same is appropriately available to you?

The wheel set for the railway orders are primarily supplied by the railway factory who have also ramped up their production. So until now, we've not had a major problem on the wheel set. Going forward, of course, we will have to see it on a month-to-month basis. But the railways have come up with very meticulous planning. They have come out with a long-term tender also for purchase of 80,000 wheels. So we believe that the railways are really moving in a very planned, very systematic manner, wherein we should not have problems in being able to source wheel sets.

All right. And lastly, I want to ask that the per wagon realization is close to INR 32 lakhs. Is the assumption correct?

I didn't get your question. Can you please repeat?

Right. The per wagon realization comes up to around INR 32 lakhs. Is that assumption correct based on the order size and the revenue potential?

Yes. So it depends upon the type of wagon. There are different types of wagons. The prices of wagon vary between INR 30 to INR 40 lakhs depending on the type of wagon.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Rahul Chandra ], a retail investor.

My question is that regarding Firema, how much was initially paid for the stake? And how much have you paid as of now for this new equity infusion? That is my first question. And my second question is regarding the propulsion system that -- how much is the total size of the opportunity here? And when Firema would you -- would this company be able to take advantage of that?

Thank you, sir. So the -- we are not able to...

Excuse me a moment, there is an echo. Sir, you may continue now.

Thank you. In terms of the equity investment, the current equity has been invested by the Government of Italy and the private equity investor. In terms of the money that we have, we have the EUR 13 million of existing equity that was therefore entirely invested by ourselves, by us and our 100% subsidiary. We had acquired this company at a nominal value of about EUR 12 million, EUR 15 million. But the total -- as a part of the acquisition, we had to also take over some legacy contracts, contracts that were unexecuted for even up to 12, 15 years. And the other obligation we took over was to not lay off any of the employees. So during the acquisition itself, we had estimated that the total cost of acquisition, including the cost of these contracts, execution of the contracts and the losses thereon, would be to the tune of EUR 50 million, EUR 60 million. I would say that our total cost of acquisition has not been way out of that figure. It has been in that range, maybe EUR 5 million, EUR 10 million here or there. So we don't see that the cost of acquisition has gone way out of our budget. As of now, the total potential for the -- the second question was on the potential of the propulsion. We believe that the propulsion business can be a very large business. We have set up capacity to produce up to 200 traction motors a month and up to about 8 traction converters a month. So if we are able to reach full capacity, this would give us a revenue of anything between INR 1,000 crores to INR 1,500 crores. And this is a higher technology product, so the margins are slightly better than the other conventional products. Of course, we will take some time to be able to reach this full potential. I would give myself 3 years to be able to reach this full potential. In 3 years' time, we feel confident to be able to reach full or near the full potential of this capacity.

Okay. If I might ask that this propulsion system, has the revenue started trickling in as of now? Or when would you start? When would this revenue start being generated?

This financial year.

[Operator Instructions] There is a follow-up question from the line of Hemant, an individual investor.

So just a follow-up. Like, you have mentioned in my -- in response to my previous question, the order book of INR 10,000 crores will be for the Indian entity only, and it will be in a span of 3 years. It will be executed in a span of 3 years. So I just wanted to have a full revenue picture of TWL. So like, as I asked you, you told me that the revenue from the Italian company will be on the basis of the equity ownership. So post this transaction, how much stake TW holds in the Italian company? And what kind of revenue it can get from the Italian company? I just wanted to have, sir, overall revenue picture, that's why I'm asking you.

So the holding of Titagarh Wagons and Titagarh Firema is now 49%. In terms of the equity accounting method, the revenue of the investee company, which in this case is Titagarh Firema, is not consolidated on the revenue figures of Titagarh Wagons. So the revenue figure of Titagarh Wagons would continue to be the sales generated out of the operations of Titagarh Wagons only. The profit and loss of Titagarh Firema, which is the investee company, would be on a pro rata basis, consolidated in the P&L as a separate line item.

Yes. Sir, any ballpark number for that thing, sir? Maybe 1 year, 2 year down the line, what kind of revenue it can be added as a separate line item?

It would not -- the revenue will not be added as a separate line item, sir. That's what I just explained, that according to the accounting, the equity accounting method, the revenue of the investee company is not added to the revenue of the holding company or of the investor company.

Okay, sir. So what kind of profitability can be added? Just to modify my question. Any ballpark numbers, sir? Any range will help, sir.

I've already given the potential of the Italian company. We are -- our target is, in 4 years, to reach the full potential of 240 coaches. Even at 100, EUR 1.6 million, EUR 1.7 million average, that means a revenue of almost EUR 400 million. The geography of Italy or of Europe gives an EBITDA of 5%, 6% on a general average basis. So I mean we will not be able to give you -- share any projections at this point of time, but that is the maximum potential that the Italian company offers in terms of size and scale.

Okay. So sir, your target is to reach 240 coaches per year?

Yes. In 4 years' time, that is the capacity that we will have. And of course, then being able to reach the full target is a factor of many things like getting orders, et cetera, et cetera. But that is the capacity that we would generate or we will develop within the next 3 to 4 years.

There is a follow-up question from the line of Chinmay Opaden from Moneybee Investment Advisors Private Limited.

One last question was, say, in the railway, on the wagon side, when eventually we do expand to, say, odd 700 wagons per month capacity, so in that case, will the operating leverage play out? Or our margins are expected to remain between 8% to 10%?

So ma'am, the margins that I mentioned is also in the last call that the -- while bidding, we consider -- because in a tender-oriented business, margin is always a factor of your size of order and the spreading of the cost accordingly. So while bidding, we always factor this in, in order to get sizable orders. And we believe that even at the full capacity, the margin threshold would be in the range of 8% to 10% EBITDA.

The next follow-up question is from the line of Rahul Chandra, a retail investor.

I just have one small thing to ask. That -- are there any plans for the company to get into the shipping container business? Because I feel that there's some similarity. So is there any chance of getting into a shipping -- manufacturing shipping containers?

Thank you for the suggestion. We have explored this opportunity in the past. We always have -- we always keep an open mind towards new synergistic diversification. However, we feel that this is a very low value-added item. And the price level, compared to certain other countries in Southeast Asia, is not remunerative. Today, on a short-term basis, because there is a shortage of containers, the prices have moved up. But probably over a period of time, we do not believe it is going to be sustainable. So we had decided not to invest in manufacturing shipping containers at this point of time. Having said that, if there is a change of market scenario or government policies and if the company feels that this is a line of product which will be sustainable and contributing to the company, we will definitely evaluate entering into it.

[Operator Instructions] As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

So thank you for a very insightful interaction. Some of the questions -- in fact, most of the questions were very interesting and give us food for thought. In a nutshell, I would like to share that this is a very positive development for Titagarh Firema and for Titagarh Wagons because at some level, these similarities of the methods of operations, of the financial ratios, of the -- of everything was kind of dragging the value of both companies with each other. We believe that with the Government of Italy investing into Titagarh Firema, Titagarh Firema would be able to get its own wings to fly. On the other side, Titagarh Wagons, it is now fully capable and independent. And as the Prime Minister has asked companies to become Atmanirbhar, we believe Titagarh Wagons today is truly Atmanirbhar. And we'll be able to provide synergy, draw down from synergy of Titagarh Firema, but work on a very, very independent and Atmanirbhar basis and be able to grow with a very -- on the back of a very strong order book and a very strong market tailwind, Titagarh Firema -- or Titagarh Wagons should be able to see a very healthy growth in the -- in its opportunities going forward. On the other hand, Titagarh Firema also, with the support of the Italian Government, with the support of the private equity firm, would be able to put in a very strong professional management in place and be able to unleash and unlock its true potential. So I see on the net, nothing negative in this entire transaction and in this entire development. All I can see is very positive for both companies independently and jointly with the Government of Italy coming in as an investor. So thank you very much for your support, for your confidence and for all the questions that were asked.

Thank you. On behalf of ICICI Securities, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.