Tradeweb Markets Inc. (TW) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. We are live. Good morning, everybody. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy, capital markets analyst at Raymond James. Up next, we have Tradeweb. And on their behalf, we have President, Billy Hult; and Chief Financial Officer, Robert Warshaw. Format of this session is just going to be a fireside Q&A. Feel free to submit questions via the online functionality, and I will do my best to incorporate any questions into the conversation. And with that, let's go ahead and get started. So Billy, Robert. Good morning. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks very much. Good to see you, Patrick.

Thank you for having me.

So I'd like to start with the rates business, which represented a bit more than half of Tradeweb's revenues in 2020. How does Tradeweb differentiate itself in electronic rates trading relative to Bloomberg as well as other competitors?

Sure. And thanks, Patrick, for having Bob and I as part of the conference today. I think it was like basically about 1 year ago, our bags were packed. We were ready to meet you in Florida, and it's been a long year. But it's good to see you, and I'm glad to be able to participate this. And I know Bob is as well. When people -- when you asked me that question, my brain first kind of jumps to like what's our competitive landscape? And historically, we've always kind of answered that question around like the #1 competitor to Tradeweb is the phone. We've always kind of felt like that from the very, very beginning. And in a certain way, if you really look at like how much more room there still is around the electronification of markets, we still kind of feel like -- even in 2021, like our true competitor is still the phone. I mean it's kind of -- it almost sounds kind of funny to say that with all of the innovations that have happened and all of the volumes that have happened. And clearly, we're at a unique time and a unique moment where there's all of this true secular shift. All of this change has occurred, and something meaningful has clearly happened. When I think about the sort of competitive landscape and I think about Bloomberg, I always kind of describe it this way. We've been competing against Bloomberg, Patrick, from literally the beginning. And Tradeweb now has roots that are well over 20 years old. The public kind of knows us over the last couple of years, but it's really a company that has deep roots in fixed income and in the electronification of markets for 2020-odd years. I kind of think about it this way. From the very beginning, we were a company that lived and breathed in the markets. We understood fixed income. We understood traders. We understood the relationship that traders had with their buy-side clients. It was -- the bread and butter of Tradeweb was always how do we build execution markets in fixed income? And so we were kind of singularly focused on that and singularly focused on building out our network. Bloomberg, clearly a great company, and we all know that. I think that, at the end of the day, we were focused, first and foremost, with building out trade execution and innovating our protocols to help our clients and to solve needs. And so we were clearly focused on that. And so today, we make a comment like, we are the leading electronic network in rates kind of period. And the way that you stay, from our perspective, a leader in the space, is by continuing to innovate. So I would just sort of point to you a few different ways in the rate space, right? One is this commitment that we have as a company to AiEX, right? We feel like something big is happening. The buy side is becoming more comfortable trading electronically. They're becoming more sophisticated, right? So it used to be phone to mouse. Now it's kind of mouse to a more sophisticated way of accessing marketplaces, right? High-touch to low-touch, now it's low-touch to kind of no touch. And I think that we're positioned in a very specific way to take advantage of that change. I would also point to things that we're doing inside of our institutional business around streams, around the ability to connect the buy side to executable prices, continued innovation in the marketplaces. That's been the hallmark of Tradeweb from the very beginning. And that's the kind of mentality you need to have to kind of create that competitive edge. And thanks for the question.

That makes a lot of sense. And yes, next year, we'll have you down Orlando in warmer weather. But this year, we're stuck in the virtual world.

I know.

So to what extent do you think your pricing model, relative to Bloomberg, creates any real competitive advantages? They're obviously making some changes to the pricing model. And I think some of the intention behind that, from what we can tell, is they want to be able to try to invest more innovation. But how do you kind of compare the pricing models? And where do you think that either advantages or disadvantages Tradeweb?

I used to get the question like how do you guys compete with kind of Bloomberg when Bloomberg is kind of like, "like free for trading." And I used to sort of like highlight the quote/unquote. Because I would say, well, we all know it's not "really free" because they charge for the terminal, right? And now the conversation has changed a bit to your question because they've obviously gone down a path, and I think this is sort of well signaled out there to the general public. They've gone down the path of charging -- specifically charging for trading. High level, I would say, we view that as a validation of our business model. We feel like they're -- we feel very confident around our pricing. I thought I was going to make a comment to you about it, Patrick. What I would kind of say is they're a formidable, strong company. Changing a pricing model is absolutely never easy. Taking a price for "0 to something more" is difficult. I would say, again, just making a comment on it, this environment is challenging enough. You mentioned the fact that we're kind of doing this on Zoom. It's different than you and I sitting next to each other. It's different than all the people listening to this, being able to see us. So communicating a pricing change in a Zoom world is tough. And I would just kind of say that very bluntly. They're a good company, and I have a strong feeling that they'll be able to kind of execute in the way that they know how to. It's a difficult environment to do all that stuff with. We tend to focus on ourselves, and we tend to focus on innovating for our clients, building out marketplaces, making sure that we continue to sort of meet our clients' needs. And I think that we have a strong feeling that if we can kind of do those things, we're going to 100% remain as a leader in the space. And that's kind of the thing that we wake up to in the morning thinking about and the thing that we go to bed at night thinking about.

Got it. And then kind of circling back to something that you said in response to my first question where you think your primary competition still is the phone. So to the extent that Tradeweb has demonstrated share gains in the rate space, specifically over the last several years, has most of those share gains come against the phone? Or are you seeing some share gains against other competitive electronic venues?

It's come a little bit truthfully. It's come a little bit from -- in kind of both ways. I think the big gains have been versus the phone, particularly as sort of the buy side, as the buy side and the sell side have found themselves in this absolutely new environment, I think change has come -- sometimes change comes very suddenly and then sometimes it can come a little bit quicker. And without doubt, we have found ourselves in an absolutely kind of new moment here over the past year. And so I think a lot of our gains have come as there has been absolutely more of an embracement and acceptance around all of the benefits of electronic trading. So I would say that for sure. I would say we have picked up market share just in the e-world. And I think that the way that we picked up market share in the e-world is really through continued innovation. We have a sort of very strong feeling that once the market moves electronic, it doesn't stop innovating. You have to continue to build upon those innovations time after time. And in a certain way, that's the sort of bread and butter around how you move market share in your direction.

Got it. And then as we think about the market share opportunity within rates, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think electronic is somewhere around 60% to 65% of treasuries, maybe 20% to 25% of interest rate swaps and maybe 3 quarters of mortgage-backed securities. So assuming I'm right -- and again, correct me if I'm wrong, where do you think those percentages can and will head over time?

I always think like -- I would think it this way a little bit, right? So in 2021, why on Earth are there still people kind of doing business? Like if I could pick up the telephone and show everyone like, how are people still like picking up the phone and doing trades? The reason kind of is a little bit we would describe it sort of 2 ways, right? Big market moving kind of seismic trades tend to still get done on the phone, right? Difficult to price instruments where there can be a lot of negotiation still getting done on the phone, right? So that's one of the reasons why we've been hyper-focused on what we call AiEX, because smarter algorithms, the buy side's growing sophistication and comfort with these algorithms are allowing them to find liquidity more easily. Big trades get broken up into smaller, more digestible trades. And hard to find liquidity gets found more easily. So I kind of say, like, "Hey, look, that's the key to unlocking on a certain level a lot of this traditional phone business." The other thing, I think we would say, like loud and clear, and as you know, Patrick, Lee Olesky, the CEO, has been very kind of strong on this. We think the market ultimately moves to a 100% digitization zone. So at a minimum, these phone trades are going to continue to get processed and get the benefit on a post-trade level of a lot of these great things that electronification does for the marketplace. So we feel like we're headed absolutely like in the right direction. And we also feel the way that we've serviced phone trades has allowed us to make sure that we stay in that leadership role around the digitization of marketplaces.

Got it. That makes sense. Tradeweb recently announced the acquisition of NASDAQ Fixed Income, an interdealer trading platform for U S treasuries previously branded this key speed. Why are you optimistic that Tradeweb will prove to be a better owner of this franchise than NASDAQ was, particularly given how dominant broker tech has become an interdealer space? And then there's also newer competitors, like Fenix and MarketAxess rates.

Yes. So good -- really good question, Patrick. Look, we're -- as you know well, we're -- we've always been sort of very diligent around M&A. And we've always kind of come at things, I think, a little bit like we've arrived here now in 2021 through a lot of our own organic efforts, right? So we always kind of -- we take pride in the fact, quite honestly, that we can kind of do any -- do almost anything, right? So like, "Hey, if we're looking at a deal, can't we kind of do this ourselves sort of a little bit, right?" So we always kind of think like, can we pick up a network through an acquisition? Can we pick up a bit of technology through an acquisition? Is it the right timing? And does this asset live sort of better under our roof or not? And I think at the end of the day, as a leader, a traditional leader in the rate space, we feel really strongly that this asset is going to live really well under our roof. And without going into the details around sort of why that asset had declined, I would say we feel really strongly that we have the right level of connectivity to make this work. We also love the reality of an order book and streams living together. Generally speaking, order books tend to do better in high volatility marketplaces. Streams tend to do better when the marketplace is a little bit more calm. The combination of both of those is powerful. And then just the other thing I would say is market structure continues to evolve, right? So absolutely, fundamentally, we want to be and continue to be the leader in the rates business, the leader in the government business on the Tradeweb side in the network business. And now we have absolutely compelling market share in the wholesale business. As far as broker tech kind of goes, and you asked a really good question, we think we can compete. And we think the marketplace wants competition. We think that asset is different under a CME than it was before, and we think that we have an ability, ultimately, to really compete. And that's what makes this business interesting and fun and exciting, and we always have tremendous levels of respect for our competitors. And we also have a healthy confidence in ourselves, and we understand market dynamics, and we feel like this is a moment where there's a need for real competition in the space. And we're going to arrive there strong.

All right. Well, we'll see how that plays out. In the meantime, I think the macro, in terms of interest rates, is certainly in a lot of people's minds right now. How are you thinking about the influence and macro factors on the outlook for your rates franchise? And if 10-year yields keep moving steadily higher from here, I imagine you would expect that to be probably a tailwind for your treasuries and your swaps franchise but maybe a headwind for mortgage-backed securities?

Listen, we -- I make a really kind of interesting point a little bit to you, Patrick, which is we tend to kind of try to think about like what can we control, right? And at the end of the day, what we can control is continuing to innovate for our clients, building out our network, delivering technology, solving problems, right? So we can control that. And I think we're going to continue to excel at that. From an environment perspective, obviously, volatility is good for our business, right? So on some level, debates around -- inflation debates around Fed policy, differences of opinion around all of that, movement in prices, all of that stuff in the most obvious way possible, and everyone that's listening to this understands this, is good for our business. In terms of where we may go, I would say a rising rate environment is, generally speaking, going to be good for our rates business. A healthy looking yield curve will be good for our rates business. It's going to bring back sort of new clients and new types of trades into our environment. And we've, generally speaking, think that we're really well positioned. Without doubt, our mortgage franchise has done extremely well in a very low rate environment for all the reasons that we know, refis, prepayments, all of that. As the market potentially has a higher or a different yield outlook, I would say the mortgage business that we have will continue to do really well, because you're going to have sort of delta hedgers that come back into the marketplace. You're going to have potentially the concept of negative convexity, and we think that business, which we have a really strong market share in, really strong brand, has shown the ability to perform really well in a bunch of different rate environments. So we feel pretty confident around where the market is going, and I come back to a real sort of understanding around let's focus day in and day out around what we can control. Let's continue to build out these marketplaces. Let's continue to talk to clients. Let's continue to collaborate. And if we do those things right, I think we'll be well positioned.

So as you're focused on what you can control and as you're innovating, what new product initiatives within rates are you really most excited about right now?

We like the concept of continuing to focus on streams because we think, generally speaking, firm pricing is going to continue to matter more and more to clients. And fundamentally, we're going to continue to kind of run with and push what I was talking about before a little bit, which is AiEX. We think there's going to be this continued movement. I kind of said before, like the phone to the mouse, and now we're from the mouse to something else, really, right, a more sophisticated way of engaging with the marketplace. I can say this in a very kind of calculated way, you do not want to be short that innovation, because that innovation kind of could happen very quickly, and there's so much logic behind it. At the end of the day, there had been a historic disconnect between the sophistication, I would say, of the top banks and the broader universe of buy-side clients in terms of how they would access the marketplace. That's ending. And you really want to be able to kind of service that marketplace and be able to allow the buy side to find liquidity in more and more sophisticated ways. And were going to stay laser-focused on that.

Got it.

The other thing, if I can jump in, is expanding products and geographies in rates. And so when you look at swaps, we're adding types of swaps, where -- whatever that might be relevant. We're adding emerging market swaps, which have started to grow nicely. We've talked a lot about China and what's going on there and the fact that, that's obviously controlled by the government's willingness to expand the market. But I think the numbers are, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's like 3% of the Chinese bond market is owned -- is traded owned by -- outside of the country, and 30% of treasury markets traded outside of the U.S. And so you sort of see that disconnect and you see opportunities as well there in terms of how the rates -- the changes in rates that aren't just about rates. They're about the things we're doing and the things that we're growing around just, as Billy says, innovation. But it's also market -- innovation is also expansion in geography as well.

That's great a point.

Interesting.

Just for the record, Patrick, I never actually do the correcting on the one that generally gets corrected.

That sounds like me in my house.

Everyone's kind of nodding along to that, if they could.

Yes. So switching gears now. While rates is your largest asset class, credit was actually the largest driver of incremental revenue in 2020 on the back of 31% growth. One of the unique aspects of Tradeweb is that you have 3 distinct client types. You have wholesale. You have institutional. You have retail, but you're also increasingly trying to weave the liquidity from those platforms together. What can you tell us about where your credit growth is coming from across these client sectors?

Yes. So we arrived at that strategy on purpose, right? Because at the end of the day, we felt really strongly that the market structure evolves, right? And so again, like I made the point to you, you don't want to be short sort of a very important innovation. You also don't want to be short sort of market structure innovation, right? So having that wholesale business, having that retail business absolutely gave us more confidence, quite bluntly, to compete in the credit space with our institutional business. And I would say the growth is coming from a few different areas in credit, right? So first and foremost, our all-to-all trading continues to pick up a stream -- pick up steam. That's about, obviously, continuing to add to our network, continuing to service that piece of our business, continuing to understand how important all-to-all trading is to the buy side, so 100% from there. I would also say, and we've talked a little bit around how we have been able to connect our suite -- our wholesale liquidity into the all-to-all trading, which kind of touches a little bit, to your point, around combining some of our wholesale world into our institutional world, a little bit of special sauce there. And so 100% we think that's important and that's a part of our growth. And then quickly, the third thing I would sort of just kind of plant a flag around is the continued growing and acceptance around portfolio trading. Portfolio trading, from our perspective, is mainstream. It's here to stay. I've made the point before, Patrick. And I think you've heard me say this on an earnings call or 2. I've made the point, which is it's almost the sort of perfect work-from-home innovation, right? In a work-from-home world, you care about firm pricing. You care about information leakage. You care about a lot of the things that portfolio trading nails. And I talk about something that I think is very important, which is sometimes a workflow can be complex. And without a doubt, there's something complex that we've solved around portfolio trading, but the end result can be simplified. And when you get that right, you're really talking about something pretty cool, right? Because ultimately, what you want to deliver to the client is something simplified. How do I save the client time? How do I save the client money? And you do those 2 things right, you're kind of headed in the right direction. So I would kind of highlight portfolio trading. I would highlight the continued growth overall to all engine. And then I would highlight sort of creative things that we're doing around our wholesale business and liquidity into our institutional business.

I want to dig into a couple of those points. On portfolio trading, is there an inherent conflict, not a conflict, but just a trade-off where portfolio trading gives you faster execution of a basket of bonds? But maybe you're not maximizing your execution quality or price improvement just because maybe you're willing to give up a little bit on price improvement to get that trade done faster? Or is there actually not a trade-off in the liquidity, especially for less liquid bonds that you can actually execute within a portfolio trade reduces that trade-off?

Yes. It's a really good question. It's a technical question, and it's a good one. And there may be some version of a trade-off out there that trade-off ultimately kind of lies on some level elsewhere. That Tradeweb -- that trade off, on some level, maybe lies around the decision-making of our clients. And we're going to present our clients with the best options at the end of the day, at a data point that will sort of support their trading strategies. And we feel really, really good about the fact that we're giving clients these options, and they're kind of, on some level, I wouldn't say they're sorting that out themselves. But they're kind of going through a little bit of back and forth and I think arriving at their own kind of personal comfort zone on this. It's a good question because there's decision-making around all of this. And I come back to a point that I made before that I think is really important, which is the buy side is getting like just way more sophisticated in terms of how they engage with liquidity in the marketplace. And that sophistication, on a very basic level, is great for the evolution specifically of credit trading.

Got it. That makes sense. And then on all-the-all trading, obviously, MarketAxess is in the space, and they talk about their open trading quite a bit. And they've achieved significant client adoption in that. How do you differentiate your liquidity within all-to-all as compared to what else is out there?

They've done a great job with that. And you've heard me say that before. They were kind of in there early. It's without a doubt sort of the table stakes of the market. And so from our perspective, it was like, hey, look, we want to make sure we can compete in that world really well. And so one of the ways that we're creating a little bit of a difference maker for us is by what I described before, which is kind of channeling some of this kind of wholesale liquidity into the space. And we think that's absolutely, fundamentally important. But we still view that as like some version of table stakes, right? That's -- you've got to get that right. You have to be competitive in that world. And then on some level, it's how do you innovate also around that? And so there I come back to, obviously, the strength that we're showing globally around portfolio trading. And also things, obviously, and we've talked about this a lot, the net spotting and the net hedging. And obviously, that's back to like how do you save clients' time? And how do you save clients' money? We think those are still fundamentally extremely important innovations. And there continue to be sort of drivers of our competitive moves in the space and where we are from a market share standpoint.

Got it. And then beyond U.S. cash credit, where do you see the greatest opportunity for Tradeweb's credit franchise? There's credit derivatives. There's Chinese bonds. There's other areas. What are you most optimistic about?

Well, Bob, I'm going to let you do a little bit -- -- you mentioned China. So Bob, you chime in on where you think our China opportunity is if you have a second.

Sure. Look, I think what we've done has been in something really unique. We've managed to be first in terms of Bond Connect, which was the original bond piece of it. And we just introduced last year our -- the interbank market, which, again, we were first in. And that first comes with the fact that we are -- we've created a very good working relationship with the regulators there, and so with CFETS. And that has given us an ability to be -- to successfully partner in a way that makes them comfortable. And it gives us the opportunity to introduce new capabilities to our network of clients. And Billy talks all the time about network. And really what this is about giving access to our network to another asset -- offering of another product, and that's what's so important about it. And we see other pieces of things that we do starting to benefit from that. So we're seeing more acceptance of things like outside of China and rest of Asia, things like credit and swaps and other things that kind of come along once you have made sort of your position -- start to build a position like anything else, sort of liquidity begets liquidity. Well, some ways, products we get products. And so we sort of see more of that as well. And I think in particularly in China, we are continuing to invest. We think it's a really important opportunity. We like the fact that Chinese bonds are being included in indexes, which tends to increase as well that run. And I think that all of that feeds to the -- it's a long walk, because we don't -- it's almost like another regulatory situation but it's the government, in that case, deciding how fast they're going to adapt to these new methods of trading and new participants -- participation. But it's one that we're kind of used to long walks. When you look at how we introduce swaps in U.S. and European swaps and how long that took for markets to adopt the electronification. So we're kind of used to it, and we're ready for it. And we think we're doing really well at the outset.

Got it.

Only other thing I'd add just really quickly, Patrick, is like we are a company that likes to kind of like keep moving, right? And everybody knows that. It's like what's next? How do we keep doing our thing? Where's the next opportunity? But you asked that point just around credit. And I would say like why are we focused on credit kind of day in and day out? Because there was a moment in time, a bunch of years ago, where there were questions. Is there room for 2 in this space? And I think that question has been absolutely loudly answered with yes. There is room for 2. And so we're going to continue to kind of roll up our sleeves and kind of keep moving forward in credit because we think the opportunity there is that significant.

Certainly, that makes sense. And then, I guess, across the entire company, so across all the asset classes, are there any areas of structural pricing pressure in the business? And conversely, are there opportunities for Tradeweb to maybe flex some pricing muscle over time?

That's an interesting question. I think this has been a really -- to say it's been an interesting year is like the understatement of all understatements, right? But let me say one of the reasons why it's been interesting, right? Markets have absolutely moved into -- in a new direction, which is electronic trading is mainstream now, kind of exclamation point, exclamation point. And there was a period of time I think where there was, in part, resistance to electronification of these marketplaces because there was some fear that as that would happen, it would eat up some of the profits that were occurring in fixed income. I think one of the things that has made this year sort of interesting is that fixed income trading has been incredibly profitable to all the different banks in the ecosystem this year. So you have 2 things that have happened, right? The markets have moved electronic. The period exclamation point. They're more efficient than they were a year ago, 2 years ago, period exclamation point. And there's been tremendous amounts of profitability in the business, right? And so we're not feeling that pressure, to be very clear and very blunt. And I think without giving away kind of trade secrets, we're comfortable with our pricing model. But without question, we're looking at -- we're always looking at areas where we might have a little bit of leverage.

Got it. And then beyond transaction fees, market data is another major source of revenue for Tradeweb. It's about 10% of your revenue. What are the primary avenues for growth there? It seems like that might be an area where you have pricing power, but you're also trying to get new subscribers. You're adding new content. So how do you think about that business?

Yes. We kind of say this a little bit in an interesting way. We kind of say like, we always want to remember like, at the end of the day, our bread and butter is a trade execution platform, right? So we never want to get on the wrong side of data around trade execution, right? That being said, the ability to use data to kind of continuing to fuel trading decisions is kind of 100% at a very high moment right now, particularly when you think about 2 concepts, right, the work from home environment; and then secondly, this growing sophistication that I've been -- that Bob and I have been kind of describing. So we're, as a team, I think, more focused than ever on data. We certainly see a tremendous amount of opportunities there. And we are really specifically focused on how data continues to sort of be the engine behind trading decisions. And we think if we can get that right, that's going to mean a lot to us. I think we have gotten that right kind of along the way.

Got it. So now that LSE has finally closed the acquisition of Refinitiv, how are you thinking about the ways that relationship can be leveraged into a competitive advantage for Tradeweb?

Yes. You got to know me like a little bit. Like I like to answer everything like bluntly, bluntly. It's a tricky question to answer only because it's still like super early days for us. We have shown a historic ability to partner 100% the right ways with our owners all along the way. Our general feeling is we're going to have a really strong connectivity and strong relationship there. We've, in the past, done some smaller partnerships, whether or not that was around our U.K. gilt closing prices and some smaller other things. But I'm going to leave a sort of like bigger, broader, stronger statement on all of that for like another day.

Got it. And then maybe an adjunct to that question, LSE and previously Refinitiv owns -- owned -- or I guess, currently, LSE owns the present patents, minority economics, but it does have majority voting rights. In terms of how you run the company and you're making strategic decisions, is there really any impact of that ownership?

No. I mean, look, it's a good question. We're a public company. We have a great board. And we have traditionally -- I'm the President, and Bob's the CFO, Lee is the CEO. We're a management team that has been together for a long time. And we make decisions that are in the best interest of the company kind of period exclamation point. And we've always had a tremendous amount of support to keep doing that. It's been an interesting kind of almost now 2 years for us as a public company. And we have a great board that has been incredibly receptive and supportive of us in a very challenging year. And we all know how challenging this year has been for everyone. So it's been a good dynamic. Yes.

All right. Terrific. I think we have maybe time for one more question here. So maybe, again, another bigger picture question. What do you think is the most underappreciated part of Tradeweb's story? What do you think the investment community has underestimated since Tradeweb went public?

God, that is a good one. Here's what I would say. I think we told the story really well as we were going public. And I think that the -- there was a lot of sophistication around who we were telling the story to, and I think people kind of understood us and understood their story. Maybe on some level, there was a feeling like, hey, market access is a credit trading company, and Tradeweb is a rates trading company, and they're both -- these really good companies, they're in credit, and Tradeweb is in rates. And I think maybe it took a little bit of time for everyone to really understand really how many things that we are in as a company. And our ability to really compete in credit, I think, is something that was maybe underestimated that's becoming more and more accepted as we're kind of putting up some pretty good results in credit. That's what I would highlight. We've gotten kind of used to sort of telling our story over the years. We always had -- I can say this with a smile. We always had sort of challenging owners, and we always sort of needed to make sure that we could make our points and kind of get our points across around what we do and who we are. It's been a fun kind of couple of years. It's been a hard year this past 12 months, but I think the story is getting more and more understood, particularly as we keep kind of posting some pretty good results.

Got it. And I think that's a good place to end. So on that note, we will wrap it up. But Bob, Billy, thank you very much for joining us this morning. And thanks, everybody, for tuning in.

Thank you. Thanks for having us both. Thank you.

Thank you.

Bye, guys.