Trainline plc (TRN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us here today for our full year results presentation. It's good to see you all again. I'm Jody Ford, CEO of Trainline, and it's great to be joined by Pete Wood, who in December became our new CFO, having performed the role on an interim basis since September. Let's first go through the disclaimer and on to the agenda for today. I'll intro with the key highlights for the year as well as recent political and regulatory developments in the U.K. Pete will talk you through our financial performance, and then I'll update you on progress against our strategic priorities before deep diving into the international business. After that, we'll open to the floor for questions. As you know, our purpose at Trainline is to empower greener travel choices. As Europe's leading independent rail platform, we're well placed to fulfill that purpose with over 270 carrier connections, a 4.9 star app downloaded 55 million times and a platform processing over 6 terabytes of data per day. Likewise, we have strong tailwinds for growth. We operate across a EUR 60 billion rail market, giving a significant headroom. In the U.K., e-tickets will soon be available on over 90% of journeys. In Europe, markets are liberalizing at speed with 6 of the top 10 routes having 2 or more carriers. And consumers, governments and businesses are increasingly focused on the environmental benefits of rail travel. With trains emitting at least 70% less CO2 than cars and planes, sustainability is the rail industry superpower for generating long-term growth. This year, the group delivered a record operating performance. Net ticket sales were up 16% and revenue up 25% versus fiscal year 2020, the pre pandemic year. Growth was led by International Consumer, which became a EUR 1 billion business. In the U.K., we drove continued growth in digital tickets, particularly for commuters, where we doubled our segment share. In international, we further positioned ourselves as the aggregator on high-speed roots. In Italy, net ticket sales were 3x higher than pre-COVID levels, while in Spain, they were 4x higher. And as Torries returned to Europe, we almost doubled foreign travel sales with particularly strong demand from the U.S. In the U.K., we're seeing encouraging political and regulatory developments. In February, the new Secretary of State for Transport, Mark Harper, spoke at the annual Bradshaw address. He gave more direction on the creation of great British rail, placing far greater emphasis on the role of the private sector whilst committing to a competitive retail market to drive innovation and value for customers. And earlier this week, we announced that we have concluded our collaborative phase of engagement with RDG confirming our commercial terms. Finally, 'I Came by Train' is gaining recognition, shortlisted for 2 sustainability awards and is becoming a galvanizing force within U.K. rail with new partnerships forming across government, industry and train line to Champion rail as a greener way to travel. And with that, I'll hand over to Pete to talk through our financial performance.

Thanks, Jody, and good morning, everyone. I'm Pete Wood, and I'm delighted to join you today as the new CFO of Trainline. Having stepped up into the role, I'm both excited by the growth opportunity ahead. I'm pleased with the momentum we are building. Before I get into the financial performance for the year, I'd like to discuss the strengthening trading conditions in the U.K. As you know, COVID had a significant impact on passenger volumes and the industry has recovered over the course of the last 12 months from less than 70% of pre-COVID levels last year to over 90% this year. Strike action has weighed on the recovery, however, with strikes every month from June through to March. As we said in our trading statement, the gross ticket sales impact for Trainline was around EUR 5 million to EUR 6 million per strike day. While, of course, a challenge for the whole industry, I was pleased with the way we were able to help customers navigate the disruption with features like alerts and self-serve refunds. There's been progress in the resolution of the industrial dispute with 2 pay offers now settled. To remain outstanding and strikes have been called this month and next. However, I'm encouraged by how quickly passenger demand can return. For example, there were no strikes called since early March, and passenger volumes quickly recovered to above 90%. With cost of living pressures, customers are taking advantage of booking in advance with our value-focused brand campaigns highlighting savings of up to 35%. And the softness in longer distance travel that we flagged in March has now receded. The group achieved a record operating performance this year, driven by strong growth in our U.K. and international markets. With COVID impacting prior year numbers, Instead talked to year-on 3-year growth rates. Net ticket sales were up 16% to EUR 4.3 billion. Within that, U.K. Consumer was up 37% to EUR 2.8 billion, reflecting the market recovery and a significant increase in e-ticket penetration. International Consumer was up 95% to EUR 915 million, supported by our aggregation of new entrant carriers on key European routes. Trainline Solutions remained at half its pre-covered size at EUR 597 million due to a slower recovery in business travel. However, it almost doubled versus the prior year, and we continue to see longer-term tailwinds as corporates move towards greener travel choices. Revenue was up 25% to EUR 327 million, which I'll step into on the next slide. And gross profit was up 29% to EUR 252 million. Group revenue has grown ahead of net ticket sales when compared with pre-COVID results, driving an increase in the group's take rate from 7% to 7.6%. This was driven by a mix effect in the group portfolio with the U.K. and international consumer businesses, both with relatively higher take rates growing faster than Trainline solutions as well as by an accelerated growth in foreign travel, which also generates a higher take rate, in part because carriers pay more in commissions for nondomestic sales. The business delivered a material increase in EBITDA even while we invest increased investment to drive international growth and despite a headwind from industrial action. We reported an adjusted EBITDA of EUR 86 million, up EUR 47 million year-on-year and up EUR 1 million versus fiscal year 2020. In international, we ramped up marketing investment to EUR 43 million. We are already seeing the benefits of this investment as it drives growth in new customer acquisition and net ticket sales. Alongside this, we scaled the platform to manage the significant step-up in transactions as reflected in the other admin cost bar. We hired additional people, and I'm pleased with the acceleration in future development and localization of our platform for European markets and the critical contribution this makes in driving growth. Jody will expand more on this later. Staying with international consumer, we expect EBITDA to approach breakeven on a pre-internal transaction fee basis in fiscal year 2024. As we have said before, our #1 priority in international is to drive growth in net ticket sales and revenue. But as the business grows, it benefits from operating leverage on marketing and people costs. The chart on the right-hand side shows the International's financial profile prior to the payment of the internal transaction fee to Trainline Solutions. As you can see, the business is achieving operating leverage as it scales with revenue up 131% versus the cost base increase of 87%. This reflects our disciplined approach as we prove our way into new markets, closely managing lifetime value and the cost of acquisition for new customer cohorts. It also reflects the benefit of our existing customer base growing in size, particularly app customers who are stickier and transact more frequently. Finally, as I look ahead, we are well positioned for further growth and have made a strong start to the year. Demand is healthy across our key markets. And as you will shortly hear from Jody, our team is delivering against a clear strategy. Group expectations for fiscal year 2024 are net ticket sales growth of between 13% and 22%, revenue growth of between 13% and 22%, and adjusted EBITDA as a percentage of net ticket sales are between 2.15% and 2.25%. Thank you. And I'll now hand back to Jody.

Thank you, Pete. Let's now talk about the progress we're making against our strategy, starting with our U.K. consumer business. Our first key priority in the U.K. is to provide customers with an excellent user experience, removing friction when searching for trains and booking tickets while offering them unrivaled value. This is helping shift more people to digital ticketing with e-tickets a core part of our mobile app proposition. We're achieving an accelerated delivery of new products and features, and I'd like to touch on some highlights. Historically, commuters have been underserved with digital ticket options. We have therefore primed our mobile app to better serve such journeys. And we've already had good traction with Trainline doubling its commuter segment share in 3 years. An example includes our favorite feature, which allows commuters to personalize their journeys in the app, giving them live departure boards and notifications of delays and disruptions. It's proven popular with 4 million customer setups to date. And last month, we launched our new Quick Buy feature, which leverages our data to let customers purchase the same ticket again in just 3 clicks. We continue to reduce friction from the travel experience recently launching next best actions to help customers manage delays and disruptions. We've always done a good job notifying customers. next best actions goes a step further, helping customers understand what they can do. We're starting by allowing customers to check what other trains their ticket is valid on with plans to go way beyond this. At the same time, we're unlocking further savings for customers with over tools like Splitsave. We ran a data-led optimization process to make the product even better, expanding the number of journeys in which split tickets are offered. This helped grow availability of split a ticket to 80% of all U.K. journeys, up from 64% at launch. Moving on to our second priority in the U.K., building demand. We are running a brand campaign telling customers how they can save 35% on average when booking a journey through Trainline, highly relevant as the cost of living pressures bite. These campaigns point to the environmental benefits of rail travel to reflecting our core purpose to encourage greener travel choices. This is helping more people to make better travel choices every day, showing them that great journeys really do start with Trainline. It forms part of a broader marketing strategy in the U.K. that has delivered significant customer acquisition. In fact, over the past 3 years, we've increased active customers by 58%. At the same time, we have deepened our customer relationships, significantly increasing customer transaction frequency. Customers that transact 2 or more times a month have grown from 49% of monthly customers to 49% of monthly customers, up from 42% 3 years ago, with the simultaneous increase in active customers, it means a substantial jump in sales transactions. Turning to our fourth priority, growing Trainline solutions, leveraging Platform 1, our single global tech platform to power online retailing for our travel partners, which further strengthened platform one this year. We added to the significant breadth and depth of our carrier connections, integrating new entrants at speed as they came to market. We developed and released an extensive list of customer-focused products and features, and we increasingly use machine learning to surface relevant products and features to each specific customer. While in the background, we continue to optimize the platform's reliability and enhance its scalability. In fact, Platform 1 is now regularly processing over 1,000 transactions a minute at peak times. While enhancing the platform, we leveraged its strength to better serve our travel partners and position the business for future growth. For our carrier partners, we made big strides in improving their core functionality and customer features. This includes enabling digital seasons and digital payment methods like Apple Pay and Google Pay. And we extended our contracts with Cross Country and Scottrail and signed a new contract with Trainhugger, a sustainability-focused third-party retailer. At the same time, more travel businesses went live on our global API platform. As a reminder, our global API gives B2B partners the ability to offer European rail options to their customers through one simple seamless connection rather than tackle the complexity of connecting to 13 different carrier APIs. And in recent months, CWT and Havas voyage both went live on the platform. Now let's turn to the International Consumer business. 18 months ago, I stood here outlining our plans to accelerate the growth of our International business. Since then, we've increased the pace at which we launch innovation into our core European markets, while filling any product gaps that existed. We rapidly integrated 4 new entrants onto our platform and expanded our marketing activity to grow brand awareness and increase customer acquisition. As a result, international consumer net digit sales has doubled versus fiscal 2020, reaching a milestone of EUR 1 billion of net ticket sales. We're increasingly prioritizing the rail markets where we have the strongest proposition. These are domestic markets which enjoy widespread carrier competition, primarily Spain and Italy and foreign travel representing global inbound and intra-EU cross-border travel. These markets contribute about 2/3 of international consumer revenues, and we expect strong growth ahead. Beyond these markets, significant further headroom remains most notably in France, which I'll come on to shortly. Let's first look at domestic market liberalization. As you know, Italy, Spain and France have opened to competition, 6 out of the top 10 high-speed routes in Europe now have carrier competition. As you can see on the map, there's an increasing number of key routes that have more than 2 different carriers. By giving customers more choice, carrier competition is creating the opportunity for Trainline to position itself as the market aggregator. But not all markets are at the same level of maturity when it comes to liberalization. So we are tailoring our approach based on the respective level of maturity. For Phase 1 countries like France, which is yet to see carrier competition beyond Paris-Leon, we continue to focus on providing a great user experience with all key journeys and prices. As widespread carrier competition rides on a market's high-speed rail network, as is happening in Spain, we'll move to Phase 2, making aggregation a key differentiator for trailing. This includes ramping up marketing spend to grow brand awareness and acquire new customers. As we establish ourselves as the #1 aggregator, it gives us an opportunity to move to Phase 3, deepening customer relationships as we're now doing in Italy. As customers engage more habitually with train line, particularly through the app, it increases our relevance for more of their travel needs. This sees them transact more often, including for shorter distance regional trips. Let's first look at France, a large market, but one where market liberalization remains nascent. Without a widespread aggregation opportunity, France offers a slower growth profile than the other more liberalized markets. And the effect of strikes this year is likely to slow growth further. We will continue to invest in the user experience and performance marketing in order to serve and grow our French customer base, how we'll manage our brand investment to coincide with the future arrival of widespread carrier competition. Moving on to Spain. A rail market worth EUR 2 billion. The Spanish government have embraced liberalization, seeing the benefits it brings in reducing fares, improving service quality and driving greater ridership. 4 carrier brands now compete in Spain. And as they expand services, we estimate these liberalized routes will represent a EUR 1.3 billion aggregation opportunity. It's amazing to think this time 2 years ago, there was just one rail brand in Spain, the incumbent Renfe. Since then, SNCF has launched their lowest cost operator at Ouigo, followed by Renfe's low-cost brand, Avlo. This competition has bought value-focused pricing to the market. The way it's stimulating demand and disrupting rail is akin to how Ryanair and EasyJet disrupted the airline industry 20 or so years ago. Last year, Trenitalia backed [ area ] entered the market. In contrast, they are offering a differentiated premium proposition directly competing with Renfe's traditional brand. 3 or more of the brands will compete on 5 key high-speed railroads by the end of next month. Their new services expanding capacity by 84%. Let's look specifically at Madrid/Barcelona, where there's a clear signs carrier competition is driving modal shift. Prior to COVID, this was Europe's busiest domestic Air route. However, last year, air traffic fell 28%. During the same period, rail fares fare 55% our passenger volumes grew 35%. By positioning Trainline as the aggregator on this route, we've significantly increased our market share. Tickets sold on this route doubled year-on-year and were 9x higher than 3 years ago private prior to COVID and the arrival of competition. At the same time, we're proving vital for new entrants as they seek to attract new customers as quickly as possible. In Iryo's first quarter of trading, we sold 20% of their tickets. As carrier competition grows in Spain, we are embedding our position as the leading aggregator. We're improving the way we surface the most relevant travel options, including intuitive search filters plus search results that allow customers to identify where it's better to combine different carriers for their journey. Finally, we're going the extra mile to delight customers, including an a la carte food selection within the booking flow for Iryo trains. Let's now discuss Italy. A rail market worth EUR 4 billion, where 2 carriers, Trenitalia and Italo have competed for the last decade. Here, we have a strong aggregator proposition with all the carriers, roots and journey options as well as a seamless app experience. We continue to build brand awareness and drive new customer acquisition. We launched our first major nationwide brand campaign last year. This focused on crane stations in key cities with aggregated routes as well as a national TV campaign. I'm delighted to say that we are the #1 rail app in Italy with 13% more downloads than incumbent Trenitalia. And this is translating into net ticket sales, which were 3x higher than pre-COVID. At the same time, we are deepening our relationship with Italian customers. We grew our relevance with more of their travel needs with a fourfold increase in ticket sales on regional railways, driving total tickets sold to EUR 10 million. And this was despite there being no carrier competition on those regional routes. Moving on to foreign travel. As a reminder, this represents global inbound customers from the U.S., U.K. and Rest of World as well as some intra-EU cross-border travel. It's an addressable market worth EUR 4 billion with journeys weighted more to the summer months. It generates double-digit take rates, partly due to higher commissions payable by carriers for nondomestic customers. This year, foreign travel almost doubled versus pre-COVID, with sales to U.S. inbound customers, particularly strong. As we position ourselves as the one-stop shop for rail travel in Europe, we see opportunity for growth to continue, particularly as we begin to leverage our marketing leadership. To bring that to life, let's look at U.S. inbound customers as an example. The typical U.S. inbound customer visits Europe in a group often as part of an expensive family holiday or to celebrate their graduation. They book most journeys in advance and increasingly want to explore multiple countries in Europe with 42% of sales coming from customers that book journeys on 2 or more carriers. However, they're not used to traveling by train, particularly in a foreign country. So feeling reassured is a top priority. In that light, train line already meets many of their needs, offering easy booking in advance or on the day. All the key routes, carriers and fair and a standardized travel experience in their native language, helping them get from A to B successfully. We plan to build on our early success to attract more U.S. inbound customers. We are currently running a campaign to find Trainline's Chief Conductor hosted by the one and only David Hasselhoff with the contest winner experiencing rail adventures across Europe. And we have launched journey guides to help customers feel reassured when traveling by train across Europe. Before we open the floor to questions, let me recap on some key takeaways. We've delivered record operating performance this year, and we expect the momentum to continue guiding to strong growth in the year ahead. In the U.K., our consumer business is growing strongly as we shift more customers towards digital ticketing, particularly commuters. In international, we are prioritizing the markets where we have the stronger proposition today. This means harnessing the aggregation opportunity to accelerate sales growth in Spain and Italy and driving growth in foreign travel, which provide higher margins for Trainline. Looking forward, I remain hugely excited by the opportunity ahead of long-term growth tailwinds and the progress we continue to make in delivering to our customers in the U.K. and across Europe. So thank you very much for listening. We'll now open the floor for questions if asking, please, can you give your name and institution.

Gareth Davis from Numis. Maybe start with sort of 2.5 for me. One -- the first one really on take rate. Pre-pandemic, you talked a lot about kind of value-add services and driving take rate. Firstly, on the U.K., can you just sort of -- is that sort of on hold while you take advantage of volume coming back and we should think of that as a driver over the next couple of years? Or how should we think about that take rate? And then in Europe, as Spain matures, is there the ability to start pushing out those value-added services into Spain and Italy? And again, same question really, how should we think about take rate in -- on a forward-looking basis? And then from a marketing spend perspective, when we look into next year in international, -- are you expecting to grow marketing spend? I know Jody kind of called out an emphasis on Spain. So does that mean you sort of pull France down a little bit and it switches into Spain and Italy? Or just if you can give us a little bit more shape around marketing spend in international.

Sure, Pete, do you want to take?

Yes. So starting with the U.K. take rate. So the opportunity in the U.K. still is to grow net ticket sales. We've got e-ticket penetration has taken a really good step forward, but there's still big headroom. You heard today about the progress we're making in commute. And so most of our effort is continued on ticket sales. We are running various tests all the time on revenue optimization, trying out new levers and the like. So that does continue in the background. And as we get larger still and as growth begins to slow and yes, then we'll put more effort into -- or more resource on to the revenue side. So it's not -- it's something that will come a bit further down the road. And then, yes, in terms of Spain and indeed other international domestic markets, the U.K. is the mature business that we're targeting. And right now, we're not really focused so much on optimizing revenue. It's more about driving for scale and growth. And there are certain things that we could do today, but putting more friction in the way of acquiring new customers from -- which might drive monetization is just not our focus at the moment. Instead, we're targeting gaining share, growing the base of the business. And then we'll -- again, we'll turn our attention to generating more revenue off the back of that over time. And then from a marketing spend perspective, yes, we've got a portfolio, and you've heard today that we'll absolutely be doubling down in Spain and in Italy from a domestic perspective. Those are really interesting and exciting markets, particularly with the liberalization. France, we're taking more measured approach. And as liberalization grows over time in that country will then push harder on the marketing there. But there will be more focus on Spain and Italy in the meantime.

I think the only thing to add here is the component we called out around foreign travel having just to underline that point, significantly higher commission rates, which blends through on an international business and provides kind of upward momentum there.

Marcus?

Marcus Diebel at JPMorgan. I have 3 questions. Peter, if you can maybe talk a bit about the group guidance. It's obviously a wide range. I assume that there's obviously a question on strikes and how it impacts the business going forward. But if you can tell us a bit more what level of impact you see at least as of now in terms of strikes backed into the guidance. Jody, if you could talk about the GBR tender, if there's any sort of date that we should at least waiting for. You made it very clear in the release what your view is. But if you could just update us maybe in terms of any date that would be helpful. And then on international, thanks for the information. It's very helpful. Clearly, a big focus also on inbound customers, as you highlighted, U.S. tourist travel in Europe. Could you maybe share with us what the share of just inbound customers is versus domestic customers, if that's possible, at least if you could give us a certain idea. That was in the past, Heartland of Ouigo, your biggest competitor, but it seems that you get middle of market share also with the inbound customers. That would be great.

And there's a few to work through here. So we'll tag team as we go through. I don't just on guidance, I'll pick up straight, and then maybe come to you around guidance, Pete, and then work through the rest. So look, just on strike because it's a relevant question, I'll come up. look, we, of course, remain focused on supporting the customers. And I think the one thing that I will call out is just the amount of innovation we've put into the market to support customers, helping them with refunds, helping them find the next best train. Actually, this week, we've got a new feature called Strike Safe going live, which actually provides reassurance and confidence to book when there is no strike because sometimes it's sort of the shoulders of the strike get people don't book. So we're really leaning into this because we -- it's an area we know customers need to support for. Pete will speak to the guidance point. But what I would say is over the last sort of 6 weeks, we've actually had a clear run without any strikes, and we've seen the market really come back strongly getting back into the mid-90s in terms of ridership. And that gives me real confidence that ultimately, as we get through the strikes, we will see it return. And this was kind of some doomsayers maybe a few -- a couple of months ago, writing columns and stuff. But actually, we've seen really strong performance, which is encouraging. And look, the way I think about this is that without getting in all of the details, there's essentially 4 different agreements that have to be struck between kind of various unions and various parts of the railway. 2 of those have been agreed, 2 of them are live. And I can't predict when that will happen, but that gives you a sense of kind of where we stand on that. Pete, do you want to speak just a bit to how that factors into guidance?

Yes. So guidance is there to cover a range of moderate scenarios, I would say, when it comes to strikes. So we've provided some information about the average strike impact last year, and hopefully, that's useful to you. If we have many more strikes, we'll be at the lower end, if there are relatively fewer strikes, then we will be towards the upper end of the range. And I would add on top of that, we also have strikes in France. So they also watched through the pension reforms that are unfolding in France is a fairly charged situation in March when the government triggered Article 49/3 -- it was -- we had a particularly bad set of strikes, I would say, in April, they actually softened a bit, and our business picked up again. So yes, we're -- the guidance is in place to cover that. And then, of course, there's a macroeconomic impact that might wash through our business as well through the year as it hardens that might impact demand a bit, and we've taken that into account in our guidance as well.

If I pick up on the GBR tender point, I mean, just to go back up one level to GBR sort of in its entirety before we talk about a tender for an app there. Look, I think it's been encouraging new Secretary of State, Mark Harper, as I talked about briefly in the speech, but the tone of the Bradshaw address, I think his line was private sector's strongest role yet. -- within the sort of rail system, which I think totally is helpful for a number of organizations, not just train line. And then look, on the actual GBR app, there's no new news. I mean we kind of sat here a year ago saying it could be imminent, and I can't really narrow that range of options at GBR. We will wait and see where they ultimately get to on that. I think it's worth noting that the GTR, which is the [indiscernible] link, which is the largest U.K. talk, have come to tender or in the process right now of looking for a white label provider for their app, they currently use on track with a September 24 delivery date, and I'll just give you that as a sort of data point and context. And then if we go on to international and Pete, you should sort of chip in as we go through like. In terms of inbound customers, I think the one way I can talk about this is the total market we think of as a sort of maybe EUR 4 billion, EUR 5 billion in terms of the total foreign travel market. We don't disclose how that breaks out. But it's significant enough that we're talking about it in the context of the overall blended take rate. I guess that's probably a bit of a clue in there. And then with regard to competition, look, I think Rail Europe, Ouigo are the other 2 players that go here with Rail Europe been the more scaled of those 3 and when we look at. And then just came through here, but this is an area we've not done a huge amount. We've kind of taken our vanilla proposition, and it already works pretty well for a family arriving from New York. And actually, we think now we look at kind of harder. We've got an accelerated set of things to go out here. And if you think over the next 12, 18 months, there's quite a lot around kind of passes around Asian travel, things that we've not really even begun to innovate around, which encourage me on the future growth points. Peter, I don't know if you'd add anything to that?

No, I think you've covered it.

Next question. Ciaran?

It's Ciaran Donnelly Dolly from Liberum. A few questions from me. Just to push you on one point on the retail review and the net impact of 25 basis points on the commission rate, do you think you'll be able to offset that through other means by April 2025? Secondly, just on marketing spend, could you give us a sense of the split between brand and performance marketing, particularly in the international business? And then 3, just on digital penetration in the U.K., where is that now versus where it was last year? And finally, just on Uber in the U.K., any impact you've seen from the launch of their trial.

Sure. Thank you for the questions. Well, that's -- we'll step through those, but I think between both of us on a number of them. So the retail review 25 basis points, I think we just kind of voice over this confirms where we -- what we were talking about sitting here a year ago and look, we've known about this, I feel confident that we will be able to lean in and find ways to support that, and it won't be a challenge for us. So I think, Pete, if you -- Yes, that's good. That's what my answer. Marketing spend, Pete, do you want to take that one in terms of where we're going on that.

Yes. So roughly speaking, it's more like 50-50 than any other secure between performance marketing and brand. And the 2 have -- they interplay together. So you have -- on one extreme, you've got Google PPC marketing. But as you begin to bleed across into more display advertising and the like, it kind of blends into brand and then you have kind of out of home in the station. So there's kind of a continuum here. And part of our -- part of the marketing team's efforts are to optimize the right mix, right? There are certain points in time where you want to push harder on one particular channel versus another. So yes, the 50-50 is probably -- that gives you some sense of where that is, but that is something that we continue to work through and optimize over time.

Do you want to take the digital penetration and explain.

Yes. So if you think about e-ticket penetration as a good proxy for this, we've taken a huge step forward over the last 3 years. So back pre-COVID, it was at around 21%. The most recent quarter was 44%. And actually, that 44% really doesn't quite give a true sense of the momentum that we continue to see because the introduction of the Elizabeth line means that the -- it's suppressing that number a little bit. If you kind of back that out and you look at it on a like-for-like basis, you're looking more like 47%, 48%. So year-on-year, that's continued to push forward. And look, if you look ahead, there's we've got the supply side pretty much fully enabled apart from London, that's above 90% now. And if you look to other comparators like the airlines, where it's, what, 80%, 90% or so digital ticket now, that really gives you a sense of the sort of headroom that tested is to go here. So that's really exciting for us.