Transformers and Rectifiers (India) Limited (532928) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Transformers and Rectifiers India Limited Q3 FY '25 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Nuvama Wealth Management Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Subhadip Mitra from Nuvama Wealth Management Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thanks, Ryan. Good afternoon, friends. On behalf of Nuvama Wealth Management, welcoming you all to the third quarter FY '25 results call of Transformers and Rectifiers India Limited. We are joined today by the top management of the company represented by Mr. Jitendra Mamtora, Chairman; Mr. Satyen Mamtora, Managing Director; and Mr. Chanchal Rajora, CFO and Adviser to the Board. I would now like to request Mr. Satyen Mamtora to begin with his opening comments. Over to you, sir.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you all for joining us on this earnings call. We are delighted to have you here as we discuss our company's performance over the past quarter. Following our Board meetings earlier today, we have promptly released our financial results and investor presentation on the stock exchange. We are pleased with our order book position and the diverse range of orders secured throughout the quarter across various sectors, including renewable energy, private industries and power utilities. Notably, our new orders this quarter amounted to INR 631 crores. Our unexecuted order book as on December 31, 2024, stands at INR 3,686 crores currently. We have inquiries worth INR 19,000 crores under negotiation or in the bidding stage. Moving forward, we are excited to share our milestones. Acquired controlling stake in CRGO processing unit, which is 100% backward integrated. Also entered into supply agreement for mother coil. CRGO contributes about 30% to 35% of the total raw material in transformers. PGCIL approval process initiated for the fully automated radiator facility. Successfully completed 500 MVA short circuit test, highest MVA tested and the highest number of units manufactured in the single month. Additionally, we are pleased to share that we have entered 3 technological tie-ups aimed at supporting our backward integration goals. These collaborations will help us enhance our capabilities, reduce dependencies on external suppliers and improve our overall supply chain efficiency. We expect them to be operational by quarter 4 FY '26. Throughout FY '25, we have placed significant emphasis on people management and upskilling initiatives. Acknowledging the pivotal role of workforce in our sustained success, we have focused on enhancing technical skills, fostering leadership readiness and improving overall competence across the manufacturing, sales and engineering divisions. Our strategic recruitment in key areas such as engineering, sales and digital domains has been aligned with our business objectives. We would like to take this opportunity to express our sincere gratitude to all our stakeholders for our continued trust and support. Your confidence in us drives our commitment to delivering value, and we look forward to further strengthening our partnerships as we move forward in this growth phase. We extend our sincere gratitude to each participant for joining our earnings call for the continued support and trust. We hope we have addressed all your queries satisfactorily. Once again, I thank you for your participation today. I will now hand over the call to our CFO, Chanchal, who will take you through the financial details of the quarter.

Thank you, Satyen sir, for providing an overview of the current quarter. I would now like to share some key financial highlights with our esteemed shareholders. Dear shareholders, I'm pleased to share the company's performance of Q3 FY '25, which has been a period of notable growth in both revenue and profitability. In terms of the financial highlights in quarter 3 FY '24, we are -- our stand-alone revenue from operations stood at INR 545 crores, reflecting a strong year-on-year growth of 49%. Our EBITDA for the quarter was INR 87 crores, marking a significant increase of 136% (sic) [ 135% ] compared to the previous year with an operational EBITDA margin of 15.69%. Additionally, our profit after tax for Q3 was INR 50 crores showing a healthy year-to-year growth of 276% with a PAT margin of 9.12%. Our revenue target for current financial year remains intact, and we also started to prepare ourselves for FY '25, '26. Looking forward, we are optimistic about our prospects for FY '25, anticipating enhancement across various financial metrics. Our strategies are centered on achieving a streamlined balance sheet by reducing debtors and optimizing inventory management. Our ultimate aim is to transform into a debt-free company in the near future, supported by a clear actionable plan already underway. The main emphasis of the company is on the [ CPIR ] model, which is basically cash payable, receivable and inventory management. I believe that these 4 pillars are most important for the working capital management. We intend to achieve a revenue target of INR 3,500 crores plus in next financial year. Raw material tie-ups for the year-round requirements are already in place and shop floor is all ready to take up the new revenue targets. As stated earlier in many of my interactions, I'm happy to inform you that we are on the right path to achieve our USD 1 billion revenue in next 3 to 4 financial years. In conclusion, we are well positioned to capitalize on opportunities within the Indian evolving energy sector. With robust corporate governance and advanced technologies, superior products and dedicated team, we are confident in our path towards a sustainable and profitable growth. I extend my heartfelt gratitude to our customers, Board, management, and particularly our committed employees for their unwavering dedication and support. Together, let us continue to cultivate a promising future. I also thank all of you for joining us. Thank you. Subhadip, we can start Q&A, please.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of [ Raj Sarraf from Finvestors ].

Sir, congratulations on a very good set of numbers. And something, sir, while going through your presentation, I noticed that the order booking in Q3 is INR 631 crores, which was actually more than INR 1,000 crores in Q2, and even in Q1, the number was very good. So the dropping in order booking numbers, how to read that? Sir, while going through media and all available resources, we are coming to know that the transformer is in a very [ tight ] spot. So this is the question, sir. And the second question is, sir, the QIP, which we have planned for INR 750 crores. So are we looking for any acquisition near term? Or what is this for?

Raj, thank you for joining us. As far as the order book is concerned, Satyen sir will take you through that thing. Okay? And as far as the QIP is concerned, let me tell you that we have no intent to raise the money in near future. It is just enabling approval we have taken from the Board, so that if any good opportunity comes across, we are ready for that. We have no intention right now to raise any funds in next 2 quarters or 3 quarters. As and when a good opportunity comes, we definitely would like to come to the investors for support. As far as order book is concerned, this is a deliberate strategy of the company, as we don't want to take the orders in a hurry. We are already booked. And now we are more focused on the orders which has got the high margin as well as their payment terms are quite good. We have made a very clear strategy that there is no hurry in going on to each and every order. We have a very strong order book already in place and we also have very strong inquiry inflow in place. So orders will be taken as and when we feel that it's the right order for the organization.

And sir, one question is, the margin which I am seeing in Q3 is 16.5%, which was about 17% in Q2. And actually on the scale of operation, we are producing so much now. So why this scale of operation is not kicking in, sir? Am I reading something else?

Sorry, I did not understand your question.

Sir, the EBITDA margin, which is right now 16.5%, which in Q2 was about 17%, and we are actually increasing our scale of operations. So in this case, sir, the margin should increase? Or am I reading something -- am I missing something else, sir?

Look, Raj, the EBITDA margin is just 0.7% which is different from the Q2. You need to understand that we have a different product mix and we have a different product portfolio. So it is basically dependent on the product portfolio. In some products, we have some higher margin, some we have a less margin. So this margin is going to remain into this range itself. But apart from that, a significant thing I would like to address it to you, though we have the 0.9% to 0.7% less EBITDA as compared to the last quarter, our PAT line has increased as compared to the last quarter, which is a very significant achievement for us. And as I have been telling in my all the interactions that my more emphasis is on the PAT, that I want to reach the 10% PAT level. And I'm happy to say that we are very, very close to that.

And sir, the long-term guidance of USD 1 billion revenue, which is in presentation and in the last conference call, which was that we are saying that in next 3 years, we'll be meeting USD 1 billion revenue. And sir, when the CFO spoke, sir, the time line was 3 to 4 years. So is it 3 years or 4 years, sir?

Raj, the metrics keep changing, right? We want to achieve it in the next 2 years' time. But how the metrics work out, it will depend on that. So the 3 to 4 years, I think, is a reasonably very good line.

Yes. Okay. Congratulations once again for posting a performance like that.

Subhadip?

Yes sir, please go ahead.

I request that at one point in time, if we can take one question, so that others will have the opportunity also.

Okay, sir. I'll make the announcement as well. [Operator Instructions] Our next question comes from the line of Manish Ostwal from Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited.

Most of the questions already answered. Only I have one question. What is the current gross debt on the balance sheet and the working capital -- net working capital absolute figure?

Sorry, we didn't get your question, Manish.

I'm asking, sir, what is the gross debt as on 31st December? And what is the working capital figure as on 31st December?

Manish, I'll address this question when I will present you my quarter 4 audited numbers, please. Because since we have not disclosed the balance sheet, so under the guidelines of SEBI, these figures cannot be disclosed here at this moment.

Okay. And secondly, sir, we are hearing so much of debate on the slowdown in the economy, government spending. So compared to the H1, how do you see the things in your business, whether things are picking up or gradual picking up? Can you make a comment on that? That would be great.

Manish, if you look at our this quarter order book, that stands at INR 631 crores, and our unexecuted order book for the next 18 to 24 months is INR 3,686 crores. So there is no slowdown as such in terms of infrastructure development in India. We have inquiries worth INR 19,000 crores under negotiation or in bidding phase. So there is a lot of opportunity for all this business.

The next question comes from the line of Subhadip Mitra from Nuvama Wealth Management.

Sir, 2 questions from my side. Firstly, just wanted to understand a little bit clearly on the guidance. I think I heard in your opening comments that we're looking at about INR 3,000 crore revenue by FY '26, and...

INR 3,500 crores, Subhadip.

INR 3,500 crores. And for FY '27, sir, is there a number? I think we were looking at a number closer to INR 4,000 crores. INR 4,500 crores?

Let us achieve the next year numbers first, yes.

Understood. And the margin trajectory, I think, in the past also, you have mentioned that you're looking to move towards a 17% plus kind of a margin by FY '27. Are we still holding on to that?

I am. Currently, we are.

Understood. Secondly, in terms of, one, the utilization of the QIP funds that you raised some time back, and the benefit of the backward integration and M&A that you are seeing, so how much of the quantum has got utilized, how much is yet to be done? And secondly, how do you see this backward integration into CRGO and the other proposed M&A activities helping in terms of your margin expansion?

Subhadip, I just -- the earlier participant, I told that the balance sheet things, we cannot disclose this right now. So we are submitting our details about the QIP utilization to the extent time and again. So that I can't right now tell you these things. Yes, but we are on the right path to invest the funds on the right place and right proposition. That is one thing I can make you sure that it is going to add a significant improvement in my top line as well as in my bottom line. And as far as how this backward integration is going to benefit us, I would request my Chairman to put up his thought on this.

Thank you, Chanchal. It is going to be minimum 4% increase in the PAT when we put all the projects online -- on track, because it is not -- I mean, some of the product is meant for us, some of the products also for us and for selling it to the market. But the advantage which we are going to get using our own product will reduce my raw material by about 4% total.

Understood. And you envisage all these benefits panning out by FY '27? Or could it take slightly longer?

No, before that.

Our next question comes from the line of Gaurav Shukla from Finvestors. Since there is no response, we move on to our next question, which is from the line of Shivam Dave from Prodigy Investment.

Congrats on the great set of numbers. In terms of the 15,000 MVA CapEx that we are incurring right now, where are we in terms of the process right now?

Shivam, this project is quite on track. And we expect this to be completed by February, March, and we expect early next year, the operation will start. And also, if you have seen in the presentation, our Chairman has said that from this quarter, we will start taking the orders for that expansion.

So it should start from Q1 next year?

Yes, yes, yes.

Our next question comes from the line of Ganeshram from Unifi Capital.

Congrats on the numbers. I just have 2 questions. First one is on the INR 3,500 crores guidance for FY '26. How much of that will be coming from our existing capacity and how much from the capacity that you'll be commissioning in Feb, March, right? So just if you could give us some granular details on the ramp-up and how that fits into your guidance? And the second one is with the CRGO backward integration, right? So I understand it's 30%, 35% of your cost. But if you could just give us a broad split that on a sustainable level, what is the RM cost in our transformers on a blended basis? And other than the CRGO, what are the other components that influence the cost?

Ganesh, first of all, in this INR 3,500 crores, there is no addition of the facility which is coming up. It is from the -- all is from the existing set of the system. This is one, that as I told you earlier also, we have not even started taking the orders for the expansion facility, right? You can see that I already have a INR 3,600 crore order book. So we'll be able to do that.

So Ganesh, the INR 3,600 crores order book is for the next 18 to 24 months. So we will be doing INR 3,500 crores partly from the existing facility and partly from the new facility that we are going to start.

Okay. Okay. So there is no additional amount we should expect over the INR 3,500 crores from the new facility, you're saying? This will be executed, but in a -- I mean, basically, the existing order book will be split across the new facility?

Yes.

Okay. About your second question, Ganeshram, as we told that CRGO is 35% of my raw material component. That itself is quite a significant amount and CRGO is the second most expensive product also in my product line.

Yes, sir. So the remaining RM, what would it be?

Sir, this is the product mix, and lots of items are involved, a lot of components involved that we would not like to discuss here in this call.

Understood. And maybe the last one, just one last one. I heard you were answering another participant by saying you're being a bit selective in your order inflow, right? So if you could just give us a sense, on the orders that you have now accepted in the INR 600 crores order, what would be the incremental margin compared to our existing margin?

Ganeshram, this is a business question which I would not like to discuss here.

The next question comes from the line of Rajit Aggarwal from Nilgiri Investment Managers Private Limited.

Is it possible for you to comment on the debtor days, if you can disclose the absolute numbers? How has the movement been in debtor days in Q3 compared to Q2? Has it worsened? Is it still the same? Or has it improved?

It has improved, sir.

It's improved. Great, sir. And are there any overdues from any of the government clients, public sector undertakings?

No, there is no overdue.

There is no overdue. Okay. And lastly, sir, is it possible to throw some more light on the acquisition that you have made, as to the cost of the acquisition, by when do you think it will be operational, and by when will it start to accrue or when will the EBITDA margins start to show improvement because of the backward integration?

The acquisition has already started doing our work. It is basically existing facility, and it has already started doing our work. The EBITDA improvement from this particular acquisition will start from the Q1 next year when this is 100% integrated with our system.

Wonderful, sir. And the cost of the acquisition?

Sir, with the SEBI guidelines, I am bound not to disclose that.

The next question comes from the line of Vignesh from Ksema Wealth.

Just want to understand the demand from the Europe. Last con call, I believe you had discussion with the European clients. So just want to understand that how is it panning out?

Sorry, what?

The orders from the European client, sir, how is the situation?

Look, Vignesh, the orders keep coming from all the corners, right? European also, we got some orders in last quarter and this quarter also. And we are in discussion at the various levels with the other clients. But let me tell you one thing very categorically clear, the opportunities are quite huge in India and much better than the other part of the world. So my focus is first to encash the opportunities which lies right now here, and we are working on those directions. And the Europeans, we are discussing with -- not only with the Europeans, we are discussing with a few of the American clients also. Very recently, a few American clients have visited. And as and when the good amount of the order comes, we always keep announcing it to the exchange also.

Okay, sir. Going forward, we see foreign orders increasing, or it is mostly towards the domestic thing, which will be the majority of the order book?

So Vignesh, we would like to limit our export orders to 20% and not beyond that. Rest, we want to develop India, and that's why we are keeping our 80% capacity for India.

The next question comes from the line of [ Ashish Soni from Family Office ].

Out of 90,000 order book, how many are we expecting to convert for our order?

Ashish, these keep getting converted as and when we want. Right now, as I told you that we are not focused on taking the left and right orders, we are more focused on the orders which are high yield generator to us and quick payment things, right? If I want to take the orders, I can take INR 1,000 crores order every month. That is right now the scenario of the market. But we are very, very selective on the order size.

Is it like maybe 25% of INR 19,000 crores approximately? Any guess, sir?

Sir, we have a target. As I told you that in any of our discussions, we will keep telling that we will be having an order book of INR 4,000 crores plus by the end of this financial year, and we are working on those directions completely.

The next question comes from the line of [ Vishnu Boyapati ], an investor.

Congratulations for the good set of numbers. And I'm glad to see, as an investor, looking at these numbers. And my question is from that side of -- previously, you had said that 19,000 inquiries, which we will convert 25% to 30% conversion rate. Is it right, sir?

Generally, yes.

And is it intact in this quarter also, sir, 25% to 30%, or any change in that percentage conversion?

See, it's difficult to say, because the market is very -- what should I say, good at this point of time. So who wants to take the order, the people, the companies who does not want to take the order because they are full with the orders, then their prices will be higher like us. We have quoted -- now we have started quoting at higher margins now. So that with the conversion maybe not 25%, 30%, maybe 15% to 20%.

Okay. I understand, sir. And next one is a question from -- we had PAT margin -- profit after tax nearing to 10%. In coming quarters, we may cross the 10% confidently, sir?

Vishnu, basically, if you have been hearing my all the conversation, I always say that my target is to reach to the 10% PAT levels. And sustainable mode, if I continue that, that will be a great achievement for us.

Yes. Okay. And we are going for QIP. Is it for both organic and inorganic growth?

I just -- the first question which I answered is that there is no plan of raising fund right now. We have just taken an enabling approval. And as and when if any opportunity comes, we will think over that. But in near future, there is no such plan.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of [ Vivek Gautam from GS Investment ].

Congratulations on excellent set of numbers consistently quarter after quarter. So my query is about the export potential and any risk of duties being levied from government and impact of Red Sea leading to increased freight rates and opportunity size in India and expected growth rate, sir.

Vivek, just if you heard MD sir has just told that we don't want to increase our export abruptly. We just want to -- just focus that we should have our 20% order book by end of next financial year from the exports and we would like to stick to that. The opportunities in India are much, much better than the export, and we first want to adopt the policy of India first. As far as the government policies and all this is concerned, we don't see any changes much in these policies coming. And freight rates are the rates which just keep coming and going. And generally now, we have stopped taking the orders on the CIF basis, we are more focused on the orders on the FOB basis or exports basis. So changes in the freight won't affect on us.

The next question comes from the line of [ Jainam from Saltoro Investment ].

Congratulations on a fantastic set of numbers. My question is about the new fully automated radiator facility that you are seeking approval from PGCIL. So I wanted to understand, I guess, it's a high-value product, if you could explain what is its utility? And will it be focused on the exports or domestic market? And at what stage of PGCIL approval are we? If you could explain that, that would be great.

See, it is not a high-value product. The cost of the radiator and the transformer raw material -- if you consider the transformer raw material, the cost of the radiator will be around 8% to 9%, not more than that. And there are a lot of opportunities for export for the radiators also. But before exporting, we want to be sure that the quality which comes out of the plant meets with the requirement of the foreign customers. So we will wait for the right opportunity. Once fully we are satisfied, we'll start exporting. There is no dearth of the orders as such. Most of the people who are making radiators are fully booked. Their delivery time has gone to something like 10 to 12 months now in India. So there is no dearth of the orders. So you can get the orders. But in absolute terms, the cost of the radiators or the percentage of the radiator cost is only 8% of the total cost of the raw material cost of the transformer.

And secondly is that first we wanted to become 100% backward integrated in radiators for our own requirement. And as far as the PGCIL approval is concerned, we have just initiated it for the 765 kV class approvals. So we have just initiated it. So it will take some time to get it.

The next question comes from the line of Ishita Lodha from SVAN Investment.

[Technical Difficulty].

Ishita, sorry to interrupt you there, but your audio is not clear. Could you please repeat your question?

I have a question [Technical Difficulty] tonnage. And I also heard some of the raw materials would be [Technical Difficulty] proportion as to how much should be sold in the market?

Subhadip, I could not hear her question clearly, but whatever I heard is that she's talking about the acquisition what we have done right now, right? So if I am right, then the first target is to utilize that acquisition for completely in-house purpose. And after that, if anything is available, we will be selling it to the peers, right? But we say it cannot be -- at the present scenario, it cannot be more than 15% of the total capacity available.

The next question comes from the line of Abhishek Shah from Ambit Limited.

Congratulations on a fantastic quarter. Just a question on -- post this 16,000 MVA capacity expansion, what would be our estimated revenue capacity of our installed base? And just to clarify, our FY '25 revenue target was around INR 2,000 crores, right?

Yes, Abhishek, our FY '25 revenue target is INR 2,000 crores, and we are still on that target, and we hope that we'll be able to achieve that. And second is post this expansion, we will be somewhere around 55,000 MVA levels.

The next question comes from the line of Mayank Bhandari from AMSEC.

Sir, you highlighted the order book by the end of this year would be INR 4,000 crores. Next year revenue guidance is INR 3,500 crores. Execution timeline, you also highlighted 18 to 24 months. So what am I missing here? Is it like you are getting more orders, more shorter orders? Or how INR 4,000 crores of order book will translate into INR 3,500 crores of revenue?

Okay. Mayank, just to inform you that we have 3 facilities and all these 3 facilities produce different kind of transformers. When we are talking about INR 4,000 crores order book, we don't count much of the order from the distribution facility, because these are the orders which are the short time orders. Say, order comes. In a month or 2 months' time, we make the orders and give it to that. When we talk about the INR 4,000 crores order book, majority orders which is there for 200-plus kV plus transformers, right? Our second facility, Changodar, also produced the mid-level transformers. That also the lead time is around 3 to 4 months' time. So this combination is good enough to give us the targets which we are telling right now.

The next question comes from the line of [ Nikita Goyal from Shubhalakshmi Family Office ].

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. I just had this one question. Green hydrogen transformers, which you are the sole qualified supplier, so how much market share is from this particular product? Like how does this product push to your market share?

So market share is today around -- between 18% and 20% for -- I'm talking about EHV transformers.

She is talking about the green hydrogen. That is not...

Oh. Green hydrogen has not yet started. Green hydrogen is still in prototype phase. It's just -- they have not taken up the project as yet. That's a very initial stage. They're making prototype and checking the [indiscernible]. Yes. So it's going to take time.

The next question comes from the line of [ Surabhi Saroki from Swift Capital Limited ].

Sir, I have just one clarification. In your opening remarks, you said that you have become 100% backward integrated with the acquisition of what was the name of the entity that you mentioned?

Posco Poggenamp Electricals Private Limited.

Okay. It is the CRGO processing unit that you have acquired, right?

Yes, yes.

The next question is from the line of Gaurav Shukla from Finvestors.

Congratulations for a good set of numbers. Sir, my question is regarding, during last con call, you have said that if you want, you can take INR 1,000 crore order. And I want to know, sir, what are the factors affecting the order book, why you cannot take much order? And second, sir, regarding CRGO, is there any CRGO scarcity in transformer sector?

Okay. Gaurav, first question is that why I am not taking this order, because I don't want to pay the late delivery charges to the customers. Second point, as I told you, time and again I was mentioning that we wanted to leverage on the pricing as well as on the payment terms. So we are very selective on the customers basically on the payment terms and the pricing side. So that is the thing. And as far as the CRGO is concerned, yes, CRGO is in scarcity in the country. India doesn't produce the CRGO. And the processing of the CRGO is more important, because not much good processing centers are available in the country. Subhadip, can we please take 2 last questions, please?

Certainly, sir. The next question comes from the line of Amit from PL Capital.

So first question is kind of a clarification. You talked about USD 1 billion revenue in next financial year. Are we talking cumulative number of 9,000 to 10,000 collectively in 36 months?

I don't think that I should reply this question, Amit. How can I reach to USD 1 billion revenue if I'm -- you're talking about a collective number of 5 years or 4 years?

Sir, just wanted a clarification on what you have written in your presentation.

I don't think that I should even reply this number. I'm talking about a year number, a year revenue.

Annual USD 1 billion, right?

Yes, yes.

Okay. And second...

We have lost the line for Amit. We'll move on to our next question from the line of Naman Parmar, Niveshaay Investment.

So I just wanted to understand on the macro side. So how much the transmission work has been completed till now? Being the largest player in the power transformer, you will be better able to give understanding on that. And secondly, I wanted to understand on the lead time in the export market.

See, we have no idea about how much transmission projects are completed, because every day because of the new solar plants coming up, the requirements are getting bigger and bigger. But we have no absolutely idea about how many projects are there today. We only know about how many tenders are there. So we don't keep track of the transmission projects.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to Subhadip Mitra for his closing comments.

I would like to thank the management for giving us this opportunity to host the call today and for spending so much time with us answering these questions. May I now hand over the call to sir for his closing comments.

Thank you very much, everyone, for participating in this conference call. And we really thank you all for your good wishes for our good results. Thank you very much.

Thank you. On behalf of Nuvama Wealth Management Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.