TruFin plc (29U.F) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to the TruFin plc Interim Results Investor Presentation. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, I would like to submit the following poll. And I would now like to hand you over to CEO, James Van Den Bergh. Good morning to you.

Thanks, Alex. Good morning, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us in this interim results presentation. So yes, I'm James Van Den Bergh. I'm the CEO of TruFin, and I'm going to go through our first half year results, a little update on how July and August are going or went and then open for questions. So as you know, we are a holding company. We have majority stakes in 3 companies. We're going to go into each of them in more detail later. But for those who don't know, Oxygen is an early payments business. We also offers insights and data services to local authorities and their suppliers in the U.K. Satago is a -- offers lending as a service products and embedded finance and credit control tools in the U.K. and Playstack is a publisher -- games publisher and developer, again, based in the U.K. and also has a number of people who operate from the U.S. For the eagle eye amongst you, you'll notice that the one change on this slide from when we last spoke is that we now own roughly a circa 98% stake in Satago. So when we last spoke that was -- that was at 74.7%. That's because there was a recent funding round, which we participated in, and the third-party investor decided not to participate in. So hence, that's the reason why our shareholding went up dramatically. So today, we're focused on the first half. What does this chart show? So what this is, this shows us the revenue of the group for the last number of years. So in 2024, the first half revenue, which is the dark green sort of part of the bar chart at the bottom, that's the first half, the second half is the top half of the bar chart. First half revenue in 2024 was GBP 25.3 million. And in the first half this year, it's GBP 36 million. So that's an increase of 42%, which is a fantastic achievement, a great performance. But what does this mean for the bottom line? So this slide, again, lots of numbers, but a similar message. This slide, you focus on the chart -- the bar chart to the right. This chart shows that EBITDA in the first half 2024 was GBP 2.9 million. EBITDA in the first half this year was GBP 6.9 million, so 136% growth. I also think it's worth pointing out that the EBITDA this year so far is almost already eclipsed the EBITDA in the whole of 2024. I think it's worth pointing that out. And the good news continues. So July and August, our revenues are in excess of GBP 11 million. That's more than 90% growth year-on-year. Most of that performance is as a result of very strong performance from Playstack in July and August. There are 2 game launches. Abiotic Factor was an early access and went to full launch in July and Void/Breaker launched in August. So 2 extremely strong months for us. And though I'd love to say you should extrapolate it out at the end of the year, it would be very unwise to do so. Obviously, we'd love performance to continue in this fashion, but those are 2 particularly strong months for us. So -- great. Thank you. Thank you, Alex. So lots of numbers on this chart. I think on this slide, I think what I'd really like to pull out here is EBITDA. The EBITDA we mentioned is GBP 6.9 million in the first half. What you'll notice is that the EBITDA margin went from 11.4% in the first half last year to over 19%, 19.1% in the first half of this year. So that shows that we're not just increasing revenue, but we've also got a very, very strong handle on costs. The other point, I think, worth pulling out is our cash and cash equivalents. The cash and cash equivalents at the end of the first half was GBP 18 million. And there's a little footnote there, which you need to look carefully at. So we had a buyback program in place, which we started off early this year, GBP 4 million buyback and since the end of June, since the end of the first half, we have completed an extra GBP 2.5 million of that GBP 4 million buyback. So you shouldn't think of the cash as GBP 18 million. You should think of that GBP 18 million since then we spent GBP 2.5 million of it on a buyback. We bought the shares back -- that share buyback program is now complete, and we bought back those shares at an average price of 97p and there's also working capital differences, which do even out over time. But again, I think it's important to note there are some -- there are a lot of receivables, creditors in these numbers, but still a great number. I mean, off this chart, we also announced that cash at the end of August was GBP 18.5 million. So again, we were at GBP 18 million, spent GBP 2.5 million of that on a buyback, and we're now at GBP 18.5 million. So it shows you between the end of June and the end of August, we've been cash generative. Again, with the caveat that there's working capital movements within that. But nevertheless, I think it hopefully shows you the general trend is very positive in terms of cash. So we're going to go into more details on the subsidiaries later, but just a very quick summary. Playstack had an exceptional first half. And it also -- it's got a very, very strong pipeline of games lined up for the second half of this year and for 2026. Auction, as we said before, we are going to demonstrate the operational leverage, and that's been demonstrated by the significant EBITDA improvement that's happened this year. And Satago, the revenue in the first half 2024 was benefited from the revenue we had with our Tier 1 bank partner. So first half '24, we have revenue from the bank -- our bank partner. First half this year, we didn't because we -- the bank terminated the contract in the summer last year. So they're not really like-for-like periods, but still -- so revenue did decline by 56%, which is we did expect that. We've subsequently restructured the cost base very aggressively, and we'll go into more detail on that in a minute. Thank you, Alex. So Oxygen, as you know, we're extremely lucky to own this business. So why do I say that? So I think there's 3 big points about Oxygen. The contract terms for Oxygen are 5 years in duration, that gives incredible visibility of revenues. Their clients are local authorities and the suppliers to those local authorities. So it's an enormous market to go after. So we've got very, very good visibility of earnings. We've got an enormous market to go after. And the barriers to entry in this business are extraordinary. So you just ask any one of our competitors, our older competitors because we don't really have any competitor now, people try to enter the market, they struggle for all sorts of reasons we can go into at another time. And so every time I hear there's another competitor to auction coming to the market, I always think good luck, but I couldn't be less phased. There's obviously things I worry about with Oxygen, like all businesses. But one competitor coming in, I do not worry about. No one's got the patience required to build a business like Oxygen. So Oxygen is now billing over 1,000 clients. We're servicing over 30,000 suppliers on behalf of our councils. This business is really scaling. And you can see last time we spoke, we mentioned that you're going to see a big improvement in EBITDA in 2025, and you can see that coming through now. So H1 -- the chart on the left -- bottom left, you can see H1 2025 EBITDA has increased to GBP 1.6 million. That's up from GBP 0.6 million in the first half 2024. It's 151% increase. So a great result. And that is despite a very disruptive event that occurred in the U.K. this year. So there's something called the Procurement Act. I doubt many of you have heard about the Procurement Act. Procurement Act came into force on the 24th of February this year. So what is the Procurement Act? The Procurement Act mandated a different way for councils and local authorities to procure. So there's more governance. They've got to update their processes more often. They've got to train their procurement staff ahead. They have to try and train their procurement staff ahead of the Procurement Act. They've got to engage differently with their suppliers. There's more contract management once the contract is issued. There's more notices to suppliers. And ultimately, that's the issue. There's more processes for local authorities to follow in order for them to procure. And people, as you know, don't like changing their habits. I don't like changing my habits. I'm sure you don't have to change your habits. And I can tell you, looking at this graph, we also know that procurement offices at local authorities also don't like changing their habits. So this graph shows the 30-day rolling average tenders, number of tenders by volume, not by pound amount by volume across the England. So this is the total number of contracts that are out in the tenders that are out in the open market in England since January 2024. And this -- note, this excludes Greater London because that's the sort of numbers. So you can see ahead of the Procurement Act on the 24th of February, there was a big rise in the number of tenders that were issued. And that's because being cynical, if you know there's going to be an enormous increased onus and number of processes and steps, you're going to have to follow through to procure after the 24th of February, what happens is people procure before the 24th of February. So that's a very large number of tenders were issued before 24th of February and then it falls off a cliff, and it's now returning to a more normalized level. To put it into perspective, if you look at from the 1st of January to the end of August, so the year-to-date number of tenders in the U.K. versus exactly the same period in 2024, the number of tenders has declined by 24%. So there's been a drop in the number of tenders that have happened in the U.K. year-over-year. So that even takes into account the big rise that we saw before [indiscernible] February and the big decline since. And that's because many councils and local authorities have also -- what they've done is rather than retender for a contract, they can just extend the contract. So there might be a 2-year [indiscernible] contract, and they've just extended by a year. And that means that they also don't have to go through a new tender process, which means they don't have to issue a contract with 14 notices and do it the new way. They can just extend the contract. So we -- this has caused a muted -- I mean, fair to say, a big reduction in the number of tenders that have been issued by councils in the U.K. this year. And that is now normalizing. So I think it's important to say that's now normalizing. But I would say this, that if you look and think about it another way, we are volume driven. So the more tenders that go through, the more pounds that go through our clients, the better off we do as a business. So despite volumes falling by 24% in the U.K., our revenue in the first half was up 27%. July and August is a bit more muted. We grew by 12% over that July and August. So obviously, slower than the 27% growth in the first half, but that's in the environment where the whole -- our market is down 24%. So I think we're -- something we're very pleased with that, but still July and August was a more muted performance than the first half. But what this doesn't do is change the fact that we've got an incredible long-term visibility in Oxygen. So what this graph shows you is that if we didn't win another client ever again at Oxygen, that 90% of the next 4 years revenue is baked into the numbers. So if we didn't win another client, we would hit 90% of our revenue -- our forecasted revenue growth for the next 4 years. So it's an incredibly -- and again, going back to the earlier point about it. Procurement Act will wash through the system councils and local authorities, et cetera, will start procuring again. They found ways to avoid doing that in short term as they get used to new processes, but they will come back, and tenders will -- and volumes will rise. So this business is in rude health. Yes, there's a big market distortion happening at the moment, and we're riding that little storm out. And I think we're doing very well in the process. And the next 4 years, we've got incredible visibility, not just on the -- obviously, our existing clients, but we've got a pipeline of over 100 clients as well. So we expect to win about 6 clients a year, early payment clients a year. We've won 4 this year already. So the business is in great, great shape. So going on to Satago. So it's never a nice thing to have to make people redundant. It's been -- something that was forced upon us by the termination of the Tier 1 bank contract, very, very difficult for everyone involved, but we did have to rightsize the business, and we did that. So the last 12 months, we've reduced the headcount from around 75 to just shy of 20 people. So a very, very big reduction in the headcount and the cost base Satago. It was the right thing to do. But again, I'd say it's a very difficult thing to do and very difficult for everyone involved. I mean the result of that is that despite -- as we mentioned earlier, despite Satago's revenues declining by 50% in the first half, the first half loss actually reduced from GBP 2.7 million to GBP 1.4 million. So what about the future? Well, we -- as I mentioned earlier, we invested in Satago because we -- it is a market-leading platform. There's an exceptionally talented team in Satago that remains in Satago, and they've got phenomenal partners, partners that can see the potential within Satago. And one of our major partners just signed a new 3-year contract with Satago, which again validates what they see and the value that they see within Satago. And this slide here shows the credit control tool subscriber growth and the usage of those subscribers. So -- and you can see that's grown 40% over the last 12 months. So we can see value in Satago. We know others can see value in Satago. We've reset the business, reset the cost base and now we're rebuilding. Right. On to Playstack. So this is very much Playstack's victory lap. It's been an incredible first half from Playstack, driven predominantly by Balatro and Abiotic Factor. What's interesting though is in July and August, the revenues were mainly driven by Abiotic Factor and Void/Breaker. I know one of the concerns last year from investors was how -- what are you going to do post Balatro? Well, you can see we've -- we're publishing other incredible games like Abiotic Factor and Void/Breaker, which is bringing increasing the portfolio effect to the business. We -- and it's just worth noting Void/Breaker returned their invested capital on day 1 of launch, another exceptional performance from an exceptional game and a very talented developer. We've got a [ jam ] packed 2026. And to put that into context, by the end of this year, we'll have GBP 10 million or slightly more than GBP 10 million of your money, investors' money out in the world as developer advances. So we as a publisher, we invest -- we give developers a certain amount of capital, which allows them to truly speaking, live, eat, build their game, make it the best it can be with our assistance and then we publish the game. So those developer advances that we invest in these different games, which is our pipeline, that now at the end of this year will be over GBP 10 million. By the end of next year, will be over GBP 16 million. So you can see we're investing heavily into the pipeline of games. And one of the games -- so we're launching 8 games next year. One of the games Mortal Shell II and just go and have a look -- if you haven't looked at on YouTube, go and have a look on YouTube, turn the volume down a bit, otherwise, you'll probably bust your eardrums. It's trending extremely well on the Steam's Wishlists charts. So it's a game we're really excited by. And we raised -- did a fundraise in July 2023 for this game. We said it will be launched in 2026, and it will be. So yes, go and have a look at that if you want to get excited. And then it's also worth noting that Sean Brennan, who is on the Board of Playstack, has got a phenomenal track record in gaming. He has joined the Board of TruFin as of our announcement on Wednesday. So we're really excited to have him on board. So you've all seen this chart before, this graph before. Firstly, have a look at the charts on the left and the top left. So what these graphs shows is the return on individual games. And so there's many more graphs we could show, but this is just a sample. So the little purple dot is our invested capital, as I mentioned earlier, we invest capital in the games we subsequently publish. So that's our invested capital. And then after that, it's a sort of return on that and we get a return on that invested capital. So when the green line and the green line shows the net revenue of the game, when the green line is above the purple dot, that's when we are making money, and we get a return on our invested capital. So you can see that chart -- game 3, we haven't yet returned our invested capital because the green line is below the purple dot. And so just taking as a whole, you can see that the performance of all the games that we've launched so far inception to date. So since inception, we have a hit ratio, which is an American baseball term, which is sort of if you go for a ball, you could go for a strike, go to hit ball, do you managed to hit it? Yes, over 90% of the times, we return -- we hit the ball, we return our invested capital. It's an old term from a previous era when I was a hedge fund manager. So you return -- we return our invested capital more than 90% of the time than when we invest. So we've launched 13 games, 12 of which have returned their invested capital, which is an extraordinary data point. And then the average return we get on that invested capital is over 300%. And that is excluding Balatro, our #1 game. So if most fund managers exclude their #1 performing stock or investment, the returns could be -- might be pretty woeful. If you exclude our #1 performing game, our return on invested capital is still over 300%. So an exceptional selection of stats there for you. And then if you go to the right-hand side, again, what about the future? Well, we've got 4 games launching this year. The one to really focus in on. I mean, they're all going to be fantastic games. The one we're focusing on is unbeatable. That's launching on November 5. That's currently 91st on the Steam's Wishlist chart, so -- which is a great position for an indie game to be on. That's the most wish -- the chart shows the most wish-listed games in the whole of the world. There are 18,000 launched every year, ours is currently -- that game is currently 91st. Next year, we've got 8 games secured. We've announced 2 of them, Mortal Shell II and RACCOIN, and we've got 6 others we're launching, which are secured but unannounced. So we will be announcing in due course. And we've also got games we've already secured for 2027, and we're looking to build that pipeline as well. So a very, very attractive portfolio games for the future. And all these games, it's worth noting, have been found by the same system that found the last 13 games, which have returned over 300% return on invested capital. So we're using the same process, the same system, the same discipline that we expect will continue to deliver exceptional returns. So I hope you agree. We're doing really well. We're doing really, really well. We're going to continue to underpromise and over deliver. We're growing, grew 42% in the first half. We're delivering more profit per unit of revenue. We're generating cash, and that cash has allowed us to announce our second buyback, our second GBP 4 million buyback, which we've just started. And that buyback is despite 2 buybacks now totaling GBP 8 million, we're still ahead on cash. We're investing significant amounts of money in Playstack. And as you know, we've invested money into Satago too. So we're not hampering the future growth of these businesses in order to buy back shares. We're buying back shares because these businesses are performing so well that they're generating cash, which allows us to buy back shares. And we're focused on delivering exceptional -- continuing to deliver exceptional returns on invested capital, continue to be disciplined with Playstack. We're going to demonstrate -- continue to demonstrate Oxygen's operational leverage and turn Satago into a profitable business. If we do those 3 things, we will extract the most value possible from this group for you, our shareholders. So that's our plan for the future. And with that, hopefully, Alex, you're happy for me to open for questions.

Yes, that's correct, James. [Operator Instructions] And James, if I may now hand back to you for the Q&A, read out the questions where appropriate, and I'll pick up from you at the end. Thank you.

Great. Thanks, Alex. Yes. So first question, could Balatro be launched on a multiplayer platform? I think what that means is a multiplayer -- could there be more than one player playing Balatro rather console. Yes, is the answer because you can already play it on console, so I suspect it first. Yes, absolutely you could be launching a multiplayer platform. We work with the developer, LocalThunk. We've got a plan for that game. But yes, there's lots of areas we can move it to. But you'll hear it first from Playstack and LocalThunk whatever the decision on that game. But yes, there's lots of potential for it for sure. Jake says -- Jake T, thank you for your good set of results. Thank you, Jake. However, the logic of increasing PV, I'm not sure what that means, but to shareholders and fixing a buyback price of 91p for your shares defies logic. Please explain. Well, I will explain. So I think what you're referring to is that in our buyback announcement, we mentioned we're buying back shares, 91p shares. That's just a sort of administrative number. Don't get fixated on that 91p. As you can see, as you saw yesterday, if you look at our announcement yesterday, we bought roughly 100,000 shares back at 1.7p. So we are buying shares above 91p. We have a cap on the price that we had to buy shares, but obviously, it's above 91p. So hopefully, that answers that question. And just again, to reassure you, the last GBP 4 million buyback, the average price we paid was 97p. So that 91p, I think you just ignore it for now. Jack says, where should Playstack EBIT to EBITDA margins be in the next few years? Well, they're going to be growing. We're not going to -- we haven't said where we expect them to end up, but they are growing, and they will continue to grow. We're going to maintain incredible cost discipline, which is that's something that this industry is not renowned for. The gaming industry is not renowned for. And we're going to continue to launch exceptional games and achieve exceptional returns on invested capital. In that scenario, EBITDA and EBIT margins go up, but we're not going to specify exactly where we see them going. Same Jack again, how do potential cars value businesses like Playstack? What metrics they're looking at? So potential acquirers, well, if you are a publisher and you want to acquire -- if you're maybe a AAA publisher or another publisher, indie games publisher and you want to acquire another -- you want to grow through acquisition or if you've got a lot of capital and you're finding it hard to publish games that could get a good return on your invested capital, then if you look at Playstack and you look at a business that has 12 out of 13 games, we think that ratio is going to continue. So if you find a business that has a system -- a systematic way of finding and returning -- of investing and returning exceptional returns on investment, then that's a business that I would want to own if I was the CEO of a publishing business and I wanted to grow through acquisition or I had a tremendous amount of capital that I wanted to deploy because these sorts of returns are exceptional. So I think and we think that acquirers will value the business in 3 years. One, it will look at the back catalog. So next year, roughly 50% of all the revenues will be from back catalog. That's business that's games that we've done the work for where the money just comes in. And then I think they'll value that, then they'll value the engine of growth, which is the engine that we've been using to source these investment opportunities or the -- and the publishing team, an exceptional publishing team that is at place that one indie game publisher of the year last year in the U.K. So we are the #1. It's not me you sell it; U.K. sell it. We're the #1 U.K. publisher in U.K. So they will value that engine of growth that publishing team. And then they also value the pipeline of games that we've already secured for the future. So that's how we think this business can be looked at in that way. I think hopefully, then they look at the metrics they look at, they look at return on invested capital, they look at IRRs. They'll look at the back catalog, how it's performing, they'll look at the future pipeline, how much money we've invested, the types of games we've invested in. So those are the sorts of things that they'll be looking at. Gosh, Jack, another question. Can you make the buyback even bigger? The cash balance will still be nice after this buyback is complete and the stock is very cheap. Thank you for all your hard work. Thank you for that. Jack, yes, of course, we can make the buyback bigger. But we feel there's a lot of -- there are a lot of investment opportunities. Again, when you're getting 300% returns on your invested capital, you -- that's something -- it's hard not to allocate towards that. So we as a Board, felt this amount was the appropriate amount. As you know, we had a GBP 4 million buyback earlier this year, which completed by the end of August. There's another GBP 4 million buyback. I'm not sure how much more you want, Jack. But yes, we -- as you can tell, we're constantly assessing the right amount of money to buy back, but we feel this is appropriate for now. Mark, how do you propose to improve the revenue decline as a result of Tier 1 bank contract termination? Well, Mark, good question. But now that the -- so the Tier 1 bank termination was in July last year. I think it was when I was in Cornwall, I'm actually in my holiday. So that is the first half. So the first half comp first half was the difficult comp versus first half this year. So that difficult comp is no longer there, which is good. So the sort of revenue declines you've seen in the past won't occur in the future because we won't have the difficult comp. And then now it's about focusing on what's working, as you saw earlier, the software side is growing exceptionally well. We're winning new contracts elsewhere and it's about winning with our partners with our -- we've got very, very substantial partners and ensuring they're successful, if they're successful, then we'll be successful. So that's what we're focused on. Vishal says -- Vishal, Sean comes with a solid background on what has been the impact he has made, albeit it's early days. Additionally, as he got a holding in TruFin plc was primarily incentivized on Playstack performance. He is -- sorry, it's moving around. He has got a fantastic background. He's a fantastic individual. I know he's been a great help to Harvey, and they work very well together. He's been a great help to me. He's been a great help to our Board. And although we have Penny Judd on the Board, he's also on the Board of Everplay, who has got deep knowledge of that sector. Sean has got real hands-on experience. So he has made an impact and he's going to be helping guide us as Playstack is now a very significant part of TruFin, it's important that we have that deep knowledge at the TruFin level as well as at Playstack level. I don't believe -- don't quote me on this. I'll get back to you, Vishal. I don't believe he's got a holding in TruFin plc. But there are -- there is a plan in place to incentivize him at the TruFin level because there's conflicts, as you can imagine otherwise. So that's something that we'll be making some form of announcement on. But yes, he's very much going to be -- we're really excited to have him on board. We're very sad to see Paul go. He's been an incredible addition to the Board. Paul Dentskevich, a great assistance to me and to the whole Board, but we feel Sean is going to be really value add when it comes to Playstack going forward. David says, can I ask about Oxygen incremental margin looks particularly high this half and a strong full year results '24. How do we think about this and what EBITDA margins could be going forward? So there's a lot of questions here, so I'll just answer that one quickly. That is -- and we do -- thank you very much. Yes, we do see Oxygen's EBIT and EBITDA margins growing. We've said to people, think of the -- as a mature EBITDA margin of Oxygen at a mature state, which is many years out in the future at sort of circa 50%. So that's where you expect that business to go. On Playstack, do you disclose how the revenues -- again, all these questions from David. On Playstack, do you disclose how the revenues are split between you and the game developer, really trying to work out the difference in gross and net revenue. Well, we don't on each individual contract for lots of sensitive reasons. But just the industry works like this, David, GBP 100 of revenue, most game publisher contracts are 60-40 in favor of the developer after the invested capital is returned. Usually, it's 50-50 on platform deals. So where the publisher gets a large contract with Xbox or GamePass or PlayStation or Apple or whatever it is, that's usually split 50-50. So that's roughly where the market is. And all those numbers are -- every contract is different. So hopefully, that gives you a feel for that. Satago's motivation to buy this out? Is it on the strength of the Sage deal? Or is there a potential to sign bigger bank deals? Wondering why someone would sell if there was a big deal in the pipeline. No one sold their shares. They just didn't participate in the -- Tier 1 bank did not participate in the new funding round. So they didn't sell, just note that. And our motivation to fund this is it was part of our cash flow forecasting this year that we would fund it. We see -- as we said earlier, we see there's a lot of potential at Satago and we and others see the potential at Satago. And yes, we've had to go through this very unpleasant restructuring for everyone involved, but we do see a real potential Satago. [ Breakthrough '26 ] thinking mainly about plays out, do we know the number of games to be released? Yes, 8, you should be listening in, David, or an idea of what Mortal Shell II, might do. We said at the fundraise when we raised money for Mortal Shell 2, the rough figures, we sold 1 million units of Mortal Shell I at $20. That was a game built by 4 people. It was 8 hours long. So 8 hours long game cost $20, 1 million people played it. No one ever heard about Mortal Shell before. Mortal Shell II, where we now have a very loyal following, Mortal Shell II, we said we expect to do circa 1.5 million units. The first game was 8 hours. This game is going to be 30 hours in excess of 30 hours. So the price point will be higher at the time we said the game priced around $40. So $1.5 million -- 1.5 million units at $40 is what you should be thinking. But that hasn't changed since 18 months ago. And our confidence level in that has grown since then because now we're well into the development phase. So hopefully, that gives you a feel for Mortal Shell II. Neubauer, can you give any color on capital allocation and the decision to buy back more, given the already sizable return to date? Yes, we have excess capital. We feel the shares of TruFin are undervalued. Otherwise, we wouldn't be buying them back. And we are -- as I mentioned earlier, we are investing heavily in Playstack, in Oxygen, in Satago. Oxygen is returning capital to us now. Playstack, we have GBP 10 million invested in external developments by the end of this year, GBP 16 million by the end of next year, and that's despite $10 million coming back to Playstack as once Mortal Shell launches the first $10 million -- well, there's a slight split to it, think of it as the first $10 million comes back to Playstack. So there's been an awful lot of capital cash coming back to Playstack and yet we're investing heavily in that. And despite our cash flow forecasting for the next 24 months shows that we have the excess capacity and ability to buy back shares. So we think it's the right thing to do with our capital. And Nigel, I'm concerned about Satago. What is the cost of increasing the equity investment I've seen from Lloyds and what valuation does this imply for Satago today? We're not going to say, Nigel, I can see why you might be concerned because of the short-term revenue decline. But we -- yes, you've got to trust us that we know what we're doing. And we have -- we're not going to say how much extra equity we put into the business. And no, we didn't buy the shares from Lloyds. We just -- sorry, as you mentioned, Lloyds, we didn't buy the shares from the Tier 1 bank. We just put money in and then they didn't, and they got diluted as a result. And what valuation does that imply, that's not something we're going to talk about. It's not public information. Vishal says the overall gaming sector? Again, Vishal, is coming back to life. What your view is driving that. In addition, it's likely consideration activity accelerates given the backdrop, will Playstack retains organic focus and how does the company protect itself from opportunistic activity? Well, going back to front, we're not here to protect ourselves from opportunity activity. If someone wants to come and buy Playstack, you know what, as we've always said, and it's on TruFin's website, we buy businesses that are unprofitable or profitable. We look to grow them and then we sell them. And that's what we're going to do. And that's one of the options. There are a lot of options, but that's very clear. And that basically means we're open for business. And we're very clear about that. So we're not trying to protect. What we're trying to do is build the best business that we possibly can. And that's what Harvey and his team are doing at Playstack and that's the focus, not distracting them with other sort of options. In terms of organic focus, yes, we are growing organically, as you can tell fast. We are also looking at and exploring. There are -- have been and will be lots of small incremental potential acquisitions. We made one in the form of Magic Fuel a few years ago. Where it makes an awful lot of strategic sense or there's really good financial rationale, we will -- we might look to make that sort of acquisition. We're not in discussions with anyone meaningfully right now in terms of us acquiring another business, but that's something we absolutely might do. And back to your original -- the first point about what's driving the overall gaming sector. Well, post COVID -- during COVID, there was a glut. There's everyone was at home gaming. And if you remember back then and doing other things, but gaming is one of the things that people were doing. So there was a sort of super return, super normal return on gaming companies at that time. That money, I would say, a lot of it was invested very unwisely. There was a lot of money, rush of capital go and build all these other games that launch that maybe should never have been built. That -- and there was also a big hiring spree that went on during and post-COVID. Obviously, what happened then is everyone goes back to normal, return to normal, games set to return back to its long-term upward trend. But nevertheless, the blip is sort of smoothed out. So these companies then overextend themselves, maybe built games they shouldn't have built. There was an enormous number of games that came to the market in '24 -- '23 and '24. And because there's a game cycle, you want to build a game now, it doesn't launch tomorrow, it launches in 2 or 3 or 4 years' time. So a lot of that capital, which maybe went into games that should not have been built, many of those games have been released. And you just don't find out how many people have been sadly made redundant in the space. So a lot of the companies that were profits warning because their cost base was -- weren't performing, they've significantly reduced their cost base. They've now got back to a more disciplined approach. And that is, as a result, that's driving profit upgrades rather than profit downgrades. And obviously, in that world, that's a world where the investors want to see. So that's what's happened in the industry. And we've come out the other side now, and that's why the valuations are rising. We've got a much more sustainable level. The number of businesses that are out there that have survived to sort of cull are in a much better state than they were post-COVID. And that's why the industry is improving, and valuations are improving. Fraser says, what's the expected revenue range for games in 2026? I can't possibly say, Fraser, but because I'm not allowed to. But as you can tell, games that you might not think could do exceptionally every game has the ability to be a ballot or more. And that's what's exciting about this industry. And to do that, you don't need to invest more in invested capital. You don't need to build a new factory. You don't need to hire anyone else the game launches and then it's in the big bad world and virality takes over. Obviously, there's marketing, et cetera, that helps that. But -- so the range is unlimited upside. We have -- obviously, that's not how we think about our business sadly, we're more cautious in terms of our expectations for those games, but the upside is unlimited. And we've got, -- we -- as I said, about 50% of our revenue next year will be from the back book and then the other half will be from the new 8 games launched next year. So we've got modest expectations for those games, but we have -- internally, we've got very high hopes for the games as well. But again, trying to be trying to underpromise and over deliver. Rob says, could James explain the advantages to and realizing an upgraded version of Balatro if it's free to consumers? Well, yes, the advantage is that we have an incredibly loyal customer base in Balatro. And what we want to do and LocalThunk wants to do more importantly, because we're assisting him is to make Balatro the best game it possibly can be and to ensure that users get the best possible experience, whether you bought it today on Steam or Apple, you will have the best version of Balatro for the rest of your life. The advantage of doing that, yes, maybe short term, maybe we can make more money by doing Balotro 2 or something DLC. But the advantage is the loyalty on this user base is exceptional. The community is exceptional. The goodwill will be incredible. People will play the game more, tell them show it to their friends. They will create -- there will be financial benefits for doing that as well. And yes, clearly, short term, there may be ways to make more money from Balotro, but we are working hand-in-hand with the developer who's absolutely focused, and I admire him for this, is focused on making sure everyone who's bought Balotro has the best version of Balotro at their fingertips. And it's that sort of attitude that brings an incredible loyalty, which is something that is very special about that game. Vishal, hello again. On Oxygen, previously, you have backed away offers for the business as they were not at the level the Board felt reflected the value of the group. Is that still the eventual exit plan for auction given its cash generative nature? So we said many times in many different announcements that we are looking to realize value for our shareholders. That remains the case. Oxygen is an exceptional business. Every year that goes by, and every year, the EBITDA goes up, the business becomes more valuable, not just obviously as the people want to buy bigger businesses. There's more private equity businesses trying to buy a business with GBP 5 million to GBP 10 million EBITDA than GBP 0 to GBP 1 million EBITDA. And if you got more competition, the rating goes up, very simple. So we are open for business. That said, we are focused like with Playstack on developing and building the best business possible and showcasing that business to people via the various press releases we do on Oxygen. Where we have a whole list of people that are interested in Oxygen, and we keep them informed. But as I said once before, business is the best -- you get the best price when someone buys your business, not when you try to sell your business. So we are -- it is cash generative. It is returning money to the group. The group is therefore able to do buybacks as we've announced again today. But at some point, this business, people -- someone will realize the value -- the true value of this business and offer us the right the right price for it, and we'll be coming to you and asking you what you think when they do. Nigel, do you perform peer group valuation analysis on Playstack versus competitors such as Frontier development, appreciating Playstack is an indie game developer? We do. We absolutely do; we've got our own internal analysis of Playstack relative to others. We don't compare ourselves to Frontier. It's a very different business model. But look at the financials and look at the EBITDA margin, look at the return on invested capital that we achieve, et cetera, Nigel, and you'll see that not comparing us to Frontier development or Everplay or anyone, but we're doing -- we're very, very pleased with our performance. And we know there's a lot more to do. So we focus on ourselves and doing the best we possibly can, producing the most enjoyable games for gamers worldwide. And we do that, then the valuation analysis, et cetera, will take care of itself. But yes, we do obviously we follow the other companies closely. Vishal says a tough year for Satago. Can you shed light on the morale within the group and new business pipeline? Yes, it has been a tough year for Satago. And the end of last year was also tough. From the day we lost the Tier 1, or the Tier 1 bank contract was terminated was tough. No one, if you've ever been in a business where there has been significant headcount costs, that is not -- the morale of that business is never better than a business that's growing. So it's clearly -- there's no point sugarcoating. It's not -- the morale at times has been lower than we would like it to be. And -- but clearly, for those who are no longer part of Satago, it's even worse. So let's not feel sorry for ourselves for those remaining. And now at least we're at a point where we've done -- we've made the very difficult decisions. We've rightsized the business very quickly. It's not that there's no more cuts coming. That's it. We -- the group here is the group going forward. And that's, I think, a very -- I know myself having as younger working in organization that has rightsized is when you're one of the remaining ones, that's a very -- that's a much better place to be than having a guilty hanging over your head, worrying that there might need to be more redundancies. So we made drastic decisions. It was the right thing to do, and that allows the group to rebuild. And yes, there is a very healthy new business pipeline. Yes. So we're -- there's lots to do, but we're excited about the future for Satago. Michael says, how long do you anticipate until either Oxygen or Playstack is listed as a pure play to achieve full valuation? Thank you, Michael. Look, I don't anticipate -- I mean, we never said either of them would be listed as a pure play to achieve good valuation. There's an awful lot of benefits to the businesses in the past being sheltered within TruFin. But yes, both of them are getting to a point where if shareholders are not my company, it's you are the shareholders of the company. It's up to the shareholders to decide the future of Oxygen, Playstack. But clearly, you can look from the numbers, these businesses are doing exceptionally well. So that's obviously always an option, but that's something that is ultimately up to our shareholders. Michael -- sorry, someone sent there -- another question from another Michael. Auctions is reaching a point where it could become very attractive to PE funds on the basis of the price was right, would you consider divesting auction? Yes, I think I'd say it is already very attractive to PE funds. And on the basis price is right, would you consider divesting? Absolutely. Nigel, how is the DFCH partnership progressing with Satago? The partnership is progressing well. Thank you. Lots to do still, as always, with all partnerships. And by no means is the -- I mean DFC is an exceptional business, just a little nod to Carl, the CEO there and what he's built in DFC. There's obviously also lots of other banks that we are progressing and talking with. We've got a small team now, lots to do but the partnerships between Satago and all its partners are progressing well. Thank you very much, Nigel.

That's great. James, if I may just jump back in there, thank you for addressing all those questions from investors today. And of course, the company can review all questions submitted today, and we will publish those responses on the Investor Meet Company platform. But James, before I redirect investors to provide you with their feedback, which I know is particularly important to the company, could I please just ask you for a few closing comments?

Yes. Thanks, Alex. Well, I think to summarize what I already said, which is we had an exceptional, we had a great year last year. We've had an exceptional first half this year, a wonderful start to the second half. We've got a very strong balance sheet, hence, the buyback. We're investing aggressively in the businesses, so we're not compromising them in any way. And yes, the fact that we're buying back shares hopefully gives you some indication of where we see the value in the business. Hopefully, that's -- and look forward to doing this again. Thank you for hosting us, Alex.

Fantastic. Thank you very much, James. Thank you for updating investors today. Could I please ask investors not to close this session as you'll now be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order that the Board can better understand your views and expectations. This will only take a few moments to complete, and I'm sure will be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of TruFin plc, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good morning to you all.