TTK Prestige Limited ($517506)

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the TTK Prestige Limited Q4 FY '26 Earnings Conference Call, hosted by AMBIT Capital. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Yash Jin from Ambit Capital. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, sir. Hello, everyone. Welcome to TTK Prestige Q4 FY '26 Earnings Call. From the management side today, we have Mr. [indiscernible], Managing Director and CEO; Mr.[indiscernible], rose to the Board; and Mr. [indiscernible], Director and CFO. Over to you sir for my opening remarks.

Good morning. This is Shannon here. Before I hand over the proceedings to our managing director, Mr. Venkatesh, I just want to remain the participant -- in the discussions today may contain certain statements, which are futuristic in nature. Such statements prerepresent intentions of the management and the efforts being put in by them to realize the certain goals. The success in realizing these goals depends on various factors, both internal and external. Therefore, the investors are requested to make their own independent judgments by considering all relevant factors before taking any investment decision. Thank you. Over to you, Venkatesh.

Thank you. Good afternoon. Let me start with an overview of the overall economy and then to specific to the industry. Like by now, we would have seen across categories in industries. The quarter has been a little volatile. -- volatile in terms of geogritical tension in terms of supply chain disruptions and also in terms of rising raw material prices across industries. We've also seen a little bit of tempering on different industries on demand as well. And this continues to be a sort of a concern as we get into the next few quarters as well. Specific to the industry, though, I would say that the quarter has been slightly different, particularly on the appliance side, driven by opportunities around the cook tops the current volatile scenario has sort of presented an opportunity for some of the appliance categories where consumers are replacing some of their existing categories at home with induction cooktops and so on. So that has sort of presented a very tactical short-term growth opportunity. And at an industry level, therefore, we've seen demand sort of perk up driven by some of these very specific interventions that have happened in the quarter. Overall, though, the pressure of the supply chain, the pressures of rising raw material prices and also the uncertainty of geopolitical tensions continue to weigh on this industry as well as it has been seen across the country. Overall, though, we do believe in the long term that -- the category seems to be having a robust demand and is being driven as in the past by a very strong replacement cycles in some of our kitchenware categories and a very smart adoption of appliance in some of the kitchen spaces as well. So the long term continues to be robust as we have maintained in the part. Short term, there are pressures around the tensions as we mentioned. The specific quarter of Q4 has been good for the industry, and it has been good, particularly for TTK Prestige as well. From a TTK Prestige perspective, we had a quarter growth of quarter 4 growth of around 14.4% for the domestic market. We had a little bit of a setback on the exports, given the scenario of disrupted supply chain, while we did have supply related or order-related demand generation, but we were constrained by the supply chain issues that we've had challenges that we had globally. So overall, the domestic performance of 14.4% and company level, 12.5% for the quarter. This, like I said, is driven by certain opportunities that we leveraged in the quarter. But also to say that the structural changes that we've been doing over the last few quarters has been also starting to yield results for the company. That is one of the killer linings that I would like to highlight thing as we move forward, these transformational changes will bear fruit continuously as we move. Our operating EBITDA is at INR 81.7 crores, a growth of 43.8%. Profit before tax is INR 71.9 crores, a growth of around [35.9%]. So the quarter overall has been a good financial quarter backed up by robust consumer demand and also seeing the impact of some of the initiatives that we've kicked started over the last few quarters as well. Those initiatives will continue to be invested upon continue to be scaled up, and that should be yielding good results as we know as well. We had specific exceptional expenses across some of the legal changes that we have to incorporate in terms of the new labor code, and that's been highlighted in the report as well. From a year perspective, we had a good year. We ended the year 9.8%. Again, a little bit of a dampening that happened because of our export business. But otherwise, overall domestic business at 9.8% and the company had 9.6 in operating EBITDA with a growth of 30% continues to do robustly well. The profit after tax at around INR 185 crores, so the 14%. So overall, a good robust year as well backed by a very solid performance in Q4 is the way I would put it. And we do believe that both internal changes as well as the market is giving us an opportunity to consistently perform well as we move forward. So that's the way I would sort of summarize it. overhang of some of these challenges continue to be there for the next few quarters. And we do hope that we would be able to sort of ride over them, tied up and move faster as we move forward. Thank you, and over to you for the questions.

[Operator Instructions] the First question is from the line of Sameer Gupta from IIFL Capital.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Firstly, sir, despite input cost inflation in major commodities, such as aluminum, steel, copper, we have seen a gross margin expansion this quarter. So just trying to understand what is driving this? Is it because appliances are particularly cooked us operate at a materially higher gross margin? Has the company taken price increases? If yes, can you quantify? Just can you provide some color on this aspect, sir?

So Q4 has not seen the impact fully of pricing. We did do a price increase towards middle of the quarter. The impact of that would be felt partially in Q4 and actually in Q1 I think the number that you see is a combination of our inventory -- internal inventory management. We do believe that the inventory management in the past has helped us, but that would be coming under pressure as we move forward. So the pricing that you see the margins that you see are not entirely reflective of the price changes that have been taken. -- pricings will be sort of reflecting in the coming quarters as we move. This is a combination of internal inventory management and also in terms of like we had mentioned, some of the categories were high gross margins, and they are picked up in the quarter as well. The product mix.

Yes. In addition to that, we have also taken a lot of initiatives on the cost reductions on our manufacturing side, our sourcing side as part of a long-term initiative. That is also giving us a good amount of improvement at the gross margin.

Got it, sir. Second question is on the appliances growth -- how much would this be excluding induction cooked ops? Or let's say, if you want to normalize for the frenzy that we saw in March quarter, what would be the growth? And is this momentum kind of continuing in 1Q? Or we have kind of seen a normalization to that aspect? Or do you think that this trend will continue till situations normalize globally?

So I think to answer your question, our clients in general, there has been an impact of induction cooktop. That is for sure. I would not -- I won't be able to quantify it at this point of time. But even without the impact of induction Kota, there's been a reasonable growth in the appliances side. So the category seems to be sort of bouncing back is the one that I would make. That's -- I think from a first question perspective. The second question, the -- there is a little bit of the trend continuing into the quarter as well. We're not too sure as to how long is this sort of movement. But we do believe that the impact -- current impact of the global volatility is still reflecting on some of the changes in the appliance one. We're only happy to see that the adoption of induction cooktop seems to be robust at this point of time. So I do believe that the -- this also has sort of helped drive the adoption of induction cooktops in the category, which may continue for a couple of more quarters. The industrial book down is generally at a flattish space, they've started to grow faster now.

Got it, sir. Last question, if I may squeeze in. What is the kind of inflation that the company is witnessing in the input cost basket in the current quarter post the Westech concept. So your input cost basket specifically, what kind of a growth or an increase you are seeing at this current future?

So at an average, we would say it's around 10%. We've seen increases in specific areas around 15% as well. Post to our scenario, there is a definitive increase of close to around 10%.

Got it. And we plan to mitigate this by entirely taking on price hikes? Or do you think that some margin pressure is going to come in?

We will look at more progress as we see it. We're also weighing it against the demand situation as well. So we would take the price hikes in accordance with what the market response is, but price hikes are inevitable.

[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of [indiscernible].

I just wanted to understand for the full year, what are the expenses for consulting engagements, which I think you called out a couple of quarters back, I just want to understand how much would be that charge for the year? And how much would be the charge for the coming financial year.

See, we have been engaging not just 1 consultant. We are engaging with multiple people, not consultant experts in various areas. We have already called out some of those expenses. Not fully will be the consultant related, all the related expenses on the long-term strategy we have called out separately. -- both in the financials, what has been presented as well as the investor and analysts. As we have indicated before, we will be spending close to around INR 200 crores in the 3-year period, which we started in Q4 of last -- Q4 of FY '24, '25 this will go on for another few more quarters. These expenses will be incurred. This will be in various forms may not be a consultant. It will be in various other forms as well as we move forward. But we are -- as we need, we are spending those monies.

And actually, getting to the next year, what would be the key priorities for the company in terms of product innovation, second in terms of chat and the third in terms of cost rationalization?

So what you see today, as I mentioned, there is a clear focus in all the 3 aspects that you mentioned. The product portfolio very clearly is one of our main strengths of this growth as we display it right now. So 2 aspects of it. One, clearly looking at superior design, superior innovations in the product portfolio. As of today, -- we've also now sort of leading all categories where we are strong. We've been able to lead in terms of both innovation and in terms of the spread of the product as well. So products continue to be the fulcrum of our growth driven by innovation, driven by design and a lot of investments that have gone particularly into our R&D as well. We opened our new innovation center for design and appliances -- we've invested further into our existing R&D infrastructure for Kitchenware as well. So product continues to be a very clear strategic choice that we have made. And that will -- you will see it play across multiple categories, not just in terms of specific innovations but across the depth and width of the category as well, leveraging our distribution more that we have. In terms of cost, like our CFO mentioned, we kickstarted a lot of cost initiatives over the last 4, 5 quarters, some of it which we are seeing reflecting in the gross margins as we look at it today, some which will continue to get reflected as we move forward, a very specific targeted focus on cost in and around not just their raw materials or not just around procurement, but around processes, but around the overall P&L aspects of the business. So these 2 are clear sort of distinguished markers that we've been able to bring them together. We've always been an omnichannel focused company, be it e-commerce, be it quicker, be it large format stores or general trade. Our current growth are a result of our turnaround that we can very clearly see around general rate and also consolidating our leadership position, both in large format stores and e-commerce as well. Quick commerce is a new addition to the portfolio. We've done reasonably well in e-commerce, and we do believe amongst the -- we are leading the path in eCommerce as well. So I think combination of product cost as well as investment into the right capability building that we need to do, that remains the fulcrum of the organization with a very clear omnichannel focus.

Got it. And the Prestige exclusive , what's the kind of growth you expect in the coming years?

Especially inclusive continues to be our competitive mode, I would say, a competitive differentiation for us. It helps us leverage direct contact with the consumer to understand what a consumer insight at a business level, it contributes close to around 12% to 15% of our business and continues to be growing robustly in double digits. So I think the channel is leveraged well. We are close to around 700-plus stores now, and we continue to add more stores in different geographies. So the channel continues to be a very strategic importance for us and is levered getting leverage for its growth opportunities as well.

Got it. And the cookware are actually across the segment that has actually grown higher, can you just call out 2 or 3 product innovations in cookware, which has actually led to a strong growth for the last year?

Cookware is being driven by 2 or 3 specific levers that I would say. One, very clearly, the new material cookware, which is centered around [Senesteel, Tripla, Casten, ] a lot of these materials have sort of got launched. We have actually, like I mentioned, strengthened our portfolio, expanded our portfolio, both in depth and width. And that is one of the driving choices for the cookware growth. And that, I believe, would continue -- so it's a sort of an accelerated demand generation that is being driven by innovation around new material. And while we were late initially, in the last 1, 1.5 years, we've been sort of leading the category in terms of innovation across all material formats in the categories. So that, I think, is 1 important aspect of why cookware continues to grow. The second is, there's a lot of new innovation that's coming in around the ceramics, and that seems to be sort of leveraging replacement or leveraging expanding the nonstick category as well. Ceramic seems to be on a growth stack and that's being leveraged. So these are 2 reasons why I would say that the quick wire category on a growth trajectory and will continue to be so. e-commerce seems to be leveraging as a channel, e-commerce seems to be leveraging cookware very strongly, and that's 1 of the growth levers as well.

Got it. And 1 question regarding [cooker. So what is the broad -- there has been a trend of movement towards stainless from aluminum cookers, is that things still visible and what kind of mix is there in terms of aluminum/steel cooker. And this -- I mean, are all the cookers also moving towards induction-based cookers, so that, that gives us a higher AFP.

Our product country is all induction based. So we have taken the call a couple of years ago proactively. So all our product portfolios at large are induction based. -- cooker that the category for the industry has moved towards 50% to 55% of stainless steel versus around 45% of aluminum. This happened industry-wide as well. So I think the movement of stainless steel has already happened in cooker. And that is also one of the reasons the cooker category will continue to see a reasonably good growth for the next couple of years.

Got it. And all the accessories in terms of consumables, that is all in the others. That's how you call out, for example, the cooker, washers, et cetera?

Yes, it is all part of the others.

[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of [Nikhil Upadia from SIMPL. ]

Congrats on good set of numbers. Two questions. One is on the competition aspect, like, as you said, in e-commerce and quick commerce, -- we are doing well anginas worked out well for -- are you seeing incremental more competition coming in, in the scent category? And is the competition coming on pricing or -- is the competition or even other branded players now focusing more on innovation later than pricing. So how the market and players is focused changing in the industry? And how is the consumer focus changing? That is one. Secondly, sir, like, as you said, GT has grown well for us -- and so would you say this trend of change in the growth rates and the GT was happening for a few quarters now? Or is it like something which you have seen in this quarter only. Some sense on -- is this a brand which was playing out and has accelerated now? Or is it just target today like from this quarter on.

So GPA in my view, general trade, I think, has been more specific to the company. The overall pressure on general day has always been there, given the aspects of large format stores and e-commerce being very aggressive on growth. I do believe that there's a little bit of a growth rebound that's happened in generally, but I would sort of look at it generally growth has been very specific to the initiatives that we have taken at a company level. increase to distribution and sort of distribution hiking and other related work that has happened in generic. So my sense is general trade continues to be a little bit of a at an industry level continues to be a little bit of a lag compared to large product stores or e-commerce. It's been very specific for us, and I think that is quite heartening for us that some of our initiatives are bearing fruit. And we do believe that will last like we said we're investing in a couple of initiatives that should help us get the growth forward as well. That's from a general rate perspective. In terms of new brands, I would say any category or any industry that attracts new brands intensively means that the potential to grow it faster and therefore, I would believe that we are in the right set of categories of growth. because competition is also one of the right indicators to say if the category is attractive enough to grow. So I think the category growth is robust, and that's probably sort of attracting a lot more new players into the category as well, particularly in cooker, a, in Kitchenware and cooker, in particular, and a little bit of small domestic appliances. Most of these players have come in on the weight of pricing. while 1 or 2 players have looked at it from an innovation perspective, but I think a large number of players are coming from pricing and from a D2C model of being able to aggressively invest into the e-commerce channel. But at a profitability level, how long will this last? How long will this sort of -- how will it pan it out. We will have to wait and see depending on how the whole thing moves out. So our belief is -- the category is growing good enough to absorb this competitive intensity at this point of time. We are not too worried about it. What we are more focused on is the consumer. And like I said, we are focused on our product portfolio. We are focused on a product design so that we have the rightful share of our market. And the focus is more on consumer channel, letting competition do as what they would -- what they're expected to do. Currently, this space is not so big. We do believe that, that space is not too big for us to immediately sort of worry about, but we keep our eyes on it. But our larger focus is very clearly on leveraging the category trends like upgrades, like I said, material led upgrades that are happening in cookware, smartification of kitchen that's happening to smart politic appliances -- that is what we are more focused on and bringing in more innovation into the picture.

Okay. And just one follow-up. In many similar categories on household side, what we have seen is that when competition came in and like by [indiscernible] the gross margin or the profitability economics of the category got impacted. And every player started focusing more on premiumization and had to get out of the low-end segments to retain the economics and all -- are you seeing such a scenario panning out in kitchens as a category? Or are you saying even at the low end, the economics are still good enough for someone to play.

So our belief is there are 2 different segments, and we've maintained this in the past as well. The category that we play in very clearly, we do see 2 different consumer segment-led opportunity. One at the price point and the product positioning the prestige that the brand has got -- the second is there is a large market that's opening up a Tire 2, i3 tons, driven by a set of unbranded players and conversion from branded to unbranded by a set of few players. Specific to your question, I think both the opportunities are mutually exclusive in our mind. And if playing well, they can be played. We do play in the mass segment with just but that's only to a limited extent, but we pay it as an independent level. So we do not -- so we don't see the pressure of margins getting impacted because of that, and I think it needs to be placed independently. Both have their own P&L structures that can be played upon.

So just last question. So if you look at -- and I'm not asking to share the numbers or anything, but if you look at [judge P&L ] versus the TTK Prestige's brands P&L would both be at an equivalent gross margin or an EBITDA margin would be similar? Or how 1 should think about it?

So I think it will be too early for us to comment on that at this point of time. Over a period of time, we definitely believe that judge as a brand would have its independent standing in terms of P&L as well. Right now, I think it's too early for us to comment.

Next question is from the line of [Puneet from SJ Investments.]

A little late to the call. So if you are repeated, sorry for that. So in terms of exports, we had a focus and last time you mentioned that, again, you're not focusing again. Could you explain on the broad sense are we trying to become an exporter of these white label products? Or we are just focusing on the domestic play right now.

Currently, our priorities on domestic play. We continue to maintain the exports business. We're not dropping the business. We continue to maintain it. And before the current scenario, we were growing at 20%, 22% on a smaller scale. So that growth on a smaller scale will continue to happen. But very clearly, our priority is the domestic market.

And sir, in domestic market to apart from cookware, as you already mentioned, what are the segments you are seeing traction from, let's say, smaller [plans.] How is the overall category. Because you've experienced significant growth and so did your peers? I'm just trying to understand why is the selling process just because of GST? Or is it because of the [BIS ] norms and other things also.

Overall demand generation is happening. Quarter 4 has been very specific to the interventions that happened around the cooktops and certain related economic-related constraints that people had an effort have to shift appliances. But at an overall level, if you have to look at our appliance business is growing at 10%, and the kitchen business is growing at 10%. So I think the growth has been robust for both the categories. Appliances is being led by small domestic appliances, innovations around small domestic appliances. And also in terms of some of the premiumization that's happening in the other categories as well. So our plans, I would say, is anchored around premiumization at large. Kitchenware is anchored around a lot more replacement acceleration that's happening around cookers and cookware.

So basically, right now, what about the little -- so I think we primarily small and medium-sized appliances side. So has there been -- so what is the overall test then? Are we just focusing on let's say, INR 5,000 segment? Or what is the overall brand like at this point of time, the small appliances when you mean premium.

Small appliances are not defined by the price point. They are defined by the utility basis. For example, we wouldn't consider [indiscernible] a small appliance. That's an independent category, coaster, cattle, air trials. So a lot of new appliances are coming. though the induction cooked -- sorry, induction cooktops have been kept a separate category. So these are the small domestic appliances that I would say.

Understood. So in terms of appliances, apart from [indiscernible] and indexing to all of them fall into the smaller market.

Yes.

Understood. So do you expect this 10% to growth continue? Or do you think that you can make it a little higher based on the price increases in the premiumization segment?

We would love to, but I think it's too early for us to comment. But always, we are also ready for growth.

Understood, sir. And in terms of the retail strategy, could you elaborate on how the execution was because you are quite aggressive in the last few calls that we want to grow substantially national account. So in terms of store count or, let's say, franchisee onboarding, how are we doing right now?

So we are on track with that plan. We continue to grow faster, both in terms of top line as well as in terms of the infrastructure expansion as well. So we've opened around 100 new stores. So we continue to keep expanding the footprint of our exclusive stores, and they are some of the significant growth driver for us as we continue into the next few quarters as well.

Understood, sir. So -- but are there any specific markets you're targeting right now? Or we satiated already in terms of stores?

It's an and play. We've got stores all across the country. So rather than a country play, we go by towns and we go by potential localities as well. So it's R&D.

So is that -- are you entering more into Tier 2, Tier 3? Or how is it like? So you're mentioning that? Because in Tier 1, I think they're already fairly prominent, right? So I'm just trying to understand which markets are we able to grow these numbers.

We will sort of give you that as we move forward. Right now, I think I would not like to sort of discuss that in this call right now.

Understood, sir. So on a broad base, in terms of profitability, do you think this is the level we'll probably maintain that? Or do you think we can -- we can grow faster than the revenue as the economies of scale kick.

No, we would -- while I don't want to sort of give a guidance on this, we continue to invest into capabilities and product capabilities and other related ones, like we had mentioned, we have a plan of INR 200 crores over 3 years. and also capital deployment of close to INR 300 crores, both in terms of OpEx and CapEx, we are now investing and that will continue for at least a year or so plus. So I think we would not want to give any guidance on that, but Suffice to say that enough and more investments are being done to drive the top line growth harder.

Just one clarification on, let's say, our capability building. So how much part of our, let's say, production is outsourced today? And is there any benchmark we would like to reach in terms of in-sourcing to gain margin or, let's say, more control over our supply chain?

So our [indiscernible] is in-sourced. We have our own manufacturing facilities for kitchenware. As far as appliances are concerned, we have exclusive partners and innovate their intros. -- the partners are external, but they are exclusive drugs in terms of our production capabilities. And therefore, I would say the hybrid of installed go outsourced more towards in-sourcing, given our investment in them in terms of processes quality. Over the last few quarters, we've invested in quality systems with them. So I think we believe that it's a combination of in-sourcing and outsourcing, but with very clear focus and ownership on quality on the product as well as the design. So to that extent, I think we would not sort of look at complete outsourcing. It is a combination of outsourcing with process control and quality control, it remains with the company.

Understood, sir. But when you meant since already branded such high regard in the market, you're able to do this. So why do we even need to deploy the INR 200 crores or INR 300 crores we have in mind in terms of capability building. We can just ask let's say, an exclusive vendor to come up with the facility and all of that, right?

No, no, no. So okay. So I got to respond to you from a manufacturing footprint perspective. in terms of people and in terms of processes, we substantially increased our internal capabilities and these investments have gone into our internal capabilities around R&D infrastructure around design, infrastructure and people around marketing investments and also around understanding channel leverance is better given that we are an omnichannel partner. So I think the brand, like you mentioned, is quite strong, but to do justice to the brand I think some of the capabilities have to be sort of enhanced and that's the work that's happening right now.

Okay. So as I understand it, in terms of capability and now it's more into people, let's say, process rather than just manufacturing facility, right?

Yes. Manufacturing, we have invested on CapEx expansions in some of the factories. It will be across. It's not just in 1 particular area. We are doing it what is good for the organization. We are doing it across.

Understood, sir. So -- but won't be spending a little more on, let's say, manufacturing improved margins? Like I understand that since we already have quite semi-premium player, and we also have the margins already. Why doesn't it make sense in terms of expanding our footprint to gain margins and other things.

So we are doing that. We are doing that. So 1 of the reasons you see the gross margins becoming steady or increasing is also because, like I mentioned, a lot of initiatives have gone into process corrections at the manufacturing level as well. So I think we are well ceased of that opportunity.

Got it, sir. And just a little more clarification regarding our operational expenditure where you wanted to spend you cited basically almost half and half in terms of capability versus OpEx side. So I was wondering OpEx we would exactly go? Would it be more inventory on a channel so that it's an experiment? Or would it be giving more credit there so that we get a high -- we get easier traction in the general trip -- or is something..

Some of these things are very confident in the competition sensitive, so we don't want to discuss that over a call like this. But what we are ensuring that is it is deployed at the right area, which, as I was mentioning before, which is going to give the company a long-term standing.

Got it. so this -- so as I understand it, you want to become more, let's say, premiums over going time while maintaining volumes than just growing volumes. Is that a fair understanding?

I think some of the things, I think, we will not be able to discuss on our open call. We are doing what is right for the organization. That's much [indiscernible] I can tell you.

[Operator Instructions] Next follow-up question is from the line of [indiscernible].

from the ad spend point of view, what kind of budget you planned for FY '27. And what was this for FY '26, given the fact that there is almost 30% of the products are due in nature, and I'm sure you will be standing or increasing the budget for advertising both below the line and above the [indiscernible]

We don't want to give any guidance in this regard. I think we will not be able to share what we want to -- what's going to be our budget for the next year, as Mr. Bikash has already mentioned before, waiting for growth. We look at what best we will be able to do is definitely do.

What is the amount for FY '26?

On what?

On advertising sales and promotion?

No, that is again the guidance. We will not be able to give that out.

Last year. Concluded year.

Yes. Yes, normally, we spend anywhere between 5% to 6%. That is the number that we normally spend.

And in terms of the multiple facilities we have and there has been a round of reduction in workforce and there has been an increase in automation, et cetera. Can you just help me understand what kind of utilization you are operating across your facilities at a gross level. And in terms of growth, do you actually need additional expenditure towards any of your facilities?

Like we said, we've been continuously investing on CapEx. The Kitchenware would probably be operating at 85% plus the appliances operate similarly at around 75% to 80%. And we continuously keep expanding, where quite recently, we had invested in our pipeline facility for our cookware in [indiscernible]. So that expansion continues to happen. It is based on volume projections and we do believe that in the next 2 years, we will find CapEx expansion happening in cooker, in particular, and also across the appliances as well. So we are well positioned to capture any demand sudden demand short up that south can happen. And CapEx is also being planned over the next 2 years.

Got it. And you mentioned that 3 categories, which is ceramic [indiscernible] and cash item, these are pulling up growth in the cookware. Is it in the range of more than 20% at an industry level, not especially for you because 1 can see that even across all the other players. Are B3ingsgrowing at a very, very healthy [indiscernible]. And what is the industry growth for these 3 categories? Yes, it was...

Yes. These categories are growing at 20% plus.

And one last question from my side. There has been -- because of GST, there has been some channel filling, et cetera. Now has it been any growth that actually shifted from Q3 to Q4, because of that? And second, whether all the channel inventory has been normalized as we speak now.

The channel inventory is normalized. Not much of impact because of GST in the Q4 performance as well. So I think we are on -- there are no specific inventory-related challenges or inventory-related normalization to be done for the quarter.

The next follow-up question from the line of Praneeth from SJ Investments.

Just 1 for the follow-up again. So I was wondering, so I understand that right now the last year and this next 2 to 3 years, we're likely to invest in our cross-sell people and all of it as margins are compressed. But do you think in the next 4 years, can you get back to our older margins of around 13%? Or when do you think we can get back to our old margin base?

See, as we had mentioned even in the previous quarters, I think in the next few quarters, we'll have the investments we are getting in, so there will be a different EBITDA margin. Our expectation is once these investments are done and then once we start seeing the results out of these investments, we should get back to our earlier margin of around 13%, 14%. That's our target. We are working towards that.

And these investments will probably go to the next 2 more so? Or is it takes a few quarters.

I don't know -- on most part 2 more years, yes.

[Operator Instructions] As there are no further questions from the participants. I now hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments.

Thank you for an engaged question. We look forward to. Many more good quarters as we move forward and happy to see some of these initiatives bearing fruit as well. And we look forward to some of these volatilities curving down so that business can come back to normal. So thank you. And once again, thank you for a good session. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. On behalf of AMBIT Capital, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.