TVS Motor Company Limited (532343) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

The Chairman and the Board saying that you are here is the destination, there's a way. Nothing much. Execution is a different type of -- but everywhere so far our understanding is very clear, consumers are beyond [indiscernible] so you get every aspect of what our customer experience, customer liking or whatever you talk about, you can [ calibrate ] once you get it right, the top line starts to grow. We are a firm believer that it's not that client, there is more [indiscernible]. When I go to -- please come. Customer doesn't know technology. Even yesterday, I met 1 iQube customer, I asked him, so this is exactly like Jupiter, sir. I can take the intel family, I said how many people? Five people. Okay. Myself, I have 3 gigs. That is broad also, sir. Very good. I think are [indiscernible] no problem, Sir. Any flight over any grade in it flies, no problem. So in his mind, that gives user many digital insults like the smartphone. So there is -- that their mind is very simple. Sometimes they become engineers, we start looking at technology and say that look we have to complicate it, no. So exactly what is designed in iQube is that. But you completely understand that there are set of customers, very young, very aspirational. We look at -- do you have these business technologies in this because they know the technology, they can argue. For example, if you look at my RR Ratan customers, I have to be very clear that my sales boy or sales girl matches the knowledge of that person because he will have his own cards. He will have certain high-end experience. So he is buying the vehicle for certain technology which you want to but when I look at iQube or when I look at Jupiter, the very common consumer who is looking at total cost of ownership. And he said that it is matching in -- it's going to give me this, this benefit so depending upon the time of the customer, you have to make the trade-off. That's exactly what we have done.

Are you explaining why India has been very successful in each of the new categories, whether it is motorcycle, you gain market share across, in fact, probably, I would say, within one of the best auto companies in the last 5, 7 years. Gain market share in builders, motorcycles and scooters, now even with electric vehicles.

So that's primarily because of 2 things. One, the existing customers are very happy with me because the leakage doesn't happen. I have to make sure that my existing customers stay with me. There, I have to make sure that my service, my availability, the way I treat them is very good. On top of it, those people who are not considering me, keeps coming. That's where you get to our market share gets added. For that, you need interventions on products and technology and features and things like that, both you have to go into the balance today.

So far better product introductions, that's product development skills and understanding the consumer, am I heading right?

Absolutely.

2 points, sir.

Beside our existing customers keep delighting the segments where you are not there, bringing new products and new set of customers that helps you in gaining the market share, growing the business ahead of the industry, but that is fundamental. The top line doesn't grow, there's no line. And that is the way also, if you look at the stakeholders other than the customers, dealers, distributors, they want a better and better volume. Correct? Suppliers want better and better volume. Company wants better and better volume. So this is something across the intel supply chain differs on volume. Once you have volume, then the next question of, okay, how do you optimize the cost? What are the things we can look at commonization of all things that you're aging the sourcing including optimizing the marketing cost, and we do certain brands on digital, certain brands -- look at which are the target segments, all these opportunities are there. This is exactly what we have done.

More power to you. Sir, just to understand this, you sort have talked about feeding the supply chain. So as your volumes -- because see, you are making investment but more than probably your investments are supplier investment. Am I correct and this is an ancillarized business, right? So hundreds of parts coming from -- so the more scale you have, the more scale they have, right? And therefore, your economies of scale becomes better with greater scale because -- and sometimes, we wonder your margins at 10% relative to the others. Is it a factor of your investments relative to others? Are you more ancillarized, your gross growth to...

I won't say that because...

Are you less integrated than some of the others? That's why your margins are...

See, I don't want to comment about others because some people -- I know where you are coming from. Some people -- the depreciation is quarterly half of ours. Let me put it this way.

Let me answer this question. We are investing. That's why I made a position up so high.

Sure. See, there are many people here. India has got possibly 2 seasons or 3 seasons, New Year. Many of the areas, there is an April-May marriage season. And of course, Diwali season too. When you get into any part what you look for? Something new, right? So something new, something exciting. So if you are going to be a customer-oriented company, we are doing that. You can also keep flogging your existing brands and say, this is what I hear because by managing value for depreciation. I think -- and you can look at even maximizing your returns in the market.

I was going to that because...

My apologies. But in that process, what are you comprising? You may be compromising your market shares? You may be compromising your overall volume but you make it better and better, better on investment or EBITDA in the longer term?

How long?

We are a firm believer that there has to be a win win win with the customer, with the stakeholders. And I say stakeholders, already EV, it is going to be partners, or the version partner which [indiscernible] or any other infrastructure, okay? On this side, it's going to be consumers, through distributors or dealers. In international markets, maybe distributors. We have some partners on supply chain. It is not the content what you make in [indiscernible], I would say. That is a pure make-and-buy or make-or-buy decision. It can influence a little bit of what we talked about. But the basic, basic issue is volume.

Because of the flow-through of economies of scheme?

Beyond a point, if the top line is not going to account, you buy everything from outside also EBITDA is not detailed. I promised you that. So getting the product right, the customers have been delighted and growing ahead of the industry is going to [indiscernible]. And that's exactly what has happened to us. You know how we were at the EBITDA -- 5 years back, many of you have asked me, it's so many products but you are not gaining much or you're lagging behind. Now you yourself is confirming back to me that you are growing in all segments. The growth is there because customers love you. Customers see a lot of new things from you, new technology from, correct? So that is okay. Customer satisfaction is okay. And you have seen the gaining-power of results. Now if you look at the last possibly 4 quarters, 6 quarters, a lot of headwinds, but we are at 10%. Now the next question, is 10% good enough, okay? When you look at competition -- others, absolutely. Questions are very, very valid. But the choice of the strategy is, number one, customer never compromise. Number two, the intel end-to-end; number three, I'm pretty confident that in this journey, you will see better and better EBITDA going forward. Because this is a process. I mean the distributors, dealers and the company and everybody is happy. The first thing -- all other costs will get accounted over a higher volume maturely, correct? Then when you have, say, some brand doing 25,000, 30,000, 40,000 I can start looking at it. As a supplier, I gave you this capacity. Can I have one more? When one more comes automatically, you know what happens. No, there will be some competition. There will be some stretch. They say, okay, I'll give you this 2% lesser, 3% lesser. But this lesser, how much lesser, what stretch -- I think there is a good way of looking at because we don't want to compromise on the quality. And we do very good effort in looking at import content, how do we bring it down. How do we encourage many of the Indian suppliers, we used to have 20%, 25%, 24% has come to 7%.

International?

Import. And some of the Chinese suppliers, I think we made the make-plan here. [indiscernible], for example. Nobody was there in India at one of the subways to establish facility here. Not only many of the Indian suppliers have started. So it is possible through partnership, many things, but it requires time. It won't happen quarter-on-quarter, I can promise you. But we are not looking at...

They are also gauging the future with a 3- to 5-year view.

3 to 5 years, I promise you, you will see -- we will continue to grow the top line market share. Costs will come down. EBITDA will move up.

[indiscernible] any margins.

[indiscernible]

Are they in line with the sales or [indiscernible]

I am not so much worried about -- mathematically in the PowerPoint, everything was -- I think what we have to look at is not compromising on the investment for future, technology, brands, countries, marketing efforts because that is going to be the propeller of future growth.

Your huge investment that is sitting on the balance sheet you have done over a period of time, which is not traded out yet. Is it right way to assume so?

Let me put a little bit of -- okay? Four years back, 5 years back, the same questions we had on PT TVS credit service, IR investor. I don't think anybody of you have got any questions. All the best-managed retail financing companies is TVS Credit today. And book size is growing...

Across INR 16,000 crores now and a lot of capital adequacy is everything, collections very good. I have not provided for the last 4 months from [ NTS ] to that extent is robust.

We started off with only TVS Motor and 10% 2-wheelers.

Ultimately 20% for the overall business, 20% to 25%. The 75% comes from other sectors. So it's really a well-run business.

PT TVS, we started off. We have our own facility there, planned most of 40-year expense, now just 2 [ year ] expense, local people. We used to export 1,000 vehicles, now 10,000 per month. 3 wheelers, 2,000 per month. Huge opportunity to grow.

What are the gaps in the export market now? No one has got better experience apart from you [indiscernible]. What are the gaps left now?

Export market is plenty of opportunity, plenty because the size -- 65 million last year number, but don't go in last year. 2-wheelers are predominantly the kind of -- these are all developing markets that we're talking about. In the developing markets, if you look at it, similar challenges we have seen in our route, driver across LatAm, Middle East. The moment you come to urban area, you will see Indian, the motor rural and rural and huge up and with the education level going up there. The government's involvement in public infrastructure. And as of public transport, I think this 16 million has got a huge opportunity to grow, number one. Number two, we always used to have a big challenge of Chinese competition, 30% lower prices, 40% lower prices and even people used to tell me. I think the concept of total cost of ownership. It required some articulation okay, maybe $500, maybe $300 today. But this $500 means its durability will be life cycle. Life Cycle would be so much and net-net, you are going to save. Some people believe, some people don't. But today, I don't have a scale that whether it is TVS or Bajaj, people said that it is maha-superior [indiscernible]. So to me, sky is the limit. We should not compromise on durability, quality. And what TVS, especially did this, service. See what happens typically in a 2-wheeler. The first service is after 1,000 kilometers. India, after one month, we would normally use 30 kilometers per day. They have -- they use 200 kilometers per day because they don't -- they use it full time. 200 kilometers, how many days are serving? We make sure that we send the spare parts first, and we train all the service people there much before they need service done. So after 1 week, 2 weeks, if you don't have funds, then what will they do? You have certain comfort of anybody who has got a car or a 2-wheeler. You are asked to take a public transport. You look at their pain, especially in the morning. The time is -- the flexibility is used. I've seen people will get restless, 5 minutes you have and in Indian market, especially Bangalore longest, I can tell you, anybody wants, they will take only 3-wheeler or 2-wheeler, everywhere there's jump. It is not the distance. So every aspect of the consumer, when you look at it, I don't think there is any full potential, if you ask me. Huge, huge. Challenges, again, some countries, there will be having some forex problem.

But now that the tailwind is there at least on the oil price as...

The oil prices also will be stable. See, I always look at it this way. Some markets will go up, some markets will come down. For example, Sri Lanka is one of the best markets.

Iran used to be the best.

Iran used to be the best. I can give you list of the list. Myanmar used to be best. Three markets are not there for TVS, still we are doing more than 100,000. And before you joined, I think we have now put radar. Easily, I can sell them those up. I can take you to the next level because consumers are there. They're saying this is brilliant. This product connects with me and talk. So the product creation gives you that advantage, okay? Existing customers. See, here it's like too high. You take care of the existing customers, work with them closely on their total cost of ownership, service, parts, genuine availability, oil and everything. On the other side, create the new, new segments. It varies, okay? And it's not that every country will require the same product. Sometimes you have to, okay? India itself, somebody starts the very first with sweet, right? I can tell you a typical example of color. Kerala wears only black color. Okay?

Only red.

If I mix match, I have a problem. So why go to any country, I think India has got the best experience of which model, which color, which combination says in which state. Brilliant. The same principle you have to use in international market, whether you go to -- it's not Africa. It is Nigeria separate, India separate, Uganda separate, Ethiopia separate. I can spend -- I don't know, how many hours on that. What is the different nuances between the customer usage? So I always tell the people, put the customer at the center, don't worry. And sometimes it makes you a negative margin. Don't worry. The customer is happy. He will make it positive. Life after life, brand after brand, we have seen that. You tell them, hey, I won't increase, no problem, sir. Absolutely.

Usually in the export market, there's a 6, 7 years of experience, then you have a nonlinear significant tailwind, which comes in because people have gone through that 1 cycle resale at Chai, something is...

Your point -- I'm not be able to say the 5, 6 years. You have to be there, for example, if I put a dealership or some dealership -- people -- customers will say that TVS dealership, they will take care, that familiarity, that consistency, the same mechanic interacting that makes a huge difference.

So what is the usual duration?

That's why I said I don't want to come to a mathematical solution to that. Some countries take minimum, minimum 2 years. Some countries, 3 years, some countries, you have to have that blind faith. The tipping point...

I was coming to that. Is the TVS on the tipping point now for...

Every month, we are on a tipping point. I'm not saying it -- and we believe in...

I sensed it, I thought maybe you will also end or say.

No, no, no. I'm a firm believer even when Vahan came 5 years back, 3 years back, many people asked me, don't you think that you are making a wrong mistake of putting no pressure on your dealers, look at your competition, they give you a week stock, 10 week stock. Why you people are insisting only for a weeks' stock? To a large extent, they are right because my dealers are very, very smart, okay? Because they make extremity, they're booking some other business. But again, if I use my consumer mind, when I go to a restaurant, I want to speed those area. I want to speed -- if somebody tells me yesterday has got -- sorry, they will keep today's [indiscernible] it's not hot. [ Islamabad ] is not hot. [ Chattni ], I don't know what you have made, if that is my behavior. Ideally, I should be able to give 0-kilometer to every customer. In fact, I'm telling my teams out. They should be able to get into 2 days' time. Why they should keep some? Put in over a model. In the overall model, we have to make sure that no retails are lost. You come. It's not there. That's not correct. So you decide what is the color model combination and ultimate the dealer owner has to make -- this was the concept thinking when we said we are not going to do credit. When we give credit, you know what happen, our company undergoes a big challenge. If somebody wants -- if somebody puts the INR 2 crores, we could want and unwant it at the same target center because here the number is most important. For the warehouse guy, he's managing by number achievement. Then the dealer will call and say, oh, no, you sent me this and that. This will never move all that. But overall perspective, some dealers are also challenged. They don't keep the stock, okay? They want only -- not only selling because right now only they want -- they were only that's also there. But I always tell my team, I fight with you, you fight with me and argue on that. Negative into negative, I don't know, mathematics, it is positive. Business, it is not positive. Life outside is not positive. Negative into negative is big negative. Correct? The moment we came out of this credit, he was very happy.

And a lot of discipline.

It brought lots and lots of discipline, okay? Dealers have to plan. Dealers have to plan for the next 3 months retail. For example, I'm telling that, I'm not going to allow you to keep more than 30 days' stock. [indiscernible] is going to be you better put [indiscernible] what models do you want. And every week, you please interact with the people, okay? And the moment you cut down that, please look at the supply chain effect. The [ re-affect ], what I have seen is my tire 2 will have maximum stock. This is marked clearly. I'm a practitioner. And I never knew that Vahan is not going to come. Now Vahan has come now. All of you know really what is happening, correct? I don't think anybody is now looking at billing data, correct? Vahan share gains there or not. I love it. Ultimately, customer retail is the only thing which is important. It is not by how much you bill to that dealer. And that is not sustainable. So I'm very happy. Same principle we use in the international market also. So you say, this is my prognosis. This is the way I want to run the business in terms of customers. These are the current models I'm going to do. Fine. We will plan it real simple. Our role is to create what the Jupiter customer wants next, what the intel customer wants next, what Apache wants next. Okay? And what kind of new introductions like Ronin we can look at, what opportunities we can see from the market and patiently stay. Today [ Tusker ] is not there, okay? The most important thing we learned from [ Tusker ], you have fast [ moreso ] some better conditions. But you stay calm. You preserve your wicket, then you start hitting, right? This element of patience is something you have to culture, bring it to the minds of the people to stay calm. That's exactly what we have done in Indonesia. That's exactly what we are doing in EV. EV is a new technology completely. Company need to assume that, okay, things will change by 100% 2030. Is it good to really happen? I don't know.

Are you skeptical of that?

I'm not skeptical. I look at directions. I'm yet to see somebody putting a PowerPoint presentation, and this is my plan and I suppose the plan. That will be multiple success factors but if your trajectory is right, you are moving in the right direction. You reach that.

You made an interesting point that you always focused on what the Jupiter customer wants next, what an intel customer wants next. But eventually, everybody would -- actually your customers would want to operate to four-wheeler. That is a structural issue maybe that some people are now focused on maybe the 2-wheeler industry with a higher penetration now in the industry Moped. How do you think this whole dynamic plays out over the next 5 years?

Ten years back, I don't know when was Nano launched?

2003.

So much more. One of the biggest question was Nano customers are going to move from 2-wheelers. My prediction was Nano [ says that ] 2-wheeler will go out. Even now I'm telling you more cars we sell, we sell more to dealers. Every car family has got 1 or 2 wheelers. They use it differently. Scale with the customer. It's not a great theory I'm talking. When I -- at my level, I spent time with the days and nights of customers. I go there, I get a pre-appointment with them. From breakfast, I stay with them, what are things they look at, what are things they do. It is zero-pressure sales that I'm coming from a 2-wheeler company. I'm a Director and CEO, I know everything. And I give some young people also who just doesn't know about 2-wheeler, keep observing them. So they have breakfast and they use the card and somebody in their family uses the 2-wheelers, someone asks, why do you want a two-wheeler, why do you want a car, what purpose? And they very clearly articulate what is the purpose of a car, what is the purpose of a 2-wheeler. If there are 2-wheelers, they have a purpose. Because then we spend our own money we may not calculate the way you calculate Ratan investment, but we are very prudent that something has to be utilized fully. Certain purposes are use it, certain purposes are use certain modes. So the more cars India sells, 2-wheelers it is.

I have a few questions on EV. Now what EV game is based on the subsidy vertical if I'm right or wrong, maybe you can say. So if the subsidy goes down or maybe some change in the subsidies, this is EV is about, or maybe we'll have a cost curve, which EV will meet but the [indiscernible] this will go on his own.

My analogy, I can start with exports. What was the subsidy coming in exports? You mumbled the numbers?

[indiscernible]

How much is today?

Zero.

What has happened at the exports?

Resumed, [indiscernible]

Same analogy. One good thing all of us whether it is software industry, whether it is 2-wheeler industry, there is a learning curve. When we came up with our iQube, I think we started 7 years back iQube. I think it was costly or expensive, it was negative margin. But I can tell you today, it's a positive margin. There is a learning curve. The learning curve comes to optimum design. Initially, people don't look at optimum design. Company like ours, we look at customer-zero issue. So my engineer will say over durability, over reliability, over design. Honestly, you don't know. So you earn on. And if something on the customer side, we have a company. I was sharing him even if I make huge losses, I don't care about it. Customers should smile. If the customers smile is not there, there is no future for anybody. When customer smiles, even then you happen to look at next diversion, look at what all things I can optimize without compromising the customer requirements. Then you partner with some other technology partners and there are interviewing people globally. And then you work with your suppliers. They are also really intelligent. There are some suppliers that are outstanding. What will the -- and look at, okay, this can be optimized, this can be optimized, where it can be optimized, okay? Certain parameters can be optimized. That's a choice of subsystems can be optimized. That is Level 2. Then you get the cost of -- to one extent. But most importantly, you have to keep increasing your demand much, much higher. The demand is not growing, then anyone in a 2x2 or 3x3 people who look at high volume, then I will put all their furin technology, cost and supply chain, so the most and the most important thing is create your demand ahead of supplies or base in new technology or some existing technology. Keep it then there will be huge analogy saying that there's a lot combat and it is up on these subsystems. And if there are 6 months of paying beat, but use that as an investment for future. So I'm pretty confident that when we look at the version 4 of iQube, I think it is better, both from the point of view of the customer design. Okay? I can give you one analogy that is not in EV. This is real, you can check in our soul. We have Jupiter because all of you will be familiar with Jupiter. We went with a basic question, without competition. Then we said anyway, you have to give some delight for marriage season, for New Year season and then we said -- somebody said, why don't we do a limited addition. So we gave a limited first limited addition. That was where in the -- what Amitabh Bachan, you remember, first, [Foreign Language] then we found that the consumers love it. Actually, we estimated the drop, let me that we put in. During that season, everybody wanted only that, priced higher, featured higher, better profitability for the company, better margin for the dealer, but we said there won't be enough people but if you look at today, the learning gave us saying that consumers want premium and premium. Today, more than 50% of my Jupiter sales is coming from Cedex version, Grande version, Classic version which are priced much higher, valued much higher. And the moment you put the retail finance on that, people say that, yes, INR 100, INR 150 per month doesn't matter. I want to keep that. But people have to first come for Jupiter into the show or in your online. If they don't even consider that, there is no business case. Once they consider that then they say, oh, so many versions are there and so many features are there, oh, wonderful. But today, at aspirational level, including rural area, what I find is consumers want something very fantastic. My Moped customer first comes around [ Allahabad ] region. Of course, the buy is only motor. Okay. This is something fantastic. Just if you want to understand who will stand in the dealership and to closely look at it he will come, he will go first to RR, 3 rounds, 4 rounds, you go to Jupiter 125 go rounds and trader then you ask him, I was looking for my son and daughter. He doesn't want his son and daughter to buy. They span for 2 others in the peak -- this one and keep observing 1 or 2 people. We don't look at this guy that way.

But, I mean, just to get back, the industry in the last few years has seen a massive cost increase. On 2-wheeler is, of course, a substitute for public transportation in a way and so the category of customers that we are catering to is definitely impacted by the high cost of transition 6, whatever you call it, a year, whatever has happened, maybe 20%, 40% increase that has taken place, steel price hikes. So that has made some affordability challenges for your pyramid of consumers, right? Are those affordability challenges done? And I think in your conference call, you did mention that you're expecting some double-digit growth rates to come in, in terms of volume because the volume -- the number has now significantly come down from where it was in 2019.

I think your observations are very valid. But I'll first talk about that, and I'll get back to what is my prognosis about the industry. Why do I sell it? This is still repetition, all of you know that BS III to BS IV then GST. This one is 28% -- this is 18%. For a moped, 28%, you decide whether it is a right decision, okay. And then, insurance -- third-party insurance. Cars is 2 years, is 5 years. Then BS VI -- then all safety norms, including such a daylight, we have all headlights on. Nobody's questioning what it is required amount. If India has to get into the global market, it is required. What has happened is -- and on top of it, these [indiscernible] in the last 36 months, we have really done a hop, step and jump in terms of regulations, tightening the safety norms, tightening the insurance policies, which otherwise used to take 20 years. Good for the industry, very good for the industry, no issue. But on top of it, you had almost 20 months of lockdown or fear of lockdown, okay? But good news I don't have a purchase talk in any dealership is in the market. I don't have a radar stock in any of the dealerships. Any premium? No, no stock. All of you are rich, double rich, sorry to use that. [indiscernible] than pre-COVID levels. So who has got maximum hurt? The lower level -- people talk about Moped, I always ask them, Moped customer is poorer, minus 38% CAGR, I agree. Look at HF, look at Platina and CP100, minus 55%. So I'm better off because there is a relative kind of a position. Moped customers think something, he is able to get and buy.

There's a feeling that there is a structural decline in Moped. What you disagree?

I disagree. I go by the usage. You still have a million in the run. You see more people now smaller groups delivering at home. Who brings that? Delivery sells 1,000 mopeds can anyone of you believe [indiscernible] Technology that we are talking about customer usage. Tomorrow can be ethanol. It can be electric, it can be CNG. It can be any fuel. They are talking about usage. Tomorrow onwards, if all of us are going to say that I'm not going to have daal in the morning and vegetable or I'm not going to drink coffee in the morning then the customer usage is going to be different. I know paper -- I don't know how many people read newspaper now. But there are people who want to read, 8%, but there are people who have gone to digital. So I'm on the view that we have to track the customer usage, not the technology and total cost of ownership.

That is the point, we can replace cost of ownership.

100% fair but see EV or any technology will replace. We moved from two-stroke to four-stroke, four-stroke BS III, BS I, BS II to BS VI. Now electric start. I think technology requires the investments. See, what is the strength of TVS? We believe in design and development. All right.

No question.

If you believe in design and development and if you are going to have the patience and focus on the customer, I think things will work out.

Okay. One observation I had, I don't know how rudimentary it was that now with your electric vehicle, you give it to your dealer. He has no servicing income in that. So what is the incentive for him to sell where he will have onetime sale, no service income where he makes a lot of money on the -- or over a period of time on the service income? So there can be 2 outcomes in this. One that the [ olas ] of the world will have a difficult time because you can subsidize your dealer with 50% of your portfolio is at or service income and someone else doesn't have a service income so at least he has an incentive personnel and you will have a right to win or maybe there will be some zigzag in the market? So how should I read this electric story, at least from the dealer point of view?

See, dealer point of view, it will be -- see, there will be structural changes with respect to how the distribution is likely to happen.

In EV or totally?

In my opinion, totally because this pandemic has taught us quite a lot of new development from the new generation, okay? I've seen in my house, everything is on. My daughters want everything or resist their business partner, okay? Right now, I don't know. Reject also -- the speed at which they buy, the same speed they reject. Okay. Is that going to be the consumer behavior of India going forward? That is what we need to study. It's not the distribution channel we have to study. This is going to be the behavior of the consumer. Everything is going to be online. I think that we have to -- APM, for example, or online transactions. I think the role of each one of us, there is a word for the products -- after the product, how the consumer behaviors are going to change? Is it going to change across India? Is it going to change only in certain age groups or age profiles? Is it going to be different between men and women? Is it going to be completely different in a semi-urban and urban situation and the rural situation? This is something we are constantly, constantly looking at it. The simple thing I'll tell you, we put an iQube as a responsible father mother because most of you are -- will be having your children looking at the profile here. We put that you can also look at from at home. Youngsters said why? Why should people at home? No. We put geofencing. Why geofencing? We are also learning but some people, very good, we want geofencing. We want this tracking. We want safety and security. So now we are looking at an app where you can authorize father, some mother, you can authorize whether you need it or not. So this nuances and you asked about the spare parts income. Many, many kind of opportunities are there. You can give a way, for example, my existing customer, I can give features, OTA, I can give and I can charge software features. Many, many things...

That money goes to you, not to the...

No, no, no. See what happens in anything. [indiscernible] If you want a partner, okay? You can say, I take 100 and you take 0, it will not work. It can work, I think 100, even you take 1 or 98 and 2 with mutual understanding based on the resi model, what you bring it, what I bring it. Always [indiscernible] if it is going to be 100-0, it will not last for more than 1 day. I promise you, okay? But equally, the infrastructure is going to be different. When we started, we talked about certain [ Pasha, Fantasia, real face ] so many people. So I'm of the view, everybody will look at the TCO model. And everybody will look at subscription. Everybody will look at, okay, what is the regular income that's going to come. If I, for example, let's say, I'm going to deal with 200 EV customers. I'm a dealer. I'm an authorized service person. There has to be somebody service them. You cannot have 0 service in electric, anything mobile, it is not like a refrigerator or a straight jet home. There is a car, anything mobile, anything there is a mechanical device. You cannot have it a wheel and chassis and all this, okay, brake systems and things like that. That is bare and tire, some adjustments will be there, okay? They are definitely, they have to -- I call, somebody comes in. So there has to be some kind of a remuneration for the speciality and things like that. You can decide whether 10 people will be there, 15 people will be there, it will be on an AMC basis. Some method will be there.

So for the dealer which is your experience today also.

Tomorrow, for example, iQube Maxim is home charging today. Dealership knows the power supply challenges and [indiscernible] and all that. It requires somebody to go and interface with the customer. And if it's a big apartment and also association, you have to talk to them. So it's not as simple as we see.

Insurance also flowing into BEV?

I think everywhere these elements will work out appropriately. Please remember this principle of win win win -- customer.