U.S. Bancorp (USB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. I'm delighted to welcome our next panelists. So we have Chairman and CEO, Andy Cecere of USB; and John Stern, who's the CFO. Andy has been in the CEO position since, I think, 2017. And I think you've been at this conference every year since then. So great to have you back.

Obviously, a lot to talk about. Maybe we can just start off with your view of the state of the economy. Maybe you can talk a little bit about what you're seeing in terms of customer behavior, both from a spending, but also from a balance sheet perspective across consumers and corporates. And then just as an add-on to that, with the election a month behind us, has that had any bearing on how you're thinking about the economic trajectory heading into next year?

Great. Thank you, Richard. Good to be here. Thanks for having us, and welcome, everyone. Good morning. I would say that the economy is performing well. If I were going to use one word to describe it, it would be stability. So from the perspective of consumer spend, that is going as expected. November started a little slower, but I think it's principally because of the way the calendar fell. November, the holiday season and Cyber Monday picked up strong and then overall came in as expected. So the consumer continues to spend. At the same time, their credit continues to be solid. Delinquency levels are flattish and stable. So that word stable again. On the institutional side, I would say corporate and commercial companies are constructive in their dialogue and their discussion and positively inclined, but we're not seeing it come through in loan growth yet, and utilization remains relatively flat. So I think the tone is good, and that could portend well for next year, but relatively flat from a utilization standpoint. And then I think the -- when you talk about the political impacts, I think there's general positive tone on that as well. So there's hope that the regulation will ease a bit. I think that's good for the economy and growth as well as for banks overall. And I think you're seeing that reflected in the stock prices of banks. So stable and positively inclined is my summary.

Okay. And then, John, from a guidance perspective, can you just give us some high-level thoughts on the quarter? And maybe talk to if anything has changed since you last spoke on the guidance that you gave around revenues, expenses and credit.

Sure. Good morning, Richard. Good morning, everybody. There's no change to our guidance for the fourth quarter or for the full year. And so as we think about our net interest income, we expect relative stability going from the third to the fourth quarter. That was about $4.166 billion in the third quarter as a reminder. On the fees, we expect to continue on an adjusted basis, full year fees to be on the low end of that mid-single-digit range that we had talked about. And then on expenses, we continue to expect full year expenses to come in at $16.8 billion on an adjusted basis as well. A couple of things to just maybe keep in mind. We are seeing a little bit of softness in mortgage given activity there. Offsetting that, we have relative strength in our trust and investment management fees, given a lot of market activity as well as in our tax credit syndications, which is that revenue flows through the other revenue line item. And so we've talked about $125 million to $150 million range per quarter. We will be above that for the fourth quarter given that. And then just, finally, as a reminder, we have talked about impact of prepaid card. That will continue for us in the fourth quarter, and we would expect that to continue as well into the first quarter as well. But when you put it all together, there's just no change to our guidance for the full year or for the fourth quarter.

Okay. So Andy, you had your recent Investor Day, I think, just down the road in September. Can we just spend a few minutes just reminding us of the key messages from that day? And maybe you can talk a little bit about your strategic priorities heading into 2025. And look, have those changed in any way over the last 6 months?

Yes. So we did. We had it on September 12, first one in 5 years, Richard, and I think we had 3 key messages. The first one was we've invested a lot in the company and our digital capabilities in our products and services, our technology. And we are at the point on the investment curve where that's flattening out yet. And that's important for 2 reasons. One is that the expense is not going to go up, but probably, more importantly, we're starting to see the returns of those investments in both increased revenue opportunities as well as expense efficiencies from the technology and operational front. So that's number one. Number two is we talk a lot about our unique set of diverse businesses. We have a retail and a commercial bank, but we also have this big payments transactional services business. And our objective is to interconnect them to really benefit the customer. We know that when we have deeper relationships with the clients, we have better retention, better revenue opportunities, and it's better for the client because it helps them think about their whole relationship in a cohesive way to meet their financial objectives. So that concept of interconnectedness was number two. And the third thing is we laid out medium-term financial targets that we're very comfortable and confident we'll achieve, and they included 2 key components of industry-leading tangible return on common equity and positive operating leverage going forward and getting back to the 59 and 50s in the efficiency ratio. So those were the key messages focused on, again, the investment curve, interconnectedness and financial targets. And nothing has changed with regard to those objectives and targets and strategic priorities in the last couple of months.

Okay. And we'll get into I think a lot of those in a moment. But before that, I think you also said you don't expect to be a Category 2 bank until at least 2027.

Right.

If the loan growth environment does pick up meaningfully, would that expect change -- could that expectation change? And then would you consider limiting loan growth in any way to make sure that you don't cross into a Cat II bank before 2027?

Absolutely not. We are very comfortable with the fact that we are not going to get to Category 2 until 2027. So we have no constraints on growth. Just to put it in perspective, it's 4 trailing quarters of about $700 billion that puts you in that category. And we could grow loans 2x more than 2x GDP, multiples above what historic loan growth has been for the industry and still be -- we're still comfortable with both our ability to manage to 2027 and get there not until then as well as our capital levels and capital accretion. So we have no constraints. We're looking for growth and looking for opportunities.

Okay. And then on buybacks, John, I think you talked about a $5 billion program. Maybe you can help us think through the pace of buybacks and then maybe put it into the context of the uncertainty around what's going to happen around the finalization of the Basel III rules. So if those rules don't get finalized, does that have any bearing in terms of how you're thinking about the pace of buybacks or the capital levels for the firm?

Sure. So we take some of that, obviously, all those things like rules and whatnot into consideration. But for us, it's really about the glide path to where we are today from a capital perspective and getting to our objective between here and when we get to Category 2. So we think about our capital target, as we talked about at Investor Day, being approximately 10% on a Common Equity Tier 1 basis for -- on a Category 2, which as Andy just talked about, we wouldn't get that until 2027 or beyond based on where things go. Just as a reminder, we also generate 20 to 25 basis points of capital. So that, coupled with the timing that we just talked about, really gets us in a place where we're very comfortable with the balance of distribution as well as capital growth. In fact, we're very comfortable with that, and we started our share repurchases this quarter. We actually purchased $100 million of shares this quarter prior to the election. And we anticipate continuing with a modest pace, and the pace and level of that will change on a quarter-by-quarter basis. We'll evaluate that based on a number of different things, as you would expect, macroeconomic factors, the performance of the bank, the Basel III rules, as you just mentioned. So we feel very comfortable with the pace and the glide path that we have to get to our targets.

Okay. And then on capital deployment priorities, you've been clear that organic growth is the primary focus. So maybe you can remind us of where you see the best organic growth opportunities today and maybe just talk us through some early wins that you're seeing.

So a couple of things, Richard. Number one is going back to our messaging from Investor Day is we have this diverse set of businesses, unique core banking businesses, but payments and transaction services business. And our opportunity to link those together from the consumer standpoint and are smartly checking, linking card and deposit, rewards and interest rates to small business, linking treasury management together with payments activity, together with banking core activity to our payments business and embedding it into the business activities of our large corporates and certain verticals like health care. So that opportunity across all of the businesses to interconnect is significant. And again, we have this unique set of businesses that a lot of other banks don't have or enjoy. And it's -- our focus is to really execute against that interconnectedness across those businesses. Again, simply stated, traditional banking with payments and transaction services to really deepen those relationships across the company.

Okay. And then on M&A more broadly, maybe you can talk a little bit about some of the stumbling blocks to the resurgence of bank M&A for USB specifically, maybe talk about the industry as a whole. Maybe talk about whether or not that -- you think that could change as a result of the change in administration. And outside of, I guess, larger bank deals, are there nonbank acquisitions or bolt-on deals that you think could make sense for USB over the next few years?

Yes. So what we said on the earnings call and still stands is that traditional large bank M&A is just not a priority for us right now. There's still a lot of uncertainty. You have the regulatory uncertainty, the asset market uncertainty, the valuations, which are higher right now. And that, coupled with the fact that we have -- we believe, so much opportunity on the organic front, that's our focus. It's about that -- those areas of emphasis that I talked about. So that's where we're going to focus. That may change over the long term, and we'll be prepared if it does, but that just isn't our priority right now. In terms of bolt-ons, we would look at those. So we've done a number of those from everything from asset management on PFM, the Bento, TravelBank, really expanding our -- either our capabilities or our distribution models in terms of the products and services that we're selling. And then the other thing, of course, is our partnerships that we have with State Farm and Edward Jones.

Just as a quick follow-on. Would you expect there to be more consolidation in the banking industry outside of USB as a result of the administration change over the next few years?

I think over the long term, there is a potential for that. I don't think it's imminent. I think there's a lot of -- there's going to be some time before that occurs. That's my belief. I do think what is evident probably more than any time I've been in banking, the value of scale is significant in this environment. And we're fortunate to have the scale of a $660 billion asset organization. Spent $2.5 billion on tech and operational activities to enhance our capabilities every year. Scale is important to leverage technology, digital capabilities, marketing. And we have scale, and we particularly have scale in the businesses that we compete in. So -- but that scale component, I think, may drive consolidation over the long term.

Okay. So maybe we can talk a little bit about the balance sheet, both deposits and loans. We've had a few rate cuts since you last spoke. So maybe you can talk about what you've seen around those rate cuts in terms of deposit or customer behavior, how are -- how is pricing tracking relative to your expectations. And maybe you can also talk about migration from interest-bearing into noninterest-bearing and how that's tracking now that we're in a lower rate environment.

Sure. On the deposit side, maybe just starting with the macro, I think from an industry perspective, it's good to see stability in the deposit base, particularly with QT and other factors going about. Our deposit levels are very consistent with the industry data. It's very flat really from a deposit level standpoint. From a deposit pricing standpoint, we've invested a lot in our tools and capabilities over the last several years to give our bankers better tools and analytics to help appropriately price deposits. That, along with relationship-based pricing, is something we're very much focused on. And as such, that helps us with our beta performance as we kind of move through the cycle. So we talked about a cycle of where during our last earnings call that we have a 30% or so beta on that first cut. That was much faster, obviously, than the first hike through the previous cycle. And we anticipate that 30% to migrate north of 50% as we kind of go through the cutting cycle, and that is going as expected right now. So as we entered into the November cut and, obviously, the market is well anticipating a December cut, we would anticipate our beta to be around the 40% or so area for this particular quarter. And then we would continue to see that movement of going north of 50% as we continue down that path. The other thing I would just say, I think you mentioned noninterest-bearing accounts. And I would just say, that is very much as expected and stable as well. We've been -- our percentage was around 16% or so in the third quarter in terms of DDA relative to total deposits, and we would anticipate that to be relatively stable going forward.

Okay. And then on loan demand, been a weak year in terms of loan demand broadly this year. Do you think that could change heading into '25? Have you seen any change in pipeline for loan demand either after the rate cuts or after the election? And are you expecting much of a bifurcation between corporate and consumer loan growth trends as we head into next year?

Yes. On the loan growth side, we certainly are seeing a lot of chatter. We're seeing good activity in pipeline and things like that. It's very encouraging to see this kind of from a post-election standpoint. As from the uncertainty, I think we've just traded uncertainty in the election results, which obviously we now have to uncertainty of what is policy, taxes, tariffs, et cetera. And so I think those are some of the things that our clients are going through. But there certainly are -- there are things out there, momentum in terms of conversation and where things ought to go. Obviously, right now, we're seeing effectively the same thing that everyone in the industry is seeing from an HA data. It's very flat, as you mentioned, Richard. It's just -- it's been something that -- though that we anticipate and hope that there's growth down the road, but it's probably not something imminent. It just will take some time.

Okay. And then turning to NII, I know you're going to give a more complete update in January. But maybe you can touch on your thoughts around the type of environment and time frame it takes to get to a 3% net interest margin for the firm, which I think you talked about at the Investor Day as a potential normalized margin for the firm.

Yes. Sure. So I think, absolutely, we have all the ingredients to get to that level as we think about a lot of things going on in the marketplace. But the key ingredients for us is really going to be around deposit pricing. It's going to be around the shape of the yield curve, and it's going to be about us moving toward a higher returning loan categories and deemphasizing areas where there's not as much returns. The combination of all those things and the speed of that will help us get to that 3% or so or even higher net interest margin within that medium term that we talked about at Investor Day. And the faster the cuts come and the yield curve steepens, that's more beneficial to us, the greater the opportunity we have to normalize on deposit and funding costs. And we're going to continue to see benefits on the asset repricing side in our investment portfolio, our mortgages and things like that. That will continue to occur. And so those are the things that we're looking forward to, to kind of help us as we think about that projection of net interest margin going forward.

And as we think about your positioning from a rate standpoint heading into next year, should we still think of you as being largely neutral from a rate perspective? And maybe you can talk a little bit about sensitivity to a steeper curve, if that's what we end up seeing.

Yes. So right, I think that we continue to be neutral from an interest rate risk management standpoint. And so what that means is we are -- in our base case assumption, we have a cut here in December. We have effectively the same expectation that the market does in terms of cuts going into 2025 and then longer-term interest rates being at kind of around the ZIP code that we are at. And so obviously, that would have an upward sloping curve. What we're doing from an interest rate risk standpoint is being neutral to shocks relative to that outlook over the next year. That's what we mean by neutral, which we think is appropriate given the volatility and, in essence, the flatness of the curve that we have today. The other thing I would just say is it's something that we just always evaluate. It's -- if the environment shifts, then we may not be neutral. We may try to look to be asset sensitive or liability sensitive just depending on the factors that are presented to ourselves at that point in time.

Okay. So on fees, maybe we could talk a little bit about the growth outlook there. Capital markets is an area that is an important revenue driver for you going forward. How much of that is the environment versus investment in new products or deeper penetration with existing client bases? And has the opportunity set in capital markets changed significantly over the last few months post the election?

Yes. From a capital market standpoint, we feel very good about the investments that we've made over the long term for this business. It's -- you get a number of -- in terms of the investments we made in our technology, the platforms, our foreign exchange, as an example, we've continued to beef that up, the people, the processes around it. And so we've seen a lot of -- and expect a lot of growth out of our capital markets over the long period of time because we have a couple of things really going for us beyond the technology and the processes that I just talked about. It's really about our service model and how we go to market, how we can service clients really and use our scale, as Andy has talked about, using that scale and product capabilities to really service our clients really front to back through a whole segment of transactions that happen within the capital market space. That can range from fund services to corporate trust and administration and things of that variety. It happens in the capital market space with respect to things like derivatives and foreign exchange. It happens in the bond -- or the loan financing for the period of time and then as well as taking out those loans with the bond issuance and being a lead on that -- those sorts of transactions. These -- that's the sort of life cycle that we see in our capital market space, and we have the scale and capabilities to do all that. And the service that we have, which we think is unique relative to larger peers, that really has helped us grow, gain share and things of the like. And I think that's something that we're really very proud of and want to continue to move forward with.

Okay. So Andy, maybe we can talk a bit about the payment business, and maybe we can just start off with the recent announcement that you're splitting up the payment business under 2 separate leaders. Can you talk about what drove that decision, what you're looking to achieve from doing that? And then just as a follow-on, the new administration is very focused on improving government efficiency, potentially cutting government spending by up to $2 trillion. You have a very important sizable government relationship in your payment business. Could it be impacted if they do execute in terms of cutting government spending?

Right. I'll hit both of those points. Let me start with the business. The focus of splitting the business was really emphasis on prioritization and focus. That's what it was. It's a big business for us. Payments represents about 25% of our revenue pie. And what we did is we split the merchant and institutional side, which includes treasury management, corporate payments and merchant acquiring. And that's going to be led by Mark Runkel, who's going to report -- who is reporting to Gunjan. And that focus -- he's a veteran of the company, understands all aspects of the business, and I think that's an opportunity to focus on that and really create a continued glide path to growth. On the flip side, then we have the consumer and small business side, traditional card issuing. That includes our prepaid and card as well as our partnerships with Elan. And again, that focus is one on a little bit of a different area, but also an emphasis on focusing on the growth opportunities there. We're going to likely hire from the external group on that one from the external parties, and we're very encouraged by the level of talent that we have out there for that. So we'll be imminent on that. But it was really not a focus on changing the strategy. It is really a focus on emphasis, prioritization and opportunity and recognizing how big that is for us and how important it is. As it relates to the government efficiency, I actually think that's an opportunity. We do have a large relationship with a number of department and agencies of the U.S. government. To the extent that we can increase the efficiencies around payment flows and payments via electronic methods, I think that's actually an opportunity. So I think as those is a positive and something we can actually contribute to, their objective can help us as well.

That's interesting. Okay. So maybe we could talk a bit about expenses at the Investor Day. You talked about shifting the balance of investments from defensive to offensive. And I think you talked about 2/3 of investment spend now supporting growth initiatives. So maybe you can talk about some of the key areas of investment, how you expect those to evolve and perhaps talk about those investments in the context of achieving your medium-term efficiency targets.

Right. Our focus has been in the last 5 years on offensive categories of spend, principally around the payments, embedded payments, the opportunity to put them into the flows of what happens in the company, our digital capabilities, our industry-leading app, our abilities around some of the things that John talked about, about some of the other products and services that we have. So I'm really comfortable with the set of products and services that we have, and we're at a level of spend. We're not going to lessen the spend. Importantly, we're going to continue to invest in the company, but we're at a point now that it's flattening, and we're starting to see the returns of it, which will drive to the positive operating leverage that we talked about. We achieved 30 basis points in the third quarter. We articulated an expectation to be north of 100 basis points in the fourth quarter and expanding to meaningful levels into '25 and forward. So the level of investment spend, where we are in that investment curve and the opportunities that, that presents to us are important. We -- also as an expense base, we achieved our cost takeouts that we strove for with regard to Union Bank. Part of that, Richard, is our simple business model. We don't have multiple systems for lending and deposit taking. We have core systems. We, like many banks, are a product of many acquisitions over the years. One of the mantras we've always had is to consolidate and to go to the core system. So we don't have a lot of systems, which allowed us to get a lot of that savings together with the risk management framework we have. So that core system simplicity, the ability to leverage technology on a platform by adding products and services and scale without incremental cost is critically important and what will drive the positive operating leverage.

Okay. And then, John, maybe just as a follow-up on operating leverage. I know it's a key focus. I know it's something the market is also very focused on. Can you talk about how dependent that is on the revenue side of the equation? And now the Union Bank integration is complete, as you just talked about, where do you see the greatest opportunities for expense initiatives? And maybe in the answer, you can talk a little bit about AI and automation and how your thought process around that has evolved over the last 1 or 2 years?

Sure. So if we think about positive operating leverage, which we anticipate achieving meaningful operating leverage moving forward, it's obviously the 2 pieces, as you just mentioned. It's the revenue, which, of course, we have a good outlook in terms of the net interest income continuing to show growth over time and things like that given the reasons I just mentioned. The fee categories, we have a lot of drivers that we have there as well that should propel us to growth. And we talked about that, what our medium-term targets are for the growth there. And then expense becomes that lever that we can utilize. We have a lot of levers. And I think some of the benefits that we are seeing, just to kind of mend a couple of things that we just talked about here, Andy talked about getting the Union Bank savings, which I think we've done a fantastic job in getting that and overachieving on that side of things. But what that really did was provide us another platform to really think about the next level of expense managements that we have to do. It's really a second order or a derivative of all those different measures that we did back with the Union side. And what that means is looking at our operational capabilities, where does it make sense to centralize, where does it make sense to change process and what technology can we use going to kind of your AI and other things. We've been using a lot of technology to automate processes, and that has allowed us to gain scale particularly in our back office and operational areas, but also in areas like branch, where we've been able to automate a lot of processes in terms of our digital capabilities on the app and things of that, right? We just not needing as much staff in those particular areas, and redeploying that staff into areas where we have high growth that we've talked about on this meeting. So we have a lot of levers as it relates to the expense side of things on top of the things we've talked about in the past like third-party spend, being smarter about spend with respect to real estate as we make sure we have a workforce strategy that gets our staff in certain levels around the country. We're very much focused on all those things. And so I think the expenses are something that we will have great levers with as we think about that and achieving that positive operating leverage next year.

Okay. And I think linked to that, you've done a lot in terms of changing the branch distribution network. I think you've gone from 3,100 locations to 2,200 locations. And I think you've closed something like 60% of your in-store locations, something like that. So can you just talk broadly about the distribution strategy, talk about where you are in terms of rationalizing the network? And maybe talk a little bit about what you think could look like in 5 years' time from here.

Right. So we did reduce our branch footprint from that numbers that you talked about. A lot of that has to do with the digital investments that we've made. As you know, Richard, the branches evolve from a transaction location to a consultation location. A lot of the in-stores were transaction related. So to the extent we have great digital capabilities that allow for transactions to occur on your phone, we're able to optimize the network that we had in in-stores to lower the numbers. So that's number one. Number two is we do have a national franchise right now. We are densifying in those areas that we have high growth opportunities, modernizing the branch footprint, focusing on the sales and service -- sales and consultation component. And at the same time, we have these partnerships across the country, the 2 big ones with State Farm and Edward Jones, that offer us nearly 40,000 agents or advisers that are selling our products and services. And that, coupled with our digital capabilities on national deposits, we're very comfortable in that sort of footprint of branches together with the partnerships, together with the digital capabilities to allow us to continue to expand, take deposits and expand our consumer base.

So from here, how do you think the distribution focus...

I would say that we're sort of in a stable period right now. So we'll continue to optimize the footprint in the branch locations that we have. In the areas with high growth, we might have opportunities to add branches. We might continue to pare back branches in areas that we have opportunities to consolidate just given the location of 2 current branch offices. So I would say, generally speaking, on a go-forward basis, we'll be relatively stable.

Okay. So let's turn to credit. So are there any lending categories that you're either particular...

You want to talk about credit and the tree fell...

Yes, I wonder of that. But maybe we can talk about credit. Are there any lending categories that you're either particularly focused on or where you've tightened underwriting standards? And then maybe we can talk about risks that you're monitoring outside of credit. Is there -- what is top of mind today? And has that actually evolved over the last 12 months?

You start, John.

Sure. Yes. Really, the headline on credit is as expected, stable. These are words that we've been using for some time. We have not really changed our guidance that we provided in the past on -- as it relates to credit. There's really nothing that's on the radar that we see. Obviously, commercial real estate office is an area that we and the others start to continue to focus on. That will be -- there'll be lumpy losses along the way, but we're well reserved and appropriately reserved in that bucket as well as it's something that our teams heavily manage. I think in terms of tweaking or adjusting, that's just something that we always do. We are -- the portfolio teams are always looking at ways to make sure we're ahead of it, making -- it's part of our DNA in terms of being just active and proactive in terms of managing the portfolio from a credit standpoint. But the headline is really no change from our credit outlook going forward.

And stability is a good word. If you think about 3 big categories, C&I is stable, not seeing anything unusual from that perspective. CRE office is a focus for us, but I would say that is certainly manageable. It won't be an overnight thing. It will be lumpy, but it's manageable. And I would say it's getting modestly better from a tone perspective. And then on the consumer side, I mentioned delinquencies on the card side are stable just above pre-COVID levels, but certainly within expectations.

And then just as an add-on to this. Are there areas where you think the market is mispricing credit, where you feel that the pricing doesn't compensate for the risk where you're changing underwriting status as a result of that?

I would say not in our book. We are focused on appropriate returns, both from a loss standpoint and from a return standpoint. And I think as John says, we're always looking around the edges to make sure we're focused on the right things, but I wouldn't say anything major.

Okay. So maybe we can -- we've got a couple of minutes left. So maybe to close things out, when you talk to investors, what do you think is the most underappreciated element of the USB investment case? And what are the near-term catalysts that you're most excited about?

So historically, we've been known for having a good defense. So we have great risk management, great credit underwriting, great financial discipline, and that has served us well, particularly through cycles. And so that strength, which has been our traditional strength, is not diminishing and will continue to be an area of emphasis and focus. But I think the new areas where we're focused on is interconnectedness, this opportunity in the growth standpoint. So I think we have the right businesses, the right leadership, the right processes and the right set of businesses that are very unique that allow us to grow revenue faster. 40% of our revenue derives from fees. So we're not dependent just on the balance sheet, but some of these unique businesses. So that's the opportunity that I think is tremendous for us on a go-forward basis. And that, coupled with the efficiencies that we talked about, sort of widening the jaws, increased revenue level, moderating expense growth, I think, is an opportunity to drive positive operating leverage, meaningful high-teens ROTCE and efficiencies back to the 50s. Those things, I think, we're there. We're at a point now that we're at a structure and a process and a leadership that I think we can get there.

Okay. One final question for you. We've obviously seen significant outperformance in bank share prices over the last few months. When you look at it, do you think it's rational or irrational exuberance when you think about it forward?

So the last 3 or 4 years in banking have been an intense 3 or 4 years from a regulatory standpoint, coupled with the SVB impacts in First Republic and sort of everyone going on defense a little bit, the regulatory environment becoming very intense. I think the election results and the potential for more rational regulation and perhaps an easing from not just from a banking standpoint but from an economic standpoint, and banks are a reflection of the economy. I think that's the positive. And I think most of the things that are being contemplated, tax policy, regulatory policy, are generally positively impact to the banking system because they're positively impact to the economy. So I wouldn't say it's irrational because we're coming from an area that was very intense. And so I -- there's still a lot of questions, immigration, tariffs and so forth. But I would say, generally speaking, the tone is positive. And I think that what you're seeing reflected in the stock prices.

Okay. Great. On that note, thank you very much for joining us. Look forward to seeing you next year.

Thank you.

Thank you.