UBM Development AG (UBS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

November 26, 2020

Vienna Stock Exchange AT Real Estate Real Estate Management and Development earnings 64 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Thomas Winkler

executive
#1

Thank you, Haley, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for your interest in UBM and the results of the first 9 months. Q3 has again been a quarter which came in above expectations. Remember, we were guiding you to expect a flat third quarter, and we generated an additional EUR 7 million EBT in the last 3 months. Before Patric is presenting the numbers, let me give you an overview where we stand with UBM in the context of the second lockdown. If you go to Slide #3. The transformation of UBM is in full swing. While we are back at EUR 2.2 billion regarding the pipeline, this pipeline now consists of 50% residential and 30% office. Only 15%, 1-5 percent, are made up by hotel still. We are witnessing a residential boom and provide you with evidence that there is a strong demand for new type offices. We also believe that real asset inflation is going to continue. Our strategy changed to sustainability, technological and emotional intelligence, is additionally supported by this megatrend also governing the fund management industry. I have already mentioned a better-than-anticipated operational results, and we are going to share our outlook for the full year, next year and 2022, of course, based on various assumptions. Let me, however, start with a recap of this year to put it all into context. Slide #4. We started the year 2020 in the old world, a sellers market for real estate developers and a share price of around EUR 50 with an upside trend. And then came corona, the black swan, the first lockdown. We have decided that COVID came to stay and reacted fast and decisive. We stopped all hotel projects, which were not under construction already. We were shrinking the pipeline to EUR 1.25 billion and took write-downs on our hotel operations. The to-be expected reaction of the share price was that it more than halved to EUR 23.60. Since the beginning of summer, we have worked on a new setup, green, smart, and more. Hindsight proves we were right. Amidst a second lockdown, which is not going to be the last one, we have changed almost all hotel projects into other asset classes and reestablished a EUR 2.2 billion heavy pipeline. To the extent the market is looking at small caps at all, the market has been giving us little credit so far, reflected in the share price, which is telling us that an almost 50% discount to book value is equally justified as no credit, no credit to the EBT potential of the pipeline, which could be anything between EUR 200 million and EUR 300 million based on a 10% to 15% developer margin. Fair enough, that's the capital market, seeing is believing. Where do we stand? Please follow me to Chart #5. Here are the facts. EUR 1.1 billion of our project pipeline is in residential. Remember, the most favored asset class by real estate investors at the moment. More than EUR 600 million worth of new type office projects need some more explanation and, admittedly, some conviction. 80% of our projects are in Germany and Austria, the 2 countries where the majority of economists expect the fastest recovery and the strongest macroeconomic reserves. And our largest project in Germany is only partially included as we present you with a 4-year rolling pipeline only. This is the Baubergerstrasse project, of course. Looking at Chart 6, you can see where the optimism for resi is coming from. The last 10 years of real estate inflation pointed a way into the future. Looking at the 3 markets in which we developed more than 3,000 apartments going forward, you can see real estate inflation has been 4x, 4x higher than consumer price inflation. And we even believe that this picture might accelerate as people start losing trust in money. Actually, it's something that the ECB yesterday said is also on their mind. With 1,000 apartments sold in 10 months, we have never sold more in such a short period of time. Interestingly enough, the vast majority has been sold to institutional investors, particularly the market leader, Vonovia. If anything, we see a sales price upside from the experience that we make with individual sales activities. So what about office? Please turn to Chart #7. We see an entirely new market situation with entirely new demand drivers. Demand driver number one is a significantly shrinking appetite for risk on the buyer side. This results in institutional demand focusing on A locations, top credit tenants and developers with a strong balance sheet. The perfect match of these requirements is our F.A.Z. Tower, the Tower for Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. This is why we were able to sell it a few days ago to HanseMerkur Insurance Group. The purchase price of EUR 196 million represents a multiple of more than 30x annual rent, a price at which we have never sold an office building in Germany in the past. However, I must admit, it's been a while that we have sold an office building in Germany. Demand driver number two is our conviction that you can only bring your employees back to office if you're credibly telling them that their office is going to feel as good and as safe as working from home. This means the office is meeting the demand of a post-corona world, which will be governed by the fear of future pandemics or further outbreaks. It can only be achieved by an office which is a lot smarter. This means a lot more of sensors, a much stronger IP backbone and a very different look and feel or emotion intelligence, if you want. It is unthinkable, absolutely unthinkable that you will achieve this by asking your employees to come back to exactly the same office, which they left before COVID. This is why we believe the new world is a nightmare for traditional-type officeholders but heaven for new type office developers. Demand driver number three is riding the megatrend sustainability by developing truly green buildings with alternative building materials and ventilation systems, as an example. As a welcome side effect, we are going to bring down operating costs of such buildings significantly. Does it sound to visionary for you? Let's turn to Chart 8. Within 6 months, we have not only changed a 350 rooms hotel to an office building, we have changed the building right next to F.A.Z. Tower to Frankfurt's first hybrid timber construction office of size, with 17,500 square meters of gross floor area above ground. Don't get me wrong, we are not there yet. However, Frankfurt city authorities, all involved parties on our side and, last but definitely not least, potential investors have shown very strong interest to make it happen. We have tendered the timber construction. And not only have there been more than a handful of suppliers, but we are pretty confident that at the end of the day, this timber hybrid structure comes at comparable cost to conventional construction. That's an important one. And as I say, we base it on the current status of the tender. Finally, let me answer the question, what is this green, smart and more all about. Please turn to Chart 9. First of all, it gives us at UBM a clear new direction as a group. No doubt, sustainability, intelligence in building and a much higher expectation for aesthetics has been in the air for a while. It has been there before corona. But it was more of a side aspect or a byproduct. Now we have put it to the center of what we do in the future. Besides, it is something we find our employees easily embark on. 1/3, 1/3 of our workforce is actively engaged in one of our 7 virtual workshops to define what subjects are going to be put in the focus of our activities, like timber construction under the headline design and construction. Situation for all developers is a bit comparable to entering a gourmet restaurant. All starters sound interesting to the extent you know what is behind some of the very exotic names. But you can not choose 5 starters and 6 main courses and 5 desserts without overeating. You have to choose and compose the perfect menu. This is on which we are working right now. We are going to select a couple of signature dishes and are curious with what ideas our own people come up. We do this for commercial reasons, by the way. With the European Union's Green Deal and the Taxonomy guidelines, the fund management industry is going to go through a rapid change from Q2 of next year onwards. We are producing an independent GRI report for 2020 and strive to provide a consistent ESG documentation, which is ticking the boxes of our investors. Before going into 2021, I would now like to hand over to Patric for the financials. Patric?

Patric Thate

executive
#2

Thank you, Thomas, and good morning, everybody, also from my side from the home office. And as Tommy -- as Thomas already mentioned in his introduction, from a financial point of view, we look back at very good 9 months in 2020. And this holds true in all financial dimensions: our profitability, our balance sheet and our cash position. But let me explain one by one. Please turn to Slide #10 for our earnings development in the first 3 quarters. Despite the challenges we all face in our markets and working environment, we have reported a positive result in every quarter in 2020, although we had to compensate for a material negative corona earnings effect, be it our hotel operational business or negative effects from FX fluctuations. In the first 9 months of 2020, pretax profit rose to EUR 51 million, which corresponds to an increase of 10.4% year-on-year. Also, in terms of net profit, we delivered a strong result of more than EUR 33 million. Composition of the result was very different, with more income coming from fully consolidated entities in Germany, and therefore, we had a much higher tax rate in the first 9 months 2020 in comparison to last year. The strong result is coming from our core business, real estate development, which is up and running. The construction sites of our forward-sold projects were making progress and residential sales are doing well, which led to corresponding PoC contributions. The biggest PoC contribution in the reporting period came from our QBC 1&2 office project, which will be completed by the end of this year. The QBC 1&2 is the last part of our major urban development project next to Vienna's main railway station, with an overall sales volume of more than EUR 450 million. Besides that, we were successful in the residential asset class, as Thomas already mentioned. The result includes material negative effects from the current corona crisis. We have been able to absorb some of the negative effects because we took fast and decisive actions. Negative corona effects include the hotel operations' write-downs and also FX effects. Already in Q2, the value of the hotel operating company was written down to 0. This included the book value, shareholder loans and accumulated operational losses. Overall, the effect from the hotel business amounted to minus EUR 15 million. Of course, this figure needs to be reevaluated by the end of the year when we are more clever on the impact of the second wave of the lockdowns. In addition, the earnings include negative effects from FX valuations of EUR 22 million. We had negative currency effects mainly from the Polish zloty. They are reflected in our P&L in the other operating expenses as well as in the at-equity result. All in all, we are pleased with the earnings development in 2020 so far, which is stronger than we had expected right after the corona outbreak. But we are also aware of the fact that the second corona wave has reached Europe at full speed and a challenging Q4 lies in front of us. Please turn now to Slide #11. The balance sheet has so far proven its resilience. Our cleanup work of the last years paid off. Equity increased by EUR 135 million since 2016. This EUR 476 million, we had the highest equity ever at this time of the year. With a balance sheet total of EUR 1.4 billion, this translates into a strong equity ratio of 34.3%. Due to further investments in the course of the next year, the ratio should -- could come down a bit, but we are strongly committed to our target range of 30% to 35%. Net debt was reduced by EUR 180 million in only 4 years. Net debt increased a bit since end of the year and now stands at around EUR 500 million. But if you put it in relation to our balance sheet total, our LTV is still quite favorable for a developer. It amounts to 37% by the end of September and gives us enough room to maneuver when investment opportunities arise. But we have not only prepared ourselves for upcoming project opportunities with a solid balance sheet, we also have built up a reasonable cash cushion. Please follow me to the next chart, Chart #12. On this chart, you can see that we have even more cash at our disposal than before the corona crisis. Let me remind you of our Q1 presentation in May when the effect of the crisis were not yet clear. We prepared ourselves for a hibernation scenario with the real estate transaction market at standstill for up to or even more than 1 year. On top of that, we assumed that the debt market remains closed, not only for bonds but also for project financings. We were hoping that this would turn out to be too pessimistic, but we were preparing for the worst. Now 6 months down the road, our process scenario looks brighter, and we worked hard over the summer to be able to release cash to a certain extent, and therefore, to have more financial headroom when it comes to acquisitions. What does this mean? Sales markets are open. After a short lockdown of the real estate market, also when it comes to residential or office, we were upon the first to be able to sell again on a pre-corona price level or even better. Project financing is possible when quality parameters are met and for high credit worthiness candidates. It is possible to finance projects, again, but banks are much more risk averse than pre-corona. This is true for the project risks stand-alone, but also for the risks, financial fitness of the parental company. Group refinancing, the bond and Schuldschein market were closed and are only opening very slowly. Despite our flat repayment profile, we have started over the summer to evaluate our options when it comes to early refinancing exchange offers. The market is still not where it used to be. But we are confident to successfully tap the market with EUR 50 million to EUR 70 million ticket until the end of the year. So not only cash as an absolute number has changed over the last quarters, but also the risk cushion we need to sustain. Also, in this difficult market environment, we succeed in optimizing our financial structure. We are definitely ready and able to take advantage of opportunities whenever they arise. Now back to Thomas for the outlook.

Thomas Winkler

executive
#3

Thank you, Patric. A great set of numbers. This brings us to the last slide of the presentation, the outlook. It is fair to say that 2020 is going to come in stronger than anybody was anticipating at the end of March, including ourselves. It is going to bring very solid results, less top line and more profits. Needless to say that 2020 is, however, going to come in significantly below record 2019. 2021 is going to see a corona "dent" and a corona delay. The extent is still open in the light of the ongoing uncertainties and nobody is able to say how long this lockdown is going to last or if we are seeing further lockdowns before a vaccine is approved and successfully rolled out so that it makes a difference. It cannot come as a surprise after no project acquisitions in 2020, that in the likely absence of forward transactions in 2021, we still have to rely on percentage of completion contributions to a major extent. The mentioned uncertainties help, however, for 2022, as they increase the likelihood of projects, particularly of nonlisted developers facing increasing difficulties. With extension of bank financings, lack of trading opportunities, combined with lack of capacity to execute construction and mezzanine investors who see the opportunity to turn the money quickly in other projects or other areas of business, we will see opportunities, promised. All of this put together leaves UBM in an increasingly privileged position. We meet the requirements of the banks, investors and tenants. In other words, the likelihood of market opportunities bringing us back to pre-corona earnings levels increases exponentially with the duration of the lockdown, as sad as it sounds. Let me now open the line for your questions, and thank you for your attention.

Operator

operator
#4

[Operator Instructions] And the first question is from the line of Julius Stinauer of Hauck & Aufhäuser.

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#5

I have a couple of questions, actually. Let me start one by one. I think that's the easiest way. So first, what do you think is the effect of the current lockdowns on your business? Can you already outline the impact from it on Q4? And also given the fact that we are quite -- have moved into Q4 already. And do you expect more hotel write-downs in the last quarter?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#6

Look, the lockdown started after 30th of September. Let's not forget it. It already feels like a lot longer. Most of our hotels are again in hibernation mode. This is true for the German hotels, for most hotels in Poland, but not for all yet. And it is unclear what the subsidies that we are receiving for them are going to be. As you know, there is an ongoing discussion. You can only apply for November since yesterday, I think, or the day before yesterday. So it's a bit difficult to arrive at precise numbers. The key, however, is what are the negotiations, the discussions that are ongoing with our owners going to bring. Because that's the question where we are at the moment completely at the loose end. They have kind of gestundet. They have waived our payment obligation, so we don't have to pay the monthly rents. But it doesn't mean that we don't have to pay them in the future. And it's easy to figure out. We now have 9 months this year, okay, where we had very little business that we could do. Our average occupancy rate, of course, excluding December, but extrapolated December is going to be just above 23%. And then the big question is, what does this mean going forward? And to what extent can we recover the remaining losses as described going forward? If we were able to give a better assessment, of course, it would have been included in the 9-month figures.

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#7

Okay. So that -- so you -- but the subsidies for the closed hotels in Germany, I think they will be paid as far as I know, and probably there will also be subsidies for December. So this should put -- like, get some pressure off -- probably off the operators, I assume, but you don't really know the full effect yet, I guess.

Thomas Winkler

executive
#8

Exactly. And it's a number which will not suffice to pay the rental obligations that we have incurred.

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#9

And then on the -- another question, actually on the pipeline, your development pipeline. You said that it grew to EUR 2.2 billion. Are there any new projects? Or are there only reactivated projects for the time being? And how do you see acquisition opportunities in the markets developing? So is there anything new coming to the markets? You're saying -- you already said in the last call, you expect that it's coming to the market, but can you actually already see new offers in the market?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#10

It's all reactivated projects. We had -- we didn't do any project acquisitions in 2020, and we didn't do them on purpose. In the first 6 to 8 months, we didn't do them for cautionary reasons. And ever since, it is a little bit like the situation in which soldiers are that are defending the people in the Wild West from the Indians. We are sitting in our round and waiting for the Indians to come. And the big question is when do you start to shoot? If you shoot too early, you will miss a lot. If you shoot too late, they will break through your lines. And that is pretty much the situation as we have it right now. They are our first projects or real estate coming to the market, okay? You hear about the most prominent hotel bankruptcies but -- and potential conversions into other usages, asset classes. But all we see at the moment is all you saw before the tsunami. It's not the tsunami yet. So the question really is what is the best timing and when -- have you kind of kept your powder dry for too long and when is it too early to shoot?

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#11

But you still expect that to happen in '21 and maybe in the half -- first half year or rather to the second half or...

Thomas Winkler

executive
#12

Julius, your common sense, what does your common sense tell you? I mean you have friends that are working in less privileged areas than you do. I see people getting now really depressed, okay? I see friends who have never worried about the future since I know them, and I've known them for 30 years. All of this, okay, is not going to be resolved overnight. And the longer you wait, the longer it lasts, and that's the point that I wanted to make at the end of my presentation, the more likely it is, okay, that it makes sense. And if it's only for risk-sharing reasons, to share upside of projects by securing the full financing of these projects, that in many cases, not if they are under construction, but before this point have been delayed significantly. I mean we are talking 9 months minimum. So it is going to come. And as I said, nobody knows. You only know it then in hindsight if you waited too long to shoot or if you shot too early. I'm afraid I can't give you a better answer on this one.

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#13

Okay. Understood. Two more rather probably shorter questions. So you sold the F.A.Z. Tower? And what do you think is the impact on the EBT in 2020 already? Do you expect a significant uplift in the fourth quarter, given that disposal compared to the third quarter, for example?

Patric Thate

executive
#14

Yes. That is a question I would take. Yes, of course. So selling the F.A.Z. Tower is giving us some tailwind when it comes to our PoC in the fourth quarter. What I would see from today's point of view is roughly that we are talking about EUR 7 million to maybe EUR 8 million. This is coming from the fact that we are facing here at equity and that we get the numbers only in after we have already taxed them. And in Germany, the tax rate is quite high. I made that point also in my presentation when it came to why is the EUR 51 million only translating into EUR 33 million net income. And when you have a net equity, you see that already far, far above the tax line. So that is the reason. The answer is yes, some tailwind from this one, but let's see what headwind we are getting from the quarter from the corona effect.

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#15

Okay. So you say EUR 7 million to EUR 8 million EBT, was it, right?

Patric Thate

executive
#16

Yes.

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#17

Okay. And my final question is really, are there any potential upside trigger for '21? Because you said like in '21, it will be rather maybe a flat year compared to 2020 or no, nothing really exciting. So do you expect -- or are there any potential upside triggers for next year that could probably turn this '21 into a better year maybe?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#18

Well, we have a couple of projects where we have to make the tough choice, are we selling them, okay, or are we executing them? Of course, if you execute them, the absolute contribution -- earnings contribution might be higher, but it comes in later. Or do we actually sell them with the additional value that we have created for them, which could be right to a building permit. And that is what we are currently contemplating to make the year 2021 a dent, okay, a delay. But it's too early to really report about it.

Julius Stinauer

analyst
#19

Okay. So I understand you have some options possibly, but you're still thinking about it. That's...

Thomas Winkler

executive
#20

Yes. And options always depend on -- we are not alone, we need to find somebody who's prepared then to come up with the price that we are expecting.

Operator

operator
#21

The next question is from Simon Stippig of Warburg Research.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#22

Can you hear me?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#23

Loud and clear.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#24

Perfect. So my first question, I would also ask them one by one, is regarding the timber tower in Frankfurt. And I would ask if you could please give a little bit more of an insight into the construction time and also the cost per square meter and maybe the CO2 advantages versus conventional construction.

Thomas Winkler

executive
#25

Yes. We don't have a building permit. And before you have a building permit, it's almost impossible to give you then a completion date. All I can say is that the Frankfurt authorities are very, very comforting because they also want to have timber construction office in Frankfurt. So that's encouraging. We don't give cost per square meter prices, but we gave you a hint in our presentation that we believe based on the current tender that we have been running and more than expected participants, i.e., more than 5, more a number of 10, that we get very competitive prices. And at the end of the day, it could be that we come out with a price that is comparable to conventional construction. And last but not least, it is very attractive for investors based on early-stage discussions that we had with them to invest in green because as from 1st of April, okay, they will have to prove that a certain percentage of their investment is in green investment. And so they are all keen to look at this investment opportunity even if it's somewhat smaller than the F.A.Z. Tower.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#26

Okay. Great. And just in total volume, what do you expect in rough, either construction costs or selling price?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#27

Well, the sales price should be close to a 3-digit million price.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#28

Okay. Great. And then second question would be in regard to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung Tower sale in Frankfurt. First of all, congratulations. And my question would be your forward sale contract to HanseMerkur, what exact performance metrics on rental level and vacancy are included there, if any?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#29

Well, thank you for the congratulations. Obviously, the tower is rented out for 15 years to F.A.Z. So it's 100% occupancy rate. No performance level on this one. And we have to hand it over by end of Q3 2022 with the standard quality parameters that we have, okay?

Simon Stippig

analyst
#30

Okay. Great. So there's -- I mean, logically, there should be no issue in actually finishing the tower and also providing it in the standard quality parameters to HanseMerkur at that time.

Thomas Winkler

executive
#31

Looking at the last 147 years, no.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#32

Okay. Great. That's a good -- very comforting answer. And then maybe 1 or 2 questions to Mr. Patric. So in regard to the balance sheet, we saw the financial liabilities increase to around EUR 0.25 billion from EUR 200 million in Q2 '20. Could you just explain that a little bit what that was and for -- maybe even for what project, that would be great.

Patric Thate

executive
#33

Yes, of course. So one project, which kicked into this one -- or let me say, what we did at the beginning of the year and also with a short break after the corona crisis had made it able to again finance projects. So we had this in Baubergerstrasse. That is one of the big projects here which started. We have acquired that last year, first of all, with equity. And when we started it, we financed it and then we got a good part of the equity back because that was -- that is a standing and refurbishment of the standing. So you have a big block you paid at front, and you got some of that back, so you have a jump in the credit. Then there were the hotels in Poland with Mlynska and Mogilska. They were presold before the crisis, but they had to be financed in the crisis, which worked out. And a smaller part of the, what you call, jump is also coming that for the one or the other project, an unencumbered one we started to have a financing on them. So these are the major items. But most of the so-called jump or increase is just coming from projects which are started to go into the construction phase and being tapped from the bank financing loan.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#34

Okay. Great. And then one question maybe to the cash flow statement. Also, there was an increase in the investments in PP&E. And to -- maybe that will also be great just if you could give me a little bit of more detail to where the capital was allocated to? Is it again in Baubergerstrasse or is it...

Patric Thate

executive
#35

No. That is not in Baubergerstrasse. That is more -- most of it, I think you referred to the roughly EUR 20 million, going into this number. This is predominantly coming from Kneuterdijk. That's a project in Netherlands, a hotel we have already started before the corona crisis and which we built until the end, of course. And then there is a smaller part going to the Polish projects because they needed a bit more equity. We have financed them meanwhile. But nevertheless, you need -- we needed to bring up the equity at the start, and that's basically it. So the biggest part of that is coming from Kneuterdijk.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#36

Okay. Great. And one last one to -- in regard to your standing assets. The Poleczki in Poland, that just sort of decreased a little bit in value, not by much, but still 3%, a bit more than 3%. Could you explain that from last -- I think it was from Q2 onwards.

Patric Thate

executive
#37

Yes. That is the currency fluctuation. We have not revalued it. Because your question is probably hinting into this direction, have we revalued anything there? No, the answer is no.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#38

Okay. Great. And maybe just one last one. Roughly of your EUR 2.2 billion, roughly, how much of that is already forward sold in your volume?

Patric Thate

executive
#39

Thomas, question for you or should I...

Thomas Winkler

executive
#40

Yes. No, no, no. I was working it out. It's a bit unprepared for me because we have a 4-year pipeline. And obviously, the forward sales are more for '21 and '22. I'd say it's 1/3.

Simon Stippig

analyst
#41

Okay. Great. Perfect.

Operator

operator
#42

The next question is from Stefan Scharff of SRC Research.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#43

Stefan here from SRC from Frankfurt. I have a couple of questions, but I will also do it step by step. So the first question is about your net debt. It's a little bit up, about EUR 20 million, in the third quarter. What's your expectation here for the final quarter? And what could be a fair assumption for next year for the development of your net debt? I remember the bond issue was 1 year ago in 4Q 2019. Timing was perfect. And the coupon was also low. So perhaps you can say a little bit more here.

Patric Thate

executive
#44

Yes, of course. So net debt development until the end of the year. And not easy to be tackled question, if I'm honest. It depends a little bit on the fact, are we able to have closing before year end or aren't we able to have a closing, which is for sure is that we have some cash outs, also cash outs, which are going against the net debt. That is because our construction sites are just running full speed, and they will also run in the fourth quarter full speed hopefully because that is bringing us, on the other hand, the PoC revenues. In terms of income, we might receive something from the signature of the F.A.Z. That can be a source of it, and we might have a handover until the year-end or 2 smaller ones. So if I put that all into the equation, probably the net debt is not looking much different to the current level for the year-end. In terms of the financing, thanks a lot, yes, we were really glad with the timing last year. It seems -- if you look at from today's point of view, I hope, and that was where I'm hinting at, that we can tap the market nevertheless, now in the fourth quarter before year-end. It will be not the same size, and it will be a little bit different also in terms of interest rates. But there is coming cash also from this perspective that won't help us in terms of net debt, of course, because this is a neutral transaction. And for next year's -- next year, that is really a bit up in the air. That depends on many parameters. One is when are the opportunities arising Thomas is talking about. And I personally wouldn't be too unhappy if the net debt for a short period of time is increasing because that would mean that we are able to spend our money reasonable on the one or the other bigger projects. But to have a real good stance on where the net debt is next years, I have, I think, 10 scenarios in my head where it could go and it could go up and it even could go down if we are unlucky because if it would go down, it would mean we can't spend all money.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#45

Okay. Okay. I see. You talked a little bit in your quarterly report about a corona dip coming to your bottom line next year. So I don't know, QBC will be completed soon. And I would say perhaps it's about more or less just a rough assumption, EUR 10 million lower than this year, your bottom line. Might this be a fair assumption from my side?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#46

Well, let me jump in here because I know what you're -- where you're pointing to. It really depends now how corona is developing. It's not in our hand because we have a scenario in our mind where we have several lockdowns that go until May. Do I have any evidence for it? Well, look at n-tv this morning. I mean I couldn't make head or tails. Is the lockdown in Germany now going to last until 20th of December? Is it going to last until beginning of January? And there is one thing for sure. The moment the numbers are going to go up, and that's completely irrespective of any vaccine coming to the market or not, okay? Because it won't make a difference at the beginning. It has an impact. As I said, it helps us with getting our arms around new projects. And this is why you see for a change, the CFO being relaxed about net debt going up. We have the LTV 50% kind of limit that we have set ourselves, but we have quite some leeway for this. And from that point of view, a lot can happen. We just felt it would be unfair not -- to hide behind corona and say it's not going to have any impact because there's one thing for sure. With no forward transactions, okay, we won't have PoC contributions in 2021. And coming back to Julius' question, we are now looking at trading opportunities, if you want. I mean, it's more than trading, that could compensate to a certain extent. But that's, of course, betting on buyers paying a full price to the one or other project that we have.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#47

Okay. I see, I see. So -- and you told us that the third quarter, Thomas, is much better in terms of pretax, EUR 7 million plus. And you more or less expected a flattish 0 third quarter. Can you give us a little bit more color about the EUR 7 millions, how they are split up? How do they split up?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#48

I could do it if Patric doesn't.

Patric Thate

executive
#49

I was not fast enough to unmute the...

Thomas Winkler

executive
#50

Okay.

Patric Thate

executive
#51

I'm sorry. So it's coming predominantly from the PoC we have received in that quarter. So the overall quarter was, to a good extent, I say just in records, but just coming from the PoC part. And that will also carry us a bit through, especially when we get a little bit more tailwind now from the F.A.Z. On the other hand, what we are seeing is that the QBC, we have another quarter probably for this one in the fourth quarter, which is also a PoC effect. But next year, this will running out for sure, probably even at the end of this year. And the F.A.Z. will jump into this one. So we have a solid basis coming from PoC. But the extras, they need to come from something different. Thomas was talking a bit about that, depending on our projects and the stage when we are going to sell them and if we sell them, if we find the right buyer for these ones. So that is basically the view to next year.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#52

Okay. Okay. I see. One question about the F.A.Z. sale, which you reported on Monday. Congrats for that good deal. One question. If we look at the fourth quarter, the effect from this deal might be or could be, in my point of view, about EUR 4 million or EUR 5 million coming to your P&L. Is this a fair assumption? And how much may we expect here for the next year?

Patric Thate

executive
#53

Stefan, I had that already, I think, in one of the other questions very quickly and briefly talked about it. We are now getting from the signature a good jump in the PoC. That is more EUR 7 million to EUR 8 million, I would assume, coming from that angle. Also depending on the construction work in the fourth quarter. But like always, in PoC, you get that as -- when you -- when it kicks in, you get -- the first step is the biggest one in brackets because you get part of the land you have included into the equation you get as a PoC part of gain for that. So EUR 7 million to EUR 8 million more. Next year, the question is how the construction is running, but we will get solid PoC results from the F.A.Z. Tower next year as well.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#54

Okay. I see. I see. Could be the double perhaps between EUR 10 million and EUR 15 million, but I don't want to force you to any answer. So...

Patric Thate

executive
#55

Yes. You should -- as I said, it depends a little bit on the construction work, and I think we are with this one. But that is a solid base where we look at when it comes to PoC next year.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#56

Okay. And you have the 8 floors building next to it, the timber offices. Can you say a little bit more here? What you expect for the building permission? And also, how is the interest from tenants and also the interest from institutional investors to invest in the timber offices next to the F.A.Z. Tower.

Thomas Winkler

executive
#57

Yes. Well, we've concluded a contract for the ground floor, which is the toughest, okay? It will be lebensmitteleinzelhandel. I don't want to say more there because they're dismissing for this. After we made now a lot of noise only starting on Monday, okay, I understand that there is quite some interest, particularly from companies that had bigger office space and now are looking for the right office space that goes well with their company orientation, i.e., we have seen interest from potential tenants that need it also for the corporate identity to sit in an office that is a timber construction office. However, the 17,500 square meters, and don't pin me down on the square meter, is 15,000 square meters of lettable office space rather, and take out the ground floor. So it's limited. It's for some companies maybe not big enough. But what we feel from the feedback, from the first feedback that we are getting is very encouraging.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#58

Okay. I see. And also some demand for -- from investors will be there next year, you think so?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#59

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Because usually, the investors that didn't make it for the F.A.Z. Tower pulled back and are a little bit in a defiant reaction for a couple of weeks or even months. This time, it was not the case. They said, "Fair enough. Okay, we didn't make it, but we remain interested in the other building." And that's very unusual, very unusual.

Stefan Scharff

analyst
#60

So that means if the building permission would come in the first half of next year, you could perhaps think about a forward sale, let's say, at the end of next year?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#61

That's a very good guess.

Operator

operator
#62

[Operator Instructions] And the next question is from Andre Remke of Baader Bank.

Andre Remke

analyst
#63

Some remaining questions, probably a follow-up on the fourth quarter, your more cautious stance here. Do you see the risk of write-downs on your hotel projects, which are running at the moment or especially on the standing asset portfolio, is the first question, please.

Thomas Winkler

executive
#64

Okay. Not on the running projects, i.e., the ones under execution, because 2 are forward sold, okay? They are running according to schedule. We won't have any delays. We don't -- won't have any penalty payments from today's point of view, always subject to any disasters happening. And the 4 hotel projects that are under construction and haven't been forward sold are also running according to schedule. And they are valued at construction cost, okay? So the downside here is limited. The thing that is worrying us more is where do we end the discussions with the owners of the 13 hotels, which we have rented. Okay? And how do we see potential losses they are coming in on our side and on their side.

Andre Remke

analyst
#65

Okay. Excellent. Is there more -- looking into 2022, what you did, how would you size it -- is it to find market opportunities over the next, as you mentioned, 6 months or so to bring earnings really to pre-corona levels already in 2022, i.e., would a lack opportunity prevent you from a strong earnings recovery between '21 and '22. Because I assume that the current pipeline to be delivered in '22 is already attractive and new, say, projects, which you might acquire next year will only be delivered in, let's say, '22, '24. Or it is the wrong way of thinking?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#66

No, no, no. Andre, you're absolutely right. If we don't get our arms around opportunities, okay, we won't get to pre-corona levels, period. Now again, a common sense question. With the situation aggravating every week, how likely do you think that everybody is going to go through the crisis undamaged, after 11 years of boom, after a leverage of, in many cases, more than 90%, but with 36 months life, and often even with some mezzanine financiers involved that are desperately waiting for a building permit, which is not coming because the civil servant that is responsible for it caught COVID. Now if you say this all will result in nothing, the world is going to go back to normal mid of next year, there is no impact whatsoever and all the banks in this world that you know and I know are holding their feet still, okay, then there is a chance that we won't get back to these levels. If your common sense tells you, no, it will be at least like in the financial crisis that opportunities come out of this and I think the opportunities will be bigger, then you're pretty much there. At the moment, there are a lot of vultures circling over the dry land. Okay? And the good thing is we are not vultures. We are kind of elephants that are prepared to push the thirsty animal to the next water hole, if you want, maybe not the best of picture.

Andre Remke

analyst
#67

Yes. But again, if you -- I hear what you say, but what is really the case, if there are no opportunity. So nobody knows. I'm the same believer as you that there will be opportunities, but if this will not be the case, your current pipeline is [indiscernible]

Thomas Winkler

executive
#68

Then we will be at -- yes, then we will be at the lower earnings -- yes, then we will be at the lower earnings level because then we would have to kind of do business as usual. And that's not going to be good enough to make up for the kind of 12 months non-acquisition period. And it will take us longer to recover to pre-corona levels, clearly.

Andre Remke

analyst
#69

Yes. But as you indicated the EUR 200 million to EUR 300 million, if you divide it by 4, then you are up at, let's say, EUR 50 million to EUR 70 million. So this is the level you reached in the years before, probably not until we got to the last year, but -- so this is a sufficient level. That's what I want to say with...

Thomas Winkler

executive
#70

Yes, that's a fair mathematical assumption.

Andre Remke

analyst
#71

Okay. And so the opportunities will drive this on top of this?

Thomas Winkler

executive
#72

Yes.

Andre Remke

analyst
#73

Okay. And last question is, could you remind me on the property volumes which you might have to take on your own balance sheet into investment properties from not sold Kneuterdijk project. And how will this be financed? Will this be financed short term, midterm? Can you put some words on that?

Patric Thate

executive
#74

Yes, maybe I'll take this question. So I guess you refer to the hotels we need to cater for, for at least a certain time frame on our own books. Just a reminder of this one. 3 of these hotels, they are at equity. One is a fully consolidated one. That is the one in Kneuterdijk and -- in The Hague. Overall, I assume that we need EUR 100 million, maybe EUR 110 million in order to cater for that when it comes to balance sheet. When it comes to financing, we are pretty much down the road. The one reason for this one is, a, we have financed some of the hotels already with a longer view before the corona crisis because we thought maybe we need to pass on the financing to a buyer. So they are not ending with the development phase. They go a little bit further down the road. So there is enough time if we see we need to take them longer to come with standing financing. And for the one where we might need a financing because we have not done a financing yet, we are also close to get one. We are there looking at financing, which we take for, let's say, 3 years, for example. So we get into a standing financing there. So from a financial point of view, that is fairly digestible. From a balance sheet point of view, I love to take them off my balance sheet, if I could. But you have to see that they are roughly in the range of EUR 100 million to EUR 110 million.

Andre Remke

analyst
#75

Perfect. And the very last question also is to you, Patric. You mentioned the issuance of this Schuldscheindarlehen of EUR 52 million you are driving forward. What is the expected maturity here on the indicated 3% coupon.

Patric Thate

executive
#76

Yes. So what we're trying to do is we do an exchange offer on the EUR 50 million we would need to refinancing end of next year. So there are 2 blocks we have in front of us. One is the bonds, which is kicking in this year, which will be repaid. And the ones we are talking about the Schuldschein is the Schuldschein for end of next year. Maturity would be 5 years like the old one has. So it is, as I said, an exchange offer. And a good part of the money is hopefully coming from the exchange, and there's also coming from fresh money in. So we are looking at the 5-year time frame like the old one was. Basically, it's paste and copy of the old one.

Operator

operator
#77

And there are no more questions at this time. I hand back to Thomas Winkler for closing comments.

Thomas Winkler

executive
#78

Thank you, Haley, and thank you, guys. Great questions. Great interest, very encouraging for us. It is also a confirmation of the course that we are taking. I am always delighted to talk to you guys and look forward for the full year presentation. Until then, stay healthy, and have a nice Christmas. Bye-bye.

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