UBS Group AG (UBSG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. So first of all, welcome back to our European Financials conference. But more importantly, welcome to our next session. This is a session on UBS, and we're delighted to be able to welcome Iqbal Khan. Iqbal is the Co-President of UBS' Global Wealth Management business. And I think neither Iqbal nor UBS' Wealth Management operation needs particular introduction, but just -- by way of very brief context. So Iqbal joined UBS at the end of last year. Previously, he ran, Credit Suisse's International Wealth Management business for a period of just shy of 4 years. And UBS' Wealth Management Operation, as I think you all know, is the largest wealth management operation globally. And is unique in the sense that it has a truly global reach, essentially present on all key continents, and it also has a full product suite. Iqbal and I are going to structure this conversation along the 4 topics that you see on the screen. But before I go into Q&A, let me just pause here and say Iqbal, thank you for finding the time for joining us -- to join us here today at our conference. Even though it's organized virtually, thank you on behalf of Goldman Sachs and also on behalf of the clients that are joining us today, I'm certainly looking forward to this conversation, and I also hope that we make you feel welcome.So with that, let me go into the first question. So Iqbal, you've joined UBS in what was a normal time at the start of your tenure, but became a highly unusual time over the course of it. And I was just wondering, so from your perspective, as the co-President of the largest global wealth management business in the world, what are the factors that were really occupying you the most over these recent periods. And how, in a sense, how have you spent your time?

So thank you, Jernej. Thank you for having me. Look, being able to run and co-head, the largest Wealth Manager globally as you mentioned Jernej, together with Tom Naratil is really a true privilege especially in these unusual times. It is a privilege because this is the time where we get the opportunity to differentiate ourselves vis-à-vis our clients and to really demonstrate how we deliver value to clients. And I do feel that as I joined in October last year, we have a phenomenal franchise. It's a rock-solid franchise. I think Sergio, Tom and the team have done a phenomenal job in building this franchise. Three words that come to mind when I think about your question is fascinating, challenging and equally extremely rewarding. Fascinating why? So I've grown up in Switzerland, studied in Switzerland, worked quite a bit of my life in Switzerland, known UBS from before, worked as a competitor to UBS, admired UBS. But getting the opportunity to look under the hood at the largest Global Wealth Manager, is absolutely fascinating. If I think about the depth and breadth of this franchise, the industrial content and the unprecedented client access and true global diversification, it really is very fascinating. Now the environment is challenging. The operating environment specifically is very challenging. At the same time, I have to say, looking at the franchise, looking at the investments that Serg and the team have made over the past in technology, we've been able to be here for our clients and serve our clients in a very undisruptive fashion despite having people needing to work from home. And having very elevated volumes and interactions, specifically at the height of the prices and volatility. And we had more than 95% of people working at home. We've had 2 times to 3 times more volumes in March, 2 times to 3 times more interactions and thousands of client portfolio. Why is it extremely rewarding? It's extremely rewarding because if you think about wealth management, people look at wealth management, think about it as sort of like a finance business or a business where we're just thinking about how we help clients invest. But fundamentally, it's a people's business, and it's an emotional business. At this time, you can really, really prove yourself as an organization, as a franchise. And what really, I think, drives anybody who works in wealth management, is how do you add value and how do you help clients navigate through a time like this. I think it's a defining moment for this industry. It's a defining moment for this franchise as well because this is when clients realize who is actually adding value to them and who's not. And who's actually proactively working with them, bringing them ideas, navigating them through a storm and making every interaction count. That really, I think, makes it truly rewarding. What do I spend my time on the most? It's really mainly 2 things: clients and talent. It's extremely important to get that pulse from clients and where they are in their respective life journey and their respective evolution. And getting that direct feedback in terms of are we differentiating ourselves? Are we adding value? And what is it that we can be doing with our clients? At the same time, since I joined in October, on a weekly basis, I've had roundtables, one-on-one meetings with our talent and continue to do so even in this time, we just do it virtually, very similar to the session we're having right now. It is so important to also have the pulse of your people and understand what is driving them on a personal level, but also specifically on a business level, and why is it so important? Because Tom and I have a very clear job. We are here to create an environment and a set up where -- which makes it easiest for working with UBS or for UBS. At the same time, making it rewarding for our clients as well as our people.

So just sticking with the conversation that you're having with your wealth management clients. So clients in wealth management were very active in the first quarter of the year for all the obvious reasons. Portfolios were getting repositioned, and you alluded to the multiple conversation that you have in terms of portfolio reviews. How is a private wealth management client thinking right now? What are the common themes in the discussions that you're having? What is your advice to these clients? And what kind of behavior do you expect in the near future?

So let me just build on the client conversation I just had. Clients are looking for yield. Clients, at the same time, are looking for opportunities, given this crisis. And at the same time, they're also looking to get be navigated through this time and looking at the equity markets and where they are today and what that specifically means for their specific positioning, right? The client I was speaking to is an entrepreneur, very successful. One of the things the client said was, look, I can't just have piles of cash and not do anything with it over the next 12 to 24 months. I can't just sit on cash. That's not really going to render me any respective results. So fundamentally, that automatically gets into the conversation of a holistic perspective across that client's business, that client's investment portfolio, the asset and liability side. But more importantly, on the investment side, we've seen opportunities in credit. We're seeing more opportunities on the alternative side, destressed opportunities that are coming up. And one of the things that I think we leverage on is -- looking at us as the global largest wealth manager and also leveraging the investment bank, we get to see flows and what smart money is doing. What is smart money really doing right now? Aside from our perspectives in the market, aside from our perspectives on where this market is going and how you should be invested. What is smart money doing? And we're really seeing that increase in terms of clients looking at alternative spaces and credit opportunities on the one hand side. At the same time, if you think about more of the enduring opportunities, post COVID or just because of COVID, it's clearly thematic. If you think about digital, digital transformation, specifically, if you think about health care and sustainability. Let me just touch on sustainability. We've seen an increase in demand for sustainable investments. Just in the first quarter, a large proportion of the mandates that we were positioning with our clients were suitability related mandates. We have a very, very strong offering in wealth management for sustainable investments. Also in Asia, we've seen an uptick in sustainability-related investments. So I think there are sort of like 2 problems here, right? One is, how do I get yield? And how do I make my money work? On the one hand side, how does that fit in to my liquidity needs, my longevity goals as well as legacy, which is sort of like our 3L approach, which is called Wealth Way. How do you gear all of that together? And at the same time, what are the opportunities that are emerging, maybe with a mid- to long-term perspective, given COVID. Now you could argue, while digital transformation was already a topic before COVID-19. Sustainability was one as well and health care and medtech as well which has seen a further acceleration of some of these structural trends and secular trends through COVID-19.

Right. And Iqbal, you opened an interesting topic before. You said how you talked to a large client, an entrepreneur, he's obviously got resources and has cash sitting in his wealth management portfolio. Risk appetite is important for wealth managers. High-risk appetite means ability to cross-sell product into your clients and generate revenue. Cash is kind of a pedestrian investment in the best of times. But today, with negative rates, certainly not accretive to revenues and returns. Where is risk appetite? So Q1 saw volatility drive repositioning of portfolio and clients engaging primarily because of that. But where do you see the risk appetite now in more general terms? And in the near term, so let's say, towards the end of the year, how do you see it evolving? And how important is it?

So when we talk about risk appetite of our clients, I think let me step back for a second because it's a very important question you're asking. #1, we need to think about how do we advise our clients. Because if you think about what has gone on in the markets, I think what it has done is clearly created more need for advice, quality advice. Advice that is not transactional, it is holistic. And when I talk about holistic, it's assets and liabilities, liquidity, longevity, legacy, and it also takes the perspective of what is your bankable situation? And what is your non bankable situation? Because we cannot just focus on the invested assets with a given institution. We need to think about all the other components in the entirety of the wealth of our clients. So that, on its own without risk appetite or without the talk going into right now, quickly in the details of risk appetite, but I think that is the most important piece, right? And that is what I believe differentiates us. And through the volatility we've seen in the market and the way the markets have moved, has actually created more need for that advice and proactivity towards clients. So I think that's number one. And then if you look at clients, in terms of your specific question around risk appetite, I think it's a bit of a bifurcation in terms of clients. So some clients have a higher risk appetite and they see opportunity in this current market. And others see more risks or are more conservative given where, for example, the equity markets are, right? So clearly more caution related to the equity markets. But at the same time, clients who want to put their money to work are looking at, as I mentioned before, alternatives, distressed assets, credit, private markets. Private markets on its own is a huge opportunity. Think about the networking effect UBS can bring to bear for our clients. Now I build on the same conversation I just had this morning with this client. One of the things he was particularly interested in was the network we have. Because within our network, we can source private opportunities and we can distribute private opportunity. Which, in my view, is very valuable to clients and can deliver additional investment opportunities on the private side. Sustainability, globally, remain a focus also for a lot of clients. The more cautious clients are thinking about how do I diversify? How do I diversify more broadly? How can I hedge? Just had a client interact with us in a transaction where we did -- we helped the client reenter with a structured solution. So risk appetite clearly is mixed in terms of how clients are positioned, what their respective situations are, and it is differentiated. But equally, it has a lot of opportunities, as I just mentioned.

And yes, just drawing on that. I think you outlined well how -- what the immediate effects of this public health crisis are and how it's changing your interaction with clients and how we're changing the immediate thinking of clients. Is it too early to make slightly longer-term conclusions as to how you expect when things normalize, and eventually they will, how you expect the longer-term client demand for private wealth management services to change or to be impacted by what we're currently going through?

When we were going into this year, and we set out our plans, our CIO and the team brought out the decade ahead and that decade ahead was tied to a decade of transformation. And listen, a number of secular trends, be that digital, be that sustainability, be that thematic and so on. And more importantly, that we believe that advice is going to be very important. And what we've seen through COVID-19 in this crisis situation, that all of these secular trends have actually accelerated. We believe that the need for advice is more relevant today than it was even before. And clients are willing to pay for advice and willing to pay a premium for quality advice. If we look ahead, I think there are a couple of things that become clear with everything that's going on in the market, the world will be more indebted. It'll probably be less global and more digital. Now how is that relevant for client demand? Well if the world is becoming more indebted and rates remain low, and we do see higher inflation, potentially higher fiscal charges, the demand on our client side will have to take all of that into consideration. Wealth planning is going to become very relevant. Search for yield is going to become very relevant for our clients. Just holding cash is not going to be an option, mid- to long term. If you think about the world becoming less global, you could argue that if you take specific regions for our clients, their specific -- region-specific risks are increasing potentially. So global diversification, how you diversify your clients' assets and how you support them to diversify is going to become even more relevant. Multi shoring could be very relevant. So if you think about that, who is better positioned than UBS when it comes to global diversification, given the global reach and regional mix of businesses that we have. I think it's pretty obvious that things are going to become more digital because we did see a technological adoption over a couple of months that would have otherwise taken years. So investments in technology and digital transformation are just going to become more relevant. Once again, also there, be that from a business perspective or from a client demand perspective, that is something we believe we can help our clients with. We believe that now more than ever and even mid to long term, clients are going to value a relationship-based on who is adding value and who is not. Wealth management is not a quarter-by-quarter business. It's not a week-by-week business. It is all about lifelong relationships anchored around delivering value to our clients. And the 2 fundamental principles that we run our business by is whenever we do anything, the questions people need to ask themselves on a regular basis is how is this better for the client? And what is the value we're delivering to the client? And how does that end up in a commercial better outcome for us as an institution. If I go through a presentation with the team or Tom and I have in conversations with the team, and somebody comes over the presentation that starts with a structural discussion, we just put the presentation aside. The 2 fundamental questions that always have to be answered in a business that is there to serve clients is, how is this better and value-adding to our clients? And what is the commercial outcome of that? And that's not going to change fundamentally.

Here's a question I'm genuinely interested in your answer. Global wealth management chases GDP growth around the world, particularly for institution like UBS. GDP growth means value creation, and that's good for Wealth Management businesses. I've done this for a long time. This is the first time when we see a synchronized decline in GDP, GDP contraction around the globe. Can a global wealth manager do well in a world where GDP is contracting? And perhaps a follow-on even less intuitive, can a global wealth manager grow into a contracting GDP?

Jernej, so if you look at GDP, and yes, there's GDP contraction and a low yield environment. Are those challenges for a wealth manager? Absolutely, those are challenges and pose headwinds for wealth management. At the same time, if I step back and think about UBS, and its global footprint, its size, scale, regional diversification, the focus on advice. It's more about growing share of wallet with our clients and productivity. So there's clearly opportunity to mitigate headwinds and to grow. I think there are multiple levers and the 2 main levers that we're focusing on right now is growing that share of wallet with our clients. Leveraging off the back of our unprecedented client access that we have globally. Using the benefits of our network, as I mentioned, with the example of private markets I said earlier. And last but not least, focusing on productivity.

Right. When you start analyzing banks, one of the first things that you're taught is banking is a scalable business. Unit costs fall, the bigger you get, and you should try and scale up as much as you can. When we look at UBS and its scale, and compare it to wealth manager competitors in your markets where you compete around the world, all of them are much smaller than UBS. Some of them have returns that are lower. Some of them have returns that are on par with UBS, and some of them have returns that are higher. Why doesn't scale translate into superior returns? Or why hasn't it today? And what is the scope to get there in the future or to just boil it down to a single, very short question, what is the benefit of being big in wealth management?

So scale can be your friend, but scale can also be your enemy. And one of the things Tom Naratil and myself are very focused on is making sure scale is our friend. The larger an organization gets, it can lead to complexity to some extent, multiple management layers, layers within the value chain. Some of the things that we have initiated, Tom and myself, which are not new things. They're building on a very, very strong franchise and a lot of work that's been done and ideas that have been there, we're focusing on faster execution. The initiative that we launched is called Elevate. And it's relating to how do you elevate the business to the next level, which is very much building on what you're saying. Some of the things that we did center around simplified segmentation and more tailored segmentation of our client base, focusing very much on their needs and not just their asset base per se. The second thing we've done is really getting closer to clients, giving our businesses more autonomy, but also entrepreneurial responsibility. We've delayered our management hierarchy on a horizontal basis by multiple layers, bringing decision-making closer between client and the business. And at the same time, looking at the value chain. One of the things that Tom Naratil implemented in the U.S. very early on was thinking about our business in a bit of a different way. So let's look at our value chain. It's capability, content coverage. What is very important? Client getting through that value chain as quick as possible, as seamlessly as possible to get to a solution. How do you do that? Unify your capabilities. One example of that is unified global markets together with the investment bank. Which leads me to the third point, which is one UBS, that is the third key emphasis that we're very much focusing on. And unified global markets, why is that so differentiating for our clients? And why should that deliver more scale, more productivity, a better outcome for our clients, and give us a better shot at gaining share of wallet. Where, simple, largest global wealth manager, truly global, we see all private flows. Now you're marrying that up with institutional flows. So unified Global Markets team is one team serving institutional clients and private clients. Now think about that. If you marry that up with a house view with quality advice, holistic advice, asset and liability, focusing on liquidity, longevity legacy. What you're doing is you have a market view, you're having this very valuable conversation centered around advice with your client. But at the same time, coming back to the client conversation I just had earlier this morning, you can tell that client, what are we seeing. What are other clients doing? What are other clients doing, either on private client flow or an institutional flow? What is smart money doing? That is differentiating. And if you build upon that, clearly, that does bring material scale advantage. Now another example why scale is important is think about technology investments. I think it's very clear and more clear today than it was potentially earlier. You need to make technology investments, you need to build out digital capabilities. I think Sabine Keller-Busse, our group COO; and Mike Dargan, our Head of Technology, has done a phenomenal job because we were able to manage through this crisis undisruptively. We were open for business. We were there for our clients. We were exchanging with the clients, just to give you one stat. We had CIO, a regional team and myself, we hosted a webinar with client, with 6,000 active participants at that webinar. So technology has been very strong, but we need to invest in terms of digital interaction, omnichannel. So you need scale. You need the size to afford that.

I don't think you can be a global wealth manager without being present in the largest economy in the world, obviously, in the U.S., well over 1 trillion of invested assets in the United States for UBS. But part of the global wealth management business, which we from the analytical side, sometimes struggle with growth has come from appreciation of assets rather than net new money. The margins sometimes thinner than elsewhere in the world. Why is it so important that UBS has scale in the United States? What is the operating plan for the U.S.? And what is the forward for that particular part of the business?

If I look at the U.S. business and what the team have done over the last couple of years, and I just look at the improvement of profitability and productivity in that business. Looking at PBT of the last 4 quarters compared to 2016, we see a CAGR of 11%. And a productivity increase of the advisers by roughly 1/3 from $1.1 million to $1.5 million. So I think the trajectory in terms of productivity, and gaining share of wallet from clients is on the right track in the U.S. and to be very candid, some of the things that Tom and team have executed in the U.S., we've also imported outside of the U.S. One of the example was unified global markets. Another example is actually this emphasis on productivity and gaining share of wallet. If we then think about what you were mentioning in terms of profitability or thinner margins to some extent. I mean, there's an industry, there's a market in the U.S. and it has its own specificities. Nevertheless, if we look at a number of the initiatives that we're working on, be that in the ultra-high space, be that in the private market space, be that in the financing space, be that around the platform in the U.S., these are all measures that we believe will continue to improve productivity and profitability in that business and support growth.

We started off by saying UBS is the largest Wealth Management business in the world, and we covered scale. We then said, UBS is the only Wealth Management business in the world, which is truly global. And I think we covered the key geographies and the necessity for that. But I also said that UBS is the one Global Wealth Management business that has a full product suite. Within that product suite leverage, ability to offer loans -- lombard loans to your high net worth clients seems to have become more important as time goes on. And I wanted to ask you 2 questions. So one, you are quite explicit on your guidance for lombard lending recently. I was wondering to what extent guiding or targeting a certain volume of newly originated loans still make sense given -- just given how much the operating environment has changed? And the second question I want to ask you is, how do you think about this lombard loan portfolio from a risk perspective? And how likely is it that if the environment incrementally deteriorates from here, and it's an open question whether it will or not, how likely easy that that lombard loan book becomes a source of uncomfortable credit risk for the group?

So a couple of things on lending. Number one, the target that was set was -- is a target that existed already since '18. The emphasis on using leverage is a target that's actually fundamentally unchanged and was here before I even joined UBS. But thinking about this, again, from a client's perspective, why does it matter? Does it make the outcome better for the client? Is it valuable for the client? And then the second question is, is it valuable for the shareholder? And I think, yes, absolutely. It's valuable for the client, it's valuable for the shareholder. And it also comes to build on the point that you were making around scale. It also provides support in terms of scale and operating leverage. I think it's no secret that if you look at client leverage compared to invested assets, we clearly are at the lower end of penetration. Now if you look at the target per se, it's not even 1% of our invested assets. So even if you look at the annual target, it's actually less than 1 percentage point in terms of penetration. So I don't feel that this is a target that is unachievable. But very much it's driven by client demand. If we look at Q1, we actually saw a very good client demand. We did see an uptick in net new lending. The gross demand was higher. We did see some deleveraging. And absolutely, again, coming back to the point, it's not a quarter-over-quarter business. It's not a daily business. It's not a weekly business when we think about wealth management, but it always follows the same fundamental principle. Is it something that clients need? And does it deliver value to our clients? And absolutely, more and more clients think about assets and liabilities, bankable and non-bankable. And playing a role and being relevant for our clients from a leverage perspective, is very relevant because it is part of the holistic experience, and it addresses needs that clients have. A lot of our wealthy clients can be asset rich at times. Can be holding a lot of liquidity. And sometimes, they're more asset rich than their liquidity -- then they have liquidity, and they do then have respective liquidity needs. Looking at some of the experiences we've gone through and working with our clients, a number of clients saw opportunities and did use leverage just in Q1, as seen in the number. So I believe and we believe, fundamentally, it is not a new strategy. Number one, it is a target that we've had since 2018. It's less than 1 percentage points of penetration when it comes to lending versus invested assets. It is something that is part of a holistic experience for our client, it is something that clients demand. So for us to be relevant for the client is something that just as an add-on within the entire suite of services and solutions that we provide. In terms of riskiness, again, if we just say in Q1, I think Q1 was a stress test for a number of situations around lending and balance sheet etc. And I would say that we fared very well. The total CLE amount was, I think, roughly $50 million, of which some of it was modeled and some of it was related to actual provisioning, ,which is a very small amount. If we look at margin or margin calls in Q1, specifically in March, which is really the height of volatility and correction of the market. We have, I think, roughly 3% of clients with lombard loans that actually were confronted with a margin call. So I would think that we have a pretty conservative approach to lending. We do it on a collateralized basis. We look at the entire relationship of a client. But fundamentally, we don't do it as an objective. We do it as a means to an end. Lending is part of the entire offering and is one that is relevant to clients and for us to be relevant for clients is something that we too provide.

Switching tech slightly now, so I think I've lost count as to how many times in this conversation you've mentioned technology, and I've mentioned technology. The 2 of us are meeting virtually now, none of us are traveling. All the meetings are taking place in this format. You pointed out to some of the benefits of technology, it's fully scalable. You had 6,000 clients join you on one of your calls as per your previous comments. It just feels that obviously, this is disruptive, and we'd like to go back to normal, but it feels that the new normal is going to be different from what we were used to before. It feels that we front-loaded what would otherwise have been a much longer process of introducing technology and adapting our work processes around technology. What parts of what we are using today? What parts of leveraging the technology more do you think are going to stick around? And to what extent do you think some of the best practices that we've acquired now, are likely to continue in the future?

We're very much thinking about exactly that question. And one of the things that we've seen is, if you just look at the last couple of months, you could argue and say that we've had technology adoption that would have otherwise taken years. So in months, just in a couple of months, you've seen more technology adoption than you would have otherwise seen in years. So coming back to the point that I made before, is digital transformation and technology relevant? Absolutely. And was it relevant before the situation? It was. But it got accelerated to a point, which makes it even more relevant in the future. You mentioned our interaction. Today, more or less, every interaction is the way we're having this conversation. Being able to use that and leverage that will lead to changes. And what is also interesting is, again, we need to think about the client in all of this. You also need to have the clients and clients adopting technology and wanting to interact through omnichannels. And I think that is very different and has been different by regions and by markets. Not all clients are digitally savvy, not all regions have the same digital usage and adoption. But what happened through this situation was everybody needed to use it. And I can see it myself, on my own self. You realize it's pretty efficient. And once you've actually realized that it's efficient, it is something that does deliver the same level of value. You're going to use it. And this adoption is going to continue, and this will lead to things like do you need to travel as much as you've traveled before? Will you need to have the same level of physical meetings as you did before? I personally don't believe that the physical interaction is going to go away. We are in a business of trust, and we're in a business of being able to express that trust and -- but you could argue, and I think we will be seeing that you will be doing materially more for technology than you did before. Also interesting is that a lot of the technology was already in-house. You don't get to have this level of adoption in a very short period of time if that technology wasn't available or deploy that technology without any significant disruption to remain open for business and have those interactions with clients and with your people. So that technology was there, it just wasn't being used to the same level as it could be. So I do believe that this is going to have a lasting impact in terms of how we interact and how we do business.

Which now brings me to the final question. We talked about UBS now for the entire length of this conversation. But Iqbal, you are in a pretty unique position in that you have headed the International Wealth Management business of your largest competitor for a number of years. Know it inside out. You've now been at UBS, I think for 9, going on 10 months. So you're getting to know UBS very well from a unique standpoint as the co-President of the Global Wealth business. When you compare and contrast UBS versus the competition, and I don't want to ask you the question too directly because I'd like you to be able to answer it. But where do you see comparatively, the biggest opportunities for UBS? Where do you think that you, in your position, can make the biggest difference, knowing what you know about the very broad competitive set?

So looking at UBS and looking at the franchise, and I need to apologize, I might sound a little bit repetitive to what we've already been saying. #1 global franchise, regional diversification, $2.3 billion -- sorry, $2.3 trillion, billion in is German, billion. So -- but trillions of assets. What gets me excited? A 1% move, anyway of those assets is hugely significant to bottom line. The network of clients that can be globally connected. Leveraging that network to the advantage of our clients and our shareholders can be extremely powerful. And what I've experienced, having been at UBS and other wow experiences. When UBS and the teams are all aligned and we're delivering, it is pretty material and significant in terms of outcome and results. We've seen some of that in Q1. So if I just look at all of these elements, I personally believe that there is significant potential in our global wealth management franchise. And Tom and I have one clear job. It is to execute and deliver convenience to our people and to our clients, making it easier and rewarding for our clients as well as our people at UBS. And I personally believe that, that does give us quite a lot of potential as global wealth management, as UBS on a go-forward basis. Notwithstanding, there are challenges and headwinds that we're all confronted with either from a market environment perspective, be that from GDP contraction or lower yield environment or what has been going on in the markets. So absolutely, there are headwinds in this business, but there are -- I do believe that there are multiple levers for Tom Naratil and myself to execute on and execute seamlessly and fast.

Excellent. Well Iqbal, look, we've come to the end of this conversation. I think remarkably we've covered everything that we set out to cover in the time that was allotted to us. It's certainly very convincing. And I'd just like to thank you again for this, and I most certainly hope to see you, hopefully, in person at some point in the near future. Thanks again.

Thank you, Jernej. I really appreciate you having me, and looking forward to seeing you one-on-one, not just through our digital channel.

Thanks a lot.