UDR, Inc. (UDR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you. Welcome to Citi's 2021 Virtual Global Property CEO Conference. I'm Nick Joseph with Citi Research. We're pleased to have with us UDR and CEO, Tom Toomey. This session is for Citi clients only. If media or other individuals are on the line, please disconnect now. Disclosures are available on the webcast. For those joining us here today, to ask management any questions, simply type them into the question box on the screen, they will come directly to me, and I'll do my best to ask them during the session. Tom, I'll turn it over to you to introduce the company and any members of the management team that are with you and make opening remarks, and then we'll get into Q&A.

Great. And Nick, thanks again, and it's always good to see you and be at this conference, even if it is virtual this year. So with me today is Jerry Davis, our President; Joe Fisher, our CFO; Mike Lacy, Senior Vice President of Operations; Chris Van Ens, Vice President of Government Affairs, and we generally refer to him as the Swiss Army knife; and Trent Trujillo, Director of Investor Relations. Last week, we posted an updated presentation on our website, which includes both strategic and operational updates, and summarizes how UDR has performed in the past and as well as how it's positioned to continue to perform in the years ahead. An overview of our business. UDR is a $19 billion S&P 500 apartment REIT that operates a diverse portfolio in 20 markets with over 52,000 apartment homes. Our strategy is to continue to be a full-cycle investment. What do we mean by that? Consistently generating above-average peer cash flow growth as well as dividend growth, which we believe translates to superior TSR. How do we do it? First, diversification in markets and submarkets, both urban, suburban mix, A and B quality and price points; the second, a well-diversified capital allocation opportunity set overlaid on those 20 markets, including operations, redevelopment, development and DCP programs; and lastly, best-in-class operations with a flexible approach towards our residents as well as an investment-grade balance sheet. That strategy has been in place. I've been with the company 20 years and has led to an annual compounded growth of 12% over that 20-year window. So a quick thought on 2020. Clearly, like any other -- unlike any other year we've ever experienced, but it reinforced the resiliency and effectiveness of our business strategies. In particular, I would highlight that overall earnings were only down 2% in '20, even in light of the pandemic. Turning now to '21. There's an update on Page 5 of our current operating results and shows both strong stabilization in physical occupancy, improvement in our effective blended lease rate growth, and Mike will be able to answer any of your questions with respect to that, but go through it in detail. And additionally, our focus in '21 is continued roll out of our next-generation operating platform, which helps us in many fronts, not only interact during the COVID environment, but also as a product that our residents are eager to use, as evidenced by 93% of our leases in the fourth quarter were all done touchless. Jerry is on the call with me and will cover that topic as well. So as we look towards the future, we feel excited. We're off to a good start this year and feel like we have the right strategy, the right team, the right culture to not only perform well in '21, but in many years to come. So with that, Nick, why don't I turn it over back to you?

Great. We're starting this session off with the same question. Coming out of the pandemic, if an investor were to choose only one real estate stock to own, what are the 3 reasons why they should invest in UDR?

Thanks for that question. Why you should invest or buy our stock? I think 3 points that you asked for. First is diversification, specifically a variety of value-creation mechanisms, geographic footprint, price point that contribute to outperformance in both up and down markets, a full-cycle investment. The second is our innovative culture that embraces technology and change and is responsive to our customers. In particular, our next-generating operating platform is the future way of doing business, if you will, a self-service model that enables us not only to meet the customer needs, but manage our cost structure very effectively. And lastly, our strategies that have continued to work and continue to lead to relative outperformance, in particular, the operations team.

Great. Why don't we start there with operations? You mentioned the operating update for anyone watching. There's a presentation, I'm looking at Slide 5. How are things trending, I recognize it's early in the year, but versus your initial expectations?

Nick, thanks. I'll take that. I would start by saying 4 weeks ago, we were on the earnings call, we talked a lot about stable trends and occupancy blends and how that was leading to build revenue being stable. As we sit here today and as you can see on Page 5, we're starting to see a sequential increase in our billed revenue, and that's a function of what we've done over the last 6 to 9 months as well as what we're seeing today in our billed -- excuse me, our blended rates being slightly above positive and our occupancy stabilizing in that 96% to 96.5% range. So we've been cautiously optimistic. The last few weeks have been positive. We're going to continue to focus on optimizing total revenue, pushing our blends where we can and maintaining that occupancy in the 96% to 96.5% range. I'll tell you the other things we're looking at today is helping our residents. A lot of them have been impacted. With the state federal funds opening up, we've seen success in providing them the information they need to be able to go out there and apply and get funding. So it's been nice to be able to do that. And then the third thing I'd say is we're continuing to roll out that platform. And we're about halfway there through our markets through the first couple of months of the year, finding success in both our controllable operating margin as well as doing business the way that our residents and prospects want to interact with us. So those 3 things have really allowed us to push forward, I would say, over the last couple of months.

From a market perspective, which markets have surprised on the up and the down?

I would tell you, the biggest surprise for us the first couple of months of the year has probably been Boston. So one of the markets we've talked about that's been in that 20% of NOI that's been the hardest hit. Boston has been pretty strong. We're running around 96% occupancy today, still seeing concessions in the 6- to 8-week range downtown. But our suburban assets in the North Shore and South Shore, really next to nothing on the concession side. So we've been able to kind of push our market rents up there and maintain that 96% occupancy.

And how are concessions trending across the entire portfolio?

Across the entire portfolio today, we're around 3.5 weeks. On average, I would say, we're still seeing around 70% basically next to nothing. So pretty stable to what we've seen over the last few weeks.

And are there any markets where you're kind of using more concessions coming into the spring? Or have you seen the tapering off across the board?

In general, it's tapering off at a slow rate. And again, we're taking it market by market, property by property. There's a lot of cases where we just -- we weren't offering concessions, and we're starting to push our market rents. And then those places where we had some of the higher concessions, we're starting to bring them back down. So New York and San Francisco is a great example. I would say, specific to San Francisco, downtown and SoMa area where we saw concessions of around 8 weeks, we're starting to see between 6 and 8 now. And it helps that our occupancy is pushing closer to 94% today. So we have a little bit more ability to bring those down as we move forward.

You mentioned Boston. Obviously, Manhattan, San Francisco were the other 2 more challenged markets. I mean what are you seeing the demand trends for those markets? And then I know you do a lot of work in terms of who's actually moving in. So what sort of changes have you seen of your resident versus pre-COVID?

So for those markets, in particular, we're still seeing a lot of movement within the MSA. So not necessarily people coming from outside. People bargain hunting, looking for the deal, trying to secure because, frankly, I think a lot of people realize that market rents are going to continue to go up as we move forward into the leasing season. So those markets, it's a lot of movement from within. I would say the biggest surprise for us has been a place like D.C. That's where we've seen more people coming from outside the MSA. And I think a lot of that has to do with just the change in the presidency and things of that nature. But for the most part, that's the experience we have across the board.

And how about for New York and San Francisco, specifically, has the age or the income level changed versus pre-COVID of new movements?

Yes. We would point to Page 17, we have seen a lot of the people that left that area were in that younger age cohort. So what we're watching today is really as the places start to open up, how do they come back and where are they going to come back to. And what we're expecting is some of the B quality urban assets will start to see that first. And so that'll be kind of a leading indicator for the market. Right now, though, again, it's just a lot of the same type of people bouncing around within those markets.

Are you expecting to hit an inflection point on blended lease rate change?

No. Probably by second quarter, third quarter, you start to see more of that. It's going to be market dependent. We're already seeing it in some cases in some of our stronger markets. But I would say, as you get into July, August when concessions were the heaviest and as market rents stay kind of where they're at today and you can slightly increase, you will hit that inflection point. So we're watching them all very closely. But again, we've actually already experienced it in some of our stronger markets.

I think, too, just speaking to the inflection point, speak to the loss to lease where you sit today versus the gain to lease previously, 60-day trend [indiscernible] movement. You can see it on Page 5 here in terms of blends really starting to hook up now as we stabilize that occupancy. So give a little more color on that one.

Sure. I would say, especially looking at these trends, you can see, October was the trough, if you will, and our gain to lease at that point was pushing almost 6%. Today, we're sitting between 0% to negative 0.3%. So we have a loss to lease today. So we've been able to go in a very short period of time pretty large gain through -- it's not significant yet, but just the fact that we have a loss to lease has been promising. And again, you could look at this by market, and you're going to find that spread is far greater in some areas that -- compared to others. But generally speaking, it's been exciting to watch that move at a very rapid pace.

What are you seeing on the collections front? I know there is some seasonality with the update during earnings. I mean how collections trended over the last few months?

Yes. We've actually seen a little bit of an improving trend on the collections side. We dipped out. And November and December kind of trailed off versus what we've seen in prior quarters. Say, January, February and then start of March, trends are generally taking about 20, 30 bps ahead of what we were seeing in November, December a little bit due to probably getting individuals back to work, a little bit due to stimulus checks, tax refund season and a little bit, Mike kind of referenced it earlier, what we are starting to see is a stimulus package, the last 2 of them, at almost $50 billion of rental assistance in them. And you're starting to see that work down into the city and state level in terms of the programs that they're rolling out. So we've already seen Virginia and Massachusetts. We collected about $0.75 million there out of those programs. The state of California is set to go live next week, assuming they get the website up and running. So we think this is a pretty big positive item for us as well as private sector as a whole to start getting support to those individuals that need it. For us, specifically, we have almost $20 million of AR related to long-term delinquent residents, and we've preserved almost $18 million of that. It's almost 90% reserved against that. So anything better than that $2 million or, call it, $0.10 on the $1 that we can collect through these programs is going to be upside from a same-store perspective, from an earnings perspective. So as long as we can stay at the front of the line and get access to those dollars, I think we have a positive to come. There is definitely a lot of work involved. We've got an internal task force focused on this for the last 30 to 60 days. There's a lot of handholding and work involved in trying to contact residents, make sure they get signed up, make sure they have the appropriate paperwork and support that they need and making sure that our properties are on the system. So there is a lot of work involved, which means those individuals that don't have the resources, those groups that don't have resources, probably a little bit more difficult to jump to the front of the line. So excited to see kind of where that goes in the next 30 to 60 days for us.

And can you walk through that a little more? I mean is that a state by state? It's federally allocated dollars. But how it's actually happening on a more granular level across your portfolio?

Yes. Unfortunately, I got a pretty busy one with my [ 17 years ] somewhere that goes into each program. If you go out East to the guys that rolled it out most quickly in Virginia and Massachusetts, they're typically looking for -- they're looking to reimburse 100% of rents, but it is going to be dependent on AMI or previous issues in terms of unemployment or stress related to COVID. If you go out to California where they are headed is reimbursement of 80% of past due with a priority to those at 50% of AMI, those that are on unemployment and then gravitating up on AMI thereafter. Orange County already had a program locally that they rolled out and closed. So each one of these is a little bit different. I'd say, generally speaking, they're mimicking the 80% coming from federal government, 20% forgiveness from the company and really targeting those impacted with lower AMIs or those on unemployment is what they're trying to go after and help first on the priority list.

And then these programs need to be applied for by the resident or -- you mentioned the handholding. Is it possible from the enterprise to apply for any of this?

Therein lie some of the difficulties. Each program is a little bit different, but pretty universal throughout. You do need some degree of compliance and going along with us from the resident. So we can go through our side of it, but you do need them to sign off on the application. So you do have a number of residents out there that have provided us declarations of hardship and are communicating with us. But for each one of those, you have an equal amount that are refusing to engage and just taking advantage of the regulatory environment. So it's really trying to figure out how do you get those individuals to potentially wipe out their past due debts and kind of get a fresh start. What we are doing is, of course, trying to communicate in every which way with them, but also providing incentives to the residents that apply. So actually providing cash incentives. If they do apply and if they actually do get assistance, we will cut them a check or give them rent forgiveness on a go-forward basis to help incentivize them to participate. So it's a win for them. It's a win for us. So we're trying to get a little bit creative on that front.

As we think about kind of eviction moratoriums ultimately coming towards an end, what -- how are you thinking about kind of retenanting any of the portfolio there? And then what other kind of regulatory focus do you have today?

Yes. I think, one, just to put it in context, there are a lot of headlines out there in the media related to the forthcoming wave of evictions. And those individuals will be facing homelessness. I do think it's a little bit overblown. With our portfolio, we're looking at around 1,000 individuals throughout the entire portfolio that were long-term delinquent. And that's right around 2% of the portfolio that's just not paying. Obviously, as moratoriums come off, we'll continue to do what we have been, which is try to work with them on payment plans, try to get them assistance, try to keep them as a resident and get them back to current. But if they don't pursue that, then we'll pursue the legal remedies and potentially have to move towards eviction. But I don't think the wave of forthcoming evictions and retenanting is nearly what the market expects it to be. I do think as well when you think about eviction moratoriums is that what's going to really drive a way -- vacancies are going to drive a wave of demand. I think the bigger issue is just the reopening of the markets. As you go through the vaccinations, the reopenings and put individuals back to work, when you look at a lot of the states that have done that already that have the lower unemployment rates, we have very minimal delinquencies. We have strong occupancies, strong pricing power. So I think that's really the template for us is get those markets reopen, get people back to work, money in their pockets and then they start coming back to work. So I think that's more important than if the CDC eviction moratorium ends up to an extent from 6/30 to 9/30 to year-end, it's more about get people back to work and then they can get back to paying rent nevertheless.

Maybe switching to the operating platform. You've obviously invested a lot into the enhancements there. So where are we today relative -- so kind of where we were pre-COVID? And then what should we expect in the near and medium term?

Yes. I'll take that, Nick. To date, we've accomplished about 50% of the benefit that we expected when we rolled this out in 2018. At that time, we said NOIs would go up $15 million, $20 million, been about halfway done as of the end of '20, we'll get another 25% of it this year and the last 25% will come in 2022. We've reduced our site level headcount by a little over 30%. We'll end up somewhere high 30% by the time we're finished. We've rolled it out to about 10 markets now of our 21. We're just rolling out D.C. this week, and we'll hit Orange County next week. The intent is to have every market rolled out by October. So we're going to go hard until May, then we're going to take a break during Mike's heavy leasing season because it can be disrupted, and then we'll reengage in the last couple of markets come September and October. But again, I think things are going well. Our customer satisfaction scores have continued to do well. We've installed SmartHome technology in 42,000 of our 53,000, 54,000 homes. And one thing Tom and I have been working with our Head of Technology about is what's next. So we found some follow-ons to platform 1.0 to create even more efficiency. Part of it was outsourcing quite a bit of our maintenance functions. We're going to go back and try to get more efficient on that, find better pricing, better synergies. Secondly, today, we run about 8 to 10 of our communities with nobody in our leasing office at all. And we think we can probably double that by the next year, 1.5 years as our technology and our centralized systems improve that are creating more efficiency. Then the other thing we've been doing at the same time, we've been creating this cost structure improvement, which last year in our controlled expenses were only 0.2%, both sectors up almost 2%. In the last 5 years, we've averaged about 0.7% while wage inflation has been 2.5% to 3%. So while we've been doing all of that, we were also creating a data app where we can collect all of the information from a variety of our systems that we think will help us run the business better. And we've identified the potential to drive occupancy even higher long term through improved resident retention as well as turning units quick -- more quickly. We think there's a lot of opportunity to improve both customer satisfaction as well as really understand behavioral demographics, if you will, of our resident base. So those people that are more inclined to stay with us 3, 5, 6 years, we think there's things within those people that we can derive through data that will help us better go get more of them, entice them to live with us in a higher propensity. And for every 1% improvement in the retention, it's about $1.5 million a year. So when you look at Mike's total vacancy loss is $45 million to $50 million. So we think that's the potential. We'll never achieve the full potential. Mike will never have 100% retention in [indiscernible]. But that's kind of what we're going after. And we size that we hope we can get about 20% of that so-called agenda. But the potential is out there to get quite a bit more. So there is quite a bit -- I guess to finish now, there's quite a bit left in the platform, one, and we're already working on the next stages.

What are the main risks when you're rolling this out to a market perspective? And how is the buy-in from the -- on the ground folks?

The team, I think they've seen it coming. They've understood it's coming. I think COVID proved to them that they can do work touchless. With the electronic technologies that we've rolled out there, I think they've seen that's helped. Yes, you're going to have some of our associates that will not buy in. And as we were going through the process and we were able to get rid of 30-plus percent of our workforce, most of it was done through natural attrition. So as we were hiring new people in, they understood the new concept. Other people, if we offer them the position, they have the opportunity to decline. Many of those that we didn't think would be a good fit, they're getting great severance package. They're going to continue their career somewhere else. But that's part of the risk. The other risk is will the technology be ready? We're convinced it will be ready. I think today, it's probably 80% of the way there. We're working through some things that I think will define over the next couple of months. Yes, I think it's a change in the way we do business where it's not as salesy, it's a transition to more of a customer service focus. But the majority of the associates that have rolled -- and again, we've done about half of the portfolio already. We're about 10 markets in. We've had very few people as we rolled markets turning their keys to the office and say, "I quit." They seem to be helping us work through some of the change and enjoying -- creating what we just deemed to be a way of doing business in multifamily in the future. So pretty good buy-in. And the residents like it. When you look at our NPS scores and compare them to where they were in 2018, they're up about 24%. So I think we're convinced our customers do prefer self-service and the ability to do things on their time as long as you have technology that works. And our technology, while it's not perfect yet, it's well on its way.

Tom, what's the best capital allocation decision today?

Joe?

Yes. Similar to the playbook we've been operating by for the last year or so, which is DCP, first and foremost, we like the developer capital program. At this point in the cycle, when you're getting the lows, it's nice to do that from a risk-return perspective. Returns that we're seeing are a couple of hundred basis points better than what we are seeing pre-COVID. And the best part about this that we always think of is what's the optionality on the backside. There are assets that we want to own and markets we want to own in. So if we can put more dollars out there and more chips on the table, 3, 4, 5 years from now and hopefully, we have the cost of capital, you can go out there and buy some of these positions out because we do have a little bit of a blocking position the way we document these assets and make sure that they're restricted from when they can refi and when they can sell. So still DCP. The other piece that you've seen a lot of us kind of working on here is just how do you keep churn in assets and creating cash flow growth. You hear a lot about everything in the market, so 4 cap. But if you have the value-creation mechanisms in place, be it bread and butter ops, the platform that Jerry was just talking about, capital programs, improve an asset or find assets that are impaired from a sale process perspective because they might have uncovered that on and [indiscernible]. There's a lot of different levers that you can look to, to turn a 4 cap into a 4.5 cap pretty quick. So if we can keep selling 4-cap assets, as we have done for the last year, and buy 4.5 cap year 1s and then grow 5 plus over the next couple of years, it's just a manufacturing and cash flow without taking risk, without diluting the quality of the portfolio, without diluting the quality of the market, that's a playbook that's operable in any given market. We did it pre-COVID using our cost of equity. We've done it during COVID using dispositions as a source. So I think you'll see us keep doing that, how do we keep it more platform-friendly, operationally friendly assets into the portfolio.

Nick, I'd add. I mean that's one of the benefits of having a 20-market platform, A and B. We don't get -- trap ourselves in a channel. So often, we're looking for buy the one next door, which defined by us is about 10-minute drive, and we don't have to add anybody. No people added when we buy those assets. So we know what the rent is because we're competing directly against it, and we can revamp the entire cost structure immediately and get those types of returns that are not available to the marketplace of just winning an auction. So I think that's what you're going to see us do a lot more of, is look at the one next door. We already know the market. We've got plenty of exposure to 20 of them. We can figure out where to go. And overlay that, we picked up the pencil on the portstrat again. And Chris has made a next iteration of it. It's enhanced. I like the results it's yielding.

How large could you grow that DCP program?

We've been in plus or minus $300 million now for a year or 2. I think internally, externally, we've talked about kind of $400 million to $500 million if we can get there. Obviously, over time, you have repayments coming back to you. So you got to replenish those to the extent that the opportunity continues to exist. But we'd like to get to a couple of hundred million. During the COVID pandemic, you've seen us do a couple of deals, typically in the plus or minus 13, 14 IRR-type range. We've got a couple more in the pipeline that we're working on right now. So hopefully, get through due diligence, get those signed up and be able to talk to them with the Street sometime soon.

Do you see more competition for those? Certainly, it seems like others have entered that space.

Yes. There was a lot of competition, obviously, pre-COVID. A lot of debt funds, most funds, et cetera, out there, that we're allocating capital to that space. The competition is starting to come back, though. During the depths of COVID, obviously, cap of all forms pulled back for development. But we are seeing more competition come back in that space. The beauty of it is, though, we're not trying to deploy $1 billion. We need 1 or 2 or 3 deals a year. So we can kind of be a little bit selective and find the opportunity.

And how has the performance been during COVID? I mean have you seen any disruption from the existing portfolio or even others within these kind of management-preferred deals?

Not really. We managed the construction time lines kind of keep on top of those and try to understand what's taking place there. There's a little bit of slippage primarily on some of the coastal products, primarily in California. You saw a little bit of slippage that you talked about in a month or 2 where you had potentially mandatory shutdowns or maybe even a COVID-induced shutdown with the crew that was on site. But no real disruptions there on that front. Thankfully, we've got a little bit of a lead time. We got paid back on one deal that worked up great, The Portals out in D.C. at year-end. But we don't have any more paybacks coming this year. Next round of paybacks will start to come next year and then '23. And so we've got some time for the market to recover, get fundamentals going in the right direction, as we've talked about, and then hopefully, participate in the back-end success. So over 80% of these do have back-end participation. What we'd like to kind of do is that plus or minus 9% for us to then go get 30% to 50% on the back end. So as we get to the exits, hopefully, you get kind of this nice benefit of either more dollars coming in on the repayment or gives us a little bit of a blocking position to participate in a purchase of that asset.

How are you thinking about the densification opportunities today?

Yes. Still very much there. I'll say slow-moving. For everyone's benefit on the call, we started talking about this more over the last couple of years, but going out and trying to find opportunities on underutilized space in a real estate, be that excess parking space, unit densification, trying to split up units into multiple units, taking all modern space, all amenity space and putting in units. So we do have a whole slew of projects that we're looking at, anything from kind of onesies, twosies to up to 40 units. And those are moving along. I'd say the biggest hurdle has simply been the COVID shutdowns. A lot of the municipal offices having them shut down, their inability to kind of keep the process moving forward for us has negated our ability to get those kind of into process. But they are moving along. So hopefully, more to talk about there as we keep moving forward on them.

What are your top 3 priorities to improve your ESG score next year?

Yes. I'll take that, Nick. And maybe to recap where we stand, and I congratulate Matt Cozad and the team and Chris Van Ens, who really focused on this for the last 3 years. And so where do we stand today? We're top quartile results for a variety of ESG reporting agencies. On GRESB, we're a top performer, a score of 83, near the max on the S and G. Low-risk rating by Sustainalytics, and we published our second annual CRR compliance report. We're in compliance with GRI, SASB, TF, TCFD and about 16 others of these. But what are our priorities? On the E side, enhancing our commitment on the sustainability operations. I mean we're addressing climate risk through the installs of SmartHomes as well as smart buildings. We're about 80% of the way there. It helps us reduce our carbon emissions, energy consumption, water usage and certainly, hardening the assets on an ROI positive CapEx initiatives. All the details on Page 22 of the presentation. On the S, which is our second priority, we already have a strong culture, 97% participation in our annual -- semiannual engagement score with our associates and do well there. But the most focus right now is on our DEI focus group, and we've engaged consultants to work with us on that and see if there's further opportunities in that area. And on the G, it's always the same. It's active engagement with our investors as well as their ESG shops. And on the investor side, over 300 active engagements last year alone, that's representing 90% of the shareholder base. And on the ESG shop, actively engaged and in dialogue with that both groups, which represent over 60% of the shareholder base. But most recently on that front, we've aligned part of our executive compensation around our ESG score and corporate citizenship. So I think we've got the right focus, the right balance and certainly a talented team working on it.

Great. Well, we're going to close with our rapid-fire questions as always. When we're sitting together physically in Florida a year from today, what would be the one thing that will surprise people the most about your business over the prior 12 months?

I think 2 parts. Generally, the strength of the urban recovery. Probably in the B product in an urban setting, specifically to UDR, is the platform penetration and results of it and the clear value creation by that investment.

What do you think your corporate travel budget will be in 2022 as a rough percentage of what you spent in 2019?

I don't know if I have a percentage. I think it's going to be generally down due to acceptance of the virtual format. So...

10%, 20%?

10%.

What will same-store NOI would be for the apartment sector overall next year in 2022?

5% to 7%.

And then finally, what will the 10-year U.S. Treasury yield be a year from today? Today, it's about 155.

I'm still looking for the check. I've hit it 3 years in a row. So at some point, are you going to mail me a check?

Yes. It's in the mail. It should be there soon.

I don't want to discourage you, but 2.2.

2.2. Great. Well, thank you all for your time. Really enjoyed it, as always. And I hope the conference goes well, and we'll talk soon.

Nick, always thanks. Take care. Appreciate the invite again.