Ujjivan Small Finance Bank Limited (UJJIVANSFB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you, Abhishek. Good evening, everybody, for joining us on this call today. In these unusual unprecedented times, let's start with thoughts and prayers for all the people who are fighting this out. On our part, we've been trying to play our role, which I'll talk about a little later, but let me first cover the headline numbers for you and then the rest of our perspective around this whole situation and the things that we've done. And in the end, I would like to talk about how we see this whole situation unfolding and what it means for us and for Ujjivan. So we delivered a fairly good performance in Q4 sustained over the last 3 quarters. We continued with that momentum. Our AUM grew by 28%. Our deposits grew by 46%. Notably, retail grew by 72%. CASA ratio has also improved to 14% from 11% last year. In all of this, we were able to also rein in a lot of our operating expenses. So our cost to revenue has -- for the Q4 has come down to 65%. And I think we are well on track to deliver more efficient outcomes on that. Our cost of funds has also come down to 7.9% for Q4. And as a result, we were able to deliver a PAT of INR 73 crores, which is 15% up year-on-year over the last year. We have provided for INR 70 crores as prudent provisions for COVID, which we're calling as COVID provision. Now these are -- this is largely on account of the fact that -- and I'll cover this in a lot more detail as I go along. But this is the likely impact that we expect in delayed repayments because of temporary disruption of economic activity of our customer sets. And I will take you through in detail in terms of how we've arrived at this and what is the work that has gone behind us. Our yields have been stable at 20%. Our PAR has been in control. It's actually come down marginally to INR 276 crores over December INR 281 crores. And our GNPA and NPA remained strong at 1% and 0.2%. We also increased the provision coverage ratio to 80%. I believe that this is the highest amongst the private sector banks, and now our total coverage is 1.6%. We have renewed our focus on our digital trust, so a lot of initiatives which I'll talk about in detail. But if you look at the investor presentation that we've circulated, there is a slide on all the digital transactions. Almost all the important metrics, whether mobile banking, usage, UPI, bill payments, et cetera, they have all more than doubled during this last 1 year. We have been able to also undergo a lot of improvements in our internal workflows by using digital, and that has resulted in [ all ] turnaround time that we deliver to our customers. Now during this time, as [the ] situation started to unfold, we actually had a very good quarter till about the middle of March. So it's reasonable to say that 11.5 months out of 12, we had absolutely no problems. You have seen that in the Q3 results also. But we were disrupted, obviously, because of the lockdown. On our part, we had taken a few steps. We had formed a quick response team way ahead in the first week of March itself. And we had taken a lot of testing-related measures on business continuity. We tried out with shifts, we tried out with all kinds of other security measures to make sure that our employees are safe, our branches are safe. And we also tested working from home much before the lockdown was announced. So when the lockdown was announced, actually a day before itself, on 23rd of March, we suspended our field operations because we were getting feedback from the field that there were difficulties in moving around, and a lot of local authorities were restricting the movement of people. But in all of this, as we moved to working from home because we had tested this out and we had given VPN access to a lot of our staff to keep the bank up and running, we were able to manage operating almost 98% of our branches. Wherever the 2% we could not operate on a given day was because of some local restrictions or some orders that the local authorities would pass, not so much to do with or anything else to do with the system. Our ATMs were fully functional, fully stocked. Our branches were working. Our payment operations were working. And at the same time, we were also keeping a very strong vigil on cybersecurity. We retrained our people during that time for cybersecurity, especially the people who are using the VPN access. And we made sure that all of this was managed in a manner that the QRT was taking stock by the hour, and we had daily briefings with our regional teams and offices. During this time, when all of this was going on, just when the lockdown started to happen, when the lockdown was introduced and we start -- we moved to working completely from home. We realized that now response has to be more widespread -- we have to spread out our overall response. We cannot just focus on making the bank run because that we had already taken a lot of measures on. We had started communicating with our customers around the 10th of March. We started a program called Janta-Connect. And that time, the whole purpose was to make them aware of COVID, make them aware of the testing facility. And in that time, we had also tied up with a doctor-on-call service, which we offered to our customers so that they can consult doctors if they wanted to consult for any symptoms. So we were doing this in social messaging, and we had already got in touch with nearly 2.5, 3 lakh customers by the time the lockdown came about. So we intensified that. We also formed a Business Continuity Monitoring Committee of the Board of 5 of our Board members. And this committee of the Board helped us oversee all the activities and helped us with any approvals that we needed, and we needed a lot of approvals during this time. So during this time, a combination of the activities that we did under the guidance of the Board, plus the QRT that we had set up in the bank, we were able to deal with the situation as it continued to unfold. Now the first priority for us, while we did want to take a full stakeholder-led approach to this whole crisis, we have -- we always have identified set of 6 stakeholders: our employees, our customers, our investors, our book, the society, the regulators, the industries, and then you also have the local authorities, the government and the media. So we said that we will come up with a plan, a set of actions which keep all the stakeholders in mind. We will involve all the stakeholders. We will collaborate with all the stakeholders. But most importantly, we will prioritize our employees and customers. So the first thing that we did just the day before the lockdown was announced was that we extended a COVID insurance cover for our employees. Now it's incidental that in that week itself, we also got to know that we were the fifth best place to work in Asia amongst large corporates. But it just helped us reassure ourselves that we really need to take care of our employees because they always stood by us in times like these. So we were continuously in touch with our employees through our various teams in the head office, all working from home. We had lots of calls. We were finding out what was going on. We were helping them with decisions, but we also empowered our teams to take decisions on the ground. The information flow had to be actioned obviously as and when it was coming from the employees, but we were able to put that to action because the QRT was continuously monitoring and as I explained it was on the ground. In the same time, a lot of our employees also volunteered on their own. We did not ask them to, but they volunteered on their own. They went out and distributed dry rations. They helped with the -- with PPE kits and masks. Wherever else that they could locally, we did a lot of that. So we also made sure that our commitment to the local communities and the society is also retained and intact. As far as customers is concerned, we continued calling them. The discussions which were from social messaging on COVID, it moved towards talking about moratorium. So when the moratorium was announced by RBI that weekend, we prepared the policy, took the Board approvals. And Monday morning -- the next Monday morning, we were ready with the moratorium policy, which we introduced to our customers. So we said that we will give 100% moratorium to our micro banking customers. But for all the other businesses, we reached out to each one of those customers because repayments would be due only from 5th of April. So we had that time from 29th, 30th of March up till 5th of April. So our teams on the MSE business loan side, affordable housing, personal loans and vehicle finance, we got in touch with each and every single customer. And at the same time, our micro banking teams were getting in touch with the micro banking customers. The branch banking teams were getting in terms -- were getting in touch with the deposit customers. So the micro banking customers were told about the moratorium. They were told that not to worry. We started to ask them about the difficulties that they were facing during this time, any disruption in their economic activity, which was obviously anticipated. But with the MSE and housing customers, we actually asked them if they needed the moratorium. So some customers said they need it for a month, some said that they need it for 2 months. So we went up to almost the initial first cut was about 50%, 55%. And gradually, it went up to 70%. Today, we have offered moratorium to 70% of our customers. And we also started corporate activity. And by that time, I think we had already covered about 2% of our customer base. We conducted an extensive survey on a sample of about 90,000 to 100,000 customers to find out the real impact on their livelihood by occupation type by market as well as their income level. So we asked them very specific questions, which was rolled back and we will go back and revisit our credit policy. Now in this time during the lockdown, what we also did was that we created very high-powered focus groups, cross-functional groups of our senior leadership which were talking to all the regional employees. And they were assigned very specific tasks, like one team was given the task of making sure that [ the team was working ]. Another team was given the task for fast-tracking all the digital initiatives. Another team was given the task of making sure that the deposit accretion continues the way we expect it to. And this time -- and all this time, we did not have any problem with the deposit accretion. It just continued the same way as it [ was ]. So these teams actually helped us prepare for a lot that we wanted to do in the year by helping us prioritize and fast-track some of those things. One of the teams, for example, was on cost rationalization. So this team went out and started renegotiating on the contracts and the rental agreements, et cetera. We've been able to get some good success just in the last 2 to 3 weeks itself. So what I'm trying to say is that we shifted gears in the middle of the lockdown, the first phase of the lockdown itself towards the first week of April, preparing ourselves for the post-COVID world. We did not want to excessively continue focus on reacting because that we had done. We were taking care of our employees. We had got in touch with our customers, and we continued doing that. Towards the -- I would say towards the end of April, we had actually finished, I think, our entire customer base. So nearly 5 million customers had been contacted. We had spoken to them. And by that time, the whole discussion from social messaging on COVID, to moratorium, to finding over their hardship and whether they needed any kind of a top-up loan or an emergency loan gave us very good insights in keeping ourselves ready both on the tech side as well as on the credit policy side. One of these 7 teams was also required to work on the credit policy framework, the early warning systems and other signals that we needed to read at this time. So we prepared those capabilities also. So in a nutshell, you can say that we actually made very good use of this time to prepare ourselves for the future. And I'm personally very happy with the outcomes that we've got, and our Board is also very happy with the outcomes that we've got on all of these schemes. The other stakeholders, which we obviously had in mind, I covered society. We also made a donation to the GiveIndia Foundation from our CSR budget of INR 45 lakhs. We were periodically updating the regulators. We were also collaborating as an industry both in microfinance as well as the small finance banks. And a good amount of information sharing and ideas around problem solving, also sharing perspective, also happened. And at the same time, we were in touch with our investors, as some of you might have joined us on those conference calls that we had. And we also had a lot of one-on-one calls. We just made sure that we kept all stakeholders on Board and everybody was continuously updated. And we took inputs as much as possible from whoever we could so that we performed better. Now in all of this, the readiness for us to be dealing with the present situation where the lockdown has started to get removed and for a future world where there is uncertainty but there is a reasonable certainty about certain ways of doing business, which is now getting clearly established, we believe that we are well prepared for that both from a product offering point of view, from a technology point of view, from digital workflows point of view, from partnerships point of view and from our internal workflows, even on the credit and collection side. So coming to those digital projects that we were able to fast-track, I'll just give you some examples to highlight this. We had created a product called the Loan on Phone product to recycle microfinance customers. And we had just about launched it in January, February, and we were trying it on a very small scale with the hope that in the next year, we will learn this business and we will try and scale this up. Now during lockdown, we actually did a very extensive UAT. We had fixed all the bugs that we had come across, and now we are in a position to launch that to our entire base. And you would agree with me that because we do almost 60%, 65% of our business, sometimes going up to 70% also of repeat loans in our microfinance business, the ability to do that business on a remote basis in an environment where we may or may not be able to meet our customers face to face that much, that is going to be very, very helpful for us. So we were sure that we needed some ways of contactless business, and that is what we were able to clearly bring out. The second thing on the liability side, we introduced our digital savings and fixed deposits. There were some issues with those product offerings. We fixed those tech issues, and we relaunched them on a more customer-selected basis. And our branches started to open accounts even remotely. So we were getting in touch with our customers. At the same time, our branches actually prioritized senior citizens when they called because firstly, we just wanted to check on their well-being and if at all, they wanted any health. So some of the employees actually went out and delivered groceries and medicines also to customers because they needed help with that. They were senior citizens and they were on their own. So things like these, plus there was another initiative that we were working on, which was to set up a network of customer acceptance both for payments and for any other activities through a partner relationship. So we were able to fast-track that, the whole digital integration with that partner, and we were even able to pilot that with one location. And today, we are in a state of readiness to roll that out at scale. So now if you have to look at the microfinance business, let's say, we cannot go into field into a center meeting. Let's say customers don't expect us to be meeting them in groups, at least for some time. We have an alternate model ready, which is going to be on the phone. And over time, we will introduce this on ATMs and even on the mobile app. And at the same time, for repayments or otherwise, we will have these points very close to the customer place of residence or otherwise, which will be very useful for them. So we won't have to depend on field collections. And these are things which will matter in future because we also believe that this is a good time to reimagine the entire business altogether. Coming to the -- on the tech side and digital. We also made sure that our API platform with the gateway was made ready during this time of the lockdown. We were able to also collaborate with a lot of fintechs. These conversations which were very premature, we moved those conversations ahead. And we are in a good state right now to be able to start a lot of pilots. In fact, we've done quite a few pilots even during the lockdown. But these are going to be useful for customer onboarding. These are going to be useful on the credit side. They're also going to be useful for us from digital repayments. That was one other thing that we prioritized. And the survey that we did with customers, just the fact that almost 25% of them are happy to [ speak with us ] on the phone for repeat loans. We also found that an equal number of customers or more are ready to also repay us digitally. In fact, in April, while everybody was on moratorium and even in May when everybody was on moratorium in microfinance, we did see a lot of customers come up and pay on their own. And almost 1/4 of those customers paid us digitally, which otherwise they would not have. So we also saw a lot of first-time digital customers, which gives us the confidence that there is acceptance. And if we improve the -- or increase the overall reach of acceptance points as well as the ways in which customers can pay us digitally today, we have only PayTM and Instamojo. But if we have more such arrangements, which is what we worked on, our customers will not find it very difficult to adapt to these digital repayment methods. We also continued working on some of these customer segment-specific initiatives, like the mobile app for our micro banking customers, the mobility solution for onboarding MSE and housing customers, all of those UATs, et cetera, were completed while we were working from home or some of us were coming to office. In fact, in Bangalore, we started coming to office from 13th of April itself. So the leadership started to come in -- from 13th. And subsequently, we also started to get about 33% of our workforce in shifts also coming to office. So we've restored a lot of our operations both -- not just in Bangalore but also in our regional offices. And as of today, be it based on the zoning, green, red and orange, nearly 60% of our branches are operational for all businesses. I mean for branch banking, all the branches are operational, the 98% that I said earlier. But for all other businesses, also we have started field operations from 4th of May in about 60% of our branches. Now when we are doing the field operations that we restored, we are finding customers who are paying us on their own. So just till today, for example, we have collected nearly INR 80 crores from these customers who are paying on their own. So they never needed the moratorium, which is what they told us also when we were talking to them. So our whole hypothesis is that by providing for this INR 70 crores of COVID provision, we are only trying to provide for customers who have a temporary disruption who have told us when we've spoken to them. And since we've spoken to all our customers, we have a very good idea that how many of our customers are expecting disruption of a month, of 2 months, 3 months or customers which will go up to 6 months. So our analysis is that not more than 4% of our customers will have any severe impact on their livelihood because this is not a crisis where the livelihoods have been impacted. They've only been disrupted. It hasn't gone away. And I think we believe that this is like a extended natural calamity that we've dealt with in the past, and you would agree that we have good experience of having dealt with natural calamities in the past. I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that we remain as strong as ever. So you are aware that we had a full IPO. So we had a lot of capital. We did not need too much of deposits in the last quarter. As a result, we've also been able to bring down our cost of funds, which we have systematically done. And that's how we have -- our cost of funds has come to 7.9% in Q4. LCR has been 261% in March. So our liquidity even during this time has been absolutely -- we've been flushed with liquidity. And in this time, CRISIL also reaffirmed our rating, which they had given us as A+ -- A1+. So that also got reaffirmed. We also were given the Best Microfinance Bank in India award by Asia Money in the same time. So a lot of good news was coming in even during this time, and it seemed like nothing is happening. So we were very positive, and we continue to remain positive. We were working on strengthening our management team, and a lot of lateral hires were in progress. We had made offers during Q3 and some of them in Q4. So I am happy to share with you that we've had our new Head of Credit, Kalyan, who joined us in September; our Head of Digital, Dheemant, who joined us in February; our Head of Liabilities, joined us in -- Shrinivas, who joined us in April; our Head of MSE, Rajeev, he has joined us just today; our Head of TPP, Pradeep, he's joined us in the first week of May. We also had our Head of Digital Marketing, Avinash, our Head of Ops Risk. So a lot of strengthening of the leadership team has also happened in the last 45 days to 60 days. And we continue to commit ourselves to the fact that we will strengthen our offerings to our customers, and we will continue to build strength in our leadership team also. In the whole customer survey that we did, and this is the narrative that we've had throughout and for all those of you who have attended these calls, first of all, the general tendency that microfinance is all bottom of the pyramid, is all hand-to-mouth, is not true. So we have been emphasizing, and now we are very clearly -- we have very clearly established that through this customer survey and the contact and all the information that we've had. So let me tackle 2 or 3 issues that have usually come up in this time and otherwise also. Most of our customers, nearly 50% or more are engaged in some kind of essential services, which is groceries or dairy or provisions or all those kind of things. Most of our customers have a secondary source of income. Most of our customers are in their own business. So they are not dependent on daily wages. In fact, we don't deal with customers who are on daily wages. The question of migrant labor also came up during some of these investor discussions. And our response to that is very simple. One is that we deal with them and borrowers. They are usually not a migrant. Our credit policy is such that we'll lend to people who have been at the same residence for at least 5 years, so that rules out people who come and go. So we don't have those floating population customers in our portfolio. And three, we always look at the secondary source of income. So from that point of view, our customer selection has been extremely good, very, very careful. And I think that is holding us -- held us in good stead in the past. And even now I don't think we have any risks on the account -- on account of any demographic disparities in our portfolio. We also have a strong network of rural branches, 144 of them. And unlike some of the other entities who might have a BC network, these are our own proprietary branches. And the rural economy, like all of you would agree and that's been the general understanding in the industry, that the rural economy is going to come back much faster. And in some parts, it hasn't even been impacted to that extent. For example, our rural customers are largely -- 91% of our customers are into some kind of allied agri or dairy business. And when we have been speaking to them, they've been telling us that, other than the fact that they can't move around because of restrictions on movement, they haven't seen any [Audio Gap] demand. It's just that they can't supply. But the demand hasn't changed. So they are the first ones to come back on their feet, and they are probably already on their feet. So the rural set of branches for us and even the semi-urban branches which cater to a lot of rural markets, and that's the reason 1/3 of our portfolio is rural by customer location, we believe is going to come back much faster and probably has already started to come back, at least that's what we are experiencing in the last 2 weeks of restored field operations. The Atmanirbhar package announced by the government, I think there are opportunities for us on the MSE side. We have examined that. There are opportunities even on the affordable housing side. But because the retail guidelines are yet to be issued, we are keeping ourselves in a state of preparedness to be able to take decisions as and when those guidelines are announced. We made use of some of these relaxations that were announced by RBI. So when we had the chance to take some funds from SIDBI at a much lower cost, we did that. And that is how we have been able to bring down the cost of funds on an incremental basis. And we have been watchful of all such opportunities that have come along the way. And this committee of the Board that we had formed has helped us with all kinds of approvals during this time because we were very quickly able to convene this committee or send it by circulation and take decisions via and when we wanted to. Lastly, I think a bit about how we think, how we are going from and where we are going from here, and that is important to us because we will not waver from our charter of serving the unserved and the underserved. We are committed in taking ourselves to mass market retail bank by using technology and digital. We will make sure that we are in a position to offer all kinds of relevant and multiple products for our customers. On that, I've given you some examples of that. We also believe that the target market that we cater to is on its efforts. They're not stagnated. There is a temporary... [Technical Difficulty]

Excuse me, sir, this is the operator. Hello, members of the management?

Yes. Are we okay now? Can I...

Yes, sir. I would request you all to please mute your phones at least for those 2 minutes. Members of the management, you may please proceed.

Yes. Can we start again?

Yes. Sir, you can start from [indiscernible] .

So as a bank, we remain committed to our charter of serving the unserved and the underserved by use of technology and the other product offerings and careful credit selection. There is no deviation from that. If at all, during this time, we have only fast-tracked things to be able to prepare ourselves in a much better manner. We are also optimistic about the recovery because like I said, the customers that we deal with, they cannot remain economically inactive for a long time. They are also not linked to the larger economy. They operate in local microeconomics ecosystems. And to that extent, their rebound is going to be far faster and far more resilient also. There is going to be demand for credit because there is going to be increased business activity, so we don't see a problem with that. Rural economy, like I said a little while back, we expect that to come back to the normal levels pretty soon, considering everything else, including expectations of a normal monsoon, et cetera. So in this time, we have really strengthened our commitment and our purpose to serve the underserved and the unserved sections. Our employees, our leadership team, we've all come together. We focus on through these cross-functional teams that I spoke about to help us prepare and retool ourselves to run our businesses in a different manner, in a manner that we would adjust to the new circumstances because we don't know how these new circumstances will unfold, but it is unlikely that they will go back to exactly the same that they were pre COVID. We have been able to do that. And like in the past, Ujjivan going through several of these crises, which you're aware of, we have always come out stronger and more committed. Even this time around, we remain optimistic with some measured caution, but we are hopeful of a gradual revival and a sustained growth of the economy. I'll stop here and ask you to open this up for questions.

[Operator Instructions] We take the first question from the line of [ Varun Mehta ] from ICICI Securities. As there's no response from the current participant, we take the next question from the line of Manish Ostwal from Nirmal Bang.

My question on the operating expenses outlook in FY '21 because our business will be slightly in a slower side. So how much we can save on the operating expenses side compared to FY '20 and overall operating expenses to average asset ratio?

See, I don't know how much we'll be able to save, but I can only tell you that we are not leaving any single line, and we're going line by line. And these empowered teams that we've created have been able to bring out a lot of efficiencies, not just in the obvious ones like rentals and contracts, but even in some minor things like credit bureau, for example, or any other expenses that we would have on security, housekeeping, stationary, postage, whatever else. The other large expense for us is our people cost. Our headcount has remained the same since December. In December, we had reported about 17,800; at the moment, for March, is also around the same number; and even in April, it's around the same number. We don't need -- we don't believe that we would need to add to the employee expenses. So all I can tell you, Manish, is that we are trying everything possible wherever we have the chance to reduce the expense and improve the efficiency, either as a combination of negotiation or by using some digital techniques to improve the efficiency. For example, cost of acquisition, we do see an opportunity to reduce the cost of acquisition for some businesses. But to what extent, I will not be able to tell you till we test that. But all such things which matter, anything that goes on as a cost item is being looked at, even things like any possible hypothetical revenue leakage.

Second, on the INR 70 crore COVID provision. How did you arrive that number? It is ad hoc provision? Or any portfolio basis prudent judgment we have taken?

I'll have Sneh tell you in detail as to how we've come to that. But you can -- from my point of view, I can tell you that it's a combination of what we see in our portfolio, what the RBI prescribed as well as some management [ overviews ].

So just to delve a little deeper on this, we've actually reviewed the bank's performance during the previous crises, which are inclusive of natural calamities we have faced across multiple states as well as demonetization. What we could gather from this exercise and share with you is that COVID is an event which is similar to natural calamities, where the livelihoods are severely impacted and that too, in the short term. And the borrowers will be able to resume a certain level of normalcy within, say, 3 to 4 months of the event. So in comparison, COVID has a variation here where there is no damage to the business assets or the borrower houses. So the challenges here are there is disruption in terms of supply chain and transportation issues and limited movement of people on the ground. And this has reduced the income for our agri and allied activities as well as for other essential services. And for the rest of the small-scale enterprises, it is dependent on the dynamic COVID zoning index as well as the lockdown being lifted. And apart from this, like Nitin sir also mentioned in his initial speech from the survey, what we can gather is that majority of the customers has stated their ability to bounce back within 3 months of the lockdown being lifted. So considering all of this, we have taken INR 70 crores upfront, which constitutes 2.5% of the portfolio. And as we resume operations from June, we will be able to ascertain the need for additional provisions on a quarterly basis.

Sure. And lastly, can you confirm the one data point? Of your total loan book of INR 14,000 crores, how -- what percentage of the loan book is under moratorium at an aggregate basis? That's it.

See because micro banking is bulk of our customers by numbers, you can safely say that 99% is under moratorium, okay? But in the other businesses, like I said, MSE and housing, if you break it up that way, then 70% of those customers are under moratorium; micro banking, 100% under moratorium. Personal loans is about 60%. And I think vehicle finance is similar to micro banking because the customer sets are more or less the same as micro banking.

Okay. And that is by value -- in terms of value, right?

By value on an aggregate level, it's at 90%. By number of cases, it's at 99%. These are the bank [ levels ].

We take the next question from the line of Viraj Mehta from Equirus PMS.

Sir, if I -- my question was about the micro banking division. Sir, my question was regarding the micro banking division. If you look at all the microfinance companies, the provision taken by all of them ranges between 1% to 2%. And the early assessment of a lot of the players also is in the region of at least 2%. And -- but our provision seems to be much lower than that.

Sorry, you'll have to repeat the question. We just lost altogether at the time you were asking.

So I was saying that if we look at the provisions done by a lot of microfinance players, the range is between 1% to 1.5% of the book, which is much higher than the provisions we have taken. Any specific reason that we have taken such lower provision?

I don't think we've taken lower provisions. It's just that we know our book. And based on the book and the past performance and the fact that we have very clearly established contact with our customers, we know exactly what is happening on the ground. We know exactly what they're saying. We have taken an informed decision rather than a decision which is a hypothesis.

Sir, just last question. Some of the micro...

So the provision in terms of how much we provide for, right? It's not -- every bank have got its own book, so everybody will take their own decision. So I don't think there is a need to compare. And most importantly, we have done this whole survey with customers to actually find out occupation level, et cetera. And in any case, our PCR is 80%. So I don't know in what context it would mean that it is lower.

Sure, sir. Sir, in terms of reaching the client, what is the -- have we been able to reach, as you said, all the clients -- I mean, more than 97%, 98% of all our clients? Is everybody -- we are able to locate everyone?

Yes. Of course. On the phone, I mean, we have not gone and visited. But even if it is..

Yes. On the phone, yes.

We have spoken to 5 million customers. Now 5 million out of the 5.2 million is whatever proportion. So that is why I said we...

We take the next question from the line of Renish Patel from ICICI Securities.

Thanks a lot Nitin for the detailed presentation. Sir, a couple of questions. One is on the 4% of... [Technical Difficulty]

Mr. Renish Patel, I would request you to please hold on sir. We will just reconnect the management as there is some echo words on the management line. I would request all participants to please stay on line, we will just reconnect the management. Requesting you all to please stay connected. Mr. Renish Patel, you are in the question queue, I would request you to please hold on for a minute, we are just trying to reconnect the management. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for patiently holding the line. We have the management reconnected on the call. We also have Mr. Renish Patel who is in the question queue. Sir, you may please go ahead.

Yes. Sir, 2 questions. One is clarification that you said in your opening remarks, about 4% of our customer base, is not more than about 4% customer base is having -- seeing any serious impact. So this is at the company level or this is only microfinance customers?

So this is microfinance and also on a sample, the sample size that I told you, about 90,000 customers.

90,000 customers. Okay. Okay. And then so would you be able to give us some color in terms of data point of these 5 million customers who we have contacted in terms of, let's say, how much of proportion that would be under agri and allied activities? What is that feedback on the recovery, et cetera?

We are -- I mentioned this earlier that customers who are in the business of any kind of essential services now that groceries and all of that is also essential services or agri, that's going to [ push ], okay? We -- I can take you through the full occupation details if you want, but that will be like an overload of that. But the point that I was trying to make earlier was that we don't have customers which constitute daily wage earners. We don't have a constitute of migrant beyond a very small proportion, okay? So most of our customers are self-employed. They are rooted. They are not moving around. And they are in various different occupations which are mostly self-employed or -- and within self-employed, they are in the businesses of essential services, groceries, et cetera. Dairy, livestock, et cetera.

All right. And in terms of collection, you have said that 25% of the customers have said that they are ready to pay or maybe some of them has already paid. So can you please clarify those 2 data points? How much of them have actually paid? And what proportion has expressed an interest to pay?

So when we were doing our first set of calls rather than second set of calls on moratorium, about 20%, 22% of our customer said that they don't need the moratorium, okay? But there was no way of taking consent or otherwise. So we had given an opt-out to our micro banking customers, which meant that we had given it to all our customers, okay? But at the same time, in the month of April, we had a very small proportion, but nonetheless, some customers who actually made a trip to our branch because branches were open. They came and repaid. And a number of customers who repaid us in April, 1/4 of that paid us digitally. In the third set of calling, which we did to also take feedback on occupation level and whether they'd be open to repeat loans on the phone and whether they would be amenable to digital repayment, that is where we got the feedback that 25% of customers are okay to deal with us on a repeat basis on the phone. And an equal number is ready to also pay us digitally, which means that today, while it's a very small proportion of customers who pay us digitally, less than 2%, we have an opportunity to engage meaningfully and move those customers to digital repayment. To that extent, there are 2 things we are doing. One is that we are talking to our customers and helping them migrate. And two, we are increasing the overall width of digital payments that we today offer to our customers.

Right. And sir, just a follow-up on that. So you have said that we have implemented a lot of digital payment initiative. So apart from BC, what are the other models we are trying out on the payment -- digital payment side, especially for the microfinance customers?

See BC is not digital. BC is just an example...

I mean the arrangement, yes. Correct.

Touch point which is in close proximity to the customer's place of work or residence, okay? On the digital side, today, we have the QR code. We also have UPI. And we have 2 payment gateways of PayTM and Instamojo, okay? We are working with one fintech today, and we have already done a fairly -- our advanced level of piloting with them, where we would be able to give multiple payment gateway options to our customers. So that will hopefully increase the overall reach of the digital payments. And then it's up to us. We will have to still do the hard work of helping customers move to that. We've got a lot of hope that in the coming years, we can on a focused basis try out this differentiated model of contactless lending through the phone and later through the app and the ATM and contactless repayment, which gives us a chance to completely reimagine the business. Otherwise, this field operations in the new circumstances, we don't know whether it's going to be exactly the same as pre COVID.

We take the next question from the line of Mamtesh Sugla from NewQuest Advisors.

My quick question is on the deposits. Retail term deposits also have declined just marginally compared to December. But the broader question is, how are we witnessing deposit accretion across various segments like CDs, institutional deposits and retail deposits? And was it driven by premature -- increased premature withdrawal as a percentage versus past quarters?

Yes. So this question has been coming, quite honestly, from the time the Yes Bank moratorium happened, okay? But we did not see any premature withdrawals. We did not see any flight of deposits. On the contrary, we kept seeing the usual accretion of deposits in the same way, okay? So we have had no problems in our deposit attrition. Now to your other point as to the slower growth in deposits in Q4 over Q3. I did say that in my opening remarks that because we had the IPO money also with us, which we had to use for business purpose, we did not need as much deposits also. So not that we went slow on deposits, but we were okay to let go of some that we could have otherwise bought at a lower -- at a higher rate. And we've had the chance to reduce the deposit rates in this time. So that's how the cost of funds has been trending lower for us. And we believe that if you have access to low-cost funds to all these other things that have come about in the last few weeks, we will be able to balance our book -- the deposit book in a manner that the cost of fund continues to come down. But the focus on retail deposit continues exactly the same way. Our branches have been in touch with customers. We are acquiring new customers also through the digital wing. And as and when we open up on full scale, we will be in a good position to do exactly what we had planned to do at the beginning of the year.

Understood. And just a last question on that is, are the deposits stable as of -- after March?

Absolutely stable. And in spite of we dropped our rates last month, our deposit inflow has been absolutely the same and stable in spite of that.

We take the next question from the line of Anand Dama from Emkay Global. [Operator Instructions]

Sir, can you please provide the breakup of [ SA and CA ] deposits in this quarter?

Yes. We can. So our total CASA was around INR 1,437 crores, of which -- INR 1,459 crores, sorry. And current is INR 229 crores, savings is INR 1,230 crores.

Okay. Sir, can you please provide these details every quarter in the presentation itself?

We can.

Yes. Sure. That's helpful. And secondly, sir, what will be the percentage of our deposits, which may be to a bulk or a wholesale bracket all together?

So our proportion of retail deposits is 44%. What is -- the other kind of deposits are from our institutional clients who we deal with the -- especially the cooperative banks, et cetera. And some very small proportion, about 3% to 4%, are government deposits. But the trajectory is to increase the share of retail deposits. And we've said this in the past also that we would like -- one is that all our advances should be funded with deposits, and 80% of that should be funded with retail deposits. So we are on track as far as that is concerned except for this temporary disruption.

But sir, how this wholesale deposit operating would comprise of what percentage of deposits we have about 40% to 50%?

Sorry, can you say that again? Couldn't hear you very clearly.

So of the wholesale deposits, the cooperative banks will be made to push, like in the -- what percentage that would contribute?

I'm sorry, we can't hear you very clearly. Your voice is breaking up.

Sir, I'm saying that the wholesale deposit. Of that, you said that the cooperative bank deposit share is relatively higher. So what is the share of the cooperative bank in the wholesale deposit?

We'll come back.

We can come back and share that information with you. We have a full analysis on that. But I think one other point that usually keeps coming up is the concentration. So that the top 10 depositors, I think, has been coming down as a proportion over a period of time. And as of March, I think the -- it is 37% of the FIG book. And at a bank level, it is probably at 17%, 18%.

Okay. And sir, that -- the moratorium will get over by May 31. So any request from customers, be it microfinance or non-microfinance customers in terms of moratorium extension? And what is your view on the new SME scheme, which was launched in the economic package?

So I mentioned that a little earlier that all the schemes that have been announced. They do -- they are very meaningful for us in MSE as well as housing. We have analyzed that in detail, but we do want to wait for the detailed guidelines to be able to actually respond. Sorry, what was your first question?

So in the case of microfinance, do you believe that there could be a moratorium extension that would come, too?

See, we don't think there is a need to do that because the lockdown is gradually being lifted, as you know. And for the -- like the new rules of the lockdown 4.0, it's only restricted to the containment zones. We are hoping that there would be gradual reopening, which is what we're seeing in the last 2 days -- 2 weeks of our field operations also and in our customer conversations. So if that happens, most customers are already going back to their -- some levels of restored economic activity. So in our view, it may not be necessary at all.

Okay. But sir, are you not able to hold a center meetings yet, right?

So that is the reason why I said that there has to be new ways of interacting with customers on a contactless basis. Now center meetings may not happen. But even in the past, when this whole situation has started to play out from February onwards, we had to do doorstep collections.

Okay. Sir, is it possible that we can do door-to-door collection for all the customers? Is it possible?

No. It's not possible. That's why I was about to say that it does put some overload on us. But we have to manage that full situation carefully or maybe smaller groups, whichever way it works. And we have to be flexible enough to take those calls, and that is what we have prepared our teams in the regions and our branches to take those calls because we can't be sitting here and telling them that don't go to a center meeting. Go to a center meeting where there are only half the number of people. We won't be able to do that sitting here. So we have a set of guidelines. There are a set of do's and don'ts that we have prepared in the last week of April because we were expecting some restrictions to go off in the third version of the lockdown. And that is how we've been able to restore field operations and 60% of our branches from 1st of May with [indiscernible] .

And in that case -- yes. So in that case, what is the ultimate loss that we believe will actually come through in the microfinance portfolio. We have made about 50 basis points provision on the entire portfolio. But particularly, into microfinance, can we expect at least 3% to 4% loss ratio?

I wish I had the [Foreign Language] to tell you that. But I think we have to wait and see how this situation evolves from what we know right now and our past experience and what -- like the way Sneh explained, we have taken a lot of prudent cover on the books, okay? We are optimistic because we have been in touch with our customers in terms of revival and going back to normalcy. We are hopeful of that. The only worry is that this will -- this goes unchecked and spreads very, very rapidly in -- across the country, then we have a different issue staring at us. But the important thing is to be prepared to take all kinds of actions, which is what we've done, and look at alternate ways of interacting with customers and running our businesses, which is what we have done. But very hard to say how it's going to be and what it is going to be.

And sir, I think you talked about the management changes which have happened in the bank -- I mean, other than you as well. So can you just briefly touch upon those changes, where from these people have come? And what is your strategy going forward? And do you feel there are some gaps still there in the bank where you need to fill the [ position ]?

So like I said, we have strengthened. I don't want to go into details of where they come from. It's part of the investor presentation deck, their entire profile of the leadership team. But I think it would suffice to tell you that we have strengthened by bringing in lateral hires, people who have the experience and the specialization in those lines of businesses but more than bringing in people just laterally because Ujjivan has always been able to attract a lot of good talent, and we continue to do that. So we've been able to strengthen our team by bringing in roles where we our strategic emphasis is. So it kind of reflects our strategic priorities also. I mean we have hired our Head of Digital Banking because digital is a strategic focus area for us. We have brought in a Head of Liabilities because liabilities is a key focus area for us, okay? For that matter, all the other things that we've done. But more importantly, I think we have also made an attempt to flatten the organization, and we have also empowered teams and empowered the leadership team to work on a cross-functional basis and on multiple other things. So what finally matters is what we deliver and not so much where they come from. I think we have made a very careful and a good collection of people, and the profiles are available in the investor presentation.

We take the next question from the line of Manu Sahni from CX Partners.

Nitin, thank you so much for a very descriptive account of the affairs. It's great that you guys have reached out to 5 million customers. Just wanted to understand that given that you guys have spoken to 5 million customers, would you guys have some sort of assessment of what sort of job disruption happened in that customer base? Of course, we understand that they are dual-income families, et cetera. But putting that aside, how many would have possibly got employment disruptions, maybe short term or long term because that sense would have had from your field agents. Would you be able to share a sense?

We have that. But the more -- the sharper set of questions were asked when we did this survey on a sample of 90,000 customers. Basically, the answers have come largely by occupation, by location, by all kinds of other permutation/combination. So we have a very good idea of how many people have got impacted by what extent. So that is what they're telling us, okay? So we have to take it on face value. So it is a good idea and that is what has gone into revisiting and recalibrating our credit policy also.

Sure. So would you be able to share what sort of disruptions have happened in the number of employment in those 5 million customers?

Like Sneh mentioned, only about 4% customers are saying that they might take 3 to 6 months to recover, okay? They've had, let's say, a loss of job, okay? Not that they don't have savings, but they have a loss of income. But most people have reported a reduction in income, and that is largely the 96%. The reduction in income, to what extent, it varies by occupation, by market size. So it's a very detailed survey.

Next question is from the line of Gaurav Jani from Centrum Broking.

Firstly, have I got this number correct? In terms of value, the moratorium claimed, is it 90% of the overall book?

Yes. 90% is right, you have the numbers.

Sure. And just a question on the morat again. Have you offered it to the FIG group being from smaller NBFCs? So any...

Yes. Ten of our relationships out of the 18 who asked us and -- yes, so we have this view of doing this on a case-to-case basis. And we were able to [ set decision ] that also. But I must tell you that it's not like a uniform kind of a moratorium. Some people ask for a month, some people ask for 2 months, some people ask for only the interest. So it varies. But in total, it's about 10.

Okay. Which should be about 60%, 70% of the total FIG book?

No. No, no, no. Not even 40%.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it. Sir, also some clarity on the provisioning, if I may ask you. So the INR 49 crore or the INR 70 crore, as the case may be, so is it 10% of the required provisioning by the RBI? Or how should I look at it?

Much more than that.

It's much higher. So what RBI has stated is that we will have to take a minimum provisioning of 10% on all the standard overdue cases. And in comparison to that, we've taken 38% as additional provisions on this account. And we've also increased the PCR from 65% to 80% during Q4.

That's helpful. And should I understand that the INR 49 crore would be the [ SMA012 ] to put together?

Yes. [ SMA012 ].

Okay. Okay. Also a question on what percentage of the total book would fall in the green and orange zones as of now?

So...

So I can tell you, red zone is about 40%, whether you take by 40% to 44% depending on the business and by numbers or by portfolio size.

16% is...

16% is green, the balance is amber.

Got it. Got it. That's helpful. Lastly, if I may just squeeze one. Now obviously, the situation is too fluid as of now. But we -- I think, as an exception, we are not constrained for capital probably -- as probably the other NBFCs, MFIs are. That is one. So my question was, what would be your outlook on growth, probably, if not figuratively, at least a qualitative comment? And because I think a lot of our the performance would have dependent -- would be dependent on -- at least on the OpEx front would be dependent on growth, so I'm happy to have your thoughts.

Probably only because it's very hard to provide any kind of guidance in the present circumstances, so we are not providing any guidance right now. What I can tell you that is because we have a large base of customers, a large portion of our business is through repeat loans, especially in microfinance. A large part of repeat loans will happen through the contactless way of doing business. We are optimistic. We are optimistic also because our customers are telling us that their disruption is temporary to their income. And we are seeing people going back to their economic activity as and when the restrictions are getting lifted. So in summary, I can tell you that it will be a gradual buildup, but we don't know to what extent and how much time. We are only hoping that the situation doesn't go any worse than what it is right now. But it's very hard to provide any kind of a range also, forget any accurate estimate.

Sure. At least on the OpEx side, if I may ask you, just if I may squeeze, one is on the employee front. I mean have we sort of performed the study as to what percentage would be variable and what would be fixed? And how much could we control that at least in FY '21?

See most of the variable pay is never a large proportion of the overall compensation to employees. But in the present circumstances, the variable pay will have to be aligned to collections efforts. That much you will agree with me, right?

Sure. Right.

To do that, the variable pay is going to come back. It's not like it's going to go away because you're not doing business or you're doing less business. So there is going to be variable pay. The only thing is that we believe that we will not have the need to bring in more people unless those are very clearly identified specialist goals or replacements where we don't have internal talent. So that's the reason our headcount has more or less remained the same since December, even now till April, for the last 4 months. We do expect that we will not have a great need to bring in more people. And we will be able to bring in more efficiencies through use of technology, which most of it has got tested during this lockdown. We will be implementing this very soon as soon as we are opening up and through some of these other things that our customers have told us in the new ways of contactless lending.

Any plans to add branches in FY '21, please?

Yes. So we had a branch expansion plan, which we had prepared in the month of January and in February. January, February is when we had prepared a branch expansion plan. We had also represented to RBI as all the [ SSPs ] together that the regulation on -- and then the same for new SSPs as well as the old SSPs, which was -- they had made a mention of that in the guidelines for licensing on [ TAP ]. So RBI clarified in the last week of March after the lockdown, saying that we can also open our branches without having to take branch expansion approval from RBI. So we have our plans ready. We have put them on hold for now. We want to revisit them only end of June or maybe mid of Q2 and then decide whether we want to or we are okay with what we have. Because most of our branches are also not so old, the 575 branches that we have. They're all within 3 years. So we still have a lot to do with our existing branches also. So we'll...

Okay. So net-net...

Yes.

Okay. Yes. So the decision would be probably in June end on the branch addition?

Part of the decision has been taken in terms of the location, the ground research, the viability, the business case, law and order, whatever else that we need to do because that prep time is actually quite a lot. It takes us 3 to 4 months to decide on a location and then choose between different locations. So all that has been done, and we are sitting ready with the locations where we would like to open branches. The decision to open the branch or not all these branches, we will try and revisit that decision towards the end of this quarter or latest in middle of next quarter.

We take the next question from the line of [ Arya Sangoi ] from VT Capital.

So I just had one question. It could be slightly modified version of an already asked question. So I wanted to know that -- you all said that all the customers that you have surveyed, they are saying that within 3 months, they will be able to pay and like you are pretty confident of the books. So I just wanted to -- like, can you share some detail on the type of -- or figuratively or qualitatively the type of collections you expect in June? And how much percentage of -- since you have a large proportion of people as self-employed, so how much percentage of the book people like might need top-up loans to come out of this crisis, if any?

So when we spoke to our customers during this whole lockdown period, we did clearly establish that there is going to be a need for top-up loans or any kind of emergency loans after they come back. So that is kept ready to offer this to our customers. Now as far as collections are concerned, we are seeing very healthy repayments even under this present month even though everybody has been offered to moratorium, which gives us a hope that this will only improve in the month of June. But hard to say that to what extent and what proportion. We only know at the moment, based on our conversations with customers, that only 4% have said that they can be likely impacted. They haven't said that they are definitely impacted and they will not be able to pay us. They haven't said that, okay? There is another way that we looked at this. So we have opened accounts to all our customers. As you know, our micro banking customers than we were encouraging them to use these accounts for emergency cash and deposit the emergency cash that they normally keep at home and dip into that whenever they require. So we were hoping that people will actually start withdrawing money from these accounts. We haven't seen that happen to any great extent, which would seem like that people are dipping into their savings also. So that makes us believe that it's a temporary disruption. It's not like people are hand to mouth and they really want to -- they're waiting for either credit or for some going into their savings. So we are hopeful that collections will get restored, but we still have to wait and watch until we are completely back on the field.

Just a follow-up on that question. So do you expect -- like if the situation worsen, do you expect this moratorium thing is affecting the credit culture of people and some kind of restructuring of loans would be required going forward?

See credit culture is not affected by moratorium or any such repayment holiday. We have done that in the times of natural calamity. We haven't seen any adverse change in behavior. This happens when there is a willful default. And willful default is something that you can estimate some partly at the time of underwriting and partly during your regular interactions with customers. So we don't have a reason to believe that the credit culture will get spoiled because you will agree that there is going to be demand for credit. And the demand for credit in micro banking or even in MSE and housing hasn't really come down, okay? I must also add that on the portfolio, especially in housing and MSE, we have LTVs of around 40% blended for this portfolio. So we already have coverage of more than twice in terms of collateral even in these portfolios. So we have an opportunity to even give top-up loans to customers who are creditworthy and good. And our focus is very clearly going to be on our existing customers. We are not going to be going after the new customers at least for the short term, the next 2 quarters perhaps. And because we have an established behavior, we know these customers. They know us well enough. And now we have the ways and means of doing these things on a contactless basis, we don't see that too much of a problem. And because these customers also would like to deal with us, which is what they've been telling us and they've always told us this. We don't see a problem even in terms of a change in the credit behavior or any behavior, which is on the line of any willful default. [ That ] is obviously understandable.

Sir, just lastly, one bookkeeping question. So the INR 50 crore provision that you said on SMA012, is that 30% that you mentioned?

38%. Additional is 38%.

38%. All right, sir. Thank you and all the best for the future.

Thank you.

We take the next question from the line of [ Sasi Rekha ] from Deloitte.

Can you please [Audio Gap] methodology you have adopted for quantifying the provision?

Sorry, can you repeat the question? We lost you in between.

Yes. Can you please throw some light on the ECL methodology which we have adopted in quantifying? How have we quantified the PD and the LGD?

That would be, I think -- we can share that off-line with you. But that, I would imagine, is more internal to us, isn't it? But we can check back and perhaps come back to you on that one.

As a bank, we are supposed to follow the I-GAAP, and all our provisioning is as per the I-GAAP provisions. On the ECL methodology, we are doing it more from the [ point of consolidation ] for our holding company. We'll explain you off-line the entire methodology, what we are following for this year.

We take the next question from the line of M.B. Mahesh from Kotak Securities.

I guess 2 questions from my side. On the fee income line, we see that the PSLC income has always been on the lower side as compared to the -- what a few other small finance banks. Can you just as to what's driving this lower fee income because the portfolio is [Technical Difficulty] as defined under the PSLC portfolio?

Yes. Upma, you want to answer that, please.

Basically, for the PSLC income, this depends on -- as you know, we are supposed to maintain 75% of our ANBC portfolio as a PSLC portfolio. We will cash in [indiscernible] sell-down in lines of PSLC. So we're not in a position to comment about other banks, depending on the provision. So we have to maintain 75% [indiscernible] [ for PSLC and the rest we are selling the PSLC] .

So you moved all the way down to 75% in your portfolio? Or do you exhaust the entire limits available?

So we generally keep a buffer because the 75% need to be maintained throughout the year. We maintain the buffer, and then we will decide on selling down on the PSLC portfolio.

And normally, we will do that in the first quarter of the year. But right now the leads are not so attractive. So we've taken a call to revisit that.

Perfect. And one last question. This drop in corporate deposits that you reported from 14% to 9% and 17% from a quarter earlier, how should one read into it?

So these are the normal year like what we have already highlighted. We have the capital -- we have done the capital [raise ] in the month of December, and we were having the sufficient liquidity. So the corporate deposits is they are actually getting mature. It's a -- I mean, it's a normal maturity process, which has happened.

We take the next question from the line of Rishabh Shah from R S Capitals.

I just wanted to clarify. You mentioned that we have done a survey of 90,000 customers. So as on the date of survey, if you could specify how much of these customers as a percentage were in the red zone.

Red zone customers, Sneh, how many of these were there in the red zone?

Close to 50% were in the red zone.

50%. Okay. And just a strategy question, just want to understand since you'll be catering -- focusing more on the existing customers. So what would be your strategy in the -- like how is your balance, say, customers -- maintaining the customer trust versus getting your money back?

So that balance, I think we always maintain. It's not anything exceptional this time. Now you would agree that as and when things open up and the moratorium goes away, there is going to be a focus on repayment and on extending credit to good customers. And over time, these things will get evened out and balanced out. But we will have to reprioritize repayments and collections in the next 2 or 3 months as the moratorium goes away. And then customers would be ready to repay us at that point in time. But this business, even today, we are doing. It's not like we're not doing any disbursals right now. So when we're going in the field and there are customers who are eligible and we're willing to give them an additional loan, we are doing that even today. So it's not like we said that no loans till you give us your money back -- our money back. So the retention of customers on the existing portfolio gives us a lot of confidence that we know who we are dealing with, and these customers are well known to us all the customers. [indiscernible]

We take the next question from the line of Sonia Lalwani from Purnartha Investments. As there's no response from the current participant...

Hello? Yes, actually, I just wanted to ask -- I have 3 questions. First, if you can just throw some light on the miscellaneous income that has been reported on Slide 37? Why that has increased? Just wanted to know that.

Slide 37, miscellaneous income. That's one of my [indiscernible] .

So the miscellaneous income is -- basically comprises of you get your income from your banking operations. So you have your cards and you get your AMC income. You have your NFS income. So this is basic -- depending on asset quality [indiscernible] has been an increase in the digital transactions. So it's more of -- with the increase in transaction that gets reflected in the increase in the miscellaneous income.

And quarter-on-quarter, it's a INR 2 crore jump. I mean year-on-year is a large one. But on a Q-on-Q basis, it's...

It's INR 2 crores.

It's just what it would be.

Okay. Okay. And is it possible to just give -- to just divide the OpEx into fixed and variable? How much of that would be fixed? How much that would be variable? Is it -- I mean, is it possible?

Not possible on the investor presentation, but we could probably let you know separately.

Okay. Sir, one more question. PAR number is down, I mean, from INR 281 crores to INR 276 crores. Plus there are write-offs of INR 19.2 crores. So is it possible to throw some light over here? I mean, what are the additional slippages?

So see, during the quarter, the additions on the NPA side has been INR 37 crores, and reduction has been INR 11 crore, and write-off is INR 19 crores. So that's why the NPA number is at INR 137 crores. As far as the PAR number is concerned, it is both on account of better recoveries in the first 75 days. It could have been even better if we had time till March 31, also because we provided moratorium to all our [ SMA ] customers in March.

Okay. Okay. All right. If I just want to squeeze one more question. So could you just throw some light if the COVID wouldn't have been there, so what would have been the disbursements, what would have been the growth in this?

Sorry, I didn't understand that.

So if the COVID -- if the lockdown wouldn't have been there, so what would have been the impact on our disbursements, the positive side impact? How much would have that grown?

That is a hypothetical scenario now. But we had prepared our plans for the year, and we did create some scenarios. No doubt about that. I don't know whether we want to share that right now because the things have changed so rapidly that it's hard to even revisit those -- some of those things. So we will -- I think what I'm trying to draw everyone's attention to is the fact that we have prepared ourselves to be able to take action now and in future and run our business and grow our business or whichever way in a differentiated manner. How things will unfold? I think we will have to keep revisiting and updating all of you.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference back to Mr. Abhishek Murarka from IIFL Securities for his closing comments. Over to you, sir.

Yes. Thanks, Janice. A big thank you to the management to allow us -- for allowing us to host the call. And thanks for the detailed presentation. Thanks to all the participants for attending. Thanks and have a good evening. Thank you, Nitin.

Thank you very much. On behalf of IIFL Securities Limited, we conclude today's conference. Thank you all for joining. You may now disconnect your lines.