United Bank Limited (UBL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to the United Bank 2019 Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your first speaker for today, Mr. [ Farhan ] [indiscernible]. Thank you. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, operator. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome the United Bank Limited 2019 Results Conference Call. We are once again pleased to have with us the senior management of UBL, which includes Mr. Aameer Karachiwalla, the Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Arif Saifie, the Head of Investor Relations and Financial Reporting. As with previous quarters, Arif will run through the key highlights in the presentation...

Okay. Thank you very much, [ Farhan ]. Very warm welcome to all the participants on the call. We also have our Chief Risk Officer, Mr. Imran Sarwar, who is also joining us for the call today. We now start first with the overall highlights of the bank's performance for this year. The overall profit before tax is up 37% and stood at PKR 34.2 billion on a stand-alone basis versus last year. In terms of the major upsides that have built the earnings in 2019, as in the previous years, we've maintained our buildup in average Domestic current deposits, which stood at PKR 475 billion and were up 8% year-on-year in terms of averages. The average CASA for the year remained strong at 86.2%, which is just marginally lower than the 87% we had last year. In terms of cost of deposits, this remained contained at 5.5% for the Domestic bank, which is above the 3.1% we had last year, of course, because of the increase in interest rates, approximately 500 basis points. In terms of the International portfolio, there has been a 31% reduction in the loan book this year in terms of averages. And that is part of our overall derisking strategy on the International business. We continue to remain the market leader in home remittances in Pakistan with the revenues up by 21% this year while we enjoyed a market share of over 28% in 2019. Bancassurance volumes, premiums grew by 11% as fee income was recorded at PKR 1.6 billion as we remained one of the top players in this space in Pakistan as well. The fixed income in a year of volatility rose by 31% and stood at PKR 4.5 billion in 2019. The overall NII of the bank was up 10%, Domestic bank, in fact, was up 11% this year, closing at almost just under PKR 62 billion for the year while the repricing continues across both the investment portfolio and the loan portfolio, which will obviously have an impact in coming quarters in 2020. Expense growth remained contained at just over 2%, 2019 versus 2018. On a reported basis, that is 4% because of specific deposit protection scheme impact for the full year. Provision stood 36% lower this year at PKR 8.2 billion. The CAR of the bank remained strong at almost 19% at December '19 on a stand-alone basis, which is 120 basis points improvement over the 17.7% that we had last year. Going to the balance sheet. The overall balance sheet remained at approximately PKR 1.9 trillion in 2019. This is closer to the level that we had last year. But there was change in the funding mix and the profile of assets. Interest income, like I mentioned, was PKR 61.8 billion, up 10%. The overall Domestic portfolio of deposits, the book, grew by 10% year-on-year, which is approximately PKR 97 billion of incremental deposit volume, which is one of the highest in the Pakistani banking sector in terms of averages. We opened over 500,000 new bank accounts in the current account space. And that momentum continues to be maintained across the network, although this year was also -- there was a lot more focus on compliance. Overall, PKR 35 billion growth in current accounts. And the current to total ratio remained close to 43% this year, around about the same level as it was last year, and which is why the cost of deposit of the bank has remained well controlled. We maintained a prudent start on our consumer portfolio, which was up by 23% to PKR 17 billion, but essentially with growth only within the auto segment. Our fixed income PIBs reduced by PKR 87 billion this year, in line with maturities during the course of the year and stood at PKR 315 billion at December '19. And the floating rate PIB portfolio, which was built during the course of the year, is just under PKR 100 billion as at December 31, 2019, with a yield of approximately 14.5% on the current portfolio. The overall repo portfolio was reduced over the course of the year as we built up a strong deposit base. Repos are reduced from PKR 131 billion in '18 to PKR 67 billion by December end. So that was the balance sheet. Moving on to the NFI. Overall NFI stood at PKR 21.7 billion versus PKR 25 billion last year. Fee income stood at PKR 13.7 billion, maintaining the level that we had in 2018. The Domestic fees stood at PKR 11.4 billion, down 5% versus last year. Our branch banking customer fees was up 4% to reach PKR 1.6 billion. Debit and credit card fees stood at PKR 1.5 billion this year, down by 1%. Remittances income was up 9% year-on-year to reach PKR 2.7 billion and forming a major component of the bank's commission base. Consumer fees maintained healthy growth of about 10% and stood at PKR 914 million in 2018 (sic) [ 2019 ] while banca revenues reached -- were up 1% to reach PKR 1.6 billion and cash management commissions grew by 4% over 2018 to reach over PKR 722 million this year. Moving towards dividend income. We have a dividend income stream of PKR 1.5 billion at a yield of close to 6% on the [indiscernible] that were built in earlier years. Last year, we had a capital raise of PKR 4.6 billion on PIBs, which was close to about PKR 600 million this year, hence the overall delta in the capital gains line for the bank. FX income remained strong and was up 31% to PKR 4.5 billion. In terms of the overall provisions for the bank in 2019, there was a net provision charge of PKR 2.2 billion on stocks and in equities and on loans within the Domestic bank, primarily because of approximately PKR 3 billion on the equity. The DOM, or the Domestic bank's, asset quality stood just marginally above 5%. And this is the level that it was last year as well. Hence, asset quality has been maintained with very little formation in 2019 despite the higher interest rates. Within the International book, we continue to build our coverage. So we have taken close to $40 million of provisioning this year, which is significantly lower than the $95 million that we had taken in 2018. The overall NPLs for the bank stood at PKR 76.6 billion at December '19, up from the PKR 68.6 billion level that we had in December '18. But this includes close to PKR 5 billion impact because of the overall translation and the devaluation of the rupee by approximately 12% year-on-year between December '19 and December '18. The International NPLs now stand at $319 million. The coverage for the International book with FSV stood at 91% while the overall asset quality for the bank was 10.9% versus 8.8% last year. At the bank level, specific coverage was maintained at 82.5% in December '19 versus 81.5% in December '18. In terms of the expenses, overall reported administrative expenses were PKR 40.2 billion, up 4% on a year-on-year basis. In terms of the composition of the expenses, in line with the bank's plans to maintain a leaner structure, staff costs are down by 5% in 2019 versus 2018 and were recorded at PKR 14.6 billion. Domestic staff expenses stood at PKR 11.8 billion and were down 2% year-on-year. In terms of the property and/or premises expenses, these are down by 1% in FY '19 to reach PKR 7.2 billion. And for the Domestic bank, they were marginally up by only 1% despite the overall higher inflationary environment that we have had during 2019. The major investment of the bank remains in IT technology and the digital side. Hence, the IT expenses of the bank were up by 29% and were reported at PKR 3.6 billion. In terms of the other OpEx line for the bank, these are up by 11% to reach PKR 14.8 billion. But overall, the expense base was up by 4%. This is a summary of the bank for 2019. Our reported growth in EPS is 37% this year. And we'd like to hand the proceedings back to you, [ Farhan ], so that we can start the Q&A.

Thank you, Arif. Operator, can you guide our participants for the Q&A?

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Sohail Tai of Amin Tai (Private) Limited.

Sir, if you look at the balance sheet, specifically Note 10, if we see the total of specific and general provisions, quarter-on-quarter, there's a decline of about PKR 1 billion. But on the P&L, you've taken a net charge against loans and advances of about PKR 2 billion in the fourth quarter. So I'm just trying to reconcile these 2 figures.

All right. So in terms of the overall provisioning charge movement, are you looking for the quarter-on-quarter movement of the charge?

Yes. Fourth quarter versus third quarter.

Okay. In the last quarter, there has been a slight reclassification that we have done essentially for certain impairment losses, which has been made in the current quarter, which is why you probably are seeing that year-on-year swing. I mean some of the impairment losses are earlier on reported as part of provisioning, which have now been reported under capital loss, which is why you are seeing that delta.

Okay. Sir, in the International book, we've seen an increase of about PKR 500 million in NPLs quarter-over-quarter. And the main increase seems to be in this category, not past due but impaired. So did you take a lot of subjective provisions in the fourth quarter? And any guidance you can give for next year?

This is actually -- this is basically on the restructuring on impaired not past due on International books.

This is Imran. We have -- the slight background is that we are trying to improve our coverage in the International impaired portfolio. So some of these have been taken subjectively. But most of this provision is on the back of deteriorating conditions that we have in the Middle Eastern countries.

And any guidance for next year?

Well, the quantum we are hoping will not be as big. But we will continue to derisk. And wherever required, we will be taking more provisions.

Okay. Sir, in your past calls, you had said that about 50% of your loan book is repriced semiannually. Does that mean that half of your loan book is going to be repriced -- was repriced in 1st Jan 2020 to account for the July hike?

Well, essentially, you see we have a big portfolio of project finance. But typically, loan repricing is in 6 months. Our loan portfolio should be fully repriced by April essentially. And that includes a certain component, which obviously will have the July hike as well. But within the first quarter, the entire portfolio should be repriced.

Okay. And sir, finally, regarding the fee income growth -- sorry, were you saying something?

No, please go ahead.

The fee income growth has been down about 2% year-on-year. In your last call, you expected double-digit growth next year. Do you still stand by this statement?

Well, I think there are 2 things that are to note over here. First, we've taken close to about PKR 225 million of IFRS 15 implementation impact in our non-guaranteed fees. That was, of course, under discussion and we decided to do that adoption this year. So that is one drag that sits in there. Other than that, the decline in the fourth quarter or the last quarter also includes one more tranche of BISP, which obviously we did not get in the fourth quarter because of certain change in the overall contract over there, which is why the fee income is a little bit lower. Other than that, of course, like we had mentioned, there is the investment banking fees as well, which was envisaged to be a little bit higher and which has obviously come out a little bit low this -- by the close of this year obviously by design. But that includes certain elements, which are expected in the first quarter of 2020. So you will see probably an improvement in investment banking side in terms of fees in the first quarter.

Our next question comes from the line of Raza Inam of HBL Asset Management.

Sir, I was looking at your consolidated fee income. So there was a big decrease in commission on trade income. So is it by design due to increased KYC requirement or had to be a lost market share in this area?

Well, yes, thank you for asking that question. I think, see, on the consolidated fee income, this includes the overall subsidiaries as well. Our market share in terms of Domestic bank, we have a close to 8% to 9% of the trade volumes, import-export within Pakistan. I don't think there is any specific decline essentially because of specific compliance reasons. That business model remains intact. We have, however, derisked a larger component of our International business, where loans have actually decreased by 35% as a conscious effort to conserve capital. And obviously, when that loan portfolio decrease or balance sheet compression was planned, it has had an impact on the trade income of the bank as well. Other than that, of course, like I mentioned earlier, the biggest component of the decline is because of a fee income deferral of about PKR 225 million, which, of course, is a deferral of fee income under IFRS 15, which will come back to us and be recognized in subsequent years.

Okay. Sir, my next question that current account has been on a declining trend this year for UBL and also for the overall banking industry. So is the increase in interest rates making it difficult to attract to current account? And will we see a similar trend this year?

So I think if you look at -- Zia Ijaz here, if you look at the quarter-end numbers and even the average numbers, so there is increase in the current deposit. Having said that, the pace of growth has slowed down for the industry as compared to the previous years. And primarily because of the breakdown on the non-taxpayers and then the -- because of [indiscernible]. And so a lot of the business community, which was early -- I mean the deposits into the banks. And we see large withdrawal in [ release ] pockets. And that's evident from the currency in circulation. Look at the increase in currency in circulation. So some of the deposits, and primarily in current deposits, has gone out of the industry.

Okay. Sir, my final question is that what is your view on the interest rate going forward. How much interest rate cut are you expecting in this calendar year?

Let me take that interest rate. This is Aameer. Basically, our view on interest rates is that -- until about a month back, interest rate view was that it will be on a declining trend and maybe about 100 basis point cut between now and end of the year and maybe about 50 to 100 basis points cut in May-June. But in the last months, inflation coming up to 14.6% CPI, yes, we have to watch out and see exactly how the trend goes. But generally, the view of our treasury is that the base effect will kick in and the inflation will start ticking down. So we may see maybe a slight decrease in interest rates because that's what the government wants. But it's a bit early to say. We have to see a couple of months inflation trend before we have a view on exactly where it is going. But it doesn't look like the upside probability of interest rate hike is low and decrease in the next 1 year is probably very high.

[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of [ Wahab ] of Topline Securities.

So my question, [ I have a few that have been answered ], but my question pertains to the ForEx income. We have seen a trend for most peer banks and other banks as well, there's been substantial increase in ForEx income. I think UBL gained about 31%. So is this just the devaluation impact this year? Or is it expected to be in the -- or continue this trend going forward? And what exactly does this constitute?

Well, essentially, it includes -- so for UBL, of course, it includes the benefit of our overall home remittances portfolio as well because we bring in about 28% of the market in terms of home remittance volumes. And yes, during the first 6 to 7 months of the year, there was a much wider spread on the interest rate movement in the dollar as well, which is obviously an element of volatility, where there is always a lot more FX earning opportunities, and of course, on the trading side as well. And remember, most banks in Pakistan, I mean this is just a structural thing, which is important to understand, are always running a net long position in the forward book. And an increase in interest rates during the first half of 2019 obviously had that positive impact on earnings. But having said that, let me clarify that obviously going forward, the function of FX income will always be driven by the level of import trade that is there. And also, it will be driven by the expectation of further devaluation, which is where the spreads widened and which is where the imports need to be hedged by corporate customers, where there are earning opportunities. So there is a certain churn of import volume, like I said, which UBL does. That income will be intact. But obviously the big growth that we've seen this year would not be expected until there is further volatility.

[Operator Instructions] Our next question is from the line of Ameet Doulat of Universal Investment (sic) [ Universal Brushware Investments ].

My first question is regarding the PIB book. You've mentioned in your report as well the current floating yield is around 14.6%. But as of December -- because there was the maturity at the end of December, if I'm not wrong. So as of December or as of 1st Jan, what is the yield on the PIB -- fixed PIB book?

Okay. So the fixed PIB portfolio has a yield of approximately 8.5%. And that portfolio is what we will continue to run off during next year. And there is -- there are further maturities of approximately PKR 70 billion in 2020, which will run off and -- from both the AFS and the held-to-maturity components.

And another PKR 100 billion next year.

Right. And another PKR 100 billion in 2021. So approximately PKR 75 billion in 2020 and another PKR 100 billion in 2021. So that will have a positive impact on NIMs because obviously this will get reinvested from 8.5% to anything between 13% and 13.5% as a base case in the 3- to 6-month T-bill, which will have an earnings impact next year.

Right. Secondly, given the view on interest rates and the -- there are diverging opinions about when the interest rate is going to come down. But everyone is clear about interest rates going down from these levels of the discount rate being 13.75%. So last time, UBL played an innings where the fixed PIB book was a greater percentage of the total investment book. So going forward, what is going to be the strategy regarding the PIB book volume? Because right now, as you said, that you're going to let the PIB -- fixed PIB book run down with these 2 maturities. But can we expect these amounts to be reinvested in shorter-tenor securities or longer-tenor PIBs?

Yes, let me take that. Basically, our view going forward is that the -- because of the volatility that's happened in our interest rate yield curve, I do not believe that we'll be going into long-term PIBs anymore. Our strategy going forward now is that maybe about 3 to 5 years at the best. If you see the rate reversal taking place and if you get a good opportunity to build up on the PIB, it will be on the shorter end of the curve rather than on the longer side -- longer end.

Perfect. All right. Okay. My second question is regarding the cost. So like you mentioned in the presentation also that the cost -- there's a conscious management on the cost, let's say, and your compensation is also down 5% year-on-year. And this has been the case for UBL since last 3, 4 years, where the cost has been below double digit. So given all the inflationary pressures with devaluation also coming in with your foreign branches impact. Going forward, is a single-digit cost growth an aim for UBL? Or does the management feel that the cost rationalization is largely done and going forward, UBL will spend more to gain market share with new initiatives and schemes?

Well, I think [ there is a reason to ] that. So we will continue to invest in the areas of technology and IT. And that's where the cost growth are there if you see that. But at the same time, we also believe in rationalization, cost rationalization, in headcount, in our premises. One of the benefits we got this year in the expense side was on the IFRS 16 implementation as well. So there was a rent reversal [ that's due to the IFRS 16 ] and the corresponding increase in the financing charge because of right-of-use assets. So that's one part that we should recognize. But overall, the whole -- despite the International component and devaluation in the rupee, it doesn't look like for the one, this current year, substantial. We believe that we will stay within the single-digit expense growth. Of that, the fixed cost part, which is the premises and personnel, we'll continue to optimize every time. But we will be investing and growing in the technology and digital front.

Perfect. Lastly, on the deposit and on the lending, just to get a sense of the strategy on both these ends. Of course, like Zia has mentioned that this year has been sounded with all the problems on the documentation front, but going forward -- and that has been the case in the industry as well on the documentation side. But going forward, can we expect the growth to be in the CASA deposits and specifically CAR deposits to be double digit? And following that, regarding the advances of the lending strategy, you mentioned that you will be focusing on shorter-term investment securities. But between the investments and the advances mix, should we expect the ADR to remain at the levels they are right now? Or given the whole scenario of interest rates and economic slowdown, the ADR can go down further?

Well, I think to first answer your question on the deposits, so we've done 10% average growth on deposits of PKR 97 billion. I mean our target was, of course, a little bit higher than that, which means that the network can grow north of 10% in terms of the total deposit base of the bank. And thus, the focus around -- with current accounts will also be on savings because there is a 2% margin on savings accounts as well. And we believe that there is a little bit of a catch-up that we can have on these savings accounts as well. So going forward, I think the base case for deposit growth will be 10%. It can, of course, be higher than that as we have seen in the previous years for the bank. As far as the lending outlook is concerned, I'd like Imran to just talk about that.

Yes. The lending outlook is going to mirror how it was in 2019 pretty much. On the Domestic side, it's pretty much BAU. On the International side, we are -- we might derisk a little bit more. And our strategy is not to expose too much on the corporate side. But we will look at FI and sovereign, where we will grow our portfolio. On the corporate side, we are very selective and we will only look at lending to better risk companies.

[Operator Instructions] We have our next question from the line of Ansari of EFG.

Just a couple of questions on -- firstly, on the International business. So there's obviously quite a bit of derisking that has been done. But on the NPL side, I mean I just want to get a sense a little bit. In the last few quarters, there has been [indiscernible]...

Yes. Can you just speak a little bit louder? Actually, I think the voice is a bit muffled. We didn't hear the questions. So if you could just start the question again a bit louder. Thank you.

Sure. Is this better?

Yes, this is better.

Yes. Sir, my question on the International book was on the NPLs. I mean there were -- you have talked about prospect for recoveries from the existing NPL book. And in this year also, there was one, I think you mentioned about category as well, where some exposures were classified as an NPL. So just wanted to get a sense, have you seen any progress on the category this year coming from the International book? The second question is on the loan book. So yes, on a year-on-year basis, the growth -- book has actually contracted. But there was one large exposure, I think, which you shared in the first quarter. So if you take that out, overall corporate growth in the Domestic book over the last 3 quarters has been pretty decent. So just wanted to get a sense of which segments are driving that growth on the corporate book.

So on the International provision side, yes, we did have some success in terms of recovery but primarily in those cases where we had the collections, right? So if you look at net of recovery numbers, so there is a charge because of migration of certain accounts from the low-risk category into the high-risk category. And as Imran has here conveyed, so the business climate still remains sluggish. And so we don't expect any big surprises. But I think depending on how the economy performs, we won't have any substantial numbers. But still, I think, on the International side, we can still see a net charge for next year as well.

Right. So the second part of your question about the Domestic corporate book increasing, as a matter of fact, the increase that you see, it should have been higher. There were a few transactions, which are approved, but they could not be disbursed before the year-end. Most of our exposure has come from either FI or government of Pakistan or utility sector. There has been very little growth from the private side.

And on the Domestic corporate book itself, I mean where do you see -- how do you see this 2020 in terms of growth, I mean mid-single-digit kind of growth for the Domestic book?

It will be mid-single digits because what we've seen is the impact of the increased interest rates, et cetera, is now coming full-blown in the corporate results. We also see that the corporates are wary of increasing their borrowing because the price and cost of borrowing has gone up significantly. And we do not see a whole lot of pipeline building up from people asking to borrow more money. So in line with all of that, we have kept a mid-single-digit-type growth for our corporate bank.

All right. And lastly, I mean the third quarter, there were some classifications in the Domestic book on the NPL side, in OAEM and substandard because I think there was downgrade to what happened. And there were talks of some of the restructuring happening. Are they done? Is there more to come in terms of these NPLs going down in the Domestic book in this year?

Yes. The [indiscernible] Domestic book is...

[indiscernible] the restructuring impact is actually reflected in the existing numbers.

Yes. So the Domestic book, as it stands, is pretty resilient. We had one big one, which was pretty industry-wide phenomenon go into the watchlist category. But on the NPL category, this was predominantly coming from the SME book, where the first shock of the interest rate and the deval has caught the weaker ones off guard. And after that, we've not seen -- since Q3 last year, we've not seen any major deteriorations on the book. However, we do expect that with the continuing stress in the economy, there could be a bit more. We are actively trying to manage and monitor that part of our portfolio.

And just to add, I mean, just in terms of our plan, I mean, there is a SAM division in UBL, which obviously has a target of close to PKR 1.5 billion -- PKR 0.5 billion of recoveries every year. And I think in next year as well, they will be looking at a target of approximately that much as well.

Every year. They have been performing every year in that kind of way, yes.

No question as of this time. [Operator Instructions]

I guess while we wait for further questions, I'll just jump in. And I wanted to sort of touch a little bit more on the International business. Obviously, we discussed a lot. But in terms of the deleveraging and what we have seen, how far are we into that process? And how much more deleveraging do you expect to take place in the next 1 to 2 years?

Well, I wouldn't call it deleveraging, I would really call it derisking where we can. And you do understand how the portfolio is working. If we push too hard, the good loans get repaid, the bad ones get left behind. So we are trying to manage that very carefully. This is mostly what you see is from our UAE book, where we have a very sizable operation. And that effort to derisk will continue in the UAE and Qatar this year. At this point, it's very difficult to predict what the quantum will be because those economies still continue to struggle. So it all depends, and as I say, it's a developing story. But most of our UAE book, where there was trouble has already been recognized and so is Qatar. There will be some more derisking, but difficult to say at this stage what the quantum will be.

No questions as of this time, sir. Please continue.

Yes. [ Farhan ], we can maybe wait for a few more seconds. I mean up to you, I mean...

[indiscernible] questions.

[ Farhan ], so if there are no further questions, we can, of course, end the call here.

Yes. Just, operator, can we check again, any further questions?

Yes. We have one from Ansari of EFG.

One more question, just from the capital side. So there has been a lot of progress that's been made over the years and this -- at this stage, you feel -- you look very comfortable on capital ratios. And this year is obviously going to be a -- should be fairly decent in terms of profitability. So just from a capital perspective, I mean you're at 17%, the D-SIB, 17% -- or 17%. D-SIB requirements are coming off from March 2020 for you by about 50 basis points. What's a comfortable level that you see that you would like to maintain in terms of capital? And where do you see this getting [indiscernible]? Obviously, the profitability levels rising -- should rise this year. There will be a lot of internal capital generation as well. But I mean indirectly, [indiscernible] I mean how does [indiscernible]? If you can give a sense [indiscernible].

So basically, on the capital side, I believe those strategies from last 1.5 years was because the rupee was devalued, we wanted to ensure that we actually maintain adequate capital because of our International book. And that was part of the whole strategy to derisk International so that it could have a reduced RWA impact on our overall CAR calculation. So we were successful in derisking both from a business perspective, also protection of our capital as well. So that's worked out well. We currently have about 4.8% to 4.5%-plus over our minimum requirement. Generally, we would like to maintain between about 3% to 4% buffer between our capital requirements and our capital. So we may be about 100 basis points over our ideal requirement. But that's maybe just to be on the safer end. So going forward, this would probably give us the capacity to actually take on more risk assets and to manage our International book a little better. So overall, I think we are pretty much in the space that we wanted to be. And I think that will give us multiple opportunities, even for dividend distribution. It actually also helps us on that, too.

No questions at this time. Please continue.

Okay. I think in the interest of time and the fact that we don't have any further questions, we can conclude today's call. Arif, Aameer, do you want to make any final comments?

No, it's fine. I think it was a good year, given a very challenging interest rate environment that we worked in. The biometric verification had to be done throughout the branch. It's a key period where all the deposit mobilization was happening. The [indiscernible] network was actually on compliance in biometric verification. So given all the challenges we had this year in International, we're quite satisfied with the performance of the bank. And we would like to thank all the participants here for joining in the conference call.

Okay. Thank you, [ Farhan ], and thank you, [indiscernible], and all the other participants as well. All right.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that does conclude our conference for today, and thank you for participating. You may now all disconnect.