UWM Holdings Corporation ($UWMC)

All right. Thanks, everyone, for joining today. Appreciate you guys. Obviously, a little different format this quarter. Hopefully, you guys like it. We'd love to get feedback on it. This probably fits my style more. And hopefully, for you guys, I love the to be able to see you guys, too, I don't think we set it up that way this time maybe next time. But I appreciate everyone being here today. I got a bunch of questions. So I'm going to go through a go through. I know last quarter, we didn't do Q&A, and I know people missed that. So I'm happy. And hopefully, this is valuable to you guys in any way possible about the industry about UWM and I got a whole variety of types of questions. I'm going to try not to duplicate and try to put some of them together, but I'll go through an maybe read off a person's name, read the question and go through it. If anyone has any follow-up questions, I know I can't take them live this way, but obviously, our Investor Relations team, Blake and everybody else we'll be able to handle your questions and help you with anything you need.

So let's get started, and we'll jump into it right now. First question, I got Doug Harter from BTIG. What is the status of bringing servicing in-house? What is the latest time line transitioning all servicing to our own platform. So first, status of bringing servicing in-house. Is the video on? It's working?

The video is on, we can hear you, they can hear.

Okay. Sorry if you can't see, I look good today. Hopefully, everyone see the video IT people will fix this. So anyways, I'll answer question without the video for this first one. But anyways, status of bringing servicing in-house. It's going fantastic. So we feel really great about where servicing is right now and how it's going. We have less than 100,000 loans on, but all new originations are going on and then we've moved a bunch of loans over from Stenlar already. So we feel really good about that. The process will be this year over the whole year, we'll bring all of our loans in-house from. So there will be no subservicers by the end of this year and UWM will handle it out. Now it's going really great. Our technology process is going great. We partnered with Black Knight and then we partnered with Bilt and we've also built a bunch of stuff ourselves. So we feel really good about where that's all going and how it's been going and our client service has been excellent. All the metrics that people look at are fantastic. So we feel really good about that across the board. So servicing in house is great. The transition to the time line, that's this year. Hopefully, that answers your question, Doug. I know there's some other servicing questions. I'm sure I'll get to them as we go through it. All right. The next one. Ryan Nash, Goldman Sachs. What are your thoughts on future gain on sale margins? What does competitive landscape look like in a heightened rate environment. So obviously, rates went up in March and they've gone up even more in April, and now you guys can see me, say I told you I had a good blue suit on today. But margins went up -- excuse me, rates went up in March from February, I think the 10-year finished at 3.95%. And so seeing rates go up, how does that impact competitive landscape and gain on sale margin. So what you'll see is we're in a really great position from a perspective of margin and competitive position. I feel like the competitive landscape is very competitive right now. And heightened rate environment means obviously, purchases more than refi. However, we looked at our first quarter, we did a heck of a job on the refinance side. And so I guess my answer to you on this, Ryan, will be that gain on sale margin, I kind of see this range that they're in right now being the right range. And I think that it's going to continue to be in these levels right now and not significantly higher not significantly lower. And I actually think there's upside in the margins based on -- our margins were pretty strong in the first quarter. I expect it to be in those ranges again in the second quarter, but also if rates come down, you could see margins increase. And so the competitive landscape, it is very competitive out there right now. We obviously had a great first quarter. You guys saw the numbers and see what we did. And first quarter is usually the slowest quarter. Now obviously, rates going up. It changes -- the war going on. There's a lot of uncertainty, which creates issues, obviously, in the rate environment, but we feel really good about where it's at right now. National have thoughts on the mix winning at all. So obviously, you must be a New York expand. They have a very, very good team. We obviously just lost to [indiscernible] who's an amazing team, too. So the East is open. The next have a real good chance I'm not really cheering for anybody. I'm just watching and learning, but good luck to your Nicks. Let's go to next question. Mark DeVries from Deutsche Bank. What's the strategic value you see in two harbors? And what updates can you share with us regarding its progress or impact. And so yes, the two harbors things out there right now. It's interesting. When we originally went to acquire the company, they have something that's really great. They have a pristine servicing book, a great servicing book. When we bought the company or originally agreed on the deal before all the work was done, we thought there'd be a lot of synergies also. They had capital markets expertise, maybe some finance expertise. Their servicing platform, maybe you can learn from. As we went through the due diligence process, we learned that there was a really great servicing book. And we still like that servicing book. We originally put an offer out there. And so that stands now is like we don't see as much value in their management team. I think their team members there, we met some of the -- their people are very good but their leadership team, we were not as impressed with. And so what's happened since then is they went out and try the other bid and they did, whether it was appropriate or not, we can discuss that at a later point. But what's happened is if they were to just engage with us, we always plan on paying $12. And quite honestly, based on what the stock price went down, I'd rather pay in cash than in stock, because I feel like I'm giving my stock away at a really low price. And so they never engaged. They just went out of the offer. We made another offer, they just basically ignored it. Now we made another one and said, okay, we'll go to $12 what we originally plan on paying, which I think is maybe $11.95, but you can do the math based on when the stock was at $5.11 or $5.15 the day we cut the deal, I think. And so we still feel really good about that deal. I feel like they're -- it's very clear that their management team and their board is -- which is that's own issues in the past with their lawsuits and stuff. As maybe playing some games doing things because they realize that we don't see any value for them specifically. And so it's interesting, they have really great shareholders, which we are excited about brand UWM, but their Board and their management team doesn't have any value to us. So now they're trying to do anything they can to potentially go with someone else, so they have jobs and sustainability. And so I think it will play out. We'll see how it shakes out for us. That's the strategic value is their MSR book. Their shareholders have some value because we think that we've got a chance to know a little of them during that process and feel like they've got some really good shareholders, and we'd love them to be UWM shareholders. Whether they take cash or stock, it does not matter to me. we feel really good about that. And for the shareholders at two Harbors, they obviously would prefer taking $12 in cash or UWM share than taking $11.30 in cash. So that's obviously going to play out that way. It's really surprising to see how it is. But we'll see how it goes, and I feel good about that, and we feel good about the strategic value. But it's very clear to us that it's the MSR book, its the shareholders and there's not -- we're not -- we don't have any value for their leadership team, which is obviously not what they like to hear. All right. Mikhail Goberman, sorry, if I don't pronounce your name perfectly -- from Citizens Bank. How do you foresee the balance between origination income and service income evolving, especially given the postwar reversal of rates seen since end of February. So listen, we're in origination because we're the biggest and best originator in the country. We feel great about where we are in origination. You saw an amazing first quarter. We've been the #1 originator for 4 straight years. And we continue to be the #1 number on wholesale. So origination is our game. Now as I bring in servicing in-house, we're going to have more servicing, and we're going to continue to retain the service. Now are we still opportunistic. If someone gives me a bid that we believe is more than what the intrinsic value is? I'll sell the servicing. Like I have those options. And now with the lower cost of servicing by bringing in-house and the better level of service, which will help retention, we feel like we got the best of all of it. So how do I see it all balancing? Like we'll see with the income levels, origination versus servicing. But our regions still our game. We're going to continue to build out the servicing book, but I'm always opportunistic and people call us all the time because even I just talked about 2 hours, some of the servicing book that they had, I called it a pristine service book but a lot of that happens to be our old servicing book that we sold them. And so we feel good about the paper we originate every day and servicing the loans. But if someone wants to come off for us a great opportunistic price, we will always look at that. Thank you for the question. Jason Stewart. It's Jason Stewart for Compass Point. Let me read through -- there's an increased number of high -- was there an increased number of high-producing brokers affiliated with UWM during the quarter, supporting wholesale channel growth. And so good question, Jason. High-producing broker shops affiliate with UWM. I always say the numbers, and it's roughly this, but there's 12,000, 12,500 brokers work at UWM or and maybe there's 400, 500 that are not all in with UWM. So there's not that many high-producing shops to bring over to UWM. They're affiliated with UWM. Almost everyone in the market works in UWM that's why we have almost 50% market share. I think it's 44.7% or 44.8% market share for the year last year of the broker channel. So our big focus is grow the channel. Help brokers do more, help more originators realize that brokers is the place to go, whether they join a broker shop or start their own and that's been a really big focus as the broker channel grows, UWM will grow, even if our market share would happen to go down. And so I feel great about growing the broker channel. And then our brokers coming over to join UWM. Yes, they are. Every single day, people see the value of what UWM does. And I guess some actually examples that maybe will come up that I can share because I've been talking about some things recently with some new ideas that have been happened. Now separately in that, the whole all-in thing with brokers -- from years ago, one of the biggest adversaries of UWM was in -- Mike was at Rocket, who was seeing a bunch of things negative about UWM and about what we do and how UWM was invest for brokers recently, that man left his company at Rocket and started a broker shop and called me. And now he's working with UWM. And so the biggest anti-UWM. I think he called it the bully shield. He came up with some stop whichever I've got to know them now, and I like the guy, I always respected the guy because he was in the weeds of the business, but he started a broker shop and chose to work with UWM and not to work with Rocket. I think that sends enough measure. Someone that knows every detail that Rocket is doing and says, you came and learned about UWM and joined broker -- or we started to broker shop and pick to work with UWM. I think sends the message that there will be more and more big broker shops moving over to UWM. There aren't that many left out there that don't work us but that's an opportunity. But the bigger thing is grow the broker channel and continue to grow. And so that's been very positive and the broker channels continue to be very positive, and we're excited about the growth of the channel. All right. I got -- let me -- I got a couple -- I'm going to bundle these. So I apologize, I'm not going to name everyone's name. I got a couple of questions on Mia and AI initiatives. So let me just hit on that and kind of combine these questions, let me see if I'm kind of combining a couple of people here and make sure I get it all here together. Okay. Let me -- so I'll kind of read a couple of these, and I'll talk generally about Mia, but one person asked about Mia's text messaging capabilities and how has it been going? Customers' response to Mia generally, lead time competitive-like discuss me over. So let me give you a Mia update. Mia has been fantastic. It's been almost a year. I rolled it out at UWM live last year, and it's been amazing. I think the data, and I'll get the exact number, I'll call it roughly, I would say, about 100,000 closings, but I think it's closer to like 80,000, 85,000. But let's call it in that range of closings over the last year have come from MEA. It's been fantastic. And so the Mia numbers, and not because I get the exact numbers, but it's been -- the last report I saw was so strong with Mia initiation of refinance opportunity. And so if you look at our servicing book people always ask me, hey, you have 2% or 3% of the servicing book, but you guys did 12% or 13% of all refinances, well Mia as a big part of that. Brokers do such a great job with the consumer upfront. Consumers want to come back to the broker. The problem was brokers did such an average to below-average job, I won't say a poor job of following up with their past clients. That they would just be one and done. They do the purchase and then they won't talk to them again. Well, now with Mia, she's keeping the broker in front of the of the consumer. And so when the consumer goes to replace, they work with the broker because the brokers out a better deal anyways. It just -- they just know who call. And so Mia has been fantastic. Now when she leaves voice mails, she does send the tax message out. So that was an initiation that was different. It was just voice mails. So she calls. And right now, we're seeing the data, I think I gave this data before. Mia about 40% of her calls get picked up, which was a bigger number than we expected. So 60% leave a voice mail and now we've sent text message also. And a lot of those call the broker back. Like, hey, was that AI? Or was that real? Was that spam and the like, yes, it was real. I could save you some money, let's talk and they do alone. And then on 40% over 16,000 of a 40,000 call day, let's just use that as a day. Talk to Mia and have a long conversation. I just played 1 day for the sales like they have 2, 3, 4 minute conversations. Some of them know it's AI and some of them don't know it's AI. It's gotten that good. And so then we send a follow-up e-mail to the broker, hey, you have a call scheduled at 3 p.m. with Jenny, the borrower and it's really been successful. And so we got more things coming out with Mia. I'm going to continue to enhance it. Make the scale that we're doing it with IT team has been phenomenal. Like there's no one in the country. I don't think there's anyone that I know of in any industry, level on the mortgage business doing it at the scale that we're doing with Mia. So it's been great. We feel really good about it. and it's going to get better next week at UWM LIVE and beyond. I got some big enhancements to continue to make it better and better and better, and it will help brokers win. And so I think it's a big part of that 2% to 3% of the servicing book, 12%, 13% of refis, what's that delta? Mia, brokers are doing a great job. Now we're doing a better job staying in front of them, and so it's been very, very successful. So hopefully, that -- I apologize if I didn't answer anyone's specific Mia question, but that kind of combines a couple here. All right. Let's see, Kyle Joseph. Could you review industry competitive trains, current broker share, how do you see it evolving in the current market. So I kind of answered that one, so I apologize, but let me kind of give it a little bit more and then we'll keep moving. Current broker share, I think it's about 28%. The mortgage broker market is -- brokers do about 28% of the market. And so just 5 years ago, I think in 2019 or '20, it was like 14% to 15%. So it's almost doubled. And so it's growing. Will it double again? Well, we're working on it. We're hoping so, it's obviously going from 14% to 28% harder or easier than going from 28% to 56%. But our goal is to help brokers be the #1 overall channel. So 50.1% is where we're going to go with the broker channel, and we're on a path to doing that. So with that being said, our share has been very steady. It's been over 40% for years now. I think 44.7% or 8, whatever I told you guys earlier, is roughly what is we'll call it between 40% to 45% consistently for years now. Never been done in the wholesale channel before not close. No one has about cost those market share numbers. And it's because we provide value. So you understand, it's not because I'm the best-looking guy and people love to -- like it's because we provide value. We help brokers grow. We help them look good to the real estate agents. We help them do more business, right? We help them make the process easier and we help them be successful. And so we train them, we coach them, we give them cool tools to help them win more loans. And so that's why we're the best and why we're the biggest. And we're going to continue to be the best and the biggest in wholesale and overall, but the key is helping brokers win. And so as brokers win, UWM wins. And so the nice part is like being the largest lender in the country for 4 straight years, I don't have a chance of 28 out of 100 loans. And so think about that. We're the biggest and we only have a chance to 28 out 100 loans. The other we're the #2, the #3, #4, all those guys, they have access to 100 out of 100 loans they're competing for them. So I might have been having a chance of those 72. So is that 72 out of 100 the retail channel goes to 65 or 60 or 50? Well, that's just growth for UWM. That's why we're so bullish on the UWM's growth but also on the broker growth, we're going to all win together. And so I think that answers your question, Kyle. You have another one, I usually -- I'll come back -- I guess I kind of answered that. What is your current share? So I kind of covered that one. Thank you for the question. All right. I got a couple of questions here. I think Ryan, I got a couple of ones here tied to -- yes, I'm going to kind of knock these out together expenses. So I got a couple of questions on our expenses you guys saw our expenses went down. And if I look at expenses in general, is we've invested a lot. I've been talking about it for years. And now I'm starting to see the harvesting or the success of those investments, right? And whether you want to talk about TRAC+ or the investment in free credit ports to help brokers grow. I can go through a lot of these details. And so what we're going to start seeing out is like more of a little leveling out of expenses as you saw that went down. I don't -- I think our investments are going to start paying off now and you're starting to see it already. I think you saw a little in the first quarter as we didn't have a great quarter by where I want us to be. But compared to the industry, we had a great quarter. I think we're up I think last year, first quarter, it was $32 billion, which was a great quarter. And this year, we did about $45 million. That's significant. Our gain on sale was up and volume was up year-over-year. And so seeing that and then our expenses are flat or down, right? And so we feel good about where we're at from an expense perspective. Like I said, I think of them as investments, and I think they're paying off in a really, really positive way. So I feel great about that. And I think -- I mean, I'm trying to see hopefully, I covered that comment -- question enough with that. So I think that covers it. Let's see. I got Mikhail, you got another question here. Let me hit this one because on what are your thoughts on the new Vantage score rating system for borrower credit? So sorry, Mikhail, [indiscernible]. I'm just using your question again, another question you have an advantage score. So let me give you thoughts on this because it's actually interesting. I've got a lot of talk. So kudos to the leadership of FHFA about rolling out a new way FICO scores and credit reports have got really expensive. And if you have a competitor in there, now you have options. And so options really create better outcomes. And that's why wholesale works because brokers have options and they figure out what's best and people like us. Now what's happening is FICO and Vantage are both now on the not of their game to be the best they can be. Now with that being said, there's very few companies that were put on the pilot. We were one of them. I think I rolled out less than 2 weeks ago from FHFA Director, Bill Pulte. And the support of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, 4 business days later, Wednesday last week, we rolled it out Vantage score. And so it's been an enormous, enormous success. And not for the reasons you might not for, hey, you're saving $50 a credit work. That's possible, too. But what we're doing is we've got both FICO and Vantage score. And we're making sure the borrowers get the best opportunity because they have different models. So Vantage looks at it little differently a little bit thinner credit. They understand they can add rent and other things in there. So more people can qualify or maybe they qualify with -- have a little bit of higher score. Now Vantage, you have to take a basis a 20-point haircut. So if the Vantage Score 744, that's equivalent of 724 FICO. But the FICO score was 719, Well, I just got that borrower a better deal, lower LLPAs or a little better opportunity. And so that's a win for the consumers. And so this has been a massive thing in 5 business days. And so the amount of e-mails I've gotten on loans that we've helped brokers win on consumers that have been so grateful and thankful that they can qualify for a home or they got a better interest rate and lower fees. -- has been phenomenal. And so kudos to FHFA, kudos to Fannie and Freddie getting out. We rolled it out with VA to date loans as well and FHFA will be soon. And I think the MI company is the leader at MI, companies like [indiscernible]. They're on it and others, they're coming and like -- like how do we do this -- how do we make things better for consumers. And so Vantage score and FICO, by the way, FICO is still great in so many ways. It's not one or the other. It's both are great. And now can we help consumers in a better way, qualify for a mortgage? Can we have better credit profiles. I've been extremely, extremely happy with this and the rollout and just to give you guys a recognition of what we do in our IT team, like to roll this thing out in 4 business days and have it work and flawlessly, is obviously a different team that put together the Zoom earlier that wasn't getting my video on earlier. Just kidding for my guys behind in the film. But you get my point of like they didn't hack of a job. They did a heck of a job of getting this thing done. It's out and live, and we're seeing so much success of it on Vantage score. So congratulations to my IT team to brokers that are understanding it, into Fannie and Freddie, who said, let's go, let's do this in FHA, of course, FHFA for leading. So hopefully, that answers your question, but other people don't have it. I think nobody in the country has it, by the way, beside UWM right now because they can't implement it as quick as us. Maybe we'll have it out in May or June. Like we're rolling with it. We're saving loans, helping loans, giving better deals right now because of Vantage. All right. Let's see. I got a couple of questions here on let's put this -- we'll do a Bilt partnership question. There's a couple. Let me try to read a couple of off and I'll try to answer, but I'll talk about Bilt, but indication of Bilt card relationship increased leads, like your status partnership with Bilt update infrastructure is in place. So here's how we -- I'll say about Bilt. Ankur Jain, the CEO of Bilt a phenomenal CEO, doing great things. Their vision is ridiculously great. So it's fantastic. UWM is servicing. So UWM as a servicer, we brought servicing in-house, we are controlling everything. What we did is we chose a platform on the front end that was able to provide rewards points to consumers, which has never been done. They don't have to use a credit card, they can use ACA to get [indiscernible]. It's all -- it's never been done in our industry. And so rewards points we're making our mortgage on time. And you know what, I mean, you guys are all consumers to, everyone loves points, you can use points. And then it hooks their credit card in there, once again, and they get points if they get their American Express point, they also get points through built, and you can do this and earn points and use it for flights and other things that you want to use it for. It's really, really cool. Now beyond that, the servicing platform is really slick, like we built this with them, obviously, because they've never done this before on the front end for mortgage. And so it's really cool for consumers. It's a great platform upfront and the Bilt partners. And on top of that Bilt has over 6 million consumers. And depending on the year, 8%, 10% of them go by houses. Those are now curated leads they're going to want to stay in the Bilt platform, and they're going to work with a mortgage broker. That's a huge opportunity. We've already had that in pilot. And so there's some really cool things. There's a service that's really cool that gives our clients our consumers, which are our brokers consumers, our brokers partners, an amazing platform to get things done and make their life easier. It's really a cool neighborhood experience. So it's hard to explain to people to who don't understand it. I'm actually -- Ankur is going to speak at UWM Live next week. So I know a lot of you guys are going to be at UWM Live. I hope you'll see him speak and you'll understand it a little bit better. But the vision is going to be awesome. But the key is UWM has servicing in house. We've been the best originator in the country for a long time. Now we're going to be the best servicer because we're focused on it. It's going to help retention for our brokers. It's going to make the consumer experience better. And there's all these other ancillary benefits to. And so it's been a great, great partnership. It's off. It's launched. It's rolling. It's fully active. And of course, getting better every day like we do with everything at UWM, but because we don't have all 600,000, 700,000 clients, consumers on it. We only have the ones that are on it right now, and they're all moving on to it. And so I've shadowed the team. I spent time with our team, our service team, the servicing process has been really great. I know you guys have asked me in the past, why don't you do it? And I've always said, focus on originations, which I'm still doing, but the cost expense will be great on the servicing were not outsourcing anymore. But better than that, the retention and experience for the consumers and our brokers is going to be even better, and that's really what we're focused on. And so we're excited about that. Hopefully, that answered the Bilt things. Let me just see, I got all these pages make sure if anyone else had a Bilt question that could maybe tie into it. All right. Let's see -- so I got a couple -- this is interesting. We -- this might take a little bit of time, and it kind of covers trying to hit all of them together on what do you see in the business for the next 3 to 5 years? You got someone says what a 10-year horizon, someone says a 5-year? I got someone asking about how do I think expenses or volume will go over the next 3 years. So I'm going to kind of combine these and kind of give you my view on our business because we just spent a lot of time on it. Like what does the next 3 to 5 years look like? And I look out -- I have 3-year goals, but then we also have 5-year goals and targets. So that's, I think, 2031. So if we were to say the next 5 years, here's like high level or high-end thought process on it is I think UWM over the 5 years from whatever you want to call, '27, '28, '29, '30, '31, those 5 years, we're expecting to do over $1.3 trillion in mortgages. I believe we're going to do $1.3 trillion or more in that 5-year window. So that's a big number overall. Now there might be 1 year and there with $400 billion. There might be 1 year and there with $150 billion to $200 billion, right? But I believe that $1.3 trillion is that kind of that North Star over the next 5 years, while -- and it's important to understand, while my expense is basically staying the same with our AI initiative and our technology, the expenses you see today, I'll call it, roughly $600 million in the quarter, I think it was $590 million or whatever, but you get my point. I expect when I do -- like each of these years, that's kind of what we'll see from expense. So think about volume doubling, more than doubling and expenses the same. Now with that being said, there's another -- which really probably is not common for by many of you, outside of the volume and gain on sale margins basically being in those ranges that you see in expenses being flat. On top of that, I see another 20% almost 25% in other revenue coming into UWM that's starting to happen with some of these ancillary products that we have, and they're starting to really pick up steam. And so seeing revenue growth outside of just -- and it's tied to originations, of course, but outside of just volume and gain on sale or however you want to think about it, there's some of that that's in the gain on sale and some of it that's maybe not and some opportunity. So that's kind of like I would say, I know that's high level. I didn't get the nitty gritty of some of these questions. Let me just read and make sure like -- and some of those other revenue sources, some of them -- could there be opportunities on TRAC+ that's really taken off? Could there be other opportunities to grow and help consumers while helping brokers and UWM winning. And so I see $1.3 -- I guess I'll summarize it, $1.3 trillion over 5 years. I see gain on sale margins basically being in these ranges, maybe slightly higher, we'll call it, expenses flat or down, and it might be down, but I'll call it flat to be clear. And at the same time, other revenue tied to some AI initiatives that we have that are actually starting to produce margin and gain on sale, while others are producing things that our other revenues could be pretty cool. So that's kind of how I look at that. Hopefully, that helps answer. I think I answered a handful of questions here. Let me look. Yes. So hopefully, that covers it. Obviously, if I didn't answer it exactly some shorter term or more detail, like I said, Blake Kolo, Investor Relations team, we will happy to jump on a call any time. Mat, any of those people you can talk to. All right. Let's see. Let's see. I got Kyle Joseph, another question, homebuyer. Like how are you thinking of the Homebuyer Privacy Protection Act and its potential impacts on the industry competitive -- the industry, competitive environments and overall margin. All right. So Kyle, let me answer that question. He's talking about the trigger lead rule. The trigger lead rule, I think it's about March 4, I think, is the date. And so it's definitely changed. When a consumer used to pull credit, man, 50 people would call them. Now it's the servicer, the original lender, original broker, maybe their bank, it's like 3, 4. And so what it's actually done is change the competitive landscape, probably better experience for consumers than not getting 50 calls. So that's one thing. I think that was the goal of Congress and people that pushed this. On the flip side, the consumers maybe don't get as many options because you get offered one thing, you don't know any better and you get offered 6.5% or with $5,000 of fees and you don't know any better and no one else is offering things, you might pay that when you could have gotten $6.25 with $3,000 of fees by working with a mortgage broker, going to mortgagematchup.com or going somewhere like that. And so the trigger leads would get more people and make people compete more. So from a competitive landscape, I could say -- I could argue that, that's maybe not as good for the consumer. The experience is better, but maybe the rates and fees aren't. But once again, if you're only winning on rates and fees, you're going to be wrong in this business. So that's part of it. Now like -- so I could argue that it actually will increase margins. And you might see gain on sale margin increase a little bit because people aren't low ball, low ball, low ball, low ball to win alone because there's not 19 people calling them in my example. So I think it's been good. It's been good overall. I don't have a huge preference one way for it or against it, but I'm just telling you what the results have been. It's still early. It's only been 60 days or so since that rule came out. But that's what we're seeing right now. But brokers -- our brokers that work with trigger leads, they're just finding other people are buying data now. So it's just not trigger leads, it's other forms of buying data. So people are still getting leads, and so it's still competitive. So I don't want to make it seem like there's -- it's just you go to one and you don't hear anything, but it's a lot less. And so it's changed the competitive environment on that. So hopefully, that answers your question, Kyle. Let's see -- hopefully, this format is good for you. I feel like we've gone through a lot of questions. Let's see. Here's one. A couple of asked a little bit about debt ratios. Let me go through why secured debt go up relative to other aspects of the balance sheet and how do we look at the debt ratio. So obviously, we look at the debt ratios every day. We're very focused on them. The debt ratios were really good a couple of years ago and the volume in the business wasn't as good. And now I think the business is really good and the debt ratios aren't as good as we like. But at the same time, some of those debt ratios are a little bit of an anomaly based on -- and same thing with the liquidity number based on some trades we have out there to help balance the MSR book. And so that sometimes goes up and down. And at the end of the quarter, it was up, but it's already come down a little bit now. And so those things change and fluctuate a little bit, which kind of throws those ratios off a little bit from what you're looking at. So they're better than you see. But at the same time, like I said, I feel really good about it. We watch the numbers closely. The key is earnings, right? And we're starting to see -- you saw we had a very good earnings quarter in the first quarter. I won't say very good, I'll say good. And there will be quarters that we have a lot bigger earnings, but we're monitoring it and managing it. We obviously really believe in delivering value to our shareholders of whether it's a dividend, which we've been doing, obviously, but then buy back shares or other things, how do we continue to add value to our shareholders, and that's what we think about a lot. And so overall, our leverage ratios, our debt ratios, we feel really good about where they are. We monitor them. We manage them, and we understand them very, very well. And there's a lot of levers we can pull to make those ratios better while still doing more business and having higher earnings. And so you'll see some of those in the second quarter and then beyond overall. So I feel good about that. I think that covered a couple of people on that. Let me just make sure I didn't miss a topic on that for anybody. Okay. So let's keep moving and let's see. I'm going to try to hit a couple of these. But Jason Stewart, another one. And once again, please feel free to e-mail. I know I can't do them live right now because I'm on a Zoom with you guys, but I'm trying to make sure I cover everyone's questions and make sure. But here's a question kind of tied about from Jason from Compass Point. During periods of heightened volatility at the start of the year, how do you manage lock duration and pricing cadence? Did you increase frequency of rate sheet updates? I'll talk about that. How much volatility is Aurora by built-in Rewards? It's got nothing to do with that, but I'll explain that in a second. And impact of purchase Boost 50 and some of these. So let me just talk pricing and dynamics and volatility. So first off, yes, I mean, the market has been very volatile. And so we have an extremely experienced capital markets team. And so yes, sometimes you have 2 and 3 different rate sheets in a day. maybe 4. rates get better. We're proving improvement out there because we don't put an improvement out there, we won't get the loans because we want the brokers to have the most competitive opportunity they have. Pricing get worse, we have to worsen pricing. But like as you guys know, these numbers are all day, all day. And so we have different thresholds that we move pricing up or down. And so when we hit those, like I said, I bet there's been days of 4 or maybe even 5. And then there's some days that you put a rate sheet out at 10 a.m., nothing changes all day or it doesn't move enough that I would make a price change because you want to have some consistency for our clients as well. So that's a balance, but we feel really good about that. And that's why you saw really strong margins fourth quarter, by the way, and first quarter. And you'll see that same thing in the second quarter, strong margins, and we -- our team manages risk and volatility. So I think that answers most of your question. You had a thing about built-in rewards, and that doesn't really have anything to do with it. Built-in rewards is just another benefit of brokers using UWM and the consumers paying UWM as a servicer because they get rewards points and they get some cool things through Bilt, which I kind of explained earlier. So it's got nothing to do with gain on sale or pricing, to be honest with you at all. And then kind of another question from you, and I think it's all one, but I'm kind of answering it. So sorry to keep hitting on your same question, Jason. Purchase Boost 50 or pricing initiatives, like -- so all those things are designed to help brokers succeed and win. Our brokers are not, I need the lowest price to succeed because if that was the case, they'd have -- they'd cut their comp in half and they'd all use Provident funding, and that doesn't mean -- lowest price does not win. Lowest fees does not win. Well, a lot of our price incentives are more strategic than that. They're incenting brokers with a price incentive but to use a tool of ours. So I think it was in the fourth quarter, maybe even the beginning of the first quarter, we had an incentive tied to 40 or 45 basis points, but use a hybrid or virtual closing because I know that makes the experience better for the consumer, which then makes the consumer more likely to like you, John Smith at Smith Mortgage as a broker and more likely to refinance with you in the future. How do we make the borrower happy to score, which we track on every single loan higher. And so a lot of those are investments, and it's all put in the gain on sale. So when you see -- I did some stuff in the fourth quarter, I did some in the first quarter, and the gain on sale is still much higher than it was last year in the first quarter. So understanding that 123 basis points, I think, is what it was in the first quarter, 122 in the fourth quarter. I understand the margins. I personally get involved with it every single day, so you know. So we track it. We understand where we're at with these things, and we give a very competitive price to our broker. We add significant value to our brokers to help them win more loans. We give the best service in the industry. We come out with AI tools and technology. We invest with free credit ports for brokers to help them compete even more and help more consumers. And then I can go through all these things. I'm not going to go through them all, but it's all part of the deal. And so hopefully, that makes sense. But I hope you realize that one thing I said there, which maybe I've not done a good job explaining is a lot of these decisions are strategic to help brokers win. Sometimes brokers have ever done a virtual closing and they're getting extra 45 basis points, we'll get them to do it. And then they do it all the loans now, even though they don't get that incentive because they realize it's the best thing for the consumer and help them build their business and grow and be a better experience. And then we all win. If brokers win, UWM wins. When consumers realize the fastest, easiest, cheapest way to get a mortgage is through brokers, UWM wins. Real estate agents win, like we're all one team because that's best for consumers. When a consumer goes to some random commercial or goes to their local bank, which, by the way, no disrespect any of those people, but they usually are paying higher rates. When a consumer goes to mortgagematchup.com, they're going to find a broker that's going to get them a better rate, better fees and a better experience. And so anything I can do to drive more business there is what I will do. I think I've covered a lot of -- I know I didn't answer every question. I apologize, but I did combine a bunch of them. So I think I've covered most themes, if that's the right way of thinking about it. Let me just make sure. UWM Live questions, I think I kind of answered UWM Live about -- it's next week. So thank you for those of you that are coming. It's going to be a great -- it's the biggest mortgage event in the year. And so please come. I look forward. I'm going to meet with some investors, analysts, anybody that's out there. I spend time. I'm there all day. We got some great speakers. it's really cool to see the broker community. So I think that's kind of answering your question here about is UWM Live, am I going to be there? Of course, I'm going to be there. I love that. I'm here every day grinding at it. So we're about 40 minutes, I feel like we've covered a lot of the questions. I don't know, how about this? Just make sure I'm not missing anyone specific question that asked. I think I've covered it all. Let me know how you like the format. Maybe next month, I can see you guys too, and we can have more interaction. But either way, hopefully, you like the format. Hopefully, it's different. I know that last quarter, you didn't like that we didn't do the Q&A. So I'm here for it. I love this. I'll do this any time with you guys. I enjoy talking about our business, but also you can use me as talking about the industry because this is what I live and breathe and sleep every day. So please give us feedback, give our Investor Relations team on the format, if you liked it. If make sure we didn't answer questions, I apologize. I think I got everybody. But if I didn't, and you're asking Investor Relations team, Blake, that whole team will answer all your questions. And -- we appreciate you guys. So thanks for being partners of UWM, shareholders, investors, analysts, anything we do to help make your life easier. Thanks for everything. And we're going to keep winning together, hopefully, with our brokers, the broker community and UWM is going to continue to grow with my amazing team members here at UWM. So thank you for your time. Excited about the future here at UWM. Second quarter is going to be great as well, and we'll do the same format again unless I get a lot of different feedback that you didn't like it, but hopefully you did, and hopefully, it was valuable to you to spend this time with me. Have a great day.