Vastned (VASTB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to Vastned 2020 Results and Strategy Update. My name is [indiscernible], and I will be your coordinator for today's event. Please note, this conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand over to your host, Remco Vergeer to begin today's conference.

Thank you. Good morning, welcome to Vastned's 2020 Full Year Results and Strategy Update Presentation. My name is Remco Vergeer, Manager, Investor Relations; and with me is Reinier Walta, Interim CEO of Vastned. We have published our 2020 results and strategy update in separate publications this morning, and you can find them both on our website. During this webcast, Reinier will elaborate on the results and the strategy update, and the slides are now available for download on our website as well [indiscernible] with the opportunity to ask questions. Reinier, please go ahead.

Thank you, Remco, and thank you for joining today's call. We hope that you and your relatives have stayed safe during these turbulent times. I would like to start with the 2020 results presentation first and then followed by the strategy update presentation in the second part of this webcast. This slide shows the highlights of 2020. The second half of 2020 started hopeful as the lockdowns were lifted in Europe and all stores in our portfolio were open. However, during the fourth quarter of 2020, most governments in the countries where Vastned operates introduced new measures to counter the second wave of COVID-19 in Europe. COVID-19 has therefore impacted our results at the end of 2020 again, but thanks to the hard work of our team and the good quality of our portfolio, we were able to report solid results in a very challenging year. Our high-quality real estate portfolio has clearly proven itself during the COVID-19 crisis. The occupancy rate remained high at 96.5% at the end of 2020, and the portfolio showed a relatively limited decrease in value of 5.2%. The collection rate was also high at 90% at the end of the year. Our direct result was EUR 1.85 per share at the upper end of the adjusted forecast, which was provided during the half year 2020 results. This results in a dividend proposal of EUR 1.73 per share. Today, we also published our strategy update, which can be summarized as follows: Vastned adheres to its mission of stable and predictable long-term results by optimizing and concentrating the real estate portfolio, whereby greater diversification of tenants types and the creation of an inner city portfolio with mixed-use real estate are important pillars of the strategy. This in combination with increasing the cost efficiency of the organization and a conservative financing structure. Through this, Vastned wants to create long-term value for all its shareholders in a sustainable manner. More about the strategy update will follow in the second part of my presentation. Since December 2020, I'm acting as interim CEO for the company after Taco de Groot stepped down. The Supervisory Board decided to nominate me as CEO of Vastned. Shareholders can vote for this nomination during our annual general meeting, which will be held on the 15th of April 2021. Next slide, please. The direct result, which reflects the cash flow from operations for the full year 2020 are impacted by COVID-19 and came out at EUR 1.85 per share. The indirect result includes the noncash items of our profit and loss statement, including downward revaluations of the portfolio of 5.2%, came out at a negative EUR 4.26, resulting EPRA NTA of EUR 43.78. Our loan-to-value stands at 43%. This is slightly up from year-end 2019, but it is within the target bandwidth that we had for 2020 of 35% to 45%. And our average cost of debt further decreased to 2%. Let's move on to operational performance. The occupancy decreased marginally quarter-on-quarter to 96.5%. As you can see, Spain and France are basically fully let, where occupancy in the Netherlands and Belgium slightly decreased. All in all, a good result taking current challenges into account. Slide 6 shows more details about the leasing activity in 2020. Apart from the COVID-19-related discussions with all our tenants, we also continued our regular leasing activity. This resulted in 71 leases signed, including new contracts for a number of tenants in the Netherlands, Belgium and France. We signed a relatively large amount of new contract with supermarkets and lifestyle stores like Lidl, Spar, VkusVill, Jumbo, Rituals and Holland & Barrett. We also signed a large amount of extensions with, for example, Louis Vuitton in Paris, I think it's in Bordeaux, Armani in Antwerp and Mango in Brussels. And in Paris, we signed an office lease at the first floor of Rue de Rivoli at higher rents than we would have done if it was leased to our retail tenants. The 71 leases came out EUR 400,000 lower than the previous rents, which is a decrease of around 4.3%. Next slide, please. On this slide, you see the impact of COVID-19 on our portfolio in 2020. The government measures as a result of the global outbreak of COVID-19 were introduced as of the middle of March 2020 in the countries where Vastned operates. As a result, almost half of the property portfolio was confronted with closures in the final weeks of March, all of April and May and part of June 2020. All of our stores were open again during summer, and we saw a relatively strong footfall throughout that period. Since the open-air nature of high street retail has been preferred of closed shopping centers. Conversion ratios increased significantly in summer months, which helped our tenants to recover some of their losses they incurred during the first of the half year, the first half of the year. However, tourists kept avoiding the large tourist destinations and did not recover in 2020. Unfortunately, new government measures that were introduced from October as the second wave of COVID-19 hit countries in Europe, and we face new store closures. As France and Belgium reopened again, the authorities in the Netherlands tightened restrictions. Restaurants and bars announced were closed from mid-October and from mid-December onwards, all nonessential stores were closed. Belgium and France also closed restaurants and bars. This situation continues until today and the Dutch authorities even introduced a curfew from the January 23. The Netherlands represents almost half of our property portfolio, and this challenging situation makes a start of 2021 difficult as well. The restrictions in Spain don't impact our portfolio as they only apply to large stores and shopping malls. Our tenants were allowed to stay open from June 2020 onwards. Slide 8 explains more about the agreements we have with our tenant base. During the fourth quarter of 2020, more than half of our portfolio suffered from a temporary lockdown. Our team has had intensive dialogues with all our clients. We try to anticipate as much as possible to changing situations and have always been in control. Tailor-made agreements were made and contracts were renegotiated, benefiting from investments made in our new property management system. In some cases, this resulted in temporarily lower rents with longer leases and higher rental increases. Rents in total of EUR 4.7 million have been waived, where a clear difference had been made based on the local COVID-19 situation, and in many cases, also other local forms of support, like, for example, in France, where small retailers were supported by the government. In some situations, waivers have been combined with the extension of contracts and increases in rents post COVID-19, which was in particular the case in Spain. In total, EUR 1 million rent was deferred in 2020 to mainly 2021. On the next slide, we will give more details on the progress of the rent collection. During 2020, we have sent invoices totaling EUR 81.8 million. These are mostly rents but also service charges in VAT. We have negotiated waivers of EUR 4.7 million, which was including VAT, which is 6% of the total amount, leaving a maximum of 94% to be collected. Deferrals amounted to EUR 1 million at the end of 2020. At the end of the year, we had collected EUR 73.3 million, resulting in a collection rate of 90%. This is an improvement from the level of 84% we reported at our half year results. At the end of the year, a total amount of EUR 5.7 million of receivables was outstanding for charges up to and including 2020. Of this amount, EUR 1 million has been deferred. We have taken a provision for expected credit losses of EUR 2.5 million, which leads to a position of net receivables of EUR 3.2 million. Slide 10 shows our like-for-like rental growth. Like-for-like rental growth would have come out at 0.4% in 2020 without the COVID-19 impact. However, including waivers, the like-for-like rental growth came out at 5.5% negative. France has been a positive outlier following the lease-up of the Rue de Rivoli flagship store to JD Sports. The next slide, please. On this slide, we see that a large part of our portfolio has performed stronger during COVID-19. In good times, a rising tide lifts all boats, however, today and going forward, it will be much more about quality and allocations of the portfolio. 83% of the value of our portfolio is located in cities with historic city centers. We believe that our locations in these cities are irreplaceable, whereby demand will remain for key high street locations. The 6% residential and office exposure for Vastned has proven to be very resilient. As presented at our half year 2020 results, we are also finalizing a residential study to develop 140 units above our asset on the [indiscernible]. We further recognize supermarkets, personal care, sports and home & garden performing better than pre-COVID-19. Fashion, accounting for 48% of our rental income has been under most pressure and support has been provided to those tenants, which clearly needed it. The next slide, please. Management of Vastned is focused on and committed to cost efficiency. General cost decreased to EUR 7.4 million in 2020, compared to EUR 8.1 million in 2019. Adjusted for the one-off items in 2020, normalized general costs were EUR 7.6 million, a decline of 6% compared to 2019. The decrease in those normalized costs is driven by a combination of lower personnel costs and office costs. Total cost as a percentage of gross asset value are stable at 52 basis points, which is relatively low compared to the peers in the sector. On Slide 13, we will discuss our financing structure. The average cost of debt has come down another 21 basis points to 1.99% at year-end. This has been the result of refinance of more expensive private placements by cheaper debt. In December, Vastned secured a EUR 40 million green revolving credit facility under its green financing framework. At the same time, Vastned [indiscernible] earlier and committed multi-purpose facility with ABN AMRO from EUR 30 million to EUR 20 million. Vastned does not have mortgage loans and as such, as a fully unencumbered portfolio, which gives maximum flexibility. We have also no rated bonds, and as such, also no related costs for credit ratings. On the next slide, we show that all debt maturities are covered until 2024. Vastned has around EUR 104 million of undrawn facilities, which could cover all debt maturities until 2024. Although 2024 is still far out, it shows a relatively big spike, this is, to a large extent -- this, to a large extent, relates to revolving credit facilities, which by nature have short-term maturities and have been rolled over several times. Next slide, please. We're now going to discuss our financial results in more detail. On slides -- on this slide, we discuss our profit and loss statement. Gross rental income for 2020 came out at EUR 64.9 million, which is EUR 4.3 million lower than last year. This mostly relates to waivers given to selected tenants due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Operating expenses increased year-on-year mainly as a result of a higher provision for bad debt of EUR 1.5 million, increasing the total provision to EUR 2.5 million at the end of 2020. Financial expenses declined by EUR 1.8 million as a result of changes in the loan and derivatives portfolio. And as explained before, the general expenses declined and normalized for one-offs within EUR 0.5 million due to cost reduction in mainly personnel expenses. Slide 17 shows our direct results. The direct result per share increase from EUR 2.03 per share in 2019 to EUR 2.18 per share, driven by the lower overhead costs and the lower interest cost. The COVID-19 impact has been EUR 0.33 per share. All in all, this led to a direct result of EUR 1.85 per share in 2020. The next slide, please. Major changes in the balance sheet mainly related to the EUR 84 million revaluation of the assets. The receivables were already discussed in detail as well as a new green loan. Slide 19 discusses the value movements of our portfolio. We have seen a relatively limited decrease of 5.2% in the value of our portfolio, taking the circumstances into account. This decrease was the result of the continued negative impact of COVID-19. The retail environment is in transition, as we have mentioned for strong time now, and COVID-19 has accelerated this development. Another factor of the valuation decrease was our operation rotation we took place in 2020. As part of this 3-year rotation schedule, our external valuers has value different assets, which resulted in renewed market level rents and prices accordingly. The next slide, please. Our outlook for 2021. Uncertainties are still high, especially in the Netherlands, representing roughly half of our portfolio, where we see the most strict lockdown in our portfolio. But the situation remains uncertain in the other countries as well where Vastned operates. In France, the government closed a large shopping mall, again, since last week. This is not directly impacting our assets, but it shows that the situation is not under control yet. We will continue to be focused on keeping occupancy high, achieving high collection rates and cost efficiency. At the same time, we will roll out our strategy update. Due to the current uncertainty in relation to the government measures, we do not provide a forecast for a direct result for the year 2021 at this moment. So these were the numbers. I'll now let to discuss our strategy update, which starts on Slide 23. In May 2020, when we are in the middle of the first lock down, we announced our strategy update. Vastned has mentioned several times in recent years that the retail market is in transition. The outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic accelerated this development and Vastned brought its strategy update forward to fit the changing retail environment. On this slide, you will see the highlights of our strategy update. We adhere to our mission of generating stable and predictable returns in the long term. Vastned will optimize its portfolio and concentrate on mixed-use properties in historic centers, where shopping, working, living and leisure meat. The focus will be on retail properties that attract different type of tenants and when there is potential to create apartments or offices. Where possible, Vastned aims to create classes of properties in the various cities. On Slide 24, we will discuss the main -- 4 main topics of the changing retail environment. We identify 4 trends in the retail environment. First, e-commerce is growing compared to physical retail, driven by changing consumer behavior and technological developments. The outbreak and spread of COVID-19 has accelerated these developments and further stimulated online shopping. This trend is expected to continue, forcing retailers to rethink their business models and store portfolio. Online sales are often not profitable, and competition is much higher. Retailers need to find a mix of online and physical shops. Vastned believes that an online business model is not enough that the quality and service of the physical stores will remain essential for the success of the retailers. These developments are not only affecting the demand for square meters at B location, but also for A retail locations, where retailers have become more selective in that choice for their physical stores. Secondly, we see a change in consumer behavior. A bigger portion of the household expenditure is spent on the basic necessities of our households. So this housing rent, water, electricity, cars and education. This decrease is the budget for other purposes like fashion consumption. The money that is less for free consumption is increasingly going to, for example, recreation and travel. In our portfolio, we see that fashion is the most vulnerable segment, locations with most exposed fashion and tourist -- tourism have faced most problems accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic. This brings us to the third big topic, tourism. In the last decade, tourism has been an important driver for retail sales in historic European cities. COVID-19 caused tourism to decline in 2020 and the vulnerability of the high street retail property portfolio became feasible, especially for the fashion segment again. While we expect a full recovery of tourism in the long term, a recovery of tourism in European cities is foreseen to be gradual. And finally, the urbanization trend is expected to continue. Globally, cities are the main driver of the economy and innovation, and the trend of urbanization will continue in Europe and the rest of the world in the long term. It has also been shown in 2020 that people like to return to the city centers as soon as government measures are released. Historical inner cities will, therefore, remain popular. However, the COVID-19 pandemic has ensured that more attention will be paid to space and sustainability in the cities. We believe that this will be a point of focus for government going forward. The company expects demand for both commercial and residential real estate and historic inner cities to remain high while supply is limited. Now let's move to Slide 25, which provides a high-level overview of our strategy update. Our strategy is built on 3 pillars: an optimized and concentrated portfolio, an efficient organization and a conservative finance. Vastned will further optimize the real estate portfolio and concentrate it on a mixed-use, clustered property portfolio in historic city centers where shopping, working, living and leisure go hand-in-hand. The organization will do this cost efficiently by increasing digitization and data-driven work. In doing so, we will maintain conservative financing structure. We will discuss each of these pillars in the next slide, starting with Slide 26. We want to create a clustering of assets in historic city centers of mixed-use properties, where people can live -- shop, live, work and relax. We plan to diversify our tenant types with more emphasis on retail with exposure to the local economy and therefore, less exposure to tourism. We target to reduce exposure to fashion to 30% from the current 48%. We will invest in mixed-use assets that serve the local economy. And where possible, Vastned will redevelop the upper floors of the buildings in which it invests and convert them in apartments and offices. In line with this philosophy, Vastned intends to further concentrate the portfolio. On the one hand, this means an evaluation of the existing portfolio, which could lead to the disposal of properties or part of the portfolio provided, they are at the right value. This evaluation of the fixed portfolio will be done against a number of criteria, such as what's the expected net rental income in 2021 and going further. What's location of the property. Do we have operational control over the property. And to what extent is the property suitable for different type of tenants. On the other hand, this also means investing in new properties that fit within the mixed-use profile. By investing in clusters of mixed-use properties and location that not only rely on tourism, but where retail also serves the local population, new growth can be created. A good example of this is Vastned cluster of real estate in Ferdinand Bol in Amsterdam. Vastned expanded its cluster in 2019 and now owns 13 buildings in the street. The retail located here mainly serves the local population and 57 residential units are located on the upper floors of this cluster. Clusters like this reduce the exposure to fashion and tourism, what is located in the historic city of Amsterdam. Vastned will no longer invest in retail assets that is only suitable for fashion. Data analysis increasingly supports the sustainability of the real estate portfolio. And except for this is the collection of data relating to tenants' energy consumptions on the basis of which Vastned has identified targeted energy saving renovations for the largest energy consumers in the property portfolio. Focus on sustainability will ultimately lead to a higher overall valuation of the property portfolio. And now let's discuss the second pillar of our strategy on Slide 27. Vastned's organization will be adapted to match the new focus of the portfolio. The Vastned team will continue to manage the portfolio hands on proactively and pragmatically and aims for cost efficiency. If specific knowledge of capacity is not available within the organization, it will be hired externally, if necessary. Vastned work is increasingly data-driven, where possible process will be digitized, leading to a reduction in the number of FTE. At year-end 2020, Vastned employed 37 FTE. The goal is to reduce this number by 20% to around 30 by the end of 2021. The statutory Board will consist of 1 member being the CEO. As of 1 March 2021, the Board will be assisted by the Executive Committee, which will take over the role of the management team. And anticipating the expected continuing trend of combining working at home and at the office in the years to come, and with the experience of the lockdown in 2020, Vastned has decided to move ahead over from [ South X ] in Amsterdam to smaller offices in [indiscernible] at a lower cost. As a result of the above efficiency measures, Vastned expects to realize a 10% saving in normalized general expansion in 2021, compared to 2020. This saving target comes on top of the 6% savings in normalized general cost that we realized in 2020 and which we presented earlier in this presentation. The third pillar of our strategy update is on Slide 28. Vastned pursues a conservative financing structure that allows for the implementation of its strategy. Vastned wants to lower its risk profile by lowering its LTV target to maximum 40% over time, while increasing the share of green loans in the total debt outstanding. In order to anchor sustainability in Vastned's financing, the company has developed a green finance framework through which we can increase green loans for the company. In addition, funding sources have been broadened by, for example, entering into long-term bond loans with institutional investors such as private placements. The share of non-bank loans will be at least 25%. The maximum amount of floating interest will be 1/3. And finally, we will continue our current dividend policy, which states that we pay out at least 75% of our direct results. In this way, the dividend policy contributes to the long-term value creation by the company. And on the next slide, we summarize our targets. This gives an overview of the strategic targets. We plan to decrease our exposure to tourism and fashion. Our acquisitions will be focused on mixed-use assets and redevelopment potential for housing. Over time, this will lead to a reduction of fashion exposure of 30%. On top of the 6% general cost reductions in 2020, we will reduce general cost further by 10% in 2021. The number of FTE will be reduced by 20% in 2021, and the move of our Amsterdam head office to [indiscernible] will also save EUR 100,000 per annum in housing cost. We aim to lower the maximum loan-to-value to 40% over time. Our dividend policy will be unchanged, at least 75% of direct results will be paid out. So now let's go to the final slide for our conclusion. The 3 pillars of our strategy are debt summarized. Firstly, we create a mixed-used clustered property portfolio in historic city centers where shopping, working, living and leisure meet. Secondly, Vastned organization will be adapted to match the new folks of the portfolio. The organization will be cost-efficient through digitization and data-driven working. And thirdly, Vastned pursues a conservative financing structure that allows for the implementation of this strategy. In doing so, Vastned adheres to its mission of generating long term, stable and predictable results and contributing to the livability and preservation of cultural heritage of historic city centers. And that's the end. So with that, I would like to open the line for questions. Operator?

[Operator Instructions] We have 2 questions on the line. The next question comes from the line of Niko Levikari from ABN AMRO auto.

Just to check, can you hear me?

Yes. Perfectly.

But to follow-up on that. And regarding the planned disposals, maybe we can kick off with that. Just to understand this a bit better. Given the intention to increase the mix uses in the portfolio, could this imply that you will also apply some rent, let's say, city center assets that might be more suited mainly for office and residential purposes? Or is the intention still there that they need to be, let's say, high street assets of some sort, but with the intention that there will be more offices and retail on top. Just to get a bit of a sense on that. And then secondly, about the regional focus. I mean you still have some, let's say, mixed retail assets, for example, in Belgium. Could this mean that you are now intending to divest these in the coming years? If you could provide a bit of color on that. And then about the regional exposures, are you still intended to keep the master in the 4 regions where you operate in? Or are you potentially exiting some of the regions or likely, say, where you might have a smaller portfolio. Let's kick off with that.

Yes, Niko, I think what we are aiming for is that we are going to do active portfolio management. So -- and active portfolio management has multiple angles. First, we will look at new assets, which fit in our mixed-use ideas. So what are we going to do is we're going to -- we can buy within the historic city centers assets which have retail and offices and residential. Would we buy residential blocks to the outskirts of the city? I don't think that is the aim. Could we buy a residential block, which is next to our retail units and get that clustering idea? That could be an idea. On the regional focus and also may be coming back on the active portfolio management is that we also will look at -- that we will look at disposals. We created a model. In that model, we will look at different types of criteria. And on the base of those criteria, we can decide that we may sell some units or part of the portfolio. Currently, we don't have -- we are rolling out the strategy. We're looking at that. We are working on our model. And this is something that will be done over time. And all assets in the portfolio in all countries will be looked at. So that means that in all countries, we could sell assets or not. So that's the way we are dealing with that. So currently, we also stay in all -- in a country where we are active.

Okay. Fair enough. And let's say, maybe just a small follow-up on the COVID impact on the deferrals, how is this -- what's, let's say, the payment schedule for the EUR 1 million? I mean it's -- I know the large sum, but is the intention that the tenants have to pay that over 2021? For example, or if you can elaborate on that?

The EUR 1 million that's deferred payments, that's part of the agreements we have made with our tenants. And the EUR 1 million, most of that will have to be paid in 2021. Of course, in 2021, we have to look how things are playing out. And we are currently -- we're constantly talking to our tenants and also making agreements with our tenants, where we really see what's the situation of the tenant. And maybe -- so far, it should be paid in 2021, it could be that we're going to defer it a little bit further to 2022, for example, if that's necessary. All our agreements with tenants are tailor made. We speak to all our tenants. Our portfolio managers are out there constantly, and they are really focusing on that we know what the situation of the tenant is and see how we can deal with that and how we can help tenants because we would like to keep a tenant.

Sure. Maybe it's the last question from my side about the revaluations. The only thing that really, let's say, stands out, in my opinion, is the, let's say, the Spanish revaluations, and that was a bit of a surprise. Is that because you now have a new appraisal operating there, and then what are the, let's say, the main adjustments that they've done given the negative evaluations of almost EUR 10 million? [indiscernible] on that.

Yes, that's -- what I can comment on that is that we have an independent process. All the evaluators have been rotated in all countries. What you see also is that in some countries, there are more -- more market evidence because there is more trading. So I don't know why the -- why Spain has been a bit more -- it's a bigger decrease. But what you can see is it's an independent process. It's up to the evaluators. And Spain are permanently -- it's a little bit more than in the other countries. And you can also see France is the other way around.

The next question comes from Herman Van Der Loos.

I have this -- I have three questions. The first, I understand that the organization is going to become very lean and very mean. But I think for CEO, are you going to take both functions? That is my first question. Then my second question on valuation. Could you perhaps give more details on ERVs and yields? Is it all [indiscernible] or are ERVs going down, and especially, I was thinking about France and Spain? And then my first question is on the -- on your slide, strategic slide about the lowering of LTV. I'm a bit personally because now year-on-year, despite disposal, the LTV goes up each year, slowly, of course, no drama here, but still goes up. The valuation I expect to that are going to fall again. So LTV, all things equal, is going to rise again. You were quite generous on dividend. So on that aspect you for all the shareholders. But I don't see precisely how is LTV going to go down. Can may understand that, again, you're going to be net setter, very big net seller, Especially after the refocus of the portfolio. We heard again and again in the past that you were now -- their focus was over. You were in the [ CCA ], as you call them at that time in [ CCA ] assets. So what things could you dispose? And what kind of net disposal in terms of size can we expect? And is this not going to hurt your EPS, of course, again?

Let me first start with your first question, Herman, on the organization. What we're going to do is we're not going to have a CFO, but we're going to have an executive committee. The Finance Director will also be in that Executive Committee, and he will take over quite a large part of the CFO role under my supervision. And some items will stay with me. So I'm not going to do a double role. But we are going to organize it differently. And then your second question was on valuation, what is yields or ERVs or combination of. What I can say there it's -- we have seen upward revaluation. We have seen downward revaluation, and altogether, that came out of 5.2%. And it is -- in a lot of situations, sometimes it's ERVs. And in other situations, it's a little bit of yield. Sometimes it's a little bit of ERV and a little bit of yield, but it's a combination of both -- throughout the portfolio. And then the last question for you is on LTV. And it's yes, do we have to sell a lot to go down? The first thing is that the LTV target is a long-term target. So we do not aim to lower the LTV quickly because that would mean that you would be -- you have to sell quite quickly to get there. This is for us to stabilize the portfolio in the company to take less risk. So that's something that will go over time. We explained that we're going to look at the portfolio and assets and on the base of our active portfolio management, we will see whether there are assets which don't fit the new strategy and which may be sold. But we also will look at the same time with acquisitions so that LTV goal is a long-term goal. Does that answer your question, sir, Herman?

But Reinier, we can so understand that the company in the next years will be a net seller of assets.

That's something I cannot say at this moment, Herman. That's also -- we're going to roll out the strategy. We're going to look at it. And it could go both ways, but that's not a conclusion we can have at this moment.

And one last question. I'm sorry. I'm getting also -- I always ask the same questions. Lean and mean company, but still listed entities and 2 CEOs.

We are always looking at our Belgium situation, of course, and it's not a preferred situation. But -- and you know that in 2018, we have tried to get the double delisting done. We didn't succeed. And currently, there are no plans to do that again.

The next question comes from the line of Romain Kumps from Kepler Cheuvreux.

Can you hear me?

Yes. Absolutely.

Okay, right. Did you see any positive revaluation or rent increase in some parts of the portfolio? I guess the bandwidth goes some -- or some time of core city assets. Did you see any type of positive evaluation there?

Yes. Because the revaluation is a combination of positive revaluation and negative revaluation. So in some instances, we also saw some positive revaluation. That has to do where we, for example, had a contract renewed for another 5 years. And in some instance, even had some rent increases. So those situations are also there.