Veefin Solutions Limited (543931) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Audio Gap] All in one page. So let me spend a minute here. Right at the top, what you see is the monetizing products. So all recent products that we saw till now, they are classified in 3 different layers, right? At the top is your supply chain finance and LOS. These are our most mature products. That's where we have a 50-plus financial institutions and the $47 billion annual disbursement that you see, that is on these platforms. These are the platforms which are live. These are the platforms where our clients are paying us month-on-month, year-on-year, okay? And the next one are our products, which are our NP differentiated products, which are your LMS collections, fraud and risk, the GenAI products. These are the products that we use to deepen our relationship with the clients. And many times, these also become our cross-selling entry points. A client may want just a GenAI point solution, we get in using that and then the other products will follow through. These products, they actually increase the share of wallet in an account. And they also increase share of mind space in an account because then you're talking with your banks and your counterparts in the banks, not on one product, but you are talking of multiple products. You are that much more deeply entrenched in the bank. The third layer is the strategic IP. And this is where a lot of investments has gone in over the last few years, which is on your trade finance, cash management, liquidity management, corporate Internet banking, retail Internet banking. Now these are large enterprise systems and these have long term monetization potential. Now this is what changes the product relationship into an enterprise relationship because now you then have larger transformation deal that you go after. Your client tenures become even longer and the lifetime value is much higher and we are seeing that. As we are signing deals, we are seeing that. So underneath all of these layers is your shared architecture, reusable services, common APIs. I'll show you what this exactly means. And because of this, what is actually happening in terms of our thesis. So if you look at -- the part that -- this is a culmination of what I was just talking about, okay? So we are not naming clients here because there are confidentiality requirements which we have. But these are some of the flagship deals that we have signed in the first quarter. Look at the first one. It is one of the largest digital banks in the GCC and there, we have sold 6 products. We are all talking about right now cross-sell, entry points, larger ticket size, larger wallet share, exactly. One deal gets you LOS, LMS, collections, trade finance, supply chain, and our limits microservice. Limits microservice is usually a core service, which sits within the core bank itself. Here, this has been removed from the core bank and been handed out to Veefin. If you see this, this is not a tech point solution purchase. This is basically a platform decision that the bank has taken by saying, I would rather move everything that I have and I need onto one Veefin platform. That's really heartening for us. The second one, very similar is, again, some non-bank company in the Middle East, which now takes LOS, LMS, and collections -- all 3. So it's a full lending stack that they're going for, not 1 product per vendor, all 3 products from the same vendor. Again, they chose us because they like the fact that we were all on the same single stack. The third one is a supply chain finance product. It was 5 countries in Africa, 1 single deal, shown as 5-country implementation, both for supply chain and LOS. That's what we are doing. If you look at the scoreboard, what is it -- 5 new clients signed in the quarter, largest single win with 6 products at 1 shot, okay? $15.27 million of wins of the qualified pipeline after we have shown the qualified pipeline. So out of that, $15.27 million has these 5 deals put together, which have that and 5 countries in 1 single rollout. There's a single rollout that we'll be doing with 5 countries. Now the takeaway therefore, is very clear that Veefin is now increasingly being bought as a platform, not as a single product. And this therefore, changed the deal size. It changed the tenure and it changed the quality of revenue. This is a new slide. We have not used this ever in the past, but let me, therefore, take some time and explain. I got a message. My camera was turned off. So yes, it's turned on again, okay? So this slide, let's take some time here and understand this slide. When we go deeper into this slide, which is there, how do signings get converted to revenue? We get this question a lot. Now how do the signings get converted to revenue? Now if the signings are strong, like if it's $15.27 million, when can you see it in revenue and that's what many people want to model. So I want all of you all who are here to actually internalize this very well. So typical enterprise deal that we are in will have revenues coming from 3 places, okay? First is the implementation fee right at the top, but that is a onetime thing. Now that is something which will trickle in build. Implementation fee is billed on milestones. So there could be some money right upfront on signing. There will be some money on certain milestones that you will have then over a period of the journey of implementation. So our standard implementation, assuming it's a 9-month implementation, we will therefore see that we get implementation fees, which is a onetime fee coming in the first 9 months, okay, starting from signing and concluding at go-live. Once this is done, then post that, we usually the second set of fees, which are the license fees. Now license fees could be your SaaS AUM-based fees. License fees could be a monthly recurring. It could be an annual recurring, quarterly recurring. We know there are various types. That fee starts post the system goes live. So now we are in 9 to 12 months, 15-month period. Now this period which is there, which is the next 9 months from the go-live, that is when you start seeing a ramp-up of numbers -- because if the client has an existing business, that has to get migrated. The migration activities will not happen. If they have an existing book, that will have to get transferred here so that we start seeing revenues. So the second line, the license is basically billed annually, quarterly, monthly, but that's a recurring fee, which now starts. The third type of fees that you then now get is your AMC and support fees. That will usually start from year 2 onwards because year 1, you don't charge AMC. Year 2 onwards, you start AMC, and that's again recurring. AMC is Annual Maintenance Contract. That starts from year 2 onwards. So what you're seeing here, a deal that I signed today starts paying me fees right from now till 21 months right upfront and then will extend the license fees, and the AMC fees will extend to 4 to 7 years depending on the contract period. So when we explain, now let's go back and see. When I say a $15.27 million worth of deals we have closed in quarter 1. It means they will all go through the similar cycle. There will be a chunk of that which come through implementation in the first 9 months. Then the license and the AMC, depending on the contractual obligations, there will start flowing for the contract period. All of these contracts that we have signed are 5-year periods. So you will see these revenues over the next 5 years. And the most important thing, which is there is what is critical. Today, the revenues that you are seeing, therefore, their revenues, which are deals that we had signed in '24. These are all FY '24 deals, FY '25 deals. Money of that is what you are seeing right now. Similarly, what we are signing now therefore, sees to it that our FY '28, '29, the annuity base at that point in time is taken care of what we are doing right now. So when you are modeling Veefin, therefore, you should model Veefin in terms of cohorts, not just a quarter. An annual cohort is what you should be looking at. That's how -- what will make the most sense for you. And these dates that I've given you, these are indicative time lines. Like, when I'm saying 9 months, it's not 9 months. There are customers who go live in 3 months also. There are customers that go live in 5 months also. But I'm saying depend -- because now we are moving into a territory of large deals. So therefore, you may have a situation where you will have a longer implementation period also. This is about stand-alone. How to read between Veefin numbers. I said there are 2 lens which are there. I'll just reiterate this again, but this keeps coming back again and again. So I've taken the liberty of adding a slide here that stand-alone tells you the product economics. The consol will tell you the statutory parameters. So both lens are important. But when you're going through the financials, you use 2 separate lenses. If you want to ask how is Veefin as a product company doing, look at stand-alone. How you, as a shareholder, want to look at Veefin, then look at the consol numbers. Moving on to the numbers. The first, what we'll do is we look at the stand-alone numbers year-on-year. If you look at the stand-alone numbers year-on-year, your Q1 at INR 23.14 crores vis-a-vis INR 10.14 crores is at 128% jump. Revenue has grown 128%. Your reported EBITDA from -- which is there, which is INR 12.83 crores against INR 5.49 crores, that's a 133% jump out there. And your PAT, which is there at INR 6.74 crores against the INR 2.68 crores last year, which is a 151% jump. So just look at the sequence. Your revenue is up 128%, your EBITDA is up 133% and PAT is up 151%. Now each line is growing faster than the other. And this is the operating leverage that we keep speaking about, okay? Your EBITDA margins have improved. The takeaway is very simple. On a stand-alone level, the revenue EBITDA and PAT have more than doubled versus last year and the margins have also expanded. The margins have also expanded while doing that. So growth at Veefin is compounding. So that's the story that you take away from this slide, okay? If you look at the stand-alone revenue quality, that's again extremely important because the quality of growth, revenue is growing, that's great, but what about the quality of growth. If you see this, in the revenues, recurring is 74%. So from existing clients, our recurring revenue is 74% here. Onetime revenue is 26%. So that's the stickiness that we keep talking about. On the client mix that you see, 77% of the revenues came from our existing clients or old clients, okay? Only 23% came from new clients. Now when you read that with the 5 new clients that we added this quarter, what it means is the existing clients will keep buying more and our cross-sell thesis is validated from this. On the geography side, we are close to 50-50 between domestic and international. So that's -- it just shows that we are not dependent on any one geography. We are very well spread out. And on the pipeline slide also, you will see that, that much more. We've added this slide because we keep hearing -- we keep fielding questions on the DSO. So if you see the DSO trend, we mapped out the DSO trends over the last few years, like FY '24, '25, '26, '27. So you see FY '27 is actually at 80 days, is a 69 days improvement over FY '24. Every year, we have been improving. So what you are seeing right now is that while revenue is growing and you're seeing the revenue is growing very fast. So despite a very fast growth in revenue, more than 100%, 128% growth in revenue, our DSOs are coming down. That means we are able to collect money faster. And you remember, I had explained this earlier also to you that as we keep growing, as we keep as a company becoming stronger, we will then be in a position to start asking our clients to pay us faster. So 80, is it a good number? I think it's a brilliant number. In our planning that we do -- in our internal planning, we plan for a number which is closer to 100. 100, 105 number is what we actually aim for, but we have actually done better than that number. Our receivables are moving extremely well. Collection discipline is also tightening as we speak. And you will see the detailed operating cash flow disclosures will be there with the statutory statements. Moving on to what is mandatory. So this is the Q1 performance versus Q4. The Q4 is usually the best quarter of the year. It's usually the highest quarter of the year. But even if you see us vis-a-vis our Q4 numbers, we have nearly touched our Q4 numbers here. So our revenue is nearly there, just 4% below the Q4 numbers. Our EBITDA is just 7% shy of that, again, because of the revenue numbers out there. Reported PAT though is higher because of various other reasons because the depreciation is lower, finance cost is lower out there. But the key point is that our revenues are tracking our Q4. So it means that our base itself is higher. So I was just looking at some numbers. If you look at our average of last year, our Q1 is already 33%, 34% higher than the average of the entire last year, okay, at a quarter-on-quarter basis. So that's very healthy. It just shows that we are at a different orbit when it comes to '27. If I move to the consol numbers, consol numbers are obviously much higher because on the revenue side, our consol is -- no, no, one second. I'm actually -- let me see which slide was stand-alone. Let me come to consol. This is okay. This is the consol, which we have vis-a-vis last year. So that's the reason why it's that much higher. So 230% growth you see over last year. Revenue has more than tripled. Your EBITDA has grown by more than 100% here. Your reported PAT is close to 40% higher than last year. Now these numbers were obviously higher because we didn't have the entire consol effect coming in, in Q1 of last year. That's the reason these numbers are that much higher. But if you now look at the Q1 performance of the Q1 consol performance vis-a-vis Q4 of last year, so we are just 13% short of it. So though Q4 was our largest quarter usually traditionally in our services business, Q4 is the largest quarter. But despite that, we are very close. We are just 13% shy of that. The PAT numbers, which are there, they are 40% lower out here, as you will see. But that is normalization. So by Q2, Q3, you'll see these numbers change because Q1 is usually the slowest quarter of the year for us in our services line of the business. So again, look at the both lens. Product lens, stand-alone, which is the core product. When you look at -- and you look at that, it's sequentially growing. PAT is growing. When you look at the consol basis, there, your Q1 is obviously lower than Q4, but Q4 is obviously the biggest quarter in the services side of the business for us. So nothing to worry about out there. Very, very busy slide, but can't help it. But you need to understand them because if you're an investor in Veefin, this is what you have pumped in your money for. Everything that you see on this slide, everything other than the last line at the bottom, the gray line, external systems is not us. Everything else on this slide is Veefin. So right from channels. So what you see channels on top, which is your corporate Internet banking, retail banking, mobile banking, APIs, marketplace channels, all of those are provided by Veefin. If you look at the bottom, which is the common layers, those are all, again, the common layer, the data layer, the superdash, which is the intelligence layer that we have, the vector, which is the low-code integration orchestrator, all of these are common to all of these products that you see. Your cash, supply chain, trade, digital lending; your channels right at the top, which is your corporate Internet banking, retail Internet banking; your bottom -- this part, which is these are called the common services -- all these common are used by all of these systems across. So like a LEGO block, we have all played with LEGO blocks as kids, like a LEGO block, banks can pick and choose any of these blocks from here. All of the blocks are below follow. That is the reason why we are able to deploy products faster. That is the reason why we have higher margins. That is the reason why our clients are choosing us because of this architecture that makes their life simpler. When the central bank comes and makes a change in any customer classification, the bank doesn't need to go and change the customer classification across all of the customers in each of the different systems if they were to work with Veefin. You saw the bank in GCC. The reason they chose us is that when they make a change, they would like to make a change only in one place, not in 10 different systems. They are not then held hostage by the slowest moving tech vendor, but by a vendor who is moving at the same pace across all the products. Moving on, amalgamation. This is again something which is a very critical thing for us. So in the 7-step process, we have completed 4 steps. We are now at the fifth step, which were the first 4 BSE approvals, the NCLT first motion. The stakeholder meetings have happened, got the Board approval, got the stakeholder meeting approval. The Chairman appointed by NCLT, they have come in, they have held the meeting. The Chairman's report has also been presented. Now we are filing the NCLT petition, which is a second motion. We are filing it any time right now, okay, over the next 2, 3 days. And then the statutory NOCs. And these are just standard NOCs, which will come in from the ROCs, the GST, all of these different statutory bodies, the NOCs will be received. And it's a standard procedure. And then it's the final NCLT order. So there's going to be one meeting after this of NCLT. So this is on the verge. So I will not give you a date. But you can understand based on what I've explained that it's on the verge of getting closed. So amalgamation is around the block. That's good news for all the shareholders because it simplifies the way we look at the numbers. And it simplifies not just for us, shareholders who are here who have already got into Veefin, newer shareholders who have understood this piece and have gotten. Once this gets completed, you will have a clutch of other shareholders who will then come in, people who have been waiting on the sidelines for this amalgamation to get completed. So the direction is one simplified listed perimeter and each step now is just procedural in that sense. Moving on to PSB Xchange. The headline is the platform is moving from build-out to operating throughput. That's exactly where we are. So on the lender side, we were tracking 32 integrations last year. We still continue tracking that. First quarter is usually a slow quarter in the banking world and more so in the public sector world because close to -- by mid-May and May, the transfers which keep happening within the bank, those have to happen. So people -- so a lot of work does not happen in public sector bank in the first quarter because of the various transfers. People are coming in. They have to understand what is happening. So that is the reason why we have not had more go-lives out there. But we have added -- if you remember, last time, we had 5 integrations which are work in progress. We have added 2 more to it. So there are 2 more integrations, which are work in progress. So combined, you have 10. So what this means is that when a deal comes in now, that deal is presented to 10 lenders right now and not just 3 just because 3 are live. So deals are now getting presented to more number of lenders. On the sourcing partner side, the traction is still the same. We are waiting for more lenders to then keep adding more sourcing partners. On the platform throughput side, there you will see that our limits have increased from 5,400 last time to 5,800. And our cumulative requirements have gone up a lot. They've gone to INR 26,000 crores because we have a lot of demand out here. Many of these demand, these are named cleared. So out of the INR 5,800 crores, there are a lot of names which have been cleared by the bank. They may not have given formal approval, but they have already approved saying yes. This customer, this anchor, this corporate, I like. 94 corporate deals are in the pipeline at some stage. At some stage, they are there. That's what we are working on, okay? Moving to the qualified pipeline. This is extremely important. So if you see the qualified pipeline movement, this is a bridge which is important. This is the first time we are sharing this bridge. Now we opened with a $79.62 million pipeline. We added $20.4 million to the pipeline this quarter. That's what we added. We converted $15.27 million out of $79.62 million, okay? The $15.27 million conversion is out of $79.62 million. So we added more than what we converted. We are close to $4.5 million of pipeline, which has gone to deferred because of a time line issue. So we know it's going to take much longer. So we have removed that out of the pipeline that we are tracking. So we go back to now tracking a pipeline which is close to $80 million again. So despite closing a $15 million out of the pipeline, we have been able to add. So our pipeline addition is extremely strong. And therefore, we are back to a number of $80 million again. But that's a sign of a very healthy funnel that it refills faster than what we are able to harvest. On the qualified pipeline, we had shared this earlier. In some of the slides that you will see, we have updated the numbers. We will try to keep to the same slides at least for the next 3, 4 quarters. We'll only add slides. But whatever slide we show you, we will continue keeping the same slide and just change the numbers, so that it becomes easier for the analysts to follow the numbers quarter-on-quarter. Similarly, if you look at the qualified pipeline from a product and geography standpoint. Today, 70% of that pipeline is non-supply chain financing and 70% of the pipeline is outside India. So both 70% -- 70% is a good number in that sense. 70% is non-supply chain financing and 70% is outside India. If you remember, going back to our stand-alone numbers and revenues. Our revenues currently are 50:50, 50% India, 50% outside India. But from a pipeline perspective, we have more outside India than within India. And I think this international pipeline as a number. I can hazard a guess, we will continue growing that. As a percentage, that will continue growing. What you'll also see here is close to 50% of our deals, which is 26 out of 52, the number of deals that we're tracking in the pipeline are more than a single product. So our thesis on multiple products selling to the same institution, selling non-supply chain financing and selling outside India. So these are all bearing fruit and the pipeline shows that very well. This is the validation, which I would like to leave you with. This is the last slide, which I have. What are the priorities? So if you ask me what are the priorities that we as a team are tracking ourselves on? The first and foremost is that we have a very strong pipeline. Our sales team is focused on converting that qualified pipeline into opportunities and contracts and implementation milestone. That's what we are focused on, okay? We're focused on expanding more of these multi-product wins, cross-selling to our existing customers already. Now if you have 50 customers, we still have to do a far better job of cross-selling what we have to our existing customers. So that's low-hanging fruit, which we have not still added to the pipeline, but that's something which the team will start focusing on more. The third is PSB Xchange. The PSB Xchange, we know it's a marketplace. It's -- the build-out is slower than what we had anticipated, but we are absolutely on the right track. The corporates that we are seeing, the large corporates, all marquee names. The top 100 corporates of India, the fact that they are coming on to the platform, they are patient with it, banks are patient with it, tells us that the problem that we have picked up to solve is the right problem to solve. And people are aware of it. Our bankers are aware of it. Our sourcing partners, our corporates are aware of it. And they are comfortable with the pace at which we are going. They would like the banks to pick up pace a little faster, but that's easier said than done because the banks will move at their own pace. We, as the exchange are the bridge. Our job is to keep this bridge ready. So that whenever the banks feel comfortable in doing business, the bridge is there, the corporates are there for them to pick up the business and do it. The numbers that we have in terms of the pipeline of INR 5,500 crores, INR 5,800 crores, getting that translated into getting those numbers distributed into the channel partners and vendors, that's what the focus will be. And the amalgamation and the simplification, which is there, that's over the next quarter, 1.5 quarters is what we are going to be focusing on. So we will exit FY '27 surely without all of these overhangs on us. So let me close with where I had started. This quarter, the stand-alone revenue and profits have more than doubled, okay, year-on-year and with the margin expanded. We have signed 5 new clients, including a 6 product platform win with one of the largest digital banks in the GCC. Our collections have improved very highly from 149 days in the past to 80 days right now. The pipeline closed is higher than it opened even after converting $15 million. That's important. And the structural work on the amalgamation and the PSB Xchange, that is moving forward on schedule. So that's what I leave you with that many of you think banking transformation, think Veefin, okay? So the annexure that we have here, it carries our statutory financial statements, capital amortization policies are there for you to reference. With that, I think let's open the floor, Purvangi. And I'm ready to take questions.

[Operator Instructions] First question is from the line of [ Vikas Goyal ].

Mr. Raja, just 1 or 2 questions from my side. I see that you have raised the debt at almost 15% to 16% of interest, whereas the equity yields are around 3% or something. So you could have increased equity itself rather than taking the debt at such a high cost, so wanted to understand that.

So let me answer -- I'll take a question at a time, Vikas, okay? So that I don't forget the question. And this is a very important question. Thanks for asking this, because I think this is a question in a lot of investors' mind. So you're absolutely right that debt is not the cheaper instrument on a simple mathematical comparison. Absolutely correct. But there are 3 reasons why we did this. The first is an equity raise has its own process. It's got a market timing. And there's a permanent dilution which happens with equity raise. With debt, I have debt when it is available, I can retire the debt. That is the reason why we picked it up. What it means is we have visibility today in terms of what our cash flows will look like based on our pipelines, based on the signings that we have, based on the revenue that we are already getting. So we are very comfortable that our cash flows will be able to take care of it. But we did not want to carry the debt indefinitely. If I would have issued shares, you're right that it would have been cheaper to get equity. But if I were to do that, then the upside which is going to come 2 years hence, I would then have to share it with those investors also. But the current investors who are there, they are according to us. They are better off with this debt because we can retire this debt over the next couple of years, and that is the plan. Our plan is to retire this debt over a period of time. And other thing what you would have seen is that to get this debt, we have -- the promoters have pledged their shares. So the existing shareholders have not needed to do any -- go through any dilution. We have taken the risk of pledging our shares because we believe in what we are doing. And based on that, we have allowed, we have taken the decision of going in for our debt, though short-term, it looks more expensive. But in the medium-term, it is better for all of us because the price in the market right now is not right. And I would not want to raise equity at this kind of pricing right now.

Okay. I mean, as I remember your last investor presentation, you said that most of the CapEx cycle is over and we are into a lazy period now. That's what the word I think you used.

Correct.

So what is the need for raising this INR 50 crores debt, because I don't see that much of the CapEx happening in future?

I'll explain that. Our business is chunky. So though our DSOs have come down, we continue doing 2 things. There's a continued investment which is happening on the product side, yes. But our revenues are chunky. So this is meant for tiding over the cash flow gaps or working capital gaps that we have. So this money is for that. The money is not meant for putting into a business or CapEx cycle from which we can't get out of. So you're absolutely right, our CapEx cycle this year is much lower than last year. However, we still require these working capital funds because my -- what I will end the year at versus what my year -- my quarter 1 is --- is not same. But when I'm doing my investment, when I'm doing my spends, they are nearly constant throughout the year. So my spends are constant, but my revenues are not constant. So I require -- this debt capital to come in to bridge that gap for the year.

Okay. And then another question, where does the Veefin win against the incumbents and where do you lose?

Veefin wins against the incumbents when it comes to tech. So our clients, our prospective clients, they love our tech architecture. They love the fact that they are able to get all of these things on one single architecture. They love the fact that tomorrow when they want to do a change or add replace any of their existing products, they can do so far easier with Veefin. So that's where we win. But where we would -- I would not say lose. But where we would fall short is when we are up against incumbents who have a 30-, 40-year history with clients having done this multiple times, we will fall short there. So that's where we bank on our supply chain lineage. That's where we bank on the fact that we have enterprise clients over the last so many years who we have serviced. Again, supply chain is a transaction banking product. The fact that we are able to take care of complex transaction banking product for our large banking clients should give them comfort. And I say, should give them comfort. So that is where we are slightly weaker than our competition. Pedigree -- pedigree of 40 years, we don't have that.

Okay. The last question, just you said the PSB Xchange, we have INR 26,000 crores things and where the approval is only for INR 5,800 crores, only 22%. How do you explain that? Why does this happen?

The banking. So that is -- as I said, we are a bridge. We are a bridge. Our job is to see that credit requests and credit providers should be able to talk through a common language, a common platform. This was never there. We have been able to bring that into play. But we can't influence a bank in the speed at which they will operate. The banks continue operating at the speed that they were operating even without this platform. And that is the reason why India has such a large credit gap. So we, as a platform, will never be able to take up the credit gap. But what we are taking care of is the ability of all of this request to be able to be surfaced out to the provider that itself was not there in the past. That is what we are doing. So what will happen and the way you should look at this is. Today, we have, as I said, 3 banks already live, 7 under integration. And I had said last time also, the day we have 10, 12 banks integrated on the platform, that is the inflection point. So the point in time when we have this on the platform is when there will be a race between the banks on who can do things faster. Today, there is no race. Today, there is no race for -- between the banks because there are 3 banks which are integrated. Once you have 10 banks integrated, the race will start. We ourselves are learning in terms of how we need to engage with the banks. And this is one thing that we have learned that banks need to have a sense of competition amongst them even for good quality deals. And we are talking of AAA corporates here for which also the banks take time. And this is the reality of the banking industry.

Next question is from the line of Aryan Gupta, individual investor. Due to no response, we move on to the next participant. Next question is from Kenil Modi from Nuvama Wealth.

Yes. Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Just a couple of questions from my side. The services business sit around at 20% of EBITDA margins. How do we see them evolving over the next 3 to 5 years based on the acquisitions that we have done?

They will remain similar. So we don't see a material difference in the EBITDA margins out there. So we should, from a modeling perspective, track that itself.

Okay. And yes, just a question around the debt. Which subsidiaries carry a INR 60 crores debt and whether the stand-alone business has provided any guarantees for it?

So INR 60 crores are between our other subsidiaries, which are your Infini, Nityo, those subsidiaries. And details of that are there in the consolidated statement. So we actually put that down out there. And yes, to your next -- what was the second question in terms of guarantees, you're asking, correct?

Yes.

Yes, we have guaranteed. So there is -- so Veefin has provided guarantees for the debt.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Aryan Gupta ], individual investor.

Yes. I had 2 questions. One of them is what triggers the invocation besides the payment defaults?

See, I think what you're asking about is regarding our pledge, okay? Now you have to understand that the pledge that has happened in these shares and this is -- thanks for this question. The pledge that has happened, there is no price link. So many people -- because I've received questions this morning. There is no price link to the invocation trigger, the shares that we have pledged. They are not linked to any price movement. So therefore, it is static in nature from that point of view. There are only 2 financial tests which are there, there are 2 covenants. One is on EBITDA, which has a ceiling of 3x and on DSL with a floor of 1.25x. And we are comfortable on both of them by a big margin. So there is no trigger as such.

Okay. The second question is in the amalgamation stage, we are at the fifth stage of the seventh. So what happens to the pledge trajectory if the NCLT slips?

NCLT, we don't see -- okay. So first point, we don't see any reason for NCLT slipping right now because we are at the final stage. As I said, the Chairman's report has also been submitted. Everything is clear. We just require some statutory NOCs, which are again like it's a matter of fact as a matter of process, which will happen. We don't see any issue in terms of that. But if it happens and if it gets delayed by a few months, so it gets delayed. But that is not in our control, okay?

Next question is from the line of [ Rahul Malpani ], individual investor.

Yes. Okay. So I have a couple of questions. So first is pipeline moved from $79.62 million to $80.13 million, essentially, the same is flat. Is the demand stalling?