Vend Marketplaces ASA (VENDA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning and welcome to the first session of our 29th Annual Communacopia Conference. I'm Lisa Yang, and I cover the European media Internet space here at Goldman Sachs. And I'm very delighted to have with me today, the CEO of Schibsted, Kristin Skogen Lund. Thank you very much, Kristin, again for being with us today. But before we start, we require to read aloud certain disclosures. Goldman Sachs agrees to hold this conference on the basis that no third party speaker will provide confidential or material nonpublic information. In addition, by attending this conference, you provide Goldman Sachs the right to record and redistribute the conference information. The views of third-party speakers do not necessarily reflect those of Goldman Sachs. We're also required to make certain disclosures in public appearances about Goldman Sachs's relationships with companies that we discuss. Disclosures relate to investment banking relationships, compensation received or 1% or more ownership. We're prepared to read aloud disclosures for any issue on request. However, these disclosures are available in our most recent reports, available to you as clients on our phone portals. Disclosures and updates to the disclosures are also available by ticker on the firm's public website. And also the views stated by non-Goldman Sachs personnel do not necessarily reflect those of Goldman Sachs. [Operator Instructions]

So with that, let's kick off. So Kristin, clearly, the last 18 months have been quite a significant period for Schibsted. You have the Adevinta spinoff, the impact of the coronavirus crisis and then the recent deals in Finland and Denmark. So in that context, maybe you can share with us how you're thinking about the key strategic priorities for the group into H2 and next year. And also highlight how you and the rest of the management team will allocate your time between, on one hand, running the day-to-day operations; on the other hand, integrating the deals in Denmark and Finland and fairly sort of managing your sort of relationship with Adevinta, especially with the eBay transaction.

Sure. Yes, I mean it's been a really exciting time, and I think we have a lot of exciting things ahead as well. So we -- the Adevinta ownership is obviously very important. We -- I think we're going to have an exciting partnership with eBay and -- as 2 anchor investors, we have an important role in support the integration of the 2 businesses and make sure that the new Adevinta is as fit as possible to take on further growth and consolidation to realize the synergies, et cetera. So as you know, I am on the Board of Adevinta, and I will continue to be so. So for me, personally, that is an important area of responsibility. When it comes to the business here, obviously, integrating our Finland and Denmark on the Nordic marketplaces side is interesting. And going from being a business in 2 countries to actually being a real Nordic footprint will change that business somehow. We will not build too much overhead around it, but we need to staff it up a little bit. We need to -- I think we already have a very competent team in Finland in place, both with some old and new forces. We were very happy to have Jussi Lystimaki back as a country manager there. In Denmark, it's a bit more premature still since the deal is not closed, and we are in a hands-off mode for the time being. We haven't really been able to do very much. But we have, of course, started the planning for how to integrate also there. But I think for that Nordic marketplace team, it will be important to ensure a smooth transition and integration. It will be important to make sure now that we really leverage the size and the competence, the motor vertical is an obvious area for that, share best practice, joint efforts when it comes to moving into transactional models, et cetera, et cetera. And of course, some of our new concepts can now easily be launched into 4 markets instead of 2. So that's another synergy in effect that will come from it. So that is a really important area. I would say, of course, we follow it very closely, but it's handled by Christian and the team in Nordic Marketplaces with, of course, great support from our headquarter teams, especially within data and technology. And then the other priorities, I would -- I think you can count them into 3 main strategic priorities going forward that we're looking at. One is the subscription opportunity, comes out of our News Media business, but we really want to keep growing. We have a strong growth there, but we want to see if we can, let's say, expand the monetization potential on our attractive subscription base that we have stemming out of the media business. The second area is financial services. As you know, we do have Lendo, but we also see that we can expand financial services into our ecosystem, in general, smart payment solutions, for example, when we're going transactional, things like that. And we have some venture investments within financial services that we find interesting, and we still see a lot of potential within Lendo. I mean not just in terms of geographic expansion, but we now got the PSD2 license, so we can also expand the product offering within Lendo. And then, finally, we have what we call e-commerce enablement. It's it is based on the rather strong footprint we have in our fast-growing distribution business here in Norway. We hope to be able to expand further, and we also have some other assets that play into that, for example, Prisjakt being a price comparison service. And we might look, of course, to partnerships with other players to make sure we have a full value chain to offer in terms of attractive e-commerce enablement. So I would add those up as our main things right now.

Great. It looks like you have a very busy 6 to 12 months ahead. I'm just thinking, though, before we dig into some of the various segments, obviously, COVID-19 has had a big impact on the group. It looks like most of your businesses have recovered pretty quickly when we look at the second quarter results. So without going, obviously, into detail into current trend in Q3, could you maybe just talk about the latest trends, maybe these visitings, traffic that you're seeing across your various businesses, especially, I think, within Nordic marketplace and especially I think within jobs, which I think is the area where I think investors seem to be a bit more concerned? And I guess the more longer-term question is, what do you think of the more permanent changes that you think will be coming out of this crisis?

Yes. I mean high level, some of the main KPIs are actually quite positive in terms of usage, in terms of engagement, time spent on our sites, frequency of visits, all of that is looking good across both media and marketplaces. Subscriptions and user payment is doing really well. Advertising, obviously, took a huge hit in the beginning, has recovered somewhat, but it's still weaker and somewhat volatile but far material than we fared when COVID first hit. Within marketplaces, motors and real estate keeping up well as well as generalists. But jobs suffering has recovered somewhat from the very drastic decline that happens straight away, but it's still below and quite substantially below last year. And travel, of course, which is not such a large part of it, but obviously, is suffering a lot. And given how much it's suffering, it also shows a bit in our figures. So I think that's maybe a general way of summarizing it. But all in all, a much better recovery than we fared back in March.

Great. So I guess, maybe one question on the Adevinta, who was also been going through quite a big transaction with eBay. I'm just wondering, actually, how this proposed transaction with eBay changed your thinking around your longer-term ownership of Adevinta, which you have been basically reducing with the perceived -- the spinoff kind of slowing down a little bit as well and given that I think Adevinta should become more liquid going forward as well, like, does it make it more likely that you might consider selling down even more down the road?

Right. I mean I think it's important to see that this is almost like a culmination of a very, very long-term strategy that actually started 20 years ago when we established Finn. And then the decision to spin up Adevinta was precisely to enable this type of strategic move, which we now have seen has -- is value-creating in that -- creative, sorry, and that the industrial logic makes sense. And it would have been hard to do this if Adevinta was still part of the Schibsted umbrella. So I believe that's been sort of a consistent strategy all along. And we have also been saying that we would be willing to let the majority ownership go if the strategic opportunity was the right one, and I think the eBay deal is that opportunity. So that's why we did it. We are very committed to stay on as anchor investor in this together with eBay. We have built up a great trust relationship and chemistry with eBay along this process. I believe we will be capable of doing this in a good way in a partnership going forward, so we're very motivated by that and very committed to it. Having said that, it will be natural for us to sell down a small stake to finance some of the levers that we have now taken on, particularly the bridge loan connected to the Denmark acquisition. And then I would say that a lot of the in-market consolidation that we would want to do could probably be financed by our normal means in terms of -- as we will become more deleveraged, and I think we will be able to take on more debt going forward. If there is a larger thing, Hemnet, for example, would probably require that we sold some to finance. But then again, that's very hypothetical at this point. And any sell-down would have to be very well justified because it would need to be an investment opportunity that's better than Adevinta currently, and Adevinta is a very attractive asset. So those are not easy to find.

Yes. That's for sure. So I think maybe I can move on to Nordic Marketplaces, and obviously, a lot of focus on the recent deals you've done in Finland and Denmark. Maybe if you can just maybe help us understand how classifieds monetization in Finland and Denmark compared to Norway and Sweden, for instance? And where do you see the main areas of opportunity to improve this monetization? And I guess, digging into more into eBay and Oikotie, how do you think where they are positioned in their respective market as opposed to where Finn and Blocket are positioned between Norway and Sweden?

So very roughly, you could say that Norway is a bit in its own league in monetization, really high; and Sweden and Denmark, fairly same level; and then Finland is quite far behind. And the reason for that in Finland is that the market has been divided between 2 main players. So you haven't had sort of the monolithic network effects that you see in other markets, hence, reducing pricing power. I think it's also fair to say that within Finland, although both Oikotie and Etuovi are very good sites, they are owned by media companies for which classifieds is not their core business. And I think it means that they have sometimes has some different priorities. For example, advertising has been quite incentivized towards packages corresponding with their media business, things like that. So I believe that coming in with our experience and the fact that classifieds is a core business for us, and we have a playbook that we have rolled out into many markets before, I believe that there should be potential for us to improve the consumer offering and, hence, gain pricing power. However, Oikotie has a competitor in Etuovi, so it will take some time because you will certainly need to establish the consumer proposition. I mean, you can't just jack up prices. When you have a competitor like that, I mean you really need to prove yourself and increase consumer value. It's an obvious goal for us to become the clear #1 in the real estate vertical in Finland. Right now, Oikotie is a very close #2. So that is maybe the most of this value creation opportunity. Within jobs, they are leading in Oikotie, but -- and as you know, jobs is in a bit of a difficult state right now with corona, but also there, it should be possible to increase monetization. But of course, it's also very attractive to see how you can use the big traffic and brand recognition that we have in Tori, the generalist, and combine that with the monetization opportunities within the new verticals that we now have access to via Oikotie. I think that combination can be really powerful. So we are hopeful for the Finnish market. We also -- we are number -- a bit of a distant #2 in motors from Tori. And of course, with a bit of a longer time frame, we also have an ambition to grow our position within the motor vertical. Coming to Denmark, it's a bit premature to talk about that market because, as you know, it's not closed. And although we have done a high-level due diligence and all of that, our ability to really discuss and access it has been -- is, for the time being, a bit limited until we get to closing. But Denmark, strong generalist and motor position. So, of course, you could say that maybe there will be, in the future, opportunities to expand into either the job or the real estate vertical or both. It's too early to say if that's feasible or not, but it's sort of -- it's an obvious one on paper, at least. The eBay business in Denmark is well run. It's not like it's a lot of low-hanging fruits that they haven't already picked. But I really believe in best practice sharing and maybe combining concepts across the Nordics within motors. And Denmark has come -- eBay Denmark has come quite far in the transactional model in the generalist, which I also believe is an interesting thing for us to develop further.

That's a very interesting. So you mentioned, Denmark, I understand that the deal hasn't closed yet, so there's limited amount that you can really tell us about it. But it seems like it's a bit more monetized, but it's also more developed in areas like advertising. So how do you think the broader Schibsted portfolio could theoretically benefit from that proposed acquisition in Denmark, especially in the areas that you mentioned, maybe shipping payments, transactional and I think...

Yes. I mean I think eBay, I mean, they are really -- they're strong and good in motors, and you will find that capacity within the Danish organization. They are strong and generalist and transactional. And in general, I would say eBay has come further than we have in terms of the use -- smart use of advertising, technologies and integrations. And then we have something to learn from them there as well, which will benefit us. So a lot of good things coming our way from that transaction.

And speaking about the transaction model, obviously, a lot of players, I mean, Adevinta and yourself talking about moving more towards a transaction model, which really looks like it's sort of the next evolution for the online classifieds marketplace model. What do you think is so attractive about this transactional model? Like, why you -- is everyone talking about it right now? And how do you see the opportunity for someone like Schibsted more particularly?

It is simply because by -- because in our current model, we -- although it's very -- that's very attractive too with high margins, but you actually address a very small part of the value in a total transaction because it's basically listing -- ad listings based, right? If you position yourself to handle a larger part of the transaction, it's simply that the share of the value that becomes your addressable market is so much larger. That's the main attractiveness in it. And you could use an example with a next bill concept that we acquired in Norway, which is basically a C2B car auction. It's -- yes, it's a bit more costly and time-consuming to run it and operate it, but the ARPU is about between 10 and 15x larger per car. And then once you have auctioned that car out to a dealer, you might also get that car back into your regular system because the dealer will then list that car again to sell it, right? So you just -- it's basically a very efficient way of increasing your addressable market.

Great. I know you usually don't give -- don't like giving guidance, but I mean, you do have a revenue guidance in place of 8% to 12% mid- to long-term revenue growth. And I'm just wondering, with the recent sort of acquisitions you made in Finland and Denmark, do you still think that sort of growth rate is achievable?

Right. So what we say is that we do uphold that guiding mid to long term. Of course, right now, everything is a bit of a turmoil because of the COVID situation. And it's also a fact that, like I tried to explain earlier in terms of gaining pricing power in Finland, for example, I mean, it is going to take some time before we can materialize that monetization potential, so -- and it's hard for me to say exactly how long that's going to take. So the way I would look at it is that maybe in the short term, it's maybe a bit less visible. But both are incumbent development in Finland and Blocket as well as the more mid- to long-term potential in the new acquisitions, I think, justified that we uphold that guidance longer term.

Great. Maybe we can move on to News Media. And obviously, you used to be the CEO of that segment. I mean what is the opportunity that you see in News Media do you think the market is sort of missing? I guess you talked about, for instance, bundling, newspapers and other services. Could you maybe just talk a little bit more about the overall strategy there, and how maybe COVID-19 might have impacted your thinking about this business?

Yes. I mean I have to say that I'm actually extremely pleased with our media business and the way they handled the COVID situation, I mean, because that looked pretty bleak for a while. And just the way everyone worked like crazy because we never had more demand for our services ever. I mean we set new traffic records every day, and of course, all that is happening remotely. I think -- so I'm just very impressed by the energy and fighting spirit in that organization, which is great. I would say, in the broader business terms, that it's doing very well in terms of user revenue in basically all our different titles, both the subscription-based ones but also the VG and the Aftonbladet and more tabloid titles or single copy titles. So I'm very hopeful for the long-term sustainability of that because I believe we will manage to become what we say digitally sustainable, that we're not dependent upon paper anymore and that we will have a sufficient base in our user payment side, subscription side that we can finance the editorial costs, which is really what it's about, right? The cost discipline is really strong in addition to all the measures taken in connection with COVID. We are also running a cost program. I think that's being executed very efficiently. And you saw that the News Media is actually delivering higher margins now than -- in Q2 than they did in Q1, and I think that's quite an accomplishment when you know the hit we have had from advertising. In terms of the advertising side, it's -- I believe, we are doing what we can to be an attractive national alternative. As you know, we run a -- we are trying not to be too dependent upon Google, although, of course, we have some programmatic business with them, et cetera. And I -- maybe I can say that I hope that more and more players can see that it makes sense to have an alternative and to have that independence, and maybe we could gain some strength from more players wanting to sort of be part of that type of system. I mean maybe we could create even more interesting advertising products than we're currently able to. But there is still quite a lot of innovation happening. We have a new product, for example, cover all of Norway within 24 hours that we launched in COVID. And it's had great success. So it's still possible to improve and innovate in advertising.

Great. So I mean, given the business is actually doing well and probably doing better than we expected, how do you think about the role of News Media within the broader Schibsted growth? I mean is this something that you'll still keep -- keen to keep as a whole? Or there are certain parts that you think you can maybe dispose of at some point?

Right. Yes. I also -- I should have mentioned that we're also doing innovation in terms of sound and live pictures and writers -- sports writers and things like that. I should have mentioned that. So we also invest in media. It's not all about cost planning. Yes, I mean, media's role is -- it's still about half of our revenue and half of our employees. So although it's a small part of the financial sum of the parts, it's still a large part of our company. And it's, of course, our tradition is where we came from it's a very important part of the purpose of the Tinius Trust, our main shareholder. So media is more than just the business area in Schibsted, I think is fair to say. And I also believe it's played a very important role throughout history. I mean, we launched the classifieds on the back of media traffic. We have launched financial services on the back of media traffic and integration. So I mean, so the media position helps build the other stuff that is now more -- seen as more financially attractive. And I would also say that we are hopeful for the potential in these frequent consumer interactions, and that strong consumer base that we have in media, we believe there is value to that. But having said that, we have always been super careful never to cross-subsidize it. We're not allowing media to be a drain on our cash. And they also have a very clear understanding that they need to be economically independent, and that means being digitally sustainable within that too long.

And I guess I have a question for, then, the growth and financial services segment. I think you mentioned that you might consider streamlining the next portfolio and, more particularly, to focus on financial services and e-commerce enablement. Can you maybe just talk about where you are in the process? How do you think about the shape of that growth in financial service portfolio in a 3- to 5-year view?

Yes. So we want to give, let's say, better transparency, whatever I should call it, to the next portfolio. And I think, yes, it will, as you say, consist of a financial services arm. And I guess I described a bit earlier the different parts of that, that we're looking at and the e-commerce enablement. Then we will keep our venture investments. We do believe it's important to us, both to secure some future opportunities, but it's also an important way of learning and being in traction with the entrepreneurial community. So we will continue the venture activity. Then we have lots of different companies in the next portfolio today that do not necessarily fit within any of those categories. And then we plan to either divest or to -- some of them, it will make sense to merge back into the news media or the marketplace business if they have very clear characteristics still fitting into that. So that's what we plan to do and, hopefully, give more, let's say, visibility to the values that we have in the next business area.

Great. And you mentioned earlier that one of the strategic priorities of the next few months will be developing Lendo, and I think you have recently obtained a PS2D (sic) [ PSD2 ] license. So can you maybe just talk about what does that license bring you? How do you think about the expansion of [indiscernible] Lendo into 2021 and sort of investments that might be required to accelerate your expansion there?

Right. So basically, what that license does is that it allows us to access certain -- access and handle certain information, for example, bank account information and things like that. And that, in turn, enable us to create more products than we're currently able to offer and develop, right? So it means that we can build services that will be relevant for the consumer in more situations than where we currently are with Lendo, and it means that we can expand the product portfolio. And yes, which will be a very good thing. And then again, we've been very focused towards the consumer loan segment. We don't really need to limit ourselves to that. I mean it's a very efficient aggregator, and we can apply that to more types of financial products than what we do today. In terms of customer segments, we have launched it for a small business in Sweden, which is going -- it's growing well from a low base, but it has a good growth trajectory. And that is, of course, something that we'll look to expand to the other markets. I guess it's no secret that we're struggling in Finland. Norway is looking somewhat better. And then we see great success in Denmark, which is interesting, given that we also now will have other presence in Denmark, so -- and Sweden is stable and strong. So I'm hopeful for the potential in that.

Great. Maybe I have a couple of questions on capital allocation before I take questions from the audience. [Operator Instructions] So maybe, Kristin, I mean, just to come back to the recent deals in Finland and Denmark. Can you maybe just remind us how you finance them? When do you think you can come back to your sort of original leverage target, which are following those deals?

Yes. So Finland was -- it was debt financed, and it brought our leverage up to about 2.5, which is actually a pretty good range. And then, of course, the Denmark acquisition was a bit exceptional, and it'll happen at the same time, as you know. So we secure that by doing a bridge loan and had great response, actually, for that from the bank. So that was good. And we have -- in the deal with eBay, we have a 3% sell down that we are allowed to do that's not covered by any restrictions or anything like that, and that's more than sufficient to cover that bridge loan. It actually gives us even some added flexibility. So -- and after the 3 months lockup after the closing, then we can execute that. But we don't have to do it straight away because we have some time also before we need to repay it. So I would say our financial situation is really good, actually, and we have -- we will also -- and our EBITDA situation is stronger than we expected just a few months back. So our ability to take on new debt will probably be stronger than the scenarios we laid out earlier this year. So we will have a good capacity financially. And of course, we will have the Adevinta holding, which is a huge source of funds, of course, but we will be very diligent not to waste any of that on opportunities that are not even more attractive than Adevinta. And as I said earlier, they're not that easy to find.

Sure. And I guess given the share force performance of both Adevinta and Schibsted, clearly, the market has taken really well the recent announced transactions. How does that change your thinking around sort of your future capital allocation, both in terms of M&A versus the dividend and like, your buybacks? Do you think, given again, the market is clearly willing to pay more for those acquisitions, does that mean you would likely to favor more one over the other?

Well, I think I mean, I have to say that I did find the -- or we did find the reactions this summer as encouraging. I mean, certainly, it was, and we were very happy about that. And we were also very happy on behalf of eBay because they chose us instead of a cash offer, and I'm very happy that, that was so well received and value creating also on their side. So that's -- I'm very happy about that. But in terms of allocation, going forward, yes, we believe that sensible in-market consolidation in the Nordics, especially within marketplaces, will probably be well-received, and we will prioritize that. We will put some funds into the strategic efforts of e-commerce enablement, financial services and subscriptions, but those are fairly limited sums compared to some of the larger M&A opportunities that we have. And we still have an issue of discount in our share, which we are, of course, monitoring very carefully. And if there are smart ways for us to alleviate that, we will -- that will also be a priority for us going forward.

Great. I'm just going to take one question that we have from the audience, which relates to the classifieds or the marketplace model. Could you maybe talk about the threat of Facebook Marketplace? I think they entered probably the Nordics a few years ago. Have you seen any impact? Like -- and I think following on that question, what do you think of the potential competitive threats that you're seeing emerging in most of the markets where you operate and where Adevinta, I guess, is also operating?

Yes. I mean Facebook Marketplace is certainly a formidable competitor and with huge muscles and data assets, et cetera, so we'd never take that lightly. I think it's fair to say that some of the worst scenarios we foresaw some 5 years back have not materialized. Their share is -- it's reasonably stable. We do see that they gain some ground in certain pockets of -- especially some of these transactional hyper vertical markets. And we are monitoring that very carefully and always on our toes to make sure that our services are preferred and even better than theirs, which is constantly a struggle. But it also -- it sharpens us, right, to have that competition always there. When it comes to -- I mean, I have to say that we also work on the public policy front because although competition is great, it must be fair, and we want to also monitor and make sure that we are not -- and the market, as such, do not see unjust practices. So that's important, to be vigilant by area. Then, of course, now we have the news that Amazon is entering Sweden, and probably in due course, Norway and Denmark. And we are, of course, making careful scenarios for the potential effects of that. And what we can do is to position ourselves accordingly and make sure we just become even better so that we are a national alternative that will be attractive going forward as well.

Great. And what about the emergence of those new, I would say, more asset-heavy light transaction models especially, I think, in the car like Kazoo or [ Auto One ] those type of businesses. Do you think that Schibsted will have to become more, I would say, asset heavy as well?

We are reluctant to becoming asset heavy. I mean there is a lot of financial risk in that. But we have, for example, circumvented a little bit in the next bill model because there is an auction system where the owner takes it to a test site and then there's an auction, but the dealer takes it off the consumer or the seller directly never enters our books. So that is a way of actually doing the transactional model without being asset heavy. And that's a much-preferred model for us to do it that way. We have a lot of respect for asset heavy. I mean that can go really wrong. You need to be very careful with that.

Great. Another question from the audience, I think, is a follow-up on what you said earlier about your dependence on Google for traffic. And I guess, could you maybe talk about how you think about that sort of dependence? Do you see that as a risk, or -- in the longer term? And how big is the priority for you to address that reliance?

Right. So we are on the center previously at Nexus platform. So we are -- our main advertising stack or technology is not Google, but we use -- we are part of the Google universe for certain programmatic offerings, et cetera. So we have gone a bit the other way. I mean we're not dependent upon Google. I mean, to some extent, for the programmatic, but we're actually not. But basically, what we see is that some of the other players who have gone all in on Google, they feel a certain frustration because there is a lack of visibility in terms of how much -- what is -- it's almost like you're caught off a little bit from what you actually sell, how much, what is the real -- what is the gross sale, what is the commission, what -- and the data in terms of how do you actually perform is not -- there is not full visibility around that. And it's -- that is a difficult situation to be in, and you become very, very dependent upon Google as one player for such a large part of your business. And basically, what we sense is that several players are becoming less and less satisfied with being in that situation. And I just think that, that might increase the attractiveness of wanting to strengthen an alternative platform or stack, if you like. I can't -- this is not a claim. It's just more of a sense. But I believe that it's been a bit tough to stand up to it and not just go Google, which was the obvious and easy thing to do. But I'm quite happy that we have stood on that because I believe it's serving us well now in having much better control of our business than we otherwise would have.

Great. And maybe one last question from for me as I think we're pushing the end of this session. I mean as we're talking about Google and advertising, and obviously, display has been more or less of a challenge for many classifieds companies. I think that EBIT classifieds' overall exposure to advertising seems to be relatively high. I think they experience in Google 30%, 34%, 34.5%. Is that also the case in Denmark? And how do you see this? Do you see that as rather as a risk, as an opportunity? And if it's risk, how do you turn that into an opportunity for Schibsted?

Yes. So Denmark is actually a bit lower than the eBay average. So Denmark is around 25%, which is, compared to Finland, Blocket, still a bit on the high side, but I wouldn't say alarmingly so. And again, as I said, I also think we have things to learn from eBay because they have handled their advertising business well. And that might -- that's also a positive reason for why their share is that high because they've actually been quite good at it, right? So I believe also we have things to learn and that the Danish ratio is certainly not alarming to us.

Great. I think we are coming towards the end of the session. So again, Kristin, I wanted to really thank you for joining us today for this first session. And thank you, everyone, for joining.

Thank you, Lisa.

Thank you.