Veolia Environnement SA (VIE.PA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

The magic of urban heating from the plant through the city pipes straight to this very building where we are here today. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome. Thank you to all of you present here today in Poznan and to everyone connected remotely. Thank you for joining us for this Thema dedicated to new urban energy. Now as with previous editions, the aim here is to connect group level strategy with operational realities to give you all a clear view of Veolia's innovation capacity and its competitive position. Let's have a quick look at the program. First, Estelle Brachlianoff will outline her strategic vision to expand Veolia's longstanding and unique position in the European heating landscape. Then we will hear from Emmanuelle Menning for the financial and structural foundations. Next, Pavel Mícka, will guide us through Poznan's transformation pathway, showing us how the city is using heating networks as a decarbonization lever. And then we will explore how territorial cooperation supports this transition with Jakub Patalas and Philippe Guitard, alongside the mayor of Poznan that we are happy to count among us today. And finally, Estelle will return with our key takeaways before we open the floor to a Q&A. That's it for the program. Let us begin. Please help me in welcoming Estelle Brachlianoff, Chief Executive Officer of Veolia.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Poznan. And now you may probably wonder why did we fly you all the way from London, Paris, Barcelona, Madrid and beyond to brave the Polish cold because it looks like it's going to be snowing in a few minutes. Well, as you may have seen, we announced a major acquisition in the U.S. last Friday in hazardous waste, one of our key boosters. So -- but today, we are not going to talk about boosters. We're going to talk about strongholds. Because at Veolia, we love our boosters, but we absolutely love our strongholds, too. And it is the combination of both, which defines our strategy and makes us who we are. And I guess Poznan is a perfect example of that stronghold in action. This city is in the middle of a remarkable transformation. For decades, Poznan rely on coal to keep its people warm through harsh winters. But the city made a bold decision to fundamentally reimagine the future of energy without coal. And what we are inaugurating today is proof that this vision is real. By 2030, with just 5 years from now, Poznan will have 100% coal-free urban heating network. This isn't aspirational, it's already on the way. So today, you've understood we are not just innovating infrastructure. We are sharing a blueprint for how Europe reinvents its energy city by city and network by network, building resilient from local resources, proving that security, affordability and sustainability can go hand in hand. So let me take you through that journey. And let me start by taking you back a moment we all remember, February 2022. The world changed overnight. When the war in Ukraine began, energy, something we've taken for granted for so long, suddenly became fragile, uncertain. And the crisis revealed a hard truth. We had built our prosperity on foundation we didn't fully control. But crisis clarify. And what emerged was a new energy equation for our clients. They need local energy production so that they can see, touch and control. They need affordability because energy poverty is real. They need stability, which is predictable cost and predictable supply. They need energy efficiency because the cheapest energy isn't -- is the energy we don't waste. They need flexibility as well, systems that adapt to changing demand and intermittent renewables. And they need, of course, decarbonization because the climate crisis hasn't paused while we dealt with the energy crisis. And those cannot be competing priorities, they all must be delivered simultaneously. So where does Veolia fit into this new landscape? Let me paint the picture. In 2024, Veolia generated EUR 45 billion of revenues. We are known, obviously, for water, for waste, for environmental services, but many people don't realize energy represents already 25% of our business. This is EUR 11 billion. And another EUR 1 billion on top in energy revenue from our waste and wastewater businesses. Every year, we sell mainly heat. This is 51 terawatt hours, sorry, of heat, which is enough to warm 7 million people through the cold winters. That's equivalent of heating every single household in Berlin and Madrid combined. And as a byproduct, we sell electricity as well, 13 terawatt hours of electricity, equivalent to powering 1 million people. And we've made deliberate choices about who we are and who we are not. We don't build massive centralized power plants. What we do is this. We work at the scale of a community, a city, a district, an industrial park, a building. We focus on urban heating networks, which is in a way the circulatory systems of cities energy. We develop bioenergy and renewable solutions, turning waste into a resource. We create flexibility solutions, helping grid balance and adapt. We deliver energy efficiency for buildings, ensuring there is not a single megawatt hour wasted. And what truly sets us apart, we are the only player who can orchestrate all this solution together as a complete kind of ecosystem. When our competitors usually do one thing well, we do everything integrated, kind of an ecosystem where nothing is wasted, where local solution create local resilience. That's who we are, new urban energy specialists. Now today, we're going to focus on one of our favorite strongholds, urban heating networks. Let me show you why this sector is kind of having its moment as we speak. And let me start with the numbers that surprises most people. In Europe, 50% of all energy consumed is heat, not electricity, heat. This is warm for homes, hot water, industrial processes, half of everything. Yet 3/4 of this heat still comes from fossil fuel. The good news, we've already made progress, but what remains to be done represents a massive opportunity going forward. And regulation is accelerating this shift. I'm thinking of, for instance, the EU Renewable Energy directives as well as the U.K.'s Energy Act, just to mention a few, all pushing hard in the same direction. And the targets are breathtaking, 17 million additional European citizen connected by 2030 in addition of the 80 million, which already are, plus efficiency standards, which are rising dramatically. This is transformation at scale and it's happening now. So what makes us claim the leadership in this space? Let me tell you what makes us different. First, our scale and local presence. Heating networks are not just infrastructure, they are relationship, they are proximity, they are responsiveness. Think with the weather like we have today, when something goes wrong at 3:00 a.m. in the morning, in the winter, we are there. Second, our public procurement expertise. We understand cities, local authorities, hospitals, universities. In a way, at Veolia, we speak the language of public service. Third, and this is crucial, our ability to combine Veolia activities. Because we are in water, we can tap into wastewater treatment plant as heat resources. Because we are in waste, we can access to wood, biogas, wasted heat. Fourth, our efficiency expertise. We create value through transformation, taking underperforming assets and making them perform. And fifth, our decarbonization know-how. We specialize in core phaseout, building new plants and operating them because, of course, you cannot stop one whilst you're dealing with the other one. We ensure service continuity. And very few energy players can claim this at the scale we do. So to put it simply, we're not just energy providers, we are urban energy transformers. And let me show you now how we've built this leadership position over the years. We've started in France in basically the '80s, learning the business and developing our expertise. But we've understood clearly quickly the real transformation would happen in Central and Eastern Europe, where cities were built around massive district heating, serving millions of people, but running on coal. So we moved east, and we grew through different pathways. First, privatization. When cities opened their network to private operators, we were there. I'm thinking of Warsaw in 2011, the largest heating network in the EU or more recently in Tashkent in 2022, our first concession in Central Asia, serving 1 million people. Yes, we're speaking big numbers here. Second, decarbonization. Cities that wanted to phase out coal, but didn't know how. And that's Poznan in 2002, where we stand today or Prague in 2016. Each time we took on the challenge of transforming networks, while keeping the heat flowing. Today, we operate around 500 heating networks worldwide. We serve 7 million customers. Roughly, this is -- 9%, sorry, of all connected Europeans. And this didn't happen by accident. We built all those assets city by city and one promise delivered after one promise delivered. And look at the map we've built over those years. Each dot represents a Veolia owned or operated district heating network from Harbin to Tashkent, from Warsaw to Prague. But I wish this map were a film rather than a picture because you would see how the footprint is growing and still is through different dynamics. Privatization, as I already mentioned, where government bring in specialists to make aging infrastructure more efficient, leveraging from the latest technology. This is as well expansion because existing network grow as the city grow. This is more district, more building, more connections. And we have a few greenfields as well, new networks built from scratch in developing districts and we're 21st century from day 1. Three pathways, but all growing simultaneously. And here is the crucial point on every single of the dots on the map, we are locally embedded. We employ local people, we source local fuel, we serve local communities. So now let me go through the foundation and where the success is and the key promises on which we've built this portfolio. Efficiency, of course. We operate at 88% average efficiency across our portfolio. Some of our networks achieved even 94% compared to an average of 75% in Europe. That means less heat waste, lower cost, better performance and lower CO2. Security because we rely on diversified local sourcing of fuel. I estimate that in Europe, it's 400 gigawatts of untapped resource that we can tap into, enough to cover the consumption of a country with over 50 million people. That's resilient built in. Affordability, of course, is key. We protect customers against price volatility because when gas price spiked in 2022, our customers with diversified local sources were largely insulated. Sustainability, because we use decarbonized energy. I'm talking about biomass, about waste heat, geothermal, solar, heat pumps. Systematically, we're trying to replace fossil fuel by those. And increasingly, flexibility. We provide flexibility to electrical grids and balancing intermittent renewables with dispatchable combined heat and power. And we are leveraging AI quite a lot to optimize network performance in real time to predict demand, to manage loads and to maximize efficiency. And everything I've just mentioned is not aspiration. Those are the solutions we are deploying right now. And let me be a bit more specific about a few items I just mentioned, starting with decarbonization because this is not a slogan for us. It is a track record already. Look at those 3 projects on the map. Braunschweig, Germany. We converted a coal plant, which dated from the cold war to biomass and natural gas or calling them [indiscernible] in Czech Republic, where we shifted to refuse-derived fuel and biomass, working as well with local team to retrain them to these type of new technologies because you don't operate the boilers exactly in the same way as you used to when it was coal. And here, Poznan, the largest decarbonization project in our portfolio, where we are transforming a coal-dependent system into a hybrid model, natural gas, biomass, wet heat recovery. And of course, that's going to be detailed more in a minute. Across these 3 projects, we've achieved emission reduction between minus 45% and minus 60%. This is remarkable. And we did that without any interruption in the service, not for 1 hours, families stayed warm. We've invested EUR 700 million in this project since 2018. And by the end of the decade, this is EUR 1.6 billion cumulative. Now some may think decarbonization means sacrificing return. We proved them wrong. This project deliver returns above 10%. Good for the planet, great for the business, profitable decarbonization. That's the Veolia's model. And we go even further. We combine our businesses to create energy security. As I just alluded to, we are not just energy, we are water, waste and energy. And the combination unlocks what our competitors cannot match. London, Southwark, we hit 5,000 households with energy from waste facilities we operate. Braunschweig, our plant runs on 100% waste wood from Veolia sorting plant nearby. So one business fits another one. But at best, we produce heat and coal from wastewater treatment plants we operate. This is sewage network hitting hospitals and universities. And here in Poznan, we capture waste heat from the Volkswagen foundry. Industrial heat, which would otherwise escape into the air, warms 6,500 homes. Local energy for local needs. That's resilient, that's sovereignty and that's security. Now let's move on to efficiency because, of course, this is as well what we deliver, and it goes hand-in-hand with affordability. We optimize energy efficiency across the entire value chain, production, distribution and the combination of both. In production, we maximize output and minimize losses using digital tools and AI. This is cogeneration, smart monitoring, intelligent fuel management and so on and so forth. In distribution, AI helps us optimize heat sources and allocate heat to the right place at the right time. As system becomes more decentralized, this becomes essential. But here is where combining production and distribution creates real magic. We can store heat. Have a look this afternoon at the tower behind our plants. This is not just one tower. This is 24,000 cubic meters of water, storing 800-megawatt hour of energy. To store the same energy, we would need, if we were to go for electric batteries, several hectares of land, not to mention the massive resources to produce those batteries. Here, everything fits in one tower. That's the power of thermal storage. And let me tell you now about a tale of 2 cities that we are building the future at now. Görlitz and Zgorzelec. You probably never heard of them, I'm guessing. One is in Germany, Mr. Mayor has, but of course, you know, like for the rest of the audience, maybe you haven't. One is in Germany, the other one in Poland. And they sit on the opposite side of the Neisse river. Today, we are connecting them. We're building a connection between the 2 networks, 1 heating system crossing the border, connecting 2 countries. And what's great about this project is we are taking decarbonization a step ahead. We're talking here of gas exits. How are we doing it? Local and sustainable biomass, heat pumps, solar thermal with storage and e-boilers and waste heat to fill the gaps, a living laboratory, a proof of concept. And we have a blueprint, we aim at scaling across Europe. And that brings me to the announcement I'm particularly excited about. You've understood we've spent 3 decades transforming and extending district heating networks across Europe. We've proven it works. We've proven it's profitable. Now we are packaging everything we've learned into one comprehensive offer. Today, we are launching ecothermal grid. We know how to identify local energy sources and turn them into heat. We know how to optimize network to the highest standard using the most recent technology. We do it every day in our own network. Now we want to make this expertise available to those who need it, not only for our own network, but for any city or any campus as well. And not only for large scale, but small and medium-sized city as well. So what does it do? For existing network, keep your pipes, keep your network, only change the fuel. Geothermal, biomass, wet heat, biogas, same infrastructure, zero disruption, clean heat. And for new districts, new developments, such as campuses or airports built from scratch, 100% renewable from day 1, AI optimized, flexible, clean heat from the start. The opportunity here, EUR 4 billion addressable market. Our target is to reach EUR 350 million additional turnover by 2030. And I'm pleased to announce we've already secured a first step in the U.K. with a cumulated EUR 1 billion pipeline and already great wins, including the Wellcome Genome Cambridgeshire Campus. So let me bring all this together now. Our 2030 ambition is clear, become the #1 player in urban heating in Europe, not #2, #1, achieve coal exit across all our European operations, zero coal, that's a commitment, as well as generate EUR 350 million in revenue from ecothermal grid. In other words, lead heating network transformation across the continents. How? Through our winning formula, unmatched assets, innovative offers, local energy sources and the unique ability to combine our wastewater and energy business. No competitor can replicate this. The challenges are clear, security of supply, decarbonization, efficiency, flexibility and affordability. The energy transition isn't someday. It's happening now, and it's here in Poznan. Thank you very much. [Presentation]

Thank you so much, Estelle. And now to present the financial structure behind this impressive portfolio, I now invite on stage Emmanuelle Menning, Deputy CEO of Finance and Purchasing at Veolia.

Thank you, Élé, and good morning, everyone. I will now enter into more detail on our business models. So as Estelle has just recalled, energy revenue reached 25% of the group in 2024. This EUR 11 billion split for 70% in urban heating and 30%, a large quarter in our boosters, energy services and Bioenergy. I am going here to detail our urban heating business model, a key and beautiful stronghold. Starting with the financial indicators of urban heating, I am on Slide 20. 85% of our activities is located in Central and Eastern Europe with 5 main countries. Poland with EUR 2.9 billion revenues, Germany and Czech Republic with around EUR 1 billion; Slovakia and Hungary with around EUR 0.5 billion turnover. This positioning is the result of our strategy and history. Indeed, our energy business has always been part of Veolia DNA, initially as a complementary offer of our municipalities in France with a business model very close to our historical municipal water activities, essential services, macro immune infrastructure base, which sustained efficiency gains. Our business are centered around heat delivery for 80%, electricity 20% as a byproduct of heat produced through CHP cogeneration. In total, we produce and/or distribute 64 terawatt hour of energy. Urban return, it's a profitable business with 14% EBITDA margin with a strong predictable free cash flow and a high ROCE after tax of 9% above group average and group WACC. Now let's dive in the main characteristic of our business model in Urban heating. Our energy business is asset base. We own the asset and the heating business is regulated in Central and Eastern Europe. In terms of business model, the district heating is very strong, especially as we are present in the whole value chain, resilient macro immune with a fully protected cost base. It is regulated, and we are covered by a pass-through formula with a long-standing capacity to deliver efficiency gain and create value. There is typically 3 type of business models. First, in 40% of the cases, we only operate the heating network and distribute energy, notably in Warsaw and in Prague with an EBITDA margin of 11%. Second, in 10% of the cases, we own only production assets as in Hungary or Slovakia with an EBITDA margin of 15%. And third, we operate at the best level of our efficiency when we combine production and distribution in the same location, which is the case in nearly 50% of our turnover, for instance, in Poland, here in Poznan, in Ouc, in Czech Republic, or in Germany. EBITDA margin are at the highest in this case, around 70% as we benefit from synergies between activities, combining production and distribution through cogeneration, enhancing our margin with electricity cogeneration and flexibility services and the benefit of decarbonization. We have been able and will continue to create value in urban heating, thanks to key levers. We own our asset and enjoy long-term contracts. Beside one part is important. We are fully in charge of the CapEx decision and delivery with no obligation to complete -- to comply with specific regulatory framework. We have a longstanding expertise in managing heat networks, decarbonizing assets and increasing our EBITDA. Our customer base is, of course, very stable and is even expanding, thanks to high expertise in public tender offer as our heat offer is providing both security of supply and stability of prices compared to individual options. Context has changed in the recent years, providing additional business opportunities with 2 main factors: The necessity to decarbonate and exit from coal and the war in Ukraine, which led to an unprecedented energy crisis and volatility in Europe as energy prices were soaring, price in Europe remained at a higher level than before the crisis and will remain so. Veolia maintained a robust and multifaceted strategy to effectively manage and mitigate the impact of energy price volatility, ensuring financial resilience and stability. This approach is built upon several key pillars. A significant portion of our contractual agreement incorporate well-defined pass-through mechanism, mostly for its energy sale. Proactive and disciplined hedging strategy to protect our margin. Our standard practice involve hedging a substantial portion of our anticipated energy needs, typically covering a strategic horizon up to 3 years with very skilled local teams. The chart on the right-hand side on the slide illustrates the benefit of this strategy with a steady progression of our energy EBITDA during the 2022, 2024 years when energy price were highly volatile. I am on Slide 24, and this chart is key. It shows that thanks to our unique expertise, combined with the decarbonization opportunities, the EBITDA growth between 2021 and 2030 of municipal energy will be sustained and fueled by natural organic growth, CapEx light, contributing to roughly 25% of the EBITDA growth, new connection, new contract, network expansion in Europe, pushed by favorable regulations. Another 25% of EBITDA growth will come from continued efficiency gains. And last but not least, the coal exit will contribute to roughly 50% additional EBITDA gain with a large part from 2027 onwards, and I will come back to it. So that also a stronghold, municipal energy will continue to deliver in the next 5 years and onwards, a sustained mid-single-digit per year on average between 2021 and 2030. I will now detail more specifically the first pillar of our EBITDA progression, which is growth. Growth will come from 3 levers: New connection, additional services, thanks to combination, and geographic expansion. New connection. It will be fueled by strong regulatory incentive, pushing users to connect decarbonized network, efficiency network qualification key to gain new clients, new building connected as this has been the case in Warsaw in the last 10 years. Second, additional services, energy efficiency package, smart metering waste heat and managed notably for data centers. Geographically, we will expand where we will favor asset-light model such as the one in Uzbekistan, which is the case I would like to explain. We signed in 2022, a 30-year O&M contract to manage the district heating network of Tashkent. The assets are not owned by Veolia. We operate them, which enable us to grow with very limited capital employed. We are bringing our unique expertise on the table. Our objective is to significantly reduce leakage, therefore, increase asset efficiency and margins. Second pillar of our municipal energy EBITDA growth its performance, where we benefit from a very strong track record efficiency gain. It will come from 3 factors: increase of our production and distribution asset efficiency through optimization of heat temperature, preventive maintenance, reduction of thermal losses and other. Digitalization and AI to accurately adjust generation to demand. And an important point, as Estelle mentioned, our strategy is based on a diversified energy mix, which enable us to optimize production cost according to the different fuel prices gas, biomass, RDF, CO2 and therefore, increase EBITDA. I am very proud to present to you the latest and biggest pillars of our EBITDA growth, which is coal exit. As you know, we decided 6 years ago, very early in the process to decarbonize our energy asset and fully exit from coal in 10 years. This is very ambitious. And as I will explain, also very rewarding for all our stakeholders, our clients, of course, and the population we serve in Poland, in Czech Republic, in Germany, the planet as coal exit will help us to save close to 4 million tons of CO2 emission. Our shareholder, too, as they will benefit from very rewarding investments with above 10% IRR and eventually own fully renovated coal-free cogeneration assets. We are dedicating EUR 1.6 billion of CapEx and have already invested EUR 0.7 billion. Braunschweig in Germany, Prerov and Kolin in Czech Republic, Poznan in Poland are decarbonized, and you will visit it in a few moments. I would like finally to stress the fact that our coal exit plan until 2030 does not rely only on gas, but much further rely on a multi-fuel approach, including a large part of decarbonized energy, waste food, biomass, heat pump, waste heat recovery, geothermal. So how are we creating value through coal exit and how much? As I have just mentioned, we will have deployed EUR 1.6 billion in strategic investment between 2019 and 2030. This CapEx will generate more than EUR 250 million in additional EBITDA with a back-end loaded profile with all projects generating IRR above 10%. Our decarbonizing strategy creates value through both immediate operational improvement and long-term strategic positioning. Our IRR generation above 10% rely on the following levers. So first, cost reduction with less CO2 certificate purchase and cheaper alternative fuel. Second, additional revenues, thanks to increased electricity volumes with higher electricity conversion and efficiency of our new assets. Regulatory incentive generating long-term secure additional revenues. The regulatory framework in the country where we are implemented provide secured long-term value through additional revenue streams and green energy premiums. And fourth, reduced fixed costs, thanks to gas-fired assets require less intensive handling and maintenance compared to traditional coal infrastructure, resulting also in cost reductions. Beyond this excellent IRR, this investment results from a long-term strategic vision with additional value. With this investment, we are also improving the patrimonial value of our asset base, increasing our economic resilience with a multi-fuel approach and investing into flexible assets, which perfectly fit the new energy market requiring flexibility. The heat distributed is now classified as renewable heat, which increased connection rate to our networks. You can see on the slide, three illustration of the mechanism I have just described. First level, coal exit will enhance our heat spreads. For example, in Prerov, we reduced fuel cost to 0 with RDF source for free or even negative prices, not mentioning the very strong decrease in CO2 certificate purchase. Second level of value creation, it's higher electricity revenue. For example, in Poznan facility, we increased electricity production by around 70%. Another one is provided by regulatory framework, which are entitling us with green premiums. For instance, in Germany, we benefit from cogeneration premium secured up to EUR 40 per megawatt hour over 10-year periods, which provide predictable cash flows, hence, secure investment returns. While in Poznan, the capacity market contract guarantees 17 years of revenues. Finally, coal exit is enabling lower fixed cost as we are saving, for instance, coal handling and storage cost. So indeed, municipal energy, it's a winning business model, very strong, resilient, macro immune with a cost base fully protected. It's very close to Veolia capacity to address municipalities needs in a regulated context and Veolia has the unique profile to extract value, thanks to its long proven operational excellence, our decarbonization capability and our capacity to seize new growth opportunities. Growth will come from new connection, new contract, network expansion in Europe, pushed by favorable regulation. Performance will continue, thanks to our longstanding expertise on network management, efficiency, fuel mix optimization, flexibility and digitalization. And finally, decarbonization will provide more than EUR 250 million of additional EBITDA with double-digit IRR. We have the right people, the operational skills and the longstanding execution track record, which give full visibility on our 2027 target and beyond. This is the beauty of the Stronghold. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Emmanuelle, for this very clear presentation. We now offer to give you a closer look at the operational reality and the technical choices that are shaping district heating networks in the region. I'm going to ask to join me on stage, Pavel Mícka, Head of Transformation and Performance for Central and Eastern Europe at Veolia.

Welcome, Pavel. To begin, perhaps you could outline for us the regional landscape that you're working with and the main drivers that are shaping the evolution of these heating networks.

Good morning, everyone. So in order to answer that nice question, in Central and Eastern Europe, Veolia operates large district heating networks in such key cities like Warsaw, Prague, Bratislava or Tashkent in Central Asia. However, in the region, we operate in total almost 400 heating networks, which means that in the region, we operate as well medium and small-sized networks, like, for example, here in Poland, almost 60 cities like that. In summary, we provide the heat for 5.7 million of inhabitants, and we provide the heat as well for almost 800 industrial sites, which means that we are a major heat provider in Central and Eastern Europe and in countries like Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary, we are ranked in top 3 heat suppliers. What is our strength? On the next slide, you can see that our strength is based on 4 pillars. For the first, we are a leader in decarbonization, which means that our solutions, as already presented by Emmanuelle and Estelle are efficient and sustainable. Moreover, we apply always the approach of circular economy, which means we put into the balance economy, environmental aspect and social aspects. And we're always enriching our solutions by local resources and renewables. For example, geothermal, either shallow or deep, waste heat, particularly from industry or data centers. And we are installing more and more heat pumps, which are not more the heat pumps of small size. It's very powerful devices of even powerful more than 10 megawatts. And as already said, we have as well a large experience in biomass. Second pillar. In second pillar, we are focused on autonomy and security, and we are boosting that solution by installing more and more storage devices like heat accumulators or battery storage. As I said, we continuously improve our efficiency for both our operations and our customers. Moreover, by installing of such devices like gas turbines, e-boilers, by aggregating of small sources into virtual power plant, we are not only improving our efficiency, but we are able as well to provide flexibility and ancillary services to national grid. Last but not least, digitalization. We are transforming our business by digitalization. And thanks to our experience, we are able as well to provide our customers with the services, particularly for cybersecurity, which is our -- one of our priority, of course. So the strength in Eastern -- Central and Eastern Europe is based on those 4 pillars.

Now if we turn to Poznan more specifically, what would you say makes the city a significant example of the transition that is underway? And what elements of the project best illustrate this in your opinion?

Okay. So Poznan, it's amazing example, thanks to Polish colleagues. We performed that showcase of decarbonization journey from coal through gas for transient period to renewables finally. The main driver of our evolution in Poznan is the reduction of CO2 emissions. The path you can see on the picture on the right side, which is based on the change of fuel mixture in the future. And just to tell you some details about the Veolia approach. So for the first, we take into account the legal framework. We are preparing our local environmental consensus solutions -- solution, and then we perform the asset transformation. We are applying properly the asset management, which means by optimizing cost, we are minimizing the risk and as well optimizing the performance, and we are applicating large scale of innovations. Here in Poznan, we've applicated 13 innovations -- innovative solutions in order to improve heat and electricity production, energy efficiency and digitalization. Of course, as already Emmanuelle mentioned, we take care into the stability and sustainability, 17 years contract for capacity market has been already mentioned. Last but not least, regarding investment of -- optimizing of investment, we are profiting from each possible funding either in Europe or specifically locally in Poland. So this is the showcase of our decarbonization journey. Just to precise, when ecothermal grid offer is presented now, for example, with the pilot of Görlitz, Zgorzelec, it's for medium and small-sized cities where taking into account the best available technologies, we are able to perform 100% renewables very soon. On the other hand, for these large district heating transfers and big CHP, central heating plants, sorry for that, we decarbonize step by step and the journey is planned like that.

And we can hear how convinced you are by this journey. You've spoken about many levers to make this system more efficient. I'd like to know if it changes the way the networks are operated. And you also spoke about the combination of water and waste. What does this mean for the cities?

Not only combination of energy of waste, but we have the unique opportunity, what could be seen on the next slide, please. Thank you. So we have the unique opportunity to combine those 3 activities, waste, energy and water. Example of waste for energy combination, there is the Prerov Heating Plant where we use that RDF fuel, which is provided by our waste division. In Veolia, we always prefer to share the experience and to duplicate the projects, which means this project will be replicated soon in Karviná. Regarding the combination with water, which means energy for water or water for energy, we are using the residual heat from ice drinking water or sewage water for heating of buildings. When we operate the wastewater treatment plants, we are able to produce biomass and by burning of biomass in cogeneration unit, we are providing heat and electricity. And the flagship of that solution is our Kubratovo installation in Sofia, where we've achieved 100% self-sufficiency in production of energy. Once again, duplication already mentioned Budapest, but as well Bucharest, Bucharest, Prague as well, where we even upgrade the biogas production by conversion to biomethane. Last but not least, when we supply energy to water business, for example, in Prague, we are able to manage perfectly the usage of electricity for pumping of water, which means if there is low need of electricity, sometimes even price is negative, we could make the pumping and vice versa. So this is regarding synergies. And last but not least, already Estelle and Emmanuelle have been speaking about strong potential for growth. So just to tell you that we are focusing on organic growth. The figure from Poznan where since 2015, we've performed the expansion of about 27%. It's one of the examples when we are present in a city, it's always the case like that. But we are as well extending the networks, but nontraditional way. The very nice example, it's the using of geothermal energy, for example, in Bucharest, today, we performed several projects where we are using geothermal energy, which means transforming shallow geothermal energy by heat pumps, which makes finally the significant reduction of CO2, but as well optimization of cost, and this is the sustainable solution. In conclusion, if I may. In fact, we are performing our decarbonization journey. We are profiting from unique opportunity to make the synergies between business line. We are expanding our network. And by that way, we are achieving our actual targets, but as well, we will deliver the growth as expected and requested, not only in Central Europe, but particularly Central Asia and as well in other zones because we like duplication in Veolia according to the strategy, which is defined by headquarters. Thank you very much for your attention.

Thank you so much, Pavel. I would like to take a seat next to Estelle and Emmanuelle. Let's give him a round of applause for this presentation, please. We are now going to discuss the partnership between the city of Poznan and Veolia. We'll discuss how this has been instrumental to the coal exit pathway and how that has created new opportunities for the wider energy transition. Now to address this, I am going to welcome on stage Jacek Jaskowiak. I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly, Mayor of Poznan, please come on stage. Philippe Guitard, Head of Central and Eastern Europe zone at Veolia; and Jakub Patalas, CEO of Veolia Energy Poznan. And my first question will be for you, Philippe. This morning, we have spoken a lot about heat, about the importance of decarbonization. Can you tell us what makes Veolia different in its approach to energy in the zone?

What makes Veolia different is, first of all, to have with us the Mayor of Poznan. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, to be in a building -- a new building of the city, which is heated by Veolia. So minus 2°C outside, and today, we have 22°C inside. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, because without you, we will be very cold. What's bringing Veolia, you had the presentation of Estelle, Emmanuelle, Pavel, very simply, first of all, the partnership, without the mayor, without the local authorities, the national authorities, Veolia will not be able to apply it's own. That's the base that the history of Veolia to be a local partner for win-win. But we have also in Central Europe and in Veolia, advantages that the others don't have. The first one is a global approach. We produce, we distribute, we invoice, we have client, we have performance, we have the total value chain that no one can compete with. The other exception which make Veolia unique, is we are working with 3 legs: the water, the waste and the energy. And on these 3 historical activities, one is a common point, the energy. We produce with water energy. We produce with waste energy. And this combination is making for the city, for the final client and for Veolia, a winning combination. Winning combination, which is reinforced by the innovation, 13 innovation in Poznan, but on all the global scale of the group, we can say hundreds of innovation. And we have innovation every month, every day on the principle of copy and adapt. We have also some unique expertise. We talk about artificial intelligence, Poland, the network in Poznan, in Ouc, in Warsaw is today with an artificial intelligent pilot, making 3%, 4%, 5% higher efficiency. In Germany, in Hungary, we have a unique biomass expertise. RDF is already applied. The others are talking about it, we are doing it. That's why with all this specific combination and with our association with the local authority, Mr. Mayor, we try to fulfill your promise to make Poznan as an example, not only in Poland, but in the rest of the Veolia activity.

Thank you so much, Philippe. Mr. Mayor, I'd like to continue on this train of thought and ask you a very direct question. Why did you choose to invest in decarbonization? Was it because of regulation? Or was it a personal vision? Tell us more.

Innovation, it is not only semiconductors. Innovation could be also the investment like this. And so I'm from business. Before being elected, I was very active in business, and so I'm not afraid of cooperation. And we did a lot together. And so thank you, Veolia, because to have such a partner, we can do a lot. And decarbonization is very important. We see climate changes and all the things, it is necessary to invest. And first, to be innovative, I'm very happy to have strategic partners like Veolia. Veolia did a lot. If you see these numbers comparing to the even Görlitz or the Czech Republic, it is 820, it is the biggest amount. If you see the investments in Germany, in Czech Republic, in Hungary, in Poland, so Poland is last time quite successful because we cooperate with such partners like Veolia. And so innovation, it is not only semiconductors like Taiwan, it is not only such things like in U.S., Google or Facebook, it is also such business. And so for me, it is very important to show Poznan as also a very innovative city. And in the business, it is very important to be the best, but it is also sometimes very important to be the first. And it is a big chance for Poznan, such cooperation because we could be the first with such big decarbonization. And then for Veolia, it is also the chance because if we are successful as Poznan in this area, then the different cities in Europe and maybe not only in Europe, will follow us. But I like to be the first.

Very clear answer. Thank you so much for that candid answer. Why did you choose Veolia?

Telling the truth, it was chosen before, and I saw the result. In business, numbers are very important, and we could see the numbers and also to follow the numbers in the past, the reduction of coal consumption and so on, it is clear. And then if I see such profit margin, it is very easy to do more, to discuss some things what could we do in next years, how could we together change Poznan. Nowadays, it is also the matter of security. Three years ago after this aggression of Russian Federation and Ukraine, the challenge to heat all the apartments, all the homes, all the offices, it was not easy. I remember this all discussions, is Poznan is safe or not. When I was invited and very big amount of coal was there. And so I was told we are safe. And so it is also important, not only to be the first, but also to be safe.

Thank you so much. I'd like to turn now to you, Jakob. As we have been hearing there is some exit -- this coal exit in Poland -- in Poznan, sorry, is a joint effort between the city and Veolia. Can you tell us more about how important the city's implication is and has been to successfully achieve this transition?

Thank you. Before I will jump to those answer, let me tell you where we are just because we are in a good example of transition. This building has been old brewery that has been changed into shopping mall. And I think Poznan citizens love that place, so do I. And I'm pretty proud that we can, as Philippe said, supply it with the heat deliveries. Answering your question, the role of the city and its officials was always crucial for the entire project and at every of its stage until it was success. We received tremendous support from city officials, especially during the permitting phase when we were acquiring building permit zone locations and after all, at the end of the project when we were applying for occupancy permit. Although all these processes are lengthy and complex, they have been success accomplished without any delays. It's also worth to mention that we have been also supported after the project has been accomplished just because we have changed coal to gas. We also changed the heat tariffs and not everybody has been, let's say, happy about that tariffs has been increased. So the city council members and vice mayor stepped in with the idea to organize a meeting where we had a chance to discuss with the housing cooperative representatives about what was the reason, why this heating prices has changed. And they approved our explanations. So in the end, it was very successful. I would like to also emphasize that our partnership with city resulted with also consistent communication and clear approval of our plans and actions in the end.

On the other end, how would you say that Veolia's unique positioning and its wide portfolio of solutions has been essential to support the city?

Well, Veolia in Poznan is not only the district heating supplier for over 60% of residential buildings within the city range, guaranteeing the security and continuity of those supplies, we are also a key provider for building energy services for over 140 municipal buildings when in one hand, we are enabling for energy savings, but on the other hand, we are maintaining the heat comfort inside those buildings. It is also, I think, so that we became for the 20 years of our cooperation kind of a first choice partner due to our innovation and the worldwide experience. And last but not least, it's also worth to mention that we, Veolia, together with city, we are conducting 1 degree less is more campaign that is showing to local community how important is to save the resources.

Thank you, Jakub. And my final question will be for you, Philippe. What are the next steps to continue revolutionizing the energy in the zone?

Revolution and future. Well, I think we can use Poznan as an example. The decarbonation, as was presented, is an opportunity, not as a constraints. We can use innovation. We can use new technology. We can use the diversity of solution of Veolia to create the future. All what you have seen this morning, you have the solution for all the problems. But we have also, and I want to insist on that, what no one has, we have in Central Europe with this expertise, a unique portfolio with a unique workforce, 40,000 people are working in 14 different countries. 15,000 of them are working in the energy. Why do you think in '22 that Veolia was choose in Uzbekistan? Because we have been the only one to deliver what the other one dream to do. We have the resources. We have as Estelle, the ambition, and we have also the proudness, proudness to do what we say and to say what we do. The experience of energy, the capacity of Veolia to demonstrate we can do more with less, digestion of the complexity with the support of the partnership, it's more than a future. Geographically, we have a lot of ambition in Central Asia, in South of Europe, but we are also on industrial world, a unique position. I'm sure that you don't know that we are managing in Hungary or in Czech Republic, more than 50% of the energy hospital with efficiency, with resilience and with professionalism. So as I like to say, it's better to see one than to listen 100 times. Let's visit the gas station of Poznan, and you will see already a part of the future.

Thank you so much, Philippe. And to end this roundtable on a visual representation, please have a look at this video on new urban energy. Thank you, gentlemen. [Presentation]

Now before we turn to you to take your questions, I would like to invite you, Estelle, to please come back center stage to give your key takeaways.

We've shown you this morning what's possible. The technology does work, the project do deliver returns and the transformation is happening. But here is the reality to scale this across Europe to move from dozens of cities to hundreds of cities, European authorities need to act, and they need to act now. So let me be very clear about what needs to happen to get there. First, prioritize local energy. This is waste heat from data centers, metros, industry, geothermal, biomass, those resources exist. They constitute a potential 400 gigawatts of untapped resources, make them a priority. Second, accelerate permits. Permits take years. We need months, fast-track renewable heating projects. Third, scale geothermal guarantee funds. Hungary and France proved it works, replicate it across Europe, remove the risk, unlock the resource. Fourth, deliver regulatory stability. Investment needs visibility. So implement existing laws and stop changing the rules. Local energy, fast permits, geothermal guarantees, regulatory stability, these 4 priorities will unlock carbon-neutral heating across Europe. Veolia is ready. The cities are ready. The technology is ready. Now we need the policy framework to match this ambition. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much, Estelle. So let's open to your questions. [Operator Instructions] Do not hesitate. We are at your disposal. Yes, we have a question right here. Can we bring a microphone over there?

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can hear you. Can you present yourself and ask your question, please.

Bartek Kubicki, Bernstein of Gen. Two questions, if I may, on heating and power generation. First of all, if we think about Poland per se, there's plenty of coal-fired power plants here, heat plants here. I just wonder if in your minds, you are thinking about maybe expanding a little bit beyond the assets you have, getting new assets and then transferring your expertise to decarbonize other assets, which I guess are predominantly owned by municipalities. That will be question number one. And question number two, if we think beyond the decarbonization, so let's say, 2030 or when you finish the projects, if you can tell us what are the growth drivers of ROCE and EBITDA beyond decarbonization so after you decarbonize the plants and then whether they meet your criteria or definition of being a mature assets, and I'm referring here to your Friday's presentation.

So I may start and maybe, Emmanuelle, you want to complement. On Poland, I guess we launched this morning the ecothermal grid. That's partially the answer to your question. The idea is not -- it's to be an asset-light offer to be able to help cities, even if they were in-house, like you know you have many in Poland, but elsewhere as well, to help them with decarbonization, with making more efficient and so on and so forth, not having to necessarily buy the asset of them if they were just to want to maintain the ownership as it is today. So that's a good example of what we have in mind in the next few years. The rest we'll see the opportunities as they arise, but that's the global picture. In terms of beyond, so is your question, do we intend to sell our assets in Poland? The answer is no. I'm trying to refer to the Friday last bit of your question. You've understood that not only it delivers good return, but there is good growth. It's growing in terms of profits. And just to elaborate a little bit on what I called about mature asset on Friday, it's really something which the profit in a way or the return would not grow in the next few years. As you've seen this morning, we have a lot of things up to 2030 and even beyond because beyond that, I think the example of Tashkent was mentioned. And I know that Philippe and same applies to my -- the Asian colleague of Philippe, lots of new dots on the map beyond 2030, I can tell you. Emmanuelle?

So maybe on your first question, Poland. So as you may know, we love Poland. It's one of our top 5 countries. And we have an amazing team, amazing track record and track record of figures and delivery of projects, which have been stellar. So we'll continue to grow. That's for sure. As I mentioned, it will come from new connection. So we had new connection in the past. It was the case, for instance, in Warsaw. Yearly growth was, if I'm not mistaken, 1.5% per year over the last 10 years. So that will be one thing, and urban will continue to expand. We will work on efficiency networks that will also help us because our network now when we take the definition of EU is defined as efficiency network, meaning that we have incentive for connection. We'll continue to sell our additional services and the team for that is amazing. That's a strong combination with our boosters. So it can be energy efficiency package. So all that, that we will continue to deliver. We'll have smart metering, waste heat management. And the third element is, of course, we want to expand. It will be majorly CapEx light, and it has to be fully in line with our, what we call financial criteria. If we have one amazing opportunities, we need a bit of CapEx, of course, we will consider it. Coming to your second question, so what happened after 2030? So you are quite early, Bartek, if I may. But what I can say is it's what we explained with Estelle and the team today is that, first, growth will come also from decarbonization. What you have in mind is will all the decarbonization we do, part of the EBITDA growth will come after 2030. That's a really important point. And after that, we'll continue to grow, thanks to efficiency, geographical development. We have a very clear vision of what we want to do.

Thank you so much for this question and the answers. Do we have any other questions in the room? I hope I can see. We have quite a few questions here. Perhaps you can bring a microphone here first, and then we will get to you.

Arnaud Palliez, CIC. I would like to have more details about geographical expansion regarding, of course, the track record and the innovation accumulated in Central and Eastern Europe. Can you develop the business in other regions? The eligible market you mentioned with 400 gigawatt of wasted heat. This is on a global scale or this is what is really your eligible market?

So geographical expansion, you have district heating and urban heating, which we have discussed this morning. But we have other type of activities in the energy business, which I referred to earlier on in the day, such as bioenergy, energy efficiency, just to mention 2 ones, which are boosting our activity, as you know. So if you take the overall new urban energy, which is what Veolia does, we have a worldwide ambition to develop this business with some specificity on choosing our battles, but like we do in waste and in water in the same way. So what are those criteria in a way? First is, of course, it's where the demand is for a very long time. And by the way, we don't want to be dependent on subsidies. As you know, it was proven to be quite a successful choice, if I may, with all the ups and downs of various governmental help. We don't want to be depending on subsidies. So basically, that gives you a full demand for our service in various parts of the world. The second one is I don't want to disperse our means. You've seen the top 3 strategy in the GreenUp plan. When we are in a country, we want to be very good at this specific activity in this specific country. It goes with what Philippe said about being embedded, having super professional team who can deliver on their promises and so on and so forth. So if you mix all that, that type of criteria, you will end up having, yes, district heating not only in Central and Eastern Europe, which goes from Germany all the way East, Central Asia and Asia altogether. In terms of cold, we've developed the first new worldwide first, for instance, in Barcelona that we've launched a few months ago. And you can imagine that in the Middle East, we will be more talking about cold rather than heat. Then if you move to, for instance, energy efficiency and all the rest, we are doing already a lot of that in South America, in the Middle East again. So it depends on which pieces of the jigsaw. But each time, we want to be in the top 3 of this specific market at Veolia in this specific country. So the ambition is really worldwide, but not by dispersing our means because we have potential pretty much in lots of different places. And 400 gigawatt, it's our estimate on European scale. We could do the same estimate in other parts of the world, but we wanted to make it very, very like easy to capture because 400 gigawatt at European scale is equivalent of the overall consumption of Italy on everything, just to give you an idea. So it's massive. It's 1/3 of what the EU does import in fossil fuel that you can replace by, again, biogas, biomass, wasted heat, nonrecyclable waste and so on and so forth. So local sources. So the idea was try to capture, is it worth it in a way? Or is it -- will it stay super small? And the answer is it could be a big game changer in the energy mix, but we could do exactly the same math in other continents.

Thank you so much, Estelle.

This is [indiscernible] I have a couple of questions. First of all, your goal is to be #1 in heat solutions in Europe by 2030. So I want to know where do you stand now? Are you in second place, in third place, I mean, what's your market share? And the other question would be more or less you have already answered it, but how does this heat push with countries like Spain in which you have an important footprint, but at the same time, maybe they are not solutions that much needed?

So on the first one, so we are #2 today in urban heating in Europe, close to the #1. In terms of market share and pushing, you've understood to get to the #1 status. In terms of market share, it's roughly 10%, I think it's 9.5%. If you count by number of inhabitants, which are connected to a Veolia district heating network as opposed to other competitors. Having in mind that the #1 is probably a little bit both, but the vast majority of the market share is run directly by cities. So what's run by specialized companies like Veolia is basically like just 25% of the overall market. The 75% is actually run by cities. So in a way, there is -- that's why we talked about privatization of cities who are looking for efficiency, innovation and decarbonization, which is exactly what we do. You have an open market which is expanding as well in that spectrum. In terms of Spain, Spain, we already are very present in energy, # 2, I gather, in energy efficiency in Spain. Plus, we've invested in the last 1 year, which is one of our booster of activity coming back to the question we had earlier on, we've invested in half a dozen of tuck-in acquisition this year alone in Spain from -- and it's mainly, I would say, industrial energy efficiency and energy supply and heat supply, if you want, that we have developed in Spain. So from industrial cold to industrial heat and everything which looks like that. With regards to urban heating as what you see in Poznan, you would understand that it's a little bit less relevant given the weather is slightly different, right? But as we said, heat is not only to warm your homes, it's as well needed for industrial processes, and that's exactly where we focus our attention in Spain.

Thank you so much, Estelle. We have a question here.

So a few questions from me and from Olly Jeffery from Deutsche Bank. The first question is just a clarification. So all of the business growth outside of the coal program, is that CapEx light? Or is it just the geographical expansion part of CapEx light think of the new connections and the ecothermal grid? And the second question is on the organic growth out to 2030, particularly with regard to the waste heat service you might be able to provide to data centers. Do you see upside potential to that? Or is that really too nascent to see that as potential upside over the medium term versus your expectations? And the last one is just on the coal program. You've got EUR 250 million EBITDA at full run rate. You've already got a couple of plants up and running. How much is it -- how much is that delivering today?

Okay. I'm going to start with Emmanuelle. So apart from coal, all the others expansion, are they CapEx heavy or CapEx light, Emmanuelle?

Yes. So what -- as Estelle mentioned, we want to concentrate our means, meaning that today, the main CapEx we invest and we want to invest, it's on the decarbonization, which is very profitable with excellent people, amazing track record and ERR above 10%. Then we have all the maintenance that we want to continue -- and that we do and that we will continue to do. We want to have plants which are solid, which are delivering the essential services for our people. In terms of additional expansion, the priority is given on CapEx light. If we have an amazing project coming fitting our criteria, we'll take the liberty to look at it.

So, it's CapEx-light mainly apart from the coal transition. Organic growth and data centers. So data center, we see a potential for growing the business of Veolia in different ways, basically to launch a sustainable data center offer, just to put it in simple terms because waste heat recupe is a big potential, and we already are developing projects like that one, like we have -- we will see one major in Poznan, but as you can imagine, it's not only in Poland, it's pretty much across the globe. The other one is water because you need water to cool down data centers as well. And we are a worldwide specialist of water technology. So we developed a way to kind of recycle water, if you want, to avoid having to fight for water between a town, farmers and data centers, which, by the way, we already see in the U.S., just to give you an idea of how crazy at times the world can sound. And the third one is more the hazard waste element of data centers because you have a lot of electrical, electronical equipment within a data center, which are hazardous waste material. And that's why like our waste presence. And again, we are #1 worldwide in hazardous waste and soon #2 in the U.S. will be helping. So it's a comprehensive sustainable data center offer, which we are launching and having some already early success. Can you project a big number? We'll see that through. First things first, we are really like launching this offer, and it's proven to be quite successful already. In terms of core program of the EUR 250 million, which I think on the slide you said was back-end loaded, Emmanuelle, but back-end loaded, is there already a little bit of it in our numbers today?

Yes, absolutely. Fair question. So on the EUR 250 million of EBITDA that we will generate, we had 50 million, which were before the start of GreenUp, mainly coming from Braunschweig. During the plan, we have roughly EUR 50 million coming from Poznan and a part of Prerov and Kolin, and all the remaining part will arrive after 2027. And I think it's made the link with the question of Bartek.

Thank you so much. Now if you will allow, I'm going to close the in-person portion of this Q&A. I'd like to remind you that we're having lunch together so we can continue the discussion later on. I'll just take a few questions from our online participants. Here is a question from Emira Sagaama from ODDO BHF. Do you have any ambition to replicate this expertise in China as your coal exit target only applies to Europe?

So we already are very present in China in the district heating and urban heating business in various cities. So it's Harbin, it's Yanshan and Chong -- sorry, I'm...

Wuxi...

Xi'an, Wuxi, thank you. Always I'm slightly confused with the name of cities we operate in, which are so numerous. So we already are very present in China. And again, as we said, already present in Asia altogether. We are present in Hong Kong and Central Asia as well. In terms of decarbonization agenda, we already are doing a lot. If I remember well, in China, we've reduced by 30% the carbon intensity in our network. But as far as coal exit is concerned, the question is with what can you replace it with? So we do already a lot of biomass and stuff, but there is not enough alternative to replace coal so far. So it will happen one day, probably. And we are working with the Chinese authority to see how we can -- how we could implement that. But you have to realize that in those cities I mentioned, it's minus 30 degrees in the winter. And you don't have any wood, you don't have enough waste in the city to provide with the entirety of the replacement of coal. But very proud already with what has been achieved, which is a minus 30% carbon intensity in those network and replacing progressively with biomass.

Thank you, Estelle. And for timing constraints reasons, sorry, I'm going to end with this final question coming from our participants online. A question from Arthur Sitbon from Morgan Stanley. What will the timing profile be for the EUR 0.9 billion remaining coal exit CapEx? Will they peak in a given year? Or will they be more evenly distributed to 2030? And he also has the same question for your EBITDA trajectory in energy. When will most of the EUR 250 million EBITDA uplift materialize?

I think on the second one, you already answered, Emmanuelle, but on the spending of the CapEx, maybe?

Yes. On the spending of the CapEx, thanks to the amazing team that we have, we are succeeding to have a schedule of CapEx, which is evenly split over the years. We will have 2 years with a higher peak, which are 2027 and 2028.

But I guess on the timing of the project like the one we've seen -- we will see early this afternoon, I don't know, Pavel, how long does it take to get a project like the one we'll see up and running? What, 3 years of preparation and detailed design and something like that?

It's a little bit longer. Nevertheless, thanks to say that we are cooperating very well with headquarters with financial department in order to make the planning and not to focus something on 1 year. So we've already began. You've seen that we are somehow in the middle of our journey, already a lot of projects finished, which give us the chance to continue step-by-step and in such a, let's say, cooperation on CapEx delivery continuously or CapEx request. Only if you permit me, maybe small technical remark regarding Poland because, of course, we are decarbonizing our assets. But for example, by installing of gas turbines, and we've been talking a lot about flexibility and actually services, here in Poznan, we today, we've commissioned already 2 gas turbines. We will do the same or more or less for Lódz with 3 units. And by providing those services, we enable to the grid to connect even more renewables out of our scope. So Veolia is here to help the country, the zone in order to implement the decarbonization journey even out of our assets, which we either own or operate.

So direct impact and indirect impact as well.

If I may say one word because Pavel is a bit humble. When I'm looking at the project that you are delivering with the [indiscernible] because you have 300 people on site at the same time, you are able to continue to deliver it and to build the facility. And also, you are always finding the most fitting technological solution, which is amazing.

I'm not only humble, but my teams or our teams here are humble.

0 accidents.

With 0 accidents.

With 0 accident says Philippe. That seems like an excellent way to close this Q&A. Thank you so much for your questions. Thank you for your answers. And this brings this plenary to a close to our remote audience. Thank you for joining us. We look forward to seeing you again for a future Thema trip. Goodbye.