Verve Group SE (VRV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome to the Verve Group Q4 2024 Presentation. [Operator Instructions] Now I will hand the conference over to the speakers, CEO, Remco Westermann; and CFO, Christian Duus. Please go ahead.

Thank you very much. Good morning to everybody. I would like to welcome our investors, analysts and other stakeholders to our financial hearings with regards to Q4 and full year 2024. Yes, we had really nice numbers, and I would like to guide you through the different slides going to the beginning. Just a short start to remind everybody and for those that don't know us so well, we are a leading digital media company. We are working for both advertisers and publishers because that's creating the best results. It's cutting middleman and it's the most efficient setup. We are working with responsible advertising solutions, those being brand safety, fraud prevention, but most of all privacy. The advertising market is changing. It's being disrupted. Identifiers are disappearing. Consumers are being asked, do you get consent, they mostly say no. That's a huge opportunity in this market, which we are really using and which we're focusing on. Then emerging channels, we're talking about mobile, connected TV, digital out-of-home and audio. Those are all growing channels that we focus on because we want to do a full customer journey. Our mission is to let make media better. We think that this market is still very fragmented. It has a lot of inefficiencies, too many participants, too much clutter. And yes, we think that things can be done better. Getting into Q4. First, to start with an overview of, let's say, our main achievements or our main highlights actually for Q4 and also a bit of a '25 outlook. We had a strong revenue growth, and we're able to structurally improve our profitability. We continue our strong customer growth and have a well-diversified customer base. On the product side, we're seeing a fast growth in Full-screen and Video Ads. And also, we're seeing good momentum in our ID-less targeting solutions. So those are really continuing to drive growth. Then further focus was on unifying and growing our demand side. As mentioned before, we want to work for advertisers and publishers and the more -- the best efficient solution is having an advertiser dollar coming on our direct supply. Then Jun Group acquisition we did in 2024, yes, accelerating growth, integration progressing well. And then I'm getting to 2025 outlook. U.S. advertising market, macroeconomy look good, and there's a lot of opportunities for ID-less advertising. So as I said, I'll dive into all those 6 a bit deeper now. Coming first to strong growth and further structural improved profitability. We're very happy and yes, it's great to present our strong growth with 46% revenue growth, getting to EUR 144 million revenues in Q4 versus EUR 99 million in Q4 last year. Our organic growth was, yes, doing a lot -- a big part of that with 24%. So we were also able to increase our organic growth with 16% organic growth in Q4 '23, now 24% in Q4 '24. Our adjusted EBITDA growing faster than our revenues with 53%, now coming to EUR 48 million and our net results growing with 192%, ending up the quarter with EUR 14 million. Christian will go in more detail about the financials, but we wanted to highlight the strong growth profile of the company already in the highlights. Then what's behind it? The strongest growth driver were our large customers, customers that [ are ] more than $100,000 per year. We saw a 57% increase in that. We added over 400 large customers. So new customers is really driving the growth strongly. We also differentiate on this chart between full organic, which is coming to over 1,000 to 1,014 and including Jun Group, we end up with the 1,140. Then also our existing customer base, we saw a very good net dollar expansion rate, growing with 10%. That's a nice achievement to grow the current customers and as I said, the new customers are doing the majority of the growth. Then client retention was very strong at 97% in the range of 95% to 98% where we are normally. And then driving our overall growth, the ad impressions, yes, we take a cut of the advertising revenues that are being generated by those impressions and a 33% increase in ad impressions is a nice result. And we see also clearly the seasonality. Q4 is the strongest quarter and Q1 the slowest, and it's building up like that. But already in '24 in Q2, we were above Q4 '22 -- '23. Then coming to the customer base, going a bit more in depth, already mentioned a very strong increase in new customers, new large customers, stronger even than in 2021, which was also a very strong year that we had. And going a bit into the risk profile. We see that on the advertiser side, the largest advertiser is doing 6% of our revenues. And if we come to the top 10, they're doing a substantial part of our revenue, but 61% of our revenue is done by our other advertisers and those are many more. On the supply side, a similar view, the largest supplier, 6% and then the smaller suppliers behind that. Coming to our growth, I mentioned it before, Full-Screen Ads, Video have been driving a lot of our growth. You see the numbers below. So we had 149% growth on Full-Screen and Video. That has to do with the market moving in that direction, but it also had to do with improvements in our technology that we did to just enable this better, and we see further growth continuing here. Then coming back to the split between demand and supply. As already mentioned before, we want to work for advertisers and publishers both. We have been a bit more focused on the supply side in the last years because that's important to have direct supply to have the direct relations with the publishers because it gives you better access to data and gives a lot of, yes, let's say, the best supply position possible. Demand side was not as strong as you see in Q4 '23, it was 14% versus 86%. Now with the Jun Group acquisition and further investments on the demand side, we were able to bring the demand side to 27%, which is 169% growth, while we also were able to grow the supply side very nicely. The ideal that we are going for towards is 50-50. So we still have a bit of work to do here. Then getting into Jun, I mentioned already before, Jun was acquired in 2024. We saw a good growth. Jun was a great acquisition, very accretive, and I'll come to some more details on the next slide. But the previous owner was basically milking Jun and just going for maximum cash flow. We want our companies to grow. That's a very clear message to the management and to the teams, and we're really happy to show good growth on Jun, which was, let's say, stimulated and helped by the combination with Verve. But if you look a bit further and go to the next slide, then we see that there's much more possible with Jun. There's a lot of synergies that we have, which we are working on. Connected TV, for example, Jun Group has strong relations to agencies. They are selling CTV. They used to be selling CTV from other suppliers, from other partners. Now they're starting to sell -- supply from Verve, so direct supply, and we see that we made good progress with being at 50% of where we want to be. Then on the marketplace side, there's Jun Group's SDK base. We have to do technical changes. They were working with waterfall bidding. We are now changing them to header bidding, and we're also enabling further demand on that. That's still in the beginning, but technical progress is good, and we also expect this to start yielding and to bring further synergies in. Then joint sales force and international expansion. Also there, we are making progress. We have just integrated the teams. And now we are really training them all on the same story. We are adding extra salespeople. So there, we're also at the beginning, but we are pretty sure that we can scale this pretty fast. Also part of that is, of course, getting them on the same CRM systems and things like that. Then COGS and OpEx, also there are substantial synergies, for example, getting the companies in the same cloud, but also other cost potential. There, we're making good progress that goes a bit faster. And yes, looking at the numbers, we mostly expect the synergies to come in from the end of Q1 2025 onwards, but we expect synergies of EUR 9 million on the revenue side and EUR 2 million on the OpEx side. Then already getting to a bit of an outlook or also looking a bit forward. Yes, the macro economy in the U.S. looks strong and seems to be strong also for the next years. If we look at in-app, and that's what you see on the left side, there's a CAGR expected -- market CAGR expected of 10% plus, which means we have a strong underlying growth already by the market. And as you've seen, we're good in also gaining market share. So we also expect to grow faster than the market growth. A bit on the positioning on the right side. If we look at the positioning on iOS and this is, let's say, done by Pixalate. We have the #1 position in iOS. That's where the ID has largely been deprecated. So that's an environment where we're really driving, which is really showing where we can show how good our ID solutions are. But also on the trust side, and that has to do with brand safety, with fraud mitigation and with privacy, we have a good score. That's also a good basis for further growth coming -- looking into the future. Further driver for future growth is our ID-less Solutions. I mentioned that a few times, and that's really where we have focused on and which is really shown to -- show very good results. Also in the U.S., now people are being asked, do you want to be tracked or not? Most people say no, 80% says no. So what we see now on iOS ad signals that 80% has no ID in it anymore. That's an environment that we love. We can also target with IDs, but the ID-less one is really where the market is being disrupted, and that's where we see our major growth. So showing very good growth on iOS '24 versus '23 -- sorry, '24, yes, versus '23. And then looking a bit forward, iOS is far, but also Google is moving into that direction. There's less and less content, less and less IDs on Google and also on other platforms. So we see a very nice future for us here to further continue to focus also on ID-less Solutions. That is the end of my part, and I would hand over to Christian for the financials. Christian, up to you.

Thank you very much, Remco. Yes, allow me to first focus on the highlights of Q4. So as Remco mentioned, it was indeed a very strong quarter in terms of financial performance, both in terms of revenue growth, but actually also in terms of a structural lift in profits. As you see here, we posted 46% total revenue growth. That was on the basis of total revenues of EUR 144 million in Q4 2024. That's a EUR 45 million addition to the EUR 99 million that we made in a similar quarter prior year. We posted 24% organic growth, and I'll come back to that number. But what is particularly good to see is also an increase in a lift in our adjusted EBITDA. So we grew from EUR 32 million in prior year to EUR 48 million in Q4. That's actually an increase of 53%. And we see that the lift in profits carries through on all profitability measures, so on adjusted EBITDA, but also on adjusted EBIT, which grew 57% and also to earnings per share, which grew with 149%, increasing earnings per share from EUR 0.03 to EUR 0.08 on an undiluted basis. You'll note that we had a very strong EBITDA margin for Q4 at 34%. Actually, we've been -- it's been a very nice progression through the year. We started at 27% in Q1 and then increasing through the year, ending at 34% for Q4, which is also where we wanted to be. This is, of course, helped by the combination and inclusion of Jun as a business into our business mix. But it's also charismatic of the type of business we're in, the seasonality of our business. Q4 is the biggest season in our business and with higher revenues always generated in Q4 on roughly the same number of people and also the same technology cost, you really see scale effect kick in, in Q4 and producing a very nice margin of 34%. The lift in revenues, the lift in profitability also translates very nicely to operating cash flow, which was EUR 55 million for the quarter. If I then turn to more of a full year perspective and put those and look at the full year performance, overall, the year was very strong. We lifted revenues from EUR 322 million to EUR 437 million, as you see here. That's a 36% lift on revenues, and we lifted adjusted EBITDA from EUR 95 million to EUR 133 million, which is a 40% increase. So we grew top line with 36%. We grew profits with 40%, and that's really what you would like to see in a business like ours. We see the scale effect coming in. And overall, 2024 was a very nice addition and extension of our already strong track record. As you can see here across the years 2020 to 2024, we are growing on average at 33% per year. It was also a particularly strong result to -- and I want to highlight, we produced 25% organic growth for the year. Organic growth is a core focus area for us, and we've managed to deliver 25% growth. And you can see here strong organic growth actually in the 5 consecutive quarters consistently, and we produced a 24% growth in Q4, which is a slight -- slightly lower than we had in Q3, but I also want to point you to Q4 2023, where we were already growing 16%. So really, the 24% is created on the basis of an already high-performing quarter last year. Turning now to operating cash flows and also the development in CapEx. I already mentioned we had strong operating cash flow of EUR 55 million for Q4. We see similar lift -- a strong lift overall for the full year. If I -- if we look at 2023 to 2024 here on the left-hand side in the dark blue bars, we lifted -- we actually managed to double our operating cash flow from EUR 69 million to EUR 137 million. Also, if we look at free cash flow after interest expenses, we lifted it from EUR 23 million to EUR 83 million. So really a big step-up in terms of cash flows. We noted EUR 45 million in cash interest expenses. And in line with earlier communications, we see a good possibility to bring down the overall interest expenses for the company by refinancing our bonds at better terms. This would -- we believe, has a potential of EUR 10 million to EUR 15 million overall to reduce interest for the full year. Turning here to the right-hand side and looking at the CapEx development, we note we had EUR 9 million in maintenance CapEx for '24 and also EUR 34 million in expansion CapEx, i.e., investment in developing the platform and innovating the platform. This level is roughly in line with what we've seen in previous years and would also be indicative of the level of investments that we need going forward to both maintain but also really innovate and having a cutting-edge technology platform. But it's roughly stable through the years. This brings me to net debt and net leverage ratio. We have EUR 351 million in net interest-bearing debt for the end of the year, down from EUR 378 million at September LTM basis. This means that we are at 2.4 for a net leverage ratio, which is a very strong milestone for us. We had an aim to come under the 2.5 ratio, and we're at 2.4. So it's really a milestone for the company and a result of the focus of the company to bring down the net leverage ratio. Interest coverage ratio has improved through the year and maintained several levels to LTM September at 3.3x. Now if I take the full performance and kind of compare it to our guidance for the year, we started out initially with a guidance of EUR 350 million to EUR 370 million on revenues and EUR 100 million to EUR 110 million on EBITDA. We have subsequently raised the guidance 2x through the year, partly because the business was performing very well, and we can see that we would be increasing our -- both revenues and profitability, but of course, also because we have included Jun Group as an acquisition. If we take stock of where we ended, we ended at EUR 437 million for revenues, which is a clear outperform of the third guidance of EUR 400 million to EUR 420 million. And on adjusted EBITDA, we end at EUR 133 million, which is on the high side of the guidance of EUR 125 million to EUR 135 million. So we're very happy, of course, to deliver on the guidance for the year and even overachieving on revenues. This brings me to midterm financial targets. We confirm our midterm financial targets as stated here on the page. And we are -- really one of the best ways for us to validate those targets is by delivering results, and we are very happy to report that for the full year, we can tick all 4 boxes on the midterm financial targets. So we produced 36% revenue growth, which is clearly above the 25% to 30% range. We produced 30% margin on EBITDA, and also come into range. I also note that we raised the EBITDA margin guidance as we took on Jun Group, but we come with the guidance. And also on -- actually on EBIT, we grew 25% as you are on the higher side of guidance. And as I mentioned, we are at 2.4x leverage. So we managed to bring it down under the 2.5x, which is really a big milestone. That concludes the financial update, and I will then hand over the word back to Remco for closing remarks.

Thank you, Christian. Then we go to the last slide of the presentation and maybe start with a few words before that. We had a very strong 2024. We were able to further innovate our products and especially in the ID-less space. We were able to further increase and improve our market position, client base, et cetera. And that all led to a very strong revenue growth and also strong -- even stronger growth of profitability. So we're super happy with that. And yes, the full year was good, but last quarter was really exceptionally good. So a good start to get into 2025. So also going into 2025, we saw a very nice development already in the market. Christian showed our midterm targets. Our guidance for 2025 will be presented with our Q1 financials as we normally always do it. But I would like to give a bit of a -- yes, deep dive or, let's say, a bit of an outlook in our key objectives for 2025. The first one is further to focus on AI-driven ID-less targeting expansion. We are good in that field. We see that the market is further moving towards that. It takes a bit time to convince agencies and they first want to see, test, et cetera, and the same for advertisers, but we see really good traction there. And with our product suite, including ATOM, Moments.AI, et cetera, we really have a nice position in that market. Then the second focus point is operational focus and improvements. I showed already a bit on Jun Group. So that's an important part that we're looking at. But there's more. It's not only Jun integration. It's also -- we still have 2 supply platforms, 2 supply side platforms that we're integrating, which will lead to further efficiencies, plans to also fully integrate them in 2025. And there's many more things on the operational and execution side, also adding extra salespeople, et cetera. This should all lead to growth in free cash flow, which will lead to further delevering as a target, which also Christian shows and, of course, also increasing earnings per share. And yes, underlying is a very positive trend that we see. First of all, the U.S. market, our main market, yes, is in a good state, macroeconomically showing nice progress and should really also show good market growth. And on top of that, let's say, the move or the need to move to ID-less, there's less-IDs around advertisers need to target also those segments. So that's also a very nice driver for our further growth. So we are further standing for let's make media better. As said, a good quarter and looking very positively ahead. That brings me to the end of the presentation. I would like to thank you all and hand over to the moderator.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Adrian Elmlund from Nordea.

Nice [Technical Difficulty] so well done. I got a couple of questions. So first off, do you have any comment regarding the short-sellers report on AppLovin? It's the -- I think they're targeting AXON ad software. Could these allegations maybe have any impact on you? And how similar are your products to them? Do you have any comments on that?

Yes, I can answer that. Let's say, I normally don't like to talk about competition, and we are not in a state to check if those allegations are true or not. We know the short-sellers are always pushing at companies, but we cannot really give a decent comment on that. What I can say is that AppLovin has a pretty own part of the market, which is really game publishers where they have a kind of closed ecosystem. That's a part -- that's not so important for us. I mean gaming for us is a small part of the market. If there's really issues there, it could, let's say, lead to more growth on our side. On the other hand, it wouldn't impact us too much. So I don't see a lot of effect of it on our side. Apart from it would not be good for the whole sector if there's, let's say, if things are not going in the right way because as I mentioned before, brand safety, trust, all those things are very important in this market. And yes, we should, as a market, make sure that advertisers get what they pay for and publishers also get fairly treated.

Okay. Fair enough. Also regarding the margin for the DSP segment, it's down year-over-year, if I'm not mistaken. Is this because you're allocating the cost in OpEx to this segment? Or what is behind the decline?

Christian, do you want to take it or should I take it?

Well, I can maybe start and then you can add Remco. So overall, I think it's because of a mix shift in our business and channels. We are pushing certain formats very aggressively or aggressively in the Full-Screen and the Video Ads and that we are doing to gain market share and that may be affecting the overall margin.

Yes. But still maybe completing to that, we are, let's say, going in with a bit lower margin, but we still have a very good margin. Yes. And that's also what we want to keep, of course. But gaining market share, of course, important. It's a segment that's growing and with lowering our margin a bit, we are able to gain share -- to gain share faster than we otherwise would.

Okay. Another question here. How much can you keep adding large customers? Do you have any estimate of your -- of the market share here in the number of large customers? And could we -- or when should we expect to see maybe a lower growth in the customer acquisition side?

On the short term or even midterm, I don't see any limitations there. I mean we are still a small company if you look in the total size of the market. I mean we're talking about a market alone in the U.S. of 300 billion programmatic dollars. So in that sense, we can add more customers. Of course, at a certain point, it's more about scaling also the over $100,000 customers, which is very important. But so far, there are no limitations. I mean we're adding a lot of new customers overall. We don't show them now in this report. But in the end, a new customer can do $10 or can do $100,000 or can do $1 million. So in that sense for us, it's really important to scale them. But so far, there are no limitations that I see. I hope that answers your question, Adrian.

Okay. And then the last question here. Can you comment a bit on the expansion into Asia? And also, do you have any interest in growing in Europe as a percentage of sales or kind of leaving it as is?

Yes, we are -- let's say, we want to grow everywhere, of course, but it's super important to also keep focus. And we have so many growth opportunities. You cannot do everything at the same time, and we will also keep some for later. So our main focus is really on the U.S. That's also there the price per ad are highest. That's where a customer onboarding goes faster, that's where a test budget of customer is much higher than it is in Europe or in Asia, for example. So in that sense, the main focus is on the U.S., but we are also not forgetting, let's say, other markets. We do a bit in Europe. We're also increasing the teams there a bit, same for LatAm and the same for Southeast Asia. But as I said, main focus on the U.S.

The next question comes from Fiona Orford-Williams from Edison Group.

Congratulations on a great set of results. My first question is in terms of the market share. Is it coming from a particular player who might be suffering in the market? Or is it just being gathered from various places?

Yes, market share comes from various things. First of all, it's typical B2B what we're doing. So if we add extra sellers, if they onboard extra advertisers or extra publishers, that drives, of course, growth. So that's what you see also in onboarding new customers. But then if you look a bit deeper, we need to prove that we are really delivering value because we only make money if an ad is really sold. And that means that we need to have the right targeting and an advertiser that buys the ads. And then we come into really getting product improvements on the AI side, product improvements on the ID-less side, which are really driving revenue and also performance there. So a lot of investments in platform in our product portfolio and of course, also in showing customers that we do better than some of our competitors and by that gain market share. So in the end, it's not going by itself. We need to prove that our targeting is better.

Understood. Second question is on CTV. Are you where you expected to be at this stage? And what are the immediate opportunities?

CTV is a very -- thanks for the question. CTV is a very discussed topic because the majority of the market is still in linear TV. And the whole market is, I would say, speculating when this big chunk of linear TV is really moving to CTV. It should because it doesn't make sense to have an ad that reaches all the people, all the, let's say, viewers with the same message. I mean, with connected TV, you can individualize ads, you can bring to the household. So it doesn't make sense, but it's super slow this whole move towards CTV. So in that sense, we would have expected CTV to grow faster, but there will be a jump sometime, but nobody exactly knows when that will happen. And it will probably also not be one jump, but more gradual one. But you saw that, let's say, forecast for the market is 14% growth, but there is much more potential in CTV.

Yes. Yes. Understood. Okay. And my third question was on the DSP side. Now your leverage is getting back in range. Are you looking at potentially adding to it through M&A?

No. Our main focus is really on organic growth. We have built such a strong organic basis -- such a strong basis for organic growth that we don't want to jeopardize that. So yes, there is consolidation in the market. Yes, there are targets in the market. And we make exceptions like we showed with the Jun Group, but it has to be really spot on really for a very good rate. Otherwise, we would rather not do it because doing M&A, as you also know from the past, it also creates focus on, let's say, the M&A cases and defocus on organic growth. So we would like to keep our focus on organic growth, and we think we can grow faster organically now than by M&A.

The next question comes from Edward James from Cantor Fitzgerald.

Congrats on the results. I've just got 3, please. Starting with -- in terms of the growth that you've seen and the acceleration growth that you've seen over the last 12 months, is there a particular customer segment which is driving that? You've already alluded to the fact that mobile games is not a large segment. So I'd just be interested in if there is a particular segment or if it's kind of pretty broad-based across sectors?

No, it is -- let's say, we're working across all sectors, and that's also shown there's no dependency on a single customer. But I have to say, let's say, our strongest growth is in -- say, in the retail. If we look on the demand side, there we're really able to -- say, to grow nicely. So the retail side is with over 50% of our demand side, the strongest segment. And then the second strongest segment on the demand side is digital and social brands with 17%. So those are the strongest growth drivers after that, it is entertainment with 10%. So retail is by far the strongest segment on the demand side.

Okay. That's really helpful. And then just on -- in terms of the organic growth guidance of -- I think the term was meaningful double digit. Could you just give us a bit of a steer in terms of what that means relative to the year that you've just had? Should we take that as kind of low double-digit mid-teens? Or should we think of that more or less in line with the organic growth that you delivered in 2024?

Yes, we don't want to give a guidance yet on it. But as already indicated, the market is growing double digits, 10% plus. And yes, we are really extremely well positioned to gain market shares on top of that. So yes, I would like to stick to our midterm guidance of 20% to 25% growth. And as we have shown and as you have seen in the past, we are able to grow faster than that, but I wouldn't promise that now.

Okay. And then just finally, just in terms of the margin outlook, I mean, on one hand, as you've already said that you've -- you're investing to take market share and accelerate growth, particularly given the backdrop within kind of ID-less Solutions being really positive. On the other hand, the Jun Group kind of annualization into numbers will be helpful from an overall margin perspective for the group. So should we -- should the base case be that margins are flat as you continue to prioritize growth over margin expansion? Or should we expect there to be some level of operating leverage as we go forward?

Yes, we will see both sides of it. If you look at the margin, I mean, getting bigger, let's say, make our margins better, getting more vertical, so between advertise and supply gives us the possibility of margin expansion. Getting better on the targeting side gives us a possibility of margin expansion. On the other hand, if we want to gain market share and also overall in the market, I would expect at a certain point, the market is consolidating, so there would be a bit more pressure on margin. So that's basically the 2 things. And then further investing is also, I think, very important. We want to further invest in growth. So yes, I would like to refer that to our midterm guidance, which is 30% to 35% EBITDA margin. And we increased that target, and that will have to do with the Jun Group acquisition indeed because we had a target of 25% to 30% after Jun Group acquisition. We increased our target to 30% to 35% EBITDA margin with a 20% to 25% EBIT margin. And if you look on the full year '24, we were on the 30% EBITDA margin on the low side, fourth quarter, we were at 34%, so on the high side. So we will be in that range. And further, yes, every extra odd dollar that we make, we will invest in also further growth on the sales side, on the product side, et cetera.

May I also just add on that point. I think just it's important to take in seasonality of the business through different quarters. So as I showed in the numbers, we typically increase the margin across the quarters. So I think just be aware of the seasonality and how that would affect Q1, Q2 and so forth going forward.

Yes, good point. Any more questions, Edward?

No, that's all.

Our next question comes from Christoffer Jennel from Inderes.

Remco and Christian, 2 questions from my side and start with the recent news around AppLovin divesting its ad portfolio. So given that both you and AppLovin has emphasized the competitive advantages of first-party data from own apps through enhanced ad tech capabilities. So how should we think about Verve's own mobile apps going forward? Do you still see them as a strategic advantage? Or should we anticipate a similar move?

Your line is difficult to hear, but if I got it right, the question is how important are our own mobile apps for, let's say, our future growth. Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay. Yes. Let's say, we still have our games portfolio. That's what we started with. We have AxesInMotion as a game studio, which especially Extreme Car Driving Simulator is a game with over 1 billion downloads. So that's really strong. But our own, let's say, apps are really very small if you look in the total supply that we have. So they are really -- they hardly play a role anymore. Where they still play a role is for testing our SDKs for improvements on the technology side. So in that sense, it makes sense to have a bit there, but the strategic value, if we look on, let's say, ad supply or also on data is very, very small. And that's the thing that also AppLovin [indiscernible] they've just sold their games portfolio as they announced. And so in that sense, our games are strategically not as important as they used to be when we started this. I hope that answers your question.

Yes, absolutely. And another question from my side. So you are currently quite early on expanding your audio capabilities and offering. And with audio maybe being one of the most untapped areas in digital advertising, could you just shed some light on how you're thinking about investing and scaling in this area going forward?

Yes. Audio is an interesting market. It's still pretty small. But if you look at consumer time spent on audio and especially also on podcast, that's increasing a lot. So in that sense, we like areas where there is strong growth and where they also are not yet -- or let's say, where there's room for innovation, let me say it that way. And audio is certainly one. So where we're really seeing very good results on podcast helping people with podcast or publishers that do podcast in getting more listeners, but also in, let's say, monetizing, of course, their ad spend. And so that's a very interesting growth area, and it's small in the total. So you don't see it in the total numbers yet, but it's absolutely a future growth area that we like to further focus on.

The next question comes from Jorg Frey from Warburg Research GmbH.

Elaborate answers already. So just some housekeeping at first. You mentioned the EUR 10 million to EUR 15 million interest expense savings from refinancing. I presume that's on an annualized basis. And what's your time line when you -- that you are eyeing for refinancing? And then secondly, The Trade Desk has -- in its conference call, they spoke a lot about their view that Google is about to exit the open Internet and the potential of that. And of course, there's clear potential for you in ID-less Solutions. Do you see anything else that we should bear in mind regarding the potential that has for you?

Thank you for your questions, Jorg. I would -- Christian, can you answer the first one on the interest and the bonds?

Yes. Yes. So I can confirm that the EUR 10 million to EUR 15 million is on an annualized basis. I will not talk specifically on time line, but we can say that we have engaged advisers to test the interest in the market. So I think from that, you can also see that it's -- you can make your own mind on what would be a potential time line.

Okay. Understood.

And then I would take your second question, Jorg. That's about the changes in the market. Yes TTD was referring to indeed opportunities by Google leaving certain segments. I've learned one thing. It's always you need to really see what's really happening. There's a lot of rumors. There's a lot of stories in the market. There's also a lot of things happening. I mean the Department of Justice looking into Google, but we have also the TikTok case, for example, in the U.S. We have, as I say, ChatGPT and so changing the search landscape dramatically. So there's a lot of changes happening. But overall, we talk about a huge market, and we feel very comfortable in our Mobile and CTV audio and Digital Out-of-Home segments where we see strong growth. And if there's extra windfall profits from people exiting stuff, so that's great. But I think with our ID-less Solutions, with our current positioning, we have so much growth opportunities already that it would only add on top of that. So I see it positively and everything that gets extra potential for us is, of course, welcome. I hope that answers your question or I tried to answer it as good as possible.

Well, yes, yes. And of course, it already helps that you are confident to generate substantial double-digit organic growth. So everything else we take as icing on the cake, so at least from my side.

Same here.

There are no more questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.

Yes, I would like to thank everybody for tuning in. And I would like to especially thank our investors and our partners, our clients for their trust. And I would also like to thank the team. They have done an awesome job in 2024, very passionate, very good and also looking forward to 2025 to continue our strong track of growth. So thank you all very much. And also happy, of course, to do one-to-ones and to go further into detail if needed.