Vietnam Technological and Commercial Joint Stock Bank (TCB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Audio Gap] Again, as I said, we probably have to go a little bit with the flow here. And given that, again, with all working from home and all of that, we're really experimenting with a different format. So -- and as I said, I think until the first -- or in the first half of the year, we continued with a very good momentum we had coming from the end of 2020. And our TOI was the main driver of our results, which has to do with a relatively strong credit growth, at the same point in time, limit expansion, which were coming actually again from reduction in our funding costs while still maintaining a relatively good asset yield. And that translated, together with a relatively strong NFI expansion too, a good PBT, as well as return on assets driven, as I said, justify the fact that means we're actually going very, very strong. CASA is roughly at the same level like where we were at the end of 2020. So -- and given the fact that the second half of the year, we usually see an expansion and an increase in CASA, we should actually be ending up slightly higher. So that is in line with our plan. And even as the competition for CASA clearly has heated up. And NPLs, at this point in time, are still low, standing at 0.4%. And we remain very, very cautious. Of course, also looking forward, and in terms of COVID, you see that we are still writing off very aggressively and also provisioning accordingly. So our provision coverage ratio is continuously increasing. Last, but not least, CAR is still very strong. It stands from -- about 15%. And there were some drops just because of the way how we shifted the loan book and what we drove from the loan book in the first half of 2021. But again, we expect that probably CAR will continue to increase as we shift a little bit more towards retail. And at the same point in time, as PBT will flow into retained earnings. So that's the highlight. So again, I think the first half, a little bit, of course, a reflection of how Vietnam did. And the second half, we will talk about a little bit later, but now Bang will give you the highlights of what I just described. Bang, over to you.

Thank you, Jens. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm very pleased to share our financial highlights for the first half of 2021. Despite the increased social distancing measures brought upon by the fourth wave of COVID during the second quarter, the performance for the quarter as well as for the half continues to reflect the strong economic recovery that we saw in the back half of 2020. TOI, as Jens mentioned, was up 52.1% year-over-year as we saw double-digit growth for both NII as well as non-NII. I won't go through all these metrics again, as Jens already highlighted them, other than to say that the key metrics, both on the revenue and cost side, performed well. And importantly, our balance sheet, asset quality, capital levels and liquidity continues to position us well for the economic recovery as well as to support our customers during this recent wave. Core earnings continue to drive our business for the second quarter and for the first 6 months of 2021. This came from not only the double-digit growth on the revenue segment, but also across our retail and corporate segments. So again, strong performance across the board and all from core nonrecurring revenues. The OpEx side, it was higher year-over-year in the quarter as we start to invest more aggressively relative to last year at this time when we were in a more defensive position, but still a little bit less than we would have for the first 6 months, as I'll go into a little bit more detail later. But overall, when you look at our 6 months results of reaching 18.1 trillion in TOI as well as VND 11.5 trillion in PBT, allowed us to achieve 58% of our full year targets announced at the AGM. Importantly, our profit after tax margins remain robust at 52% for the quarter. The next page, please. NII continue to benefit from lower funding costs. If you look at the mix of earning assets, this came from -- mainly from customer loans, which were up 35% year-over-year as well as some corporate bonds up 33% year-over-year. Collectively, they represented 79% of earning assets for second quarter 2021. Funding rates has continued to remain at low levels, given the favorable rate environment, which has contributed to a net interest margin expansion of roughly 40 basis points, which offsets the 20 basis points decline on the asset lending side. And importantly, when you look at our deposit franchise, it continues to be robust. CASA reached VND 133 trillion, which was the highest ever, up 55% from this time last year and contributing to a 46.1% cost of ratio. Altogether, this contributed to a VND 6.6 trillion net interest income amount for the second quarter. Next page, please. We saw -- this really it looks that the -- sorry, the growth in lower asset yields, again, were when we look at the mix of credit, a lot of this came from retail as well as from corporate, when you can see the credit growth overall reached 13% year-to-date, led by the strong demand on the retail mortgages which were up roughly 16% year-to-date as well as from corporates as well, up 11% year-to-date. The second quarter did see a pickup in mortgages. Housing did remain -- housing demand did remain robust even though social distancing measures did kick in. But when you look at the two, they did contribute to a little bit more on the medium to long term mix and loan mix, which was up 11% on the quarter. And then when you look at yields, credit yields, again, off by a little bit on the compression side. Some of this is a reflection of floating rates on the corporate yield side and the low yield side, but overall was offset again by the lower cost of funding. Next page, please. When you look at the portfolio on the corporate and retail side, we did see growth on both sides of our business. Worth highlighting on the FMCG side within corporates, that was up 9% quarter-over-quarter, 38% year-over-year as we continue to see a healthy pipeline developing and serving distributors as well as suppliers. We'll continue to expand it and focus on expanding some of the other economic segments, which we'll talk about in future quarters, but do see healthy pipelines across utilities and telecom, for example, but ultimately a fairly stable growth for the quarter on the corporate side. On the retail side, mortgages continue to drive the growth, representing now 79% of our overall retail portfolio. As I mentioned earlier, we still saw housing demand and focus on housing, even with the social business measures that came into place stronger in the second quarter. Next page, please. NFI reached VND 3.5 trillion for the first 6 months, up 37% year-over-year as we saw strong contributions across all segments. I'll just run down very quickly. On the bond side, we did see a larger bond pipeline in the second quarter versus first quarter, roughly 16 trillion versus VND 14.6 trillion on issuance, which led to roughly 30% growth in the quarter-over-quarter fees. Bond distribution volume side also grew very healthily over the first half with 73% year-over-year growth compared to the same period last year. Banca fees were -- continues to improve on a year-over-year basis, although there was a decline quarter-over-quarter as we did see some impact kick in, in the later part of the second quarter with social distancing measures that came into place. However, we still believe the opportunity remains very positive. Our partnership with Manulife is well positioned for us to continue to grow this business in the coming quarters. And then on the recovery overall, we did see more transaction banking activities. LC and cash settlements and FX sales were up 47% and 56% year-over-year for the quarter and 31% and 39% for the half. So overall, a very nice picture again for NFI and VND 3.5 trillion for the 6 months. Next page, please. Costs were relatively flat quarter-over-quarter, although up 30% year-over-year. As I mentioned earlier, we did spend more aggressively in the second quarter this year relative to last year as we continue to push on our investments. Even though we did plan for more ramp-up in investments, as we mentioned in our first quarter earnings announcement and [indiscernible], we were held back a bit again by some of the disruptions in COVID, which impacted some activities on the marketing side as well as some of our transformation-related initiatives, which included hiring as well as just bringing people in to support us on projects. We do see a pickup on these investments as we head into the second half, aggressively doing so at the moment, as we double down again on improving our operational resiliency to serve our customers, as well as improving and strengthening our digital assets as well, given the COVID environment and the needs for our customers. The important thing here, again, we do have a strong digital bank, but we'll continue to invest further into it with some of the initiatives that we've talked in the past as well as improving things on the corporate side. Importantly, our low CIR does give us a comfortable margin to continue to invest, without significantly impacting the P&L in the coming quarters. Next page, please. Asset quality metrics continue to be healthy, led by 0.4% NPLs as well as a 259% coverage ratio for the quarter. NPLs are not only low at an overall level, but also when we look at the different segments that we have, they're very stable and reflect the resiliency of our loan portfolio, but also the quality of our customers. As we've mentioned in the past, we focus on the affluent, the mass affluent and the top corporates, both at the wholesale corporate banking level as well as our business banking SMEs. And again, the focus, of course, of which is in the focused subsegments. We're also continuing to take opportunities to write off NPLs to keep our book healthy, and we did take additional specific provisions in the second quarter of '21, given what we were seeing with the COVID situation. The next page, please. Notwithstanding the recent outbreak, our restructured loan portfolio continues to decline both in absolute and percentage terms as we saw more recoveries in the second quarter. We are mining the situation that, as Jens mentioned, at this point and carefully speaking to our customers to see what additional support they may need. I think what's most important to highlight in this period is helping our customers, our top customers, avoid any acute credit stress as we do see signs of the economic recovery ahead and are certainly well equipped to support them. I think also worth noting is that we're in a much better position -- much better position and more experience to manage the situation however it plays out compared to this time last year when we were going through this for the first time. So a couple of things worth noting here is everything from enhanced ratings and risk models are in place now that we've been using on the corporate side are in place. We've upgraded our BB ratings model as well as our loan origination system, and went live with our Moody's platform in the second quarter of this year. We're also one of the first banks that have submitted and fully satisfied the ICAP requirements. So while the real compliance doesn't start until next year, we were first in with early consultation, preparation and review. And the scenarios we use for our stress case were also the COVID scenarios. So again, we do believe we're well managed -- well prepared to manage through the situation. However, one of the things probably if we want to talk about where we were second quarter and how we look at the back half of the year, 0.8% is where we ended the quarter. But under some of our scenarios right now, in a moderate stress scenario, we might be up 10% or 20% from the current levels. In a very severe worst-case scenario, we might be up 2x from these levels that we're seeing at the end of the second quarter. Either way, again, within our scenario of planning, and importantly, the P&L -- potential P&L implications are not material and well within our plans that we have spoken to the market before. So let's move to the next page. I think some of the comfort we have that is reflected here on this page in terms of what we're facing here as well as being able to pursue the opportunities ahead. So our capital position continues to remain robust. When we look at our absolute capital position relative to where we were this time last year or even at the beginning of the year, close to VND 84 trillion in equity. Our leverage remains very strong at 6x. And our Tier 2 -- our capital adequacy ratio is still 15.2% at the end of the quarter. At the same time, the funding mix is diversified as we have, again, a good funding, both from customers, great access to the market. But I think I'll just -- again, just for the sake of making sure this is complete. We, again, have a very strong capital position. One of the things that gives us comfort going through these periods of uncertainty with COVID, and again, being excited about the economic recovery ahead, strong equity position at the end of the quarter, VND 83 trillion, nearly 84 trillion relative to our position last year and at the beginning of this year is significantly stronger. Our leverage ratio remains robust at 6x, which gives us plenty of room to grow. And then our CAR ratio, which mentioned earlier at 15.2%, is within the range that we're comfortable with in this environment. The funding side is also, again, diversified, both from customer deposits as well as the ability to tap the professional markets, both onshore and offshore. So again, on liquidity, we remained within the regulatory requirements and again, very comfortable with our ability to fund the business as we support customers. Okay. Next page, please. So we've been using this chart again to help us understand where we stand relative to our sector peers. At the end of the second quarter, we still feel very comfortable about our positioning and managing some of the key, call it, cost levers that help us think about our competitive advantages, both on the cost and the funding side. You can see that our cost of funding continued to decline relative to the first quarter. Our net interest margin did expand as a consequence. On the cost side, we still have plenty of room to invest at a 28.1% cost-to-income ratio. We'll see where the sector comes out in the coming weeks. On the asset quality side, again, risk costs, we feel very comfortable where we stand at 0.4% NPLs, and a very robust coverage ratio to absorb any potential shocks. So overall, the snapshot here presents a good picture, especially given the current uncertainty in the market. Let me jump ahead now to the outlook as we think about the balance of the year. So internally, we've looked at the situation as we were going through both the current COVID wave as well as thinking about how the vaccination program is coming along in Vietnam. Our base case internally is that we are expecting by the second half of next year that will be back into kind of full, what we describe internally as full play. And that includes kind of international tourism recovering. And as many of you know, that has been completely offline since the second quarter of last year. As we think about what is underpinning this base case as well, vaccinations again, are underway. And until they are complete, we do expect to see continuous and selective disruption on the production consumption and export side. But again, the government has been very good to date about containing and managing business in selected areas. But until we reach herd immunity, I think we are realistic about what may happen. So we're certainly prepared for that. But I think underpinning this and what we're really looking forward to is that the broad global recovery is underway. So external demand is increasing. So it's much more, despite -- in comparison to the last year, there was a bit of a demand shock. Now the demand is back. So that is going to strengthen the recovery. And then the other pillar of this is the macroeconomic stability that Vietnam continues to have and I will go into a little bit of that in the coming pages. So again, that's the snapshot of how we see things playing out. Next page, please. So one of the pillars, again, is vaccinations -- sorry, back page. Okay. So one of the, I think, important things as we've seen across the world is the pace of vaccinations really impact the pace of recovery. So while we're off to a slow start, vaccinations are accelerating. Our analysis internally would suggest that, again, that we will be able to ramp up by the first half of 2022. One way to look at it, again, is where we are in terms of total vaccinations on a fully vaccinated basis versus one shot. So from the beginning, you can see some debates here from April until June. This latest wave was fairly contained but has accelerated from the end of June until this period now, but at the same time, vaccinations have increased. So at this point, we have 0.3% fully vaccinated and 4.1% with some partial vaccination. Now on the right-hand side, the way we're looking at is a function of both supply, demand as well as just pace of vaccinations. So we have benefited from the ability to get vaccinations from a variety of suppliers, about 105 million already committed, 55 million under negotiations, and hopefully more to come. But you can see that the chart that we look at shows that in the third, fourth quarter, there will be a significant ramp-up in vaccinations. And by the time the first half rolls around, we do believe we will be at the herd immunity under the base case. Next page, please. So I think that provides a little bit of context as we look at the back half of 2021. We came into the year with a very strong and very robust recovery. Clearly, the recent outbreak and some of the disruptions in the first quarter and into the second quarter has caused some downward revisions and reviews of the GDP forecast and so on now in terms of some of the other macro drivers for the economy. So the best thing we can say here is the government is doing what it can to contain this as quickly as possible. Consensus GDP has dropped about 1 point, 1.5 points since the beginning of the year, but still healthy relative to the 2.9% we saw for the full year of 2020. And so again, this is, I'd say, fairly fluid. It really depends on the ability for us to both contain as well as vaccinate, but we'll update the audience in the coming quarters as things play out. Next page, please. I think the important thing on the macro side within the market is that there is still ample liquidity. SBV is still looking at a target of 12% to 13% credit growth for the year. I think they'll certainly monitor the situation as things play out. And if there is a call for more credit growth to support the recovery, it seems that there is some flexibility to do so there. When we look at liquidity in terms of reserves, you can also see at this point, there are sufficient reserves at the SBV. So again, rate environment should continue to be very benign as we've seen rates at fairly low levels historically. So our FX reserves again are fairly healthy. So overall, the macro picture within Vietnam remains healthy. And so we do see again, a healthy back half as long as we can maintain and contain the COVID situation. Next page, please. So like others, we are here, first and foremost, to make sure we help our customers through this period. We've been doing it since the beginning of COVID, and this most recent wave is no different. Again, the idea behind a lot of this is to avoid the acute credit stress that might take place given some of the social distancing measures, which will close down businesses over several weeks. So this latest program we have is effective from the end of July to December. The scope, again, is customers impacted by COVID. The segments we're focused on are those that are more impacted to COVID and then those that we specifically focus on. So we can see on the corporate side, certain sectors that we focus on that are impacted will be our priorities. On the retail side, again, those absolute mass affluent customers we serve that fit certain criteria will also be eligible for additional relief. This relief will come in the form of interest rate reductions up to 1.5% on existing loans, and for new loans, up to 1%. Again, there's more details here, but we stand by ready to support the customers -- our customers that we focus on. But in addition to that, I think throughout this COVID situation, we have been focusing again on some of the noninterest type of support, which is really increasing our digital solutions and really branches solutions, digital assets to support customers as their behaviors will likely change and their needs and demands will change post COVID. So a lot of the focus is on these investments to support, again, not only our operational resiliency, but those of our top customers as well. So with that, I think we'll go into the last page of the financial section and outlook, which talks a little bit about guidance for the back half of the year. So [Technical Difficulty] 6 months, a few things here. I'll just quickly run through this. There are a couple of shifts from early part of the year. Again, cost of funds continues to be very competitive for us at this point. We saw strong first half results, and we do see our levels being, again, still below that of last year. As Jens mentioned, we are seeing a relatively strong CASA ratio. We do think we'll be at this or slightly higher levels between now and the end of the year. Need to wait and see. But again, the cost of franchise remains a very strong deposit franchise. On the NIM side, while we did see a strong pickup in the first half given the rate environment and low cost of funding with some of the interest rate support and just thinking about the competitive situation in the second half, that's still, for us, kind of somewhere in a sideway type of view at this point as we look at the back half of the year. Noninterest income growth, very robust through the first half of this year. But again, linked to net interest margin as well as just credit quotas, we do see potentially that being a little bit lower between now and the rest of the year and potentially lower for the full year. NFI, we have gone from -- NFI, we have gone from up at the beginning of the year in terms of guidance to more of a sideway motion. 31.5% is where we were at the half. But again, given some of the constrained activity because of social distancing, again, we're looking more kind of at a sideways situation at this point that we'll continue to update as we head into the second half of the year. I think the rest of the CRR ratio, again, more investments, NPLs potentially up. As we mentioned, we were at very, very low levels at the end of last year, although the portfolio has held up very well through the first half. Again, as we look ahead, we're taking a slightly more prudent and cautious stance. So that's kind of where that guidance is. And then lastly, on credit costs, we did take more credit cost write-off last year, and we were thinking about having it lower this year, but just with, again, the environment at this point, we're taking a more cautious position. And so again, more of a sideways from down before. So I think overall, the picture still looks very healthy for the entire year. It is a bit low at this point, but we are cautiously optimistic that between now and the end of the year as we hope we contain COVID and continue the recovery, these overall financial results will still lead to ability to meet and not exceed expectations. I think with that, that closes this section. I'll hand it back to Jens just to provide a little bit on strategy updates and any other updates that we're planning to highlight.

Thanks. Okay. And again, as we said, we're probably into the Q&A going a little bit deeper into the details of what we're seeing for the reminder of the year. There were a couple of questions coming from the audience, and that's where we're picking it up. However, we should also be just trying to make the point that while this, of course, is all going on, needs to be managed on a day-to-day basis, I think some of the secular trends are still holding up. And secular trends, I mean digitization, when we transform the business, et cetera. So what we thought is we give you every quarter a little bit of an update of what's currently happening. So just to start on that one, can you go to the next page. So you see that, of course, a lot of the shift to digital is continuing. And of course, during the social distancing times, there is, of course, even more incentive to use remote services, not just banking services, but e-commerce services, et cetera. So overall, if you look through the numbers on a year-on-year basis, be it on the e-banking customers, be it transaction volumes, transaction values, they're all up around 100% for someone like us who probably were a little bit ahead of the curve compared to some of our competitors. So from that perspective, I think we're just continuing to do actually very well. And at the same point in time, if you look into the deposit taking, for the first time, it is -- we are basically seeing that the amount of deposits we're taking online is higher than what we are taking through the bank channel, which again is a massive shift compared to what we've seen beforehand. And again, the total amount of transactions which are going through the branches now are actually below 2%. Next page, please. So one of the key areas we really want to focus on is actually that we use the clouds much more aggressively. And this is, of course, also linked to the numbers I've just shown because if you suddenly start moving up on your transaction volume by 100% over a year, and to do this on a noncloud-based infrastructure, it actually is a massive challenge. And we have worked very, very hard to make sure that some of the hiccups we had last year in May are not happening anymore. But again, I think it's a constant better to start and flexing up the capacity. So the idea is to really move much, much more aggressively into the cloud. And again, from a strategic rationale, I think that's pretty clear. We try to capture that on the next Page please. So I think this one is basically storage on compute resources, but I think the other one is also that we are actually able to start moving a lot of our standards of our operating procedures of our architecture to something which is much more in line with global best practices, which should get us a better ROI, faster time to market and just much more time spent on making sure that the lights are not going off, but they will be connected immediately in a way. In order to do that, we signed a strategic partnership with AWS, which in the current form and the way how we're doing it is probably unique in that market. While others are start moving bits and pieces on to the cloud, the idea is really to work together with AWS and showing what can be done if you really start aggressively moving all your infrastructure into the cloud as far as possible and as far as allowed by the regulatory authorities. In that context, we're working very closely with SBV to make sure that they are also very comfortable as we start moving more and more of our infrastructure up, including core banking systems, including some of our core applications to make sure that we are kind of still in very, very safe territory. Next page, please. So what we're really trying to achieve is that we're really getting away from all these legacy infrastructure that we are actually using data at the core, and as we have said, there are three key elements in our strategy -- it's people, it's digital, and it's data. So that is one of the key enablers here that we're actually aiming to really get the data into a coordinated form. But more importantly, that we use that data and start putting it back into our decision systems and giving it back to customers directly through our online platforms, or that we're actually giving it to our RMs in their decision-making in their day-to-day working environment. So there's a lot of stuff that we are currently working on, and we are in the first phase. And we're putting a lot of data right now first into a data lake, which starts moving to the cloud, and then we start working from there around areas of hyperpersonalization. We're thinking about increasing a much better decision-making models based on artificial intelligence and machine learning, which will inform not just our risk underwriting, but actually also all our decision-making when it comes to which products to offer to which customer and at what point in time. We will not use just our data, we will actually use third-party and unstructured data, also putting and connecting to other parts of our ecosystem in order to make sure that we can really understand our customer very holistically. So -- what is -- one of the key areas we really want to work on is that we really are able to personalize in customer experiences so that we actually really have the right conversations with the right orders at the right time. And the cloud and what we're doing there is actually the key enabler towards that vision. That is where then some of the strategic partnership with AWS is coming in. It's not just that we will be moving our infrastructure up to the cloud. We actually work with them on strategic innovation projects where we will define jointly on which areas do we really want to innovate, how will we use some of AWS capabilities and our access to our customers to create completely new experiences, which will deliver on our mobile platform for corporates as well as for individual customers, which will be upgraded before the end of the year. This is a journey, but again, that's also why we signed up with AWS for a beginning of our 5-year time commitment from both sides. So the core part is actually the data side. But then the digital, when you talk about how do we actually really create new experiences, then enabling element is one of the key components we're working together with an AWS. And the other element on that is actually the Peoplesoft. If we can go to the next page. It's very clear that what we try to achieve and what we want to do and Bang already had talked about it, we are not finding enough people to really create that kind of experience. So -- and we are working together with AWS and upskilling our people and at scale, and we're working on joint programs to hire and find better people. We are trying to develop programs to go to university together to make sure that we can actually entrust in credits right from the beginning in joining that effort. And AWS will deploy certain training programs on which they have never deployed anywhere here in any of the neighboring countries, which we will deploy these ones here for the first time in Vietnam in order to make sure that we can accelerate the buildup of cloud and engineering capabilities as fast as we can. And so that should actually give us the agility, should increase productivity, but also actually increase operational resilience, while at the same point in time, enhance and give satisfaction because a lot of the work people are doing right now working on infrastructure, which is kind of sometimes prone to come down because of all the massive increase in load on the systems. All that should be much, much easier. That makes it easier to handle and also free up and capacity for our staff to work on things which are much more interesting and innovative, while at the same point in time, making sure that they actually improve their own space. So again, there's a lot of things you will hear about that with AWS going forward. And we will share more over the time to come. But again, it was one of the key aspects we're working on in the first half of the year to make sure that this is actually in place because it was one of the key enablers we needed to put in place for this 3-point strategy of data, digital and talent, and we're actually very happy that we were able to close that in the second quarter. So I think that's basically it from my side. [ Ling ], probably over to you.

Thank you, Jens. We'll take a short break. We'll be back by no later than 3:55 to try to get things going again. So if you have any questions, go ahead and do that while we'll gather the other ones that have been sent over during the present time.

Welcome back, everyone. We'll start the Q&A session now. And the first question is on credit quota and credit growth, and this comes from [ TCBS and MBS ]. So there are several questions that I'll combine into one which is, has Techcombank received a new credit quota from the SBV? And how much is it? It's been reported in certain press that Techcombank has received 17%. Is that in line with your expectation? And what is your expected credit growth for the full year? And Jens, could you address this one, please?

Sure. Thanks for the question. So it's actually not our policy to comment on the individual quota which has been granted to us. And we know that there are numbers out in the market. And usually, people are well -- more or well less informed. But I think probably a couple of comments I would like to make. So we still believe that given the current environment, given the current on the way how the inflation develops and the initial comments, which SBV made that they're looking for around 12% to 13% sector growth, are still intact. So as we know in the past, that means that some will get a little bit more, some will get a little bit less. And those who get more are probably those banks who are relatively strong on the capital side and have supported in the past with strong credit growth and have the right risk management and procedures in place are probably relatively advanced in the adoption of Basel II, et cetera, which would probably be all criteria which are fitting us. And so if you believe there is still -- and SBV still is going towards the 12% to 13% sector growth, you would expect us to be rather at the higher end or whatever the variations are SBV usually is granting. So far, we are well within on the quota granted. We are within our planning parameters. So when we gave you the outlook and the update, we expect that we can actually manage towards these growth scenarios, which will rather be only that we might be going a little bit slower if we believe we don't find the right risk return profiles or that we think that certain things are overheating. But at this point in time, as I said, 12% to 13% is the sector growth around that and usually being at a higher end and top end of the quotas granted. And we don't see any change from the current allocation SBV has granted us. And as I said, this is within the bank's parameters, which we have given or which Bang just discussed in terms of NIM overall and credit growth, et cetera.

Great. Thank you, Jens. The next question is also related to COVID. I'll ask Jens to respond as well. Given the ongoing COVID wave, fourth wave, how is the bank handling the impacts? And how will it impact Techcombank's overall growth this year? And this is a question on the demand for credit as well as the impact on the bank's exposure given that the concentration in some of the corporate credit and in ReCoM and mortgages, which are backed by real estate collateral. So this comes from JPMorgan, UBS and Driving Capital.

Okay. So in terms of the overall fourth wave, as we said, we are still probably in flux. But as in the past, we are standing by our customers, and we will help them through these kind of difficult times. And therefore, in terms of the facilities we are providing in terms of, if somebody needs working capital, somebody has to start bridging certain cash flow disruptions, and we have provided these lines. And to be fair, we are not so much exposed to those sectors which works experiencing these kinds of disruptions like tourism, airlines, taxi, et cetera. And as people have rightfully pointed out, we are in some other areas very much in real estate but also in fast-moving consumer goods, in utilities, which are rather longer-term projects which are not so much affected and also they are run by companies which have a relatively stable and diversified cash flow stream. So from that perspective, we don't think there will be a lot of disruption, I think we still see credit demand because from the experiences people had in 2020, they probably see how this will pan out and even with, let's say, kind of -- maybe it doesn't take 2 months, maybe it will take 3 months, but with the scenario which Bang also described, it's a little bit clear how it will play out in the long term. And then a lot of these secular trends, especially when it comes to read estate, they are still intact. So our real estate exposure has held us in pretty good stead up to now, and we don't see any problems on the developer side. We also actually don't see so much problems on the retail side, on the demand side. As we have said, 16% was our year-on-year credit growth on the mortgage side. And we still see that people, given the volatility in the stock markets, are going back and trying to invest in real estate and not just for investment purposes, but really just and trying to buy it for home and housing purposes. So again, we believe that is pretty much intact. One of the key points right now we are seeing is that documents can just not be processed because that requires physical interaction. And therefore, documents cannot be collected, documents cannot be processed. But I think probably we will rather see pent-up demand which might then either show itself in the fourth quarter 2020 or it really takes very, very long and will only be coming in, in the first quarter 2021, but it's not a breaking in the trend. So again, I think we are prepared to help and support. We have already increased our exposures on the SME side. We have provided facilities. I think a lot of our other customers are relatively good, understanding, and we don't see kind of any liquidity constraints also on what banks showed before and the market is still relatively flush with liquidity. And our exposure to sectors where we would see major, major disruptions is actually not so big. So again, we will -- we're still holding with our current and planning scenarios. Of course, we're doing the stress test. The stress test would rather probably see itself in some ways of the NPLs rather than that certain credit targets would not be met. I think there's still enough good credit out there given how it's currently evolving. And as I said, yes, we see the disruptions. But is it fundamentally shifting, especially larger project investment decisions and all of that, not to a certain extent. Might be getting a little bit slower, but we're talking about delays of 1, 2 months or something like that, then somebody who's fundamentally rethinking is what they are doing.

Great. There's a follow-up question from Alex Short of Fiera Capital. If you looked at this year, do you believe that it's worse in terms of COVID with all the lockdown that we're hearing that's happening in Vietnam and in the region? I guess as you look at the impact on economic activities, GDP growth and impacts on loans. Jens?

So clearly, the -- yes, sorry. So the numbers in terms of infections, et cetera, are clearly much larger than what we had beforehand, right? I think the way that we're still finding cases in non-quarantine, non-core areas is clearly onboarding. However, if you see the overall numbers, and you think about second quarter and in second quarter 2020 was, I think GDP was at 0.3%. I don't think that we will see that, right? And I believe already in the first half and the results, which we saw in terms of overall GDP were running at 4.5, 5-ish. Even if it will be right now coming to an end, which we're not seeing, right? We would still be roughly in the 2020 environment. So I think the real biggest question is, are we getting affected in the big industrial products because I think surrounding us, at least in the big market, China, U.S., Europe, there's clearly an increase in demand. So there's increasing demand for goods. So the question is exports should actually be able to hold up if we can produce. And so the question is, are we having enough control on the production side that production sites are not really closing down because of COVID, et cetera. And I think that then comes down to the kind of business continuity planning for a lot of the manufacturing sites and a lot of these industrial estates. So again, we don't know, and I don't want to be kind of looking to a crystal ball here, but I believe that from an economic perspective, we will not see as high an impact as what we saw in 2020, where ultimately, domestic demand kept us up because global demand were collapsing. Now, global demand is there. It's much more a question, can we basically participate in the supply chain or is that getting muted. And I believe there are enough elements in place. It will be 1 or 2 months where we will not going with the full capacity, but it should not completely affect the way how we are operating as a country. And that means then also operating as a bank because as long as that's happening, there is demand, there's loan demand, people are getting salaries, et cetera. So net-net, I think our planning scenarios even in worst cases, are not seeing a situation like 2020, even if the numbers might be higher, the infection rates, et cetera.

Great. Thank you. The next question is for Bang, and this comes from [ Linh ] at SSI. How much provision was made for your restructured loans in second quarter of 2021 under circular 03?

Linh, let me -- maybe I'll answer the question this way. If you look at, I think, Page 13 of our presentation, the specific provisions we took for the quarter was VND 0.4 trillion and page before this, and that was captured within the VND 0.4 trillion. I think the way we're looking at it again is more how we -- how does the whole year shape up? Is there a lot more stress that's coming with the planning scenarios, as Jens mentioned. We don't feel that at this point, whether in our various stress scenarios moderate or even more troubled cases that this number is going to be material in terms of P&L and to large share, credit costs. I think it's worth noting again that we've been spending a lot of time looking at our restructured portfolio. The key focus there, again, is supporting our customers, right? So as needed, these were high-quality customers, acute credit stress, knowing that we want to support them until we got out of the COVID situation with again, belief that on the rebound, these are all credit performing and creditworthy customers. And so again, the -- maybe the boundaries that we've talked about before, how we're sizing it up again is when we look at the various scenarios and look at the size of our restructured portfolio under those scenarios, there's not a material P&L impact for the full year.

Okay. Thanks, Bang. Related to that then is the COVID impact on the full year guidance. This comes from Ruchir Desai, Asia Frontier as well as JP Asset Management and TCBS. What is the impact of COVID-19 on the bank's asset quality so far? And will it -- is the bank changing its business targets? And what are some of the different scenarios under this fluid COVID-19 situation?

Okay. Thank you for that question. At this point, we're not really changing our guidance for the year as of mid-June, even at this point. I think we were pretty conservative coming into this year. We're now more than a year into kind of on and off COVID disruptions. So again, very conservative as we've rolled out kind of managed our planning for 2021, both in terms of a very optimistic case. And then again, scenarios where COVID would pop up again. So again, no major impact in terms of guidance. When we look at asset quality, a couple of things to note. One is looking at the restructured portfolio. Again, lot of high-quality customers. We've seen the repayments there come off quite a bit and work itself down as seen by the absolute levels as well as percentage levels. Certainly monitoring the situation now for customers that may again enter into a pit of stress that will be there to support them. We certainly have the capacity to do so, and that is the #1 priority. I think when we look at loans and asset quality for those that came on after Circular 01, again, higher-quality customers, a reflection of the, again, continuing enhanced risk models and credit policies that we have. So again, that's kind of internal. Now that we've been through a year of this, just better execution and better understanding of how the COVID situation has impacted our top customers. And then lastly, again, just balance sheet strength. I think that's where, again, we're prepared to absorb and support. And that's where you see, again, the focus on resilience in terms of the coverage ratio and then again, the performance of the NPLs through this period. So again, no changes at this point. We're monitoring, and everything is still within the scenario plan that we have. So other than some of the points I mentioned on the outlook for '21, you can see, again, [Technical Difficulty] won't materially impact our results for the year.

Thanks, Bang. The next question is also for you, and it's on CAR. For 2 quarters, the CAR ratio has declined. And in the past, the bank has mentioned that 15% to 16% is a comfortable level. And so what is your expectation for our CAR going forward in 2021 and 2022?

Sure. Again, CAR is a function of the numerator and denominator. You can see that our numerator has continued to grow very strongly as we were retaining pretty much all of our earnings. So that just goes straight into equity and that's increasing in terms of Tier 1. And then on the other side, it's kind of a reflection, again, our credit growth, credit quota and where that goes on the corporate and retail side. So through the balance of last year and into this year, we did see, again, resilience on the corporate side of the balance sheet and more demand on the corporate side relative to retail. I think all things being equal, the risk weighted ratio for the corporate side is slightly higher, roughly around 110% thereabouts for our wholesale book, roughly 100% for our business book, compared to closer to 70% for our retail book. So we do see growth -- healthy growth on both sides that, again, through this COVID period, a bit more on the corporate side. We do expect the retail side to pick up, which will lower the risk weighted ratio, which will support, again -- a pickup again on the CAR ratio. Now that being said, running different scenarios, again, we're within the ranges we're comfortable with. If there's opportunities to grow a little bit more aggressively, again, that may come off a little bit more depending on where. But I think just overall, when we look at our overall capital position, we're not particularly concerned at this point. We have access to funding. We've said we can self-fund the business. And we're still a very, very healthy margin above where the minimum regulatory requirements are.

Okay. Thanks, Bang. Next question is on CASA from [indiscernible] at Dragon Capital and [ Linh ] at KMC. The current account balance was flat versus December. And in general, the CASA account was relatively flat in the last two quarters. Could you speak to a little bit about what's happening with CASA and your expectation for the rest of the year?

Sure. Maybe I'll start with the highlight is, again, VND 133 trillion in CASA is the highest we've ever had. So that, for us, shows that there's still, again, a very strong deposit franchise. We're never too particularly focused on any quarter. It's more about the trend, and you've seen the trend in our CASA ratio over the last several quarters and over the last couple of years has picked up. So we do expect to see, again, pretty good growth there. As we head into the back half of the year, we do see more CASA increasing. There was some seasonality between first and second quarter. But the aim remains the same. We see secular trends that should continue to support CASA growth. And that's, again, the move to cashless and then unbanked to banked. We also, again, very focused on our strategies and creating customer value propositions that make us the main transaction bank or main operating account for our corporate and retail customers. So a lot of the CVPs will be rolling out over the next couple of quarters, should again continue to create the conveniences for our customers to want to transact more within the Techcombank ecosystem. So I think, look, the competition is there. I think everyone has caught on to the importance of CASA as a low-cost funding strategy, but we're still amusingly comfortable with where we are and where we're headed as we look at the next couple of quarters.

Great. Thanks. The next question is for Jens. And it's from [indiscernible] at Dragon Capital. Techcombank has mentioned about expanding more aggressively into secondary mortgages. What are some of the main challenges and the differences between the two markets between primary and secondary mortgages? And what were the proportion of each for the bank?

Okay. Thanks [indiscernible]. So the major difference between the two is probably the way how you acquire, right? Because if you're going for prime mortgages which is really putting yourself in the middle of -- in the middle of development and people are coming to you, compared to secondary mortgage where you really try to find and understand who is right now in the market for that secondary mortgage. So I think probably the matching between sell and buy is a little bit more complicated. The question is really about good quality leads and getting good quality leads. That is clearly more complicated on the secondary mortgage side, and that's also why whenever we wanted to scale it up, we just really needed to make sure that we understand exactly who are the good customers and what do we want to offer. We looked into that. I think we created a much better value proposition right now for our customers just in terms of how easy it is to do the whole paperwork, transfer of assets, especially given the fact that we're only financing those with Red Book and how that's actually will be working and also from the pure documentary side. And at the same point in time, that is clearly also an area where we use actually our funding advantage to just be more aggressively on the pricing side when we thought there is a customer which we really want to bank. In terms of the overall proportionate, used to be maybe [ 25% ] maybe a quarter on our book maybe a year back. At this point in time, it starts moving rather more to 1/3 of the book maybe at the end of the year. So -- and while there is a change over 18 months, it's also not completely drastically. As I said, we are carefully treading in that market and just want to make sure that all the key principles which held us in a very, very good stead in the past, which is understanding our customers, being clear on how we get the collateral, not being too aggressive on going to value, et cetera, et cetera, that this is all still and very much under control. But again, so far, we are actually pretty comfortable with the secondary market, especially also as some of the primary developments -- of the developments were a little bit kind of held back. And it actually still helped us to expand our mortgage book in line with the credit growth we were aspiring for, for this year.

And Jens, related to that, do you have any concerns on the collateral value underlying the mortgages?

So again, we always used to be very conservative. And I think if you see that still a lot of the collateral of the valuations of properties, at least the ones we are financing, are still going up. And I believe there might be a little bit of concerns if people were overstretching themselves starting getting into kind of leveraged financing, and then trying right now and because they need to sell down. But if they don't time the market, therefore, prices are coming down, et cetera. But to be fair, we have tried very hard to avoid these kind of any financing mechanisms. So from a collateral valuation side, we're actually still very much okay. And we're looking into that. But even, again, if we stress test the scenario -- stress test and the collateral price, et cetera, we are still within very comfortable territory.

Okay. Thank you. Jens, the next question is for you, and it's on -- could you share a little bit more information or update us on the cooperation between Techcombank and Masan with WinMart? And this comes from [indiscernible]. And then related to that is what are you doing to ensure the operating efficiency? And what kind of potential do you see in this area?

Thanks for the question. Again, I think that is something we are, right now, looking very much into, and we are running a couple of pilot projects where we are kind of, at this point in time, being very simply just putting like transaction office into WinMart and seeing what's happening, what is the customer reaction. We're doing a lot of underground surveys and research. Again, I think the model is, of course, in theory, very clear and progressive, right? It basically says, given the fact that you are anyway going to do your shopping on a WinMart and all of this, why can you not combine it with a lot of other things, which you need to do anyway. And one of that could be banking. At the same point time, you would also say because you need to go to a bank, you can also do your shopping. So it just increases footfall, and you use the same infrastructure. And it's very clear that in markets like Thailand, its hugely successful model for somebody like 7-Eleven with 20,000 outlets in the country, which I think is a little bit like what Masan and WinMart wants to model themselves after. So the real question, as was asked is what is the operational efficiency of that model. And there is, of course, a difference between acquisition, which could still be assumed by putting some kind of people or transaction offers temporarily into a branch. But once people are comfortable, you see also from the numbers I shared before, and people are start moving much more to digital services and digital channels. So then the question is what kind of digital services can we actually provide in that outlet. So one of the questions we have to deal with from an operational efficiency perspective is how do we switch the acquisition model, which might still be much more based on human interaction, human interfaces. How can we switch that over time towards a service model, which is much more digital in nature and can use the infrastructure of WinMart. And that is, right now, what we are figuring out, what we're trying to develop, what we're trying to understand. At the same point in time, we also have, of course, to work with the regulator who is having a great understanding of what agent banking should be doing or can do at this point in time and that we also have to take into consideration. And so therefore, in our cooperation with WinMart right now, these are some of the topics we're trying to understand, we are trying to develop. And if we have something more, we will share it. But at this point in time, it's really at the exploratory stage where we're having a couple of pilots on different formats running in order to understand on how that model could actually really work. But assuming we could combine the acquisition efficiency, and there is acquisition efficiency of a WinMart outlet, combined with the service efficiency of a digital model, that would be very promising, and that is what we have reached for.

Great. Thank you. The next question, I'll ask Jens to answer as well. I'm going to combine a couple of them together, and it's relating to e-wallet, QR and digital banking. And this comes from [ Thanh ] at Maybank Kunming and [indiscernible] Capital. The question is around NAPAS is launching VietQR, which is the national payment rail. And what -- what does Techcombank plan? And what are the plans for cooperating with e-wallets, the relationship with VinID? And then that -- we'll fold that into what is Techcombank's approach to digital banking? And what does -- what do you see as the form of digital banking that the bank will play in?

Okay. So that's a very broad ranging question. So let me try to share a couple of perspectives. Clearly, it is part of our strategy, is one of our key strategic trust to be the most convenient transaction bank. And being the most convenient transaction bank, at this point in time, clearly means you have to have some connectivity to e-wallets, you have to have a QR code. We should also be clear that this is, by no means, the most effective and convenient way to pay. And it affects how the banking system has developed or the payment system has developed in this market. But a QR code or a wallet is not the most convenient way to transact. The most convenient way is an account-to-account payment. And usually, it would be based on NFC technology where you just go, you tap your phone, it's not with QR code or something like that. You just tap your phone like you would tap your credit card, and payment is done account-to-account. We know that this is not the case right now. And on the other hand, we also actually worked very closely with NAPAS, who's seen exactly the same picture, that they are actually saying we need to provide these kind of rails from account-to-account payment, which at this point in time is not in the market. So therefore, again, if you come and saying, I want to be the most convenient transaction bank, you have to work with the -- with the existing payments -- rails or payment behaviors, which are existing in the market, and therefore, connectivity to QR, connectivity to e-wallet is actually important. And what you will see is that as we relaunch our mobile app later this year, a lot of these functionalities will actually be in there. But again, from a digital banking perspective, we believe that there are much better ways to actually create customer convenience. So we will clearly work with these partners to make sure that we provide these services as they are currently in the market. But we really think about personalized kind of an immediate instance, transactions where your kind of payment becomes even kind of somewhere in the background, then this is not an e-wallet, this is not a QR code. A QR code is a very convenient element. But again, I think it's still -- it's a bridging mechanism, which will be with us for quite some time. So short answer. Ultimately, we want to be the primary transaction bank. Therefore, we need to be connected to these tools. We need to offer these connectivities. We will offer these connectivities as we relaunch app. And at the same point in time, we're constantly striving also together with our credit card partners like Mastercard, Visa, where we just signed with both parties 5-year strategic partnerships to basically make sure that we even have better offerings than the ones which are currently in the market. And again, NAPAS is one of the key players we really want to engage with and want to work with in order to make sure that we can provide better experiences than even the ones which we currently have in the market to all and different use customers.

Great. Thank you, Jens. Next question is for Bang, and it's on the interest rates and NIM. Recently, it was reported in the press that there was a meeting amongst all the banks with the Vietnam Bankers Association, where some banks had proposed plans to help customers with lower interest rate. I believe in the main presentation, you had talked about some of this, and [indiscernible] of PVI Asset Management wants to know will this have -- what impact will this have on NIM and PBT in the second half?

Sure. So again, under various scenario plans, including this current interest rate subsidy, we've looked at various scenarios throughout the year. And I think our targets that we've put out there reflect, again, what I said earlier, about a very conservative view on the year. So even with this introduction of these new initiatives to support customers, that is still captured within our planning scenarios. I think the reality is we are in the business of long-term customer relationships. We certainly understand we're operating in a competitive environment, but at the same time, one with very positive secular trends. So again, we do understand where we want to play, where we want to put our efforts. We are working with the top of both retail and customer segments, and we know where we want to invest. I think from a CVP perspective, cost is one factor, but there's others, as Jens mentioned, convenience and services and drives where again focusing our efforts and investing in those areas. And ultimately, I think whether it's yields or how we think about it, the ability for us to manage our key cost levers is what's going to keep us very competitive and where we choose to compete. So that's, again, the funding cost, which you've seen is very low at this point relative to the sector. Our risk cost, again, is very robust, given at historical levels despite the market challenges right now and then just the OpEx discipline. And within that, as Jens has talked about and I've mentioned before, we are investing heavily in improving our CVPs and lowering the cost to serve. I think all of this will ultimately be reflected. But long and short of it, I do think there -- the NIMs have been very strong through the first half of the year. We have changed our view at this point, given some of the uncertainty in the market to say that we're, again, more in a sideways -- not even change sideways, maintain our views that given the uncertainty, we'll still take a bit of a sideways view on net interest margins. We may be surprised on the upside, depending on the recovery. But at this point, again, you can see where our views are and guidance is for the year. And that's, again, all within the set scenario planning that we had from the beginning of the year and then updated for the half.

Okay. Thanks, Bang. Just as a related question from Kato Makuro on the guidance that the bank has given. At the AGM, PBT guidance was VND 19.8 trillion. And given the first half results, would that mean there's a significant slowdown in the second half?

At this point, we don't see as Jens mentioned, we would have to really drop off a cliff for that to happen. If we look at what played out last year and the strength of the first half on just GDP growth and then kind of breaking down the drivers from there. We do see, again, the ability for the government to contain as they take very aggressive measures to do so. We do see vaccinations ramping up. And we still see business activity. So we did start the year being a bit more cautious on our estimates. We have clearly over-delivered in the first half given some of the positive macro backdrops and business rebound as we've mentioned in this earnings call. In the second half, we still remain cautiously optimistic as evidenced again by some of the guidance we put here for our full year outlook.

Okay. Great. Next question is for Jens. We just have time for a couple more questions. But Jens, on Banca, could you update us on bancassurance growth? And how do you see the iTCBLife initiative contributing to the business. This comes from [ Thanh ] at Maybank Kunming.

Sure. Thanks for the question, [ Thanh ]. So Banca and as we showed, I think it's up 40%, 50% year-on-year. We actually see that the investments we've made in the past, especially in terms of turning a little bit around our distribution model, start paying off. And iTCBLife, which is a tool, which we're giving to since April, April 2021, to every single branch and all the people in the branches, and which allow a need-based and customer conversation to really make sure people understand what insurance can do for them, and we're not really going with product push, but seeing how that fits into the overall needs-based coverage of our customer. This product actually -- or this tool has helped to increase productivity since April roughly by 25%, 30%. Again, I think productivity is one point. The other one is, and I made this beforehand, we want to make sure that we are not misselling an insurance product, especially as we see a lot of ILP growth where if other markets are anything to take some lessons from, have a little bit of tendency of being oversold, especially in the booming stock market just for people then to realize that in the end, there is actually quite some underlying risk. So we want to make sure that what we are advising is actually the right product with the full understanding. So this iTCBLife is the tool and we still need to work out a couple of kinks. One big issue, for example, it was not completely linked with the systems of Manulife. So there was still a break in the flow, which hopefully, by the fourth quarter this year, we will be able to heal. So that then really from the moment that you have the conversation all the way to submission, this thing flows all the way down to Manulife systems and therefore, turnaround time should be much, much faster. So again, I think the tool we use it also a little bit as an experiment, how quickly can we work with fintechs to get something to market. I think it has shown good results. We will continue to expand on it. And as we said, given our aspirations on the bancassurance side and what we currently see, and we clearly will build on that and make that as one of the core tools, and we would get to our relationship managers and our advisers to make sure that they actually deliver the right value proposition to our customers.

Great. Thanks, Jens. And the last question is for Bang. It's on liquidity. Comes from Ha at HSC. Bang, the short-term funding to medium term -- medium long-term loan ratio was 39% at the end of the second quarter. How is the bank addressing this ratio as the SBV will lower it beginning in October of this year?

Thanks for that question, Ha. We go into the year knowing that these actions will be taken by the SBV. So again, all of our planning works within the ability to continue to meet the guidelines in the SBV while meeting the demand from our customers and ultimately executing on the strategy and delivering on our financial model for the next 5 years. So we do have plans to diversify funding to ensure we have the medium to -- the right medium to long-term funding. As you know, from last year, we did raise $500 million of syndicated loan, up from $300 million. We are in the market now with another transaction similarly, but even with the improved structure in terms of both 3 and 5 years, and again, interest is very robust. So we do feel that we will have that in place to address any issues around the funding mix. And again, we'll be able to term out our medium and long-term funding. So this is just part of a regular exercise that we have as we further diversify the balance sheet as the business grows and then the demand for our customers grow. We have said before, mortgages remains a very important part of our business. And to do so, we will need to increase funding. I think as we move up the regulatory maturity in terms of adapting Basel II and then Basel III, there are also some terms in there related to net stable funding, which will reward us for the strong CASA and deposit franchise we have that will address, hopefully, or replace some of these guidelines that are in place right now from the SVB. But overall, again, not an issue for us. We have planned for it -- planned for it, and we'll be able to again meet these guidelines while still supporting the growth of the business between now and the end of the year and then obviously planning into next year as well.

And Bang, just to link to that is a question from [ Linh ] at SSI and [indiscernible] on the increase in loans from credit institutions. Is that related to some increases on the loan side that your medium and long-term funding that you're talking about?

Yes. So I think it's a balance of two things. One is the -- we have drawn down a portion of a commitment on the syndicated loan already. The other thing that we have seen as we optimize our balance sheet and funding costs is very attractive rates in the interbank market. So we have increased interbank borrowings where we need for short term. But at the same time, been able to access medium and long-term funding through the offshore syndicated loans. So again, we've been able to balance that while still maintaining, again, a strong deposit franchise.

Okay. Thanks, Bang. That concludes the Q&A session and the first half 2021 financial presentation for Techcombank. Apologies again for the technical difficulties. And we will make the presentation and the webcast recording available over the next couple of days on the IR website. Thanks again, and see you next quarter.