Viking Therapeutics, Inc. (VKTX) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

My name is Hardik Parikh. I'm an equity research analyst at JPMorgan covering Pharmaceuticals. Delighted to have here today, Brian Lian, CEO of Viking Therapeutics. I'll turn the stage over to him for a brief presentation. before we go into our Q&A. Thank you.

Thanks to JPMorgan for the invitation. It's great to be here. We've got a great schedule. So really appreciate it. I'll be making some forward-looking statements today. I'd refer anybody hearing this presentation to the Securities and Exchange Commission website for the most current information on Viking Therapeutics. So we're based in San Diego, we're focused on a portfolio of novel therapeutics for metabolic and endocrine diseases. We're going to spend most of the time today on our metabolic disease programs that's highlighted by a peptide called VK2735, which is a dual agonist of the GLP-1 and GLP receptors currently in a Phase III program called the VANQUISH program, we have an oral formulation of the same molecule that is just completed the Phase I study last summer, late last summer, and we are submitting those data for the European conference in obesity in the second quarter of this year. Then we have an amylin program as well. I hope to file an IND with that program later this quarter. We have a couple of earlier stage or additional programs we're not actively developing on the thyroid receptor space. So VK2809 is a thyroid receptor beta agonist for MASH completed a successful Phase IIb study. and VK0214, another thyroid beta receptor for X-linked adrenoleukodystrophy that's been through a successful Phase Ib study. This is kind of a graphical representation of the pipeline here, VK2735 in the registration program, 2 Phase III trials in progress. We also have a Phase I maintenance study that we just announced last week has fully enrolled. We expect to read out those data around the middle of the year [indiscernible] third quarter. With the oral program, Phase IIa is complete and then with the amylin agonist moving into an IND later this quarter. So moving more into the peptide hormone program. We started working on these compounds back in 2019. We looked at the GLP-1 monoagonist, and we have I think a good family of potent mono agonists. We also have the dual agonist, which I'll talk about today. And we also spend time on the triple agonist where glucagon was added and the glucagon didn't necessarily present any additional incremental efficacy. So we really prioritize the dual GLP-1/GIP agonist VK2735 was selected as the the lead compound. We have 2 follow-ons, IND ready with the 2735 compound, we completed and read out data from a Phase I SAD/MAD study in the first half of 2023. Followed that with a Phase II study in the first half of '24 and then started the Phase III program last summer, VANQUISH registration program. With the oral formulation, we've completed the Phase I SAD/MAD study and then read out data from a Phase II obesity study third quarter of last year. A couple of new slides. We've talked about this stuff in the past, we haven't really presented slides on it before. But when we look at the -- something that made us really exciting about VK2735 is the PK profile in monkeys looked really differentiated versus other compounds in development. This is a plot of comparison head-to-head study against tirzepatide in single-dose study in primates. What you can see in these curves is the [indiscernible] a little bit later relative to tirzepatide. Cmax is clearly higher, half-life, quite a bit longer than [indiscernible] and over time, that results in a significant improvement in AUC. When we look at over time how that delta manifests the right-hand graph shows the effect after 8 weeks focusing in lease primates, again, head-to-head study. And you can see a significant difference in the overall exposures of VK2735. And you would hope that this would translate to some benefit in how the efficacy profile manifests. And so this is head-to-head in obese [indiscernible] the body weight changes in that study. We saw significant progressive weight reduction over 8 weeks, about a 40% improvement over the comparator. And so it does align with the profile that you would expect to see from the PK profile, and it certainly supports the delta and exposures that we see. I'll talk about the tablet first since there's the most recent data in the tablet formulation. This is some of the early work we did a 28-day Phase I study where we dosed from 2.5 mg per day up to 100 mgs per day. And in this study, we saw a nice dose-dependent reduction in body weight up to a little over 8% from baseline after 28 days. And I think a really nice progression in weight loss as well. And this shows the trajectory of weight loss in that study, something that really struck us when we were looking at these data is most pronounced in the bottom 3 lines, but really easier to see in the red line. This was looking at day 1 through 28. That's the steep part of the curve there. And then we had several follow-up visits out to day 57. So another 4 weeks after the last dose. And when you look at the efficacy, we saw 8.2% at 28 days and then 8.3% at 57 days. So it really speaks to this interesting durability in body weight reduction. And we think that is sort of in line with what you might expect in the long half-life that we see with the compound. When we look at the Phase I data from GI tolerability, really remarkably well tolerated in this study. You see a little bit of an uptick in nausea as you go across to the 100-milligram arm, but really a mild nausea vomiting as well, pretty much a nonissue. But overall, the tolerability profile is really excellent in this first study. So the study takeaways from the Phase I study up to 8.2% reduction in body weight after 28 days of dosing progressive effect, we think it has suggested, obviously, [indiscernible], you'll see better weight loss. Majority of the effect maintained 4 weeks after the last dose really excellent tolerability with the majority of the AEs mild to moderate, low rates of vomiting, diarrhea and constipation. And then we had an exploratory cohort as well. the transition people from 80 mg daily to 80 mgs every other day. I don't have that slide in this deck, but really showed minimal difference between those 2. It suggested once you get some inertia to the weight loss, maybe you could transition to a lower dose and is the first kind of hint that maintenance dosing would be really interesting with the oral. This was the Phase II study that we then conducted a multi-arm study, 13 weeks went from 15 milligrams to 120 milligrams. And then we -- the green line there at the bottom is an exploratory cohort where we dosed people up to 90 milligrams. And then for the final 7 weeks brought them back down to 30 milligrams, just another exploratory effort on understanding of maintenance effect. This slide shows the weight change at 13 weeks. So we saw beautiful dose-dependent reduction in body weight, up to a little over 12% at the 120-milligram dose really no plateau and highly significant in every cohort, except for the lowest dose. And we're going to focus more in the future on this 20 to 75-milligram dose range where we think you see a really nice efficacy effect and really great tolerability. This slide shows the trajectory in this -- all of the cohorts here. So a really nice progressive effect across the board here, up to 12% in that 20-milligram arm and statistically significant at all time points other than the 15 milligrams at all time points, starting with week 1. We also looked at maintenance durability here in this study, and we saw a really encouraging signal here. Looking at the 30, 60 and 90-milligram cohorts here, and that's kind of the sweet spot, we think, for further development. When we look at the body weight change of 13 weeks, the range was 7% to 11% and you look at 3 weeks after that last dose largely maintained effect, 6.7 to 10.3%. So the majority of that weight loss is is maintain that additional 3 weeks again, further data on a durability signal. This is a really interesting slide which shows that exploratory maintenance cohort that I talked about. The gold line is the cohort that was titrated up to the 90-milligram final dose and just held at 90 through the study. The green line is a cohort that was titrated up to 90% and then at week 6, transitioned back down to 30. And this was to explore. Once you get some inertia what happens if you drop the dose. And what was interesting here is that when we drop that dose, you see more than just a flat line, you see sort of a continued more gradual, but a continued reduction in body weight up to 9.2%. So it suggests maybe maintenance dosing could be achieved at doses below 30 milligrams. So really encouraging cohort there. When we look at discontinuation rates and treatment-emergent adverse events from the study, we did see, if you look on the -- as you go to the far right side of the table, dose-dependent increase in discontinuations and overall treatment emergent adverse events, drug-related treatment emergent adverse events also maybe an uptick at the higher doses. But really, when we look at the drug-related treatment emergent adverse events leading to discontinuation, really no difference from placebo vast majority mild to moderate. I think -- some of this is probably related to the titration rate that we used here. We did 2 week blocks in this study. I think in the future studies, we'd want to use 4-week blocks to ease into that exposure a little bit better. And most common treatment-emergent adverse pass leading to discontinuation with the expected GI-related adverse events. When we look at the the cohorts where we would really be looking at the sweet spot going forward, pretty minimal delta from placebo in that 20 to 75-milligram range. So that's what makes that range very exciting. Looking at the GI tolerability profile from this study. You again, pretty flat across the board until you get to the far right of the table, then you see a an uptick in nausea, a little bit of an uptick in vomiting. But when we look at the anticipated future dose range compared to placebo, there really is no difference. That's what makes us really excited thinking starting low and going slow would be the best approach here. This is the GI adverse event frequency over time. Through the course of the study, it's all cohorts combined, constipation in green, diarrhea [indiscernible], nausea and blue and vomiting in gold. And you can see the up-titration steps there. So accelerated titration here every 2 weeks. We thought we could get away with that because of the Phase I study was so well tolerated. But when you look at these adverse events over time, you can see obviously the first week is by far, the greatest incidence of adverse events and nausea, [indiscernible] is, by far, the most common. The next most common occurs in that first step up in titration at week 3. So it suggests that if you were to start lower, we started at 30 milligrams in the study, we started about 10, stepped over 4 weeks, you probably mitigate a lot of these GI-related adverse events. So the oral study takeaways up to 12% body weight after 13 weeks of dosing, progressive effect, dose-dependent across all of the treatment arms. We thought the maintenance cohort was particularly exciting because it did demonstrate that proof of concept. You can drop the dose and not necessarily see a rebound. Good tolerability. Most of the treatment-emergent adverse events were mild to moderate. The majority of the GI-related adverse events also mild to moderate and transient. As I said, I think we can optimize that quite a bit with a different titration scheme. And we're also -- I'll show a slide later conducting now a subcu to oral maintenance study than we hope to have the data later this year. I'll now move into the the subcu formulation. We've done a SAD/MAD Phase II study and that we're in Phase III in the SAD study. We saw data consistent with what we saw in primates later [indiscernible], pretty gradual onset 72 hours, half life up to a little over 10 days. We think that's amenable to weekly dosing in the MAD study, we saw a dose-dependent improvement of up to around 8% from baseline after 4 weeks durable weight loss 21 days after the last dose. We also looked at MRI PDF theft in the study. And so I really -- I don't have a slide here, but we did see a nice reduction in liver fat up to 50% in the 28-day study and then excellent exposures from weekly dosing, suggesting that a monthly regimen might be a possibility. And then finally, really good tolerability. Following the Phase I, we conducted the Phase II study we call the VENTURE study. This was a multi-arm Phase II study, 2.5 milligrams to 15 milligrams, 2.5 was a flat dose, 2.5 mgs a week for 13 weeks to 5, started 2.5 for 3 weeks and then it went to 5 for the remaining 10 weeks. 10 started the 2.5 and stepped up in 2.5 mg increments. The 15% was a different titration schedule. [indiscernible] 2 things different. It started at 5 and then went to 7.5 and 10 and then it jumped from 10 to 15. So I'll show whether that's important when we get to the tolerability slide. But really a lot of great information came out of this study. When we look at the primary endpoint here, body weight change after 13 weeks, we saw a significant reduction, really at all doses up to about 15%, 14.7% after 13 weeks, highly significant in every cohort. When we look at the trajectory of weight loss in this study as well, no plateau at all, and again, 9% to 14.7% weight loss. So we would anticipate a longer dosing window leading to a further improvement in body weight. When we look at the GI tolerability and majority of the expected GI-specific treatment-emergent adverse events were mild to moderate. You can see the the nausea ticking up a little bit as you go up to the higher doses, but still a reasonable rate of nausea, vomiting also slightly higher at higher doses. But overall, nothing surprising in the adverse event profile. It's the GI tolerability profile. This slide is another histogram like I showed with the oral and it's really interesting because when you look at the left-hand graph, this is the 10-milligram cohort. So these guys started at 10 and then at week. After 3 weeks, they went up to 5 mg and then 7.5 and then 10. And you can see, just like with the oral same color scheme constipation, diarrhea, nausea and vomiting, you see a higher rate of nausea in that first exposure. Then the second highest rate is in your first step up in titration. And after that, pretty much a nonissue at all. But when you look at the right-hand graph, very interesting. And the 2 things that are different about this cohort are clearly evident these guys started at 5 milligrams. So you can see that rate of nausea is quite a bit higher because you're starting at twice the dose as the 10-milligram started Similarly, when you get out to that week 10 time point, they went from 10 to 15 milligrams there. So a larger jump. And you can see that led to a commensurately higher rate of nausea even though you've been exposed to the drug for some time. So it's a great clinical example of that mantra start low and go slow. So the study takeaways from the Phase II trial up to 14.7% weight loss after 13 weeks. Most of the drug-related treatment emergent adverse events were mild to moderate. Most of them occur early and then resolve. I didn't show it in this deck, but when we look 4 weeks after the last dose, more than 90% of the weight loss efficacy was maintained for a month after the dose. We think the durability and PK profile suggests that a monthly regimen would be worth exploring, and that's what we are exploring. And the results from this day were just published in obesity last Friday. And what we're doing now with the subcu formulation is conducting the Phase III VANQUISH program. This is 2 studies. We initiated them last June. VANQUISH-1 is enrolling patients with obesity and Vanquish-2 is enrolling patients with obesity and type 2 diabetes. Both studies will include a a 1-year extension to look at long-term safety and efficacy. And we announced last year that VANQUISH-1 had completed enrollment, and we're on track to complete enrollment in Vanquish 2 in the first quarter. This is the study design for the Vanquish trial. So 4 arms, placebo, 7.5, 12.5 and 17.5. All of these will go with a 2.5 mg uptick in titration, but they will also start at 1.25 mg. So 2 weeks at 1.25 and then 4 weeks at 2.5, 4 weeks at 5 and so on up to 17.5. When you get to 17.5, that's when the 52-week stable dose window starts. Primary endpoint is change in body weight and secondary and exploratory endpoints will look at proportion with certain thresholds of body weight reduction maps as well as changes in function and other metrics. I also mentioned earlier, maintenance studies. So this is an outline very complicated slide, but an outline of the maintenance study. The top half of the slide above that blue bar is the subcu portion of this study. So we are randomizing people into a variety of arms, you dose up on a weekly basis all the way up to 22.5 mgs. And then after 19 weeks, people are then transitioned to a range of different monthly doses, 22.5 to 17.5 as you go down that slide. And then we have a 7.5 mg every other week cohort. We have a control arm that stays on 17.5 through the duration, 31 weeks. And then we've got a 17.5 mg arm that transitioned to placebo at week 19 to look at the delta from someone who comes off therapy completely to someone goes to monthly, somebody goes to every other week. In the same study, if you go to the bottom half of the slide, we have an oral portion. So in this part of the study, everybody's titrated up to 17.5 mg weekly. And then after 19 weeks, [indiscernible] is randomized to a 17.5 mg daily dose. Another cohort explores 27.5 mg daily. And then we have a weekly cohort where people are dosed with 110 mg weekly. So a lot of moving parts in this study, but it should give us a really, really interesting data set, and we expect that midyear. We announced it was completed enrollment last week and hope to have data around midyear or third quarter. A quick snapshot of the financials. We're really fortunate to have a strong balance sheet, over $700 million in cash as of the end of the third quarter. And we think this gives us a good runway through several clinical catalysts. And this brings us back to the first slide. So overall, focused on novel therapeutics for metabolic and endocrine diseases. Metabolic disease programs in [indiscernible] Phase III trials for obesity, the VANQUISH program, the oral program just completed Phase II study readout data last fall. And then the amylin program, I didn't talk about that that's moving into a Phase I program -- Phase I trial, first half of the year, the IND is planned for the first quarter. So that was the last slide I can [indiscernible] thanks very much for your attention.

[indiscernible] move on to the Q&A. So you mentioned there's [indiscernible] trials going on. The first one in just pure obesity has already finished enrollment. And you said you had commented previously that it had kind of the pace of enrollment was faster than you expected. How is the pace coming along for this [ VANQUISH-2 ] your executions?

Yes. The first one enrolled probably faster. We overenrolled it because we had so much demand. So it rolled to larger and more quickly. The second one is it's slower because that was so abnormally fast. It's really kind of going along what we expected to be the enrollment schedule. So that one is just according to plan.

And when do you expect readouts for.

Right. They're 18 months from last patient's first visit. So you can probably expect data in the 2027 time frame.

What do you think good data here looks like there's obviously a lot of competition and the bar seems to be changing quite a bit. So what do you think [indiscernible]

Yes, very fluid. Well, I would hope that the weight loss is competitive with other increases agonists. I think tolerability is becoming a more important metric for people, but it's hard to project. I mean, obviously, we'd certainly anticipate the data will be better than the Phase II data by a good margin, but hard to know what the actual 78-week efficacy signal.

And then you -- in the slides, you were talking about how the highest dose in the anchor trial is a little bit higher than [indiscernible] How did you kind of walk me through how the risk-benefit rationale there?

Yes, it was higher than what we had explored in the Phase study. We thought that the safety and tolerability profile looked really encouraging. So we thought that you could probably come up maybe a little bit in dose. It's always question whether or not the FDA will be okay with it moving up in dose and they didn't have a problem with it, provided that we had more randomized to those higher dose arms than the lower dose arms, and there was no problem. So we decided to proceed there. The 7.5 is a little bit smaller than the 12.5 and the 17.5.

I think audience question? [indiscernible]

So I'm curious about the 2809 for [indiscernible] that you had positive readout in 2024. What is the plan forward for that program?

Yes, that's open for licensing. We probably aren't going to pursue that at least near term by ourselves. So -- and I'd say a fair amount of interest in that program these days.

So we also want to move on to the FDA had come out with some developments towards in December. One of them was the FDA commissioner saying that they would require only kind of 1 Phase III trial. I wanted to see, does that impact any of your program specifically in terms of what you would have to kind of do and time lines?

No. It's interesting. We had gone kind of back and forth internally on the oral I suppose we went into an oral Phase III, would we do 1 study or 2 studies. And I think you could do either, but we had decided to do to do 2 if we were going to go forward. One in just like the Vanquish, 1 in a dedicated obesity population and then a smaller 1 in the type 2 population. You could put them in the same study, but it just gets a little bit more complicated on the the data interpretate data analysis. So it doesn't -- the suggestion from FDA didn't change any of our plans. We were planning to do to.

Okay. Okay. And then we've also seen a couple of these GLP-1 therapies recently received the FDA and PV designation, basically cutting down the review time line to 1 to 2 months. Do you think that that's like -- do you think going forward that's going to be applied to the class broadly, like whenever a new GLP-1 comes to FDA's desk? Or do you think it's more of a drug-by-drug basis? And then second part of the question is, is that something you guys have thought about for your drug.

To answer that, yes, is something we've thought about Unclear if it's going to be something that's really likely to be available to subsequent compounds, but certainly something that we would be I mean, everybody's best interest to ask about it.

What are some of the positives and negatives you like about that program?

Well, the quicker review time is the big positive I don't know that there would be an obvious negative. It's just -- is the agency going to allow multiple examples of a particular mechanism or something like that to proceed on that really accelerate.

And then you mentioned -- I think in the past, you said the FDA end of Phase II review for the oral was in December. I don't know if you can comment on how those talks have progressed and when you would hear from the FDA about potentially moving directly into Phase III [indiscernible]

Yes. We did have that meeting in December, and we have not yet received the minutes yet, so it's hard to comment on what the next steps are until you really get a minute, you wouldn't want to say something that you have to later [indiscernible]

But you're still fairly confident that you don't see any reason why it wouldn't be able to move forward.

Nothing obvious to us, but we got to get the mine.

I think you were -- you had kind of tailored down the next kind of doses and fusion programs for the oral therapy. And I was just wondering, in those specific dose ranges. Where do you see the role of that oral formulation in the market?

Yes. We've always thought the oral is best utilized in a maintenance setting. So if you start with the injectable, the net just work well, everybody is comfortable with them. Once you get to some target weight range then transitioning to a low dose oral, that's the way we've thought about -- I know everything is about this differently, but that's kind of the way we thought about it. And so 1 advantage with the molecule is since we have 2 formulations. If you lose weight with the injectable and then your thinking about transitioning, we have our potential monthly dose for the injectable or a potential low-dose oral to keep your weight maintained at that target range. And having the same molecule, we think probably mitigates the risk of new or unexpected side effects after that transition. And I'll get to the maintenance study in just a bit. But I was wondering, I think you had said in the past that you would start this next phase of the oral program at a lower dose. I don't know if you commented on.

Specific dose you are we have thinking about it.

No, we haven't commented on that. We started in that Phase II just because the Phase I was just pristine, really, really clean. So that is even starting in that top 100-milligram cohort in the Phase I started the 80 for 2 weeks and then went to 100 or 80 for a week and it went to 100 and there was no tolerability signal. Now that we've got more experience, and we've seen the aggressive titration rate led to a little bit higher instance of GI side effects. If we could start it I don't know, 10, 15 milligrams or something like that and then keep people there for 4 weeks and just kind of the standard 4-week cadence that is more common, confident that, that would really, really produce a nice adverse event profile.

Got it. And then in that Phase IIa trial for the oral, you talked about that little arm that you did where you went from 90 milligrams for 6 weeks, and I think you transitioned people into 70, right? -- for 7 weeks. Do you think the fact that they lost on average 1 percentage point, how consistent was that from -- in the overall patient group? I don't know if you have that idea. And then two, -- do you think that was due to really kind of a residual tail effect of the 90-milligram -- or do you think it [indiscernible]

Yes. I mean it's a good question. There could be some contribution there, but you would think that is the half-life around 8, 9 days, you'd think that after 7 weeks, you probably see something. And it was a pretty consistent a little bumpy, but a pretty consistent negative slope there. Yes, is it driven by a couple of people. I don't think so, but I can't remember [indiscernible] not really an outlier that's pulling that down. .

Okay. But it was generally consistent. Okay. And then [indiscernible] at the end of last year also put out its maintain trial for [indiscernible], showing basically people who switch from both semaglutide to ortho and then to appetite -- what were your main takeaways in terms of what are the read-throughs to your maintain trial?

Yes. So for the the injectable portion of our maintenance study, not a lot to read through, it's just different. We're keeping with the same subcu formulation. With the subcu to oral. I don't know. I mean we're looking at multiple doses. We're also looking at that weekly. And we're looking at the same compound. There's a big difference there if you switch from [indiscernible] focused peptide and a dual agonist focus peptide to a small molecule. So I don't know how translatable those data would be predictive for us. It's the same compound, and we're giving it at exposures that should produce some pharmacologic effect. So what was interesting, you did see a little more rebound in the -- through [indiscernible], not a lot, but a little bit more of a rebound there than in the semaglutide to [indiscernible], but I don't know if you can mix and match our study to that study.

Yes. Obviously, you guys are keeping with the same underlying molecule. Yes, right. So let's say you fast forward into the commercial stage, what's your -- just your -- your gut feeling that you think potentially oral 2735 could be a better maintenance therapy than awful good for people transitioning off of tirzepatide specifically because of the same GL you want to give [indiscernible]

Yes, you have to do the study to really answer that intelligently. But I just think it might resonate more with people if they know they're not switching molecules or staying the same molecule, it's just a different formulation. And when you switch to the oral, the exposures are lower. So that should reduce the the risk of any new side effect ring.

Okay. I know you didn't get a chance to talk about the [indiscernible], but I know you say correct me [indiscernible] time line is you will file an IND in the first quarter Yes. go into trial first half. Could you talk about just how you think that this molecule is differentiated. Obviously, there's a lot of minds now going out -- do you think it's differentiated from a chemistry perspective or an overall profile perspective?

Yes. It seems to be potent. That's the thing that stands out to us is the -- best monkeys has a pretty powerful effect on body weight reduction, more than the compound. So we think that, that is an interesting stand-alone. We think maybe it would be an interesting compound to layer on top of 2735, but these are sort of future studies. The first 1 will be a SAD study. Just like the early 2735 do a single ascending dose study and then follow with a 28-day multiple same dose study. And then what we have in the back combination studies kind of progressing along.

And what do you kind of see -- still up for debate what the role of amylin is? And just what do you kind of -- what do you -- if you [indiscernible]SP-8 5, 10 years.

Yes. It's kind of a roller coaster of sentiment on the mechanism. We originally thought that amylin would probably best as a combo agent on top of GLP-1 or a dual agonist. But you see pretty good efficacy with the amylin. So maybe for someone who's BMI is 32 to 35, not 45 maybe amylin would be interesting for that population. Another group might be somebody who can't tolerate a GLP-1, amylin might be a suitable candidate. But I think the single agent and the combos are pretty interesting with that mechanism.

Okay. And then last question is just you talked about the combined ability. Do you think you could do some sort of a net combination or [indiscernible]

Yes. Very complicated, but encouraging, I think, what we've seen so far, but too early to say. -- if you're looking at oral single-dose combo versus 2 tablets, 2 tablets, 1 single compound we need to have it might be just a logistically easier, but we've spent a fair amount of time on both of those.

And then last question is just can you just talk about the breadth of kind of strategic interest you're seeing here in this space as pharma companies try to [indiscernible]

Yes, it's been pretty steady over the last couple of years. I think the interest is probably probably broader than is visible. I think that there are more parties sort of circling, I guess, the space and very intrigued, but trying to understand what is the -- how do we commit to obey. Do we pursue a brand-new mechanism? Do we pursue something that's proven? Do we go really early at a low price point. We a little more expensive at a later price point. I don't know, all those things feels like are kind of under consideration. But I'd say what we're happy about is as we continue to develop our program. It should get more valuable, and we think there is a fair amount of interest out there across the industry.

Got it. Brian, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time. I hope we see you again next year.

Thanks a lot.