Wallenius Wilhelmsen ASA (WAWI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

So I will start with the few highlights of the quarter and of the year. And starting with the quarter, we delivered an EBITDA of $452 million which in historic context is a very strong year for us. That led us to a year of $1.9 billion in adjusted EBITDA, which is a record for Wallenius Wilhelmsen. And net profit of just north of $1 billion. We are now for the second half of 2024, delivering a dividend of $1.24 and this accounts to about 95% of the net profit for the second half of 2024. It constitutes a regular dividend within our policy, 50% of net profit, $0.65. And then also an extraordinary profit or a dividend of $0.59 per share. We also renewed our book of business last year, and we announced every contract above $100 million. And last year, we announced new contracts worth $8.9 billion. And I'll come back to a little bit more of the details of that book. The biggest single contract we announced we did just before the new year, a renewal of the Hyundai/Kia contract worth USD 1.2 billion, extending for 5 years and increasing the volume we carry for Hyundai and Kia up to 50%, a very significant milestone for us, and this is partly why we are so confident that we will have another very strong year in '25. We also ordered 2 more vessels in our Shaper Class, and we upsized the last 7 vessels. So they are now 12,100 CEU, which will be by far the biggest vessel delivered in our segment when they are starting to deliver from '26 -- well, the biggest one '27 and onwards. We announced Bjørnar Bukholm will take over as CFO from May 1, but we have an extraordinary good interim in Jermund, and you will meet him later. So then last but not least, we expect 2025 to be another very strong year for Wallenius Wilhelmsen, and we believe it will be at least in line with 2024 when it comes to EBITDA. Jumping one level down and looking at the segments. We are very happy to see that we are having strong performance in all our business segments and improving performance in all business segments. So we had a total revenue of $3.9 billion in the Shipping segment and an EBITDA of $1.6 billion last year, consistently growing over the last few years. Even stronger growth in results comes from the Logistics area, where we passed $1.2 billion, which is a big milestone for us last year in revenues and also approached $200 million, $197 million to be exact in EBITDA, also a consistent improvement. And then in the Government sector, we see consistent improvement and very strong improvement also in the EBITDA. Revenues last year ended up at $427 million, and an EBITDA of $183 million. So we are standing on 3 very strong legs, and we are certainly looking at developing this, and I'll come back a little bit to what are the particular focus within businesses in 2025. Before that, let me pause a little bit around the dividend, which is a record dividend paid by Wallenius Wilhelmsen. If you look at the total 2024, we are paying out around 73% of our net profit in dividends. And I mentioned for second half in isolation, we paid out 95% of our net profit in dividends, meaning that we are yielding back most of the net profit to shareholders for 2024. At the right-hand side, you can see that it accounts -- adds all the way up to $1.80 -- I can't really read there is $1.85, $1.86 I can't remember, 85, $1.85 for the year, of which $0.61 was paid in second half last year. So 2024 also represented a very strong dividend in total. I mentioned the book of business. Here, you can see how it adds up. We are announcing our contracts above $100 million. And just to be clear, we have many contracts signed in 2024 that were below $100 million, not reported. So the real book of business is stronger than this, but these are the biggest deals we did. And as you will see, the majority of them are for 5 years, meaning that they will start in '25 and go for 5 years or in late '24 and go for 5 years. Then you have a good chunk with 3-year contracts and just a very few that are 2-year contracts. So this gives us a very strong book of business for the next years to come and puts us in a really good position to utilize our fleet also if we see somewhat increased or tougher competition with more vessels delivered. If we look at the general market, and as you know, now we have 70%, maybe even nowadays, closer to 80% of what we transport and also process are cars. So that's the most important market we're in. The sale of cars are increasing around the world. This is the green line on the left-hand side, and it's picking up, and we are now back more or less to the levels we had prior to COVID. The yellow line -- and this is expected to grow also into '25. The yellow line is the world production. And that has been slowing down in '24, and we might see a more flattish picture into '25 on world production of cars because we have had a big inventory. You can see that from the blue line that there's been a big buildup of inventory around the world, which is now tried reduced. This is not the most important figure for us. Of course, world production matters, but what really matters is for the shipping segment, what is moved on deep sea. And although if we have a flat year-over-year production in the world, we expect that the deep sea trade will continue to grow. And this is, of course, mostly driven by China, which continued to grow their exports. The growth into Europe in fourth quarter was actually somewhat down. But to the rest of the world, it continues to grow. And we also see that there are growth coming out of Korea, and now even out of Japan, we see a growing -- expected growing export in particular, due to the fact that we now see that hybrids are back in demand. So in general, we still continue to see that the sale of cars transported deep sea instead of interregional are growing faster than those produced locally. But there is, of course, a big but out in the market these days, and you have all read the news, and that's around possible tariffs. The first line of tariffs came in Europe around Chinese cars and EVs and now of course, the big story is what happens with U.S. tariffs. The only thing we know is that I have added tariffs to Chinese imports, that doesn't affect our market. Largely speaking, there is no volume moving from China into the U.S. on cars and hardly anything on other type of equipment either. So for us, that has close to 0 impact. When it comes to Mexico and Canada, it's somewhat different. And on the left-hand side, we have shown the imports of cars into the U.S. And as you can see, about half of the cars sold in the U.S. are produced in the U.S. Mexico is by far the biggest producer for the U.S. market, then followed by Europe and then Japan and Korea and others. The U.S. is not self-sustained with car production. And the other side of the coin is that you look on the right-hand side, even the U.S. production of cars are very intertwined with the rest of the world. 61% of the parts going into car produced in the U.S. are sourced from outside the U.S. And if I read right, I think the number out of Mexico is around 45% on many of these models, meaning that putting in a tariff between the U.S. and Mexico and the tariff between U.S. and Canada is not a simple thing. And it was also put on hold for a month. So this is a very complex picture. But for sure, our customers tell us, and we are strong in Mexico and the U.S., and I'll come back to that, tell us that any tariff will hurt their supply chains and more than anything else, immediately reduce production because it will be harder to move goods across the borders. So tariffs is the big unknown, and it's also a big unknown for us, but it's not a simple thing to get implemented, and we see that now. So my last slide on general on the company before I move into the segments. I said I would say a little bit more what are our priority is for 2025. And the main priority for us is, of course, to secure continued profitable growth of the company. And if you look at the shipping segment, the main focus we have is to sustain the high utilization. And through that, the high performance we have in the shipping segment. Number one is to make sure we deliver on the contracts we have. We have a very strong book of business and also make sure that our customers are nominating the volumes to us that they are supposed to do. Then we now finally have a little bit of space to go out and sell again. And we have a lot of customers -- spot customers, but also customers in the breakbulk segment, which are big odd stuff that we move around the world. And we are now really focusing on getting back out and securing that volume, which is really well paid. And then last but not least, to secure sustained profitability, we are continuing our work to reduce our costs and in particular, the cost of energy and the energy efficiency. In logistics, we are looking at expanding our footprint and accelerate growth, of course, while still keeping profitability. We have big contracts coming up for renewal. That's very key for us to win those, but also expand into new markets. And we announced in December that we are now taking over as the operator of the RoRo port in Gothenburg. And we are working on a range of similar opportunities around the world where we are seen as a very attractive operator and manager of logistics assets. We opened officially in January this year, the new terminal in Brunswick, which will be the biggest or is the biggest import hub and export hub for RoRo in the U.S. Then we are working very hard to help our customers to become more digital, become more digital ourselves, and we see an increased need for digital services. And we have set up a dedicated team to work with that, and we are now in '25 in a position where we hope to be able to start really delivering and scale that service line. And then, of course, to maintain our profitability, we need to consistently and continuously work on operational efficiency, and we see that we have room to improve standardization and efficiency on our global operation in logistics. In government, we are the leading player in the U.S. flag market. We will enhance that position, and we will add capacity into the Atlantic trade, so we can do more cargo for U.S. government. There is more need than we've been able to cover in '24. We're also working in the government sector to deliver more logistics contract. We already do, but increasing our scope way beyond shipping. And then also for that operation to work consistently with cost and energy efficiency. And then across our business, we always put safety, compliance and security first. We will continue to do that. We are increasingly working with an integrated scope to our customers, meaning that companies increasingly outsource more of the logistics to us. We will continue that development. And also, we will stay flexible because we must admit that the world is much more uncertain today than just a month or 2 back. Then into the segments, shipping. I'll be brief on that. We had another strong quarter, but we saw a reduction in volumes in the quarter, mainly driven by a strike in Korea on the production of Hyundais and Kias, meaning that we have somewhat lower volume there. And that also led to a stronger ballasting of our fleet. So we had a lower volume in the quarter. But despite that, we had a very strong development in the rates. It looks a little bit more extreme than what it is. So they should note at the bottom of this slide, showing that we had a one-off effect from accounting changes. So the underlying TCE is $56,000 a day, more or less flat quarter-on-quarter, while the net rate -- underlying net rate is $64,000. But we are consistently improving our net rate, and we have some more details on that. So if you look over the last few years, back since 2021, we have year-over-year increased our net rates significantly. The most important contribution comes from contract renewals. We are renewing contracts at higher levels. And more, give or take $15 per CBM has increased -- has come from contract renewals. And then we have 2 other effects, meaning customer mix, which customers are we actually performing for within that year has gone up and down, but that was positive in '24 and also the trade mix, meaning that we're able to position our fleet on the most attractive trades. That also was improved in 2024. So altogether, we have seen a consistent and strong improvement in our net rates, and of course, this is also reflected now in our book of business going forward. In high & heavy, which is one of our really secret sauces, we are the leading player in bigger, higher equipment, excavators, buses, trucks over the world. But that market has been quite soft for a while now. And the loadings we had these are order numbers for loading to Q4 were historically low. We see this as positive because we still fill up our vessels, and there is a significant upside when the cycle comes back on high & heavy. And we know that the world has not stopped using excavator or harvesting machines. It's just the fact that there's a slow market now, and they will come back. So when this comes back, probably towards the end of '25 and into 26, we are in a very strong position to take more high & heavy volumes. Today, we have more or less 22%, 23% of our cargo being in high & heavy, historically, this should be in the range between 30% and 35%, and we do believe that will come back in the future. The big challenge, of course, in shipping and the one that we talk a lot about are the increasing fleet. And yes, there is a sharply increasing fleet into '25 and into '26, more or less 10% a year over the next 2 years, which, of course, is a significant impulse of new capacity. And I'm sure this will have an impact on the market. But then we need to remind ourselves that we have an extremely strong book of business, illustrated here by the adjusted contracts that we have announced and how they will add to us an income over the next few years. And we have more or less fully secured the volumes we need for 2025 in our book of business and a similar number for 2026. So in general, we have a very strong book of business that should carry us over the next couple of years despite there are more vessels delivered to the market. Quickly on logistics, not too much changing quarter-over-quarter. We still see strong volumes in the U.S. on the auto side, but they are softening a little bit because they are taking down inventory and producing less cars. But still, for us, it's more or less flat quarter-on-quarter. High & heavy segment, the same, but in the high & heavy segment, for sure, product is moving slower, and we have more storage. We are more interested in adding value to a product and just keeping it. But right now, less product is moving on high & heavy, and we can see that on our sites. Terminals had a seasonally bit slower quarter because we do less of this biosecurity work very much related to Australia. Big picture on logistics is that another strong quarter, more or less in line with the previous quarter. And I promise to come back to our situation and position towards Mexico, Canada and the U.S. We are, if not the leading, certainly one of the leading logistics operators in our industry in the U.S. We are sitting at the end of the factory line and doing service for most of the plants in Mexico and in several plants in the U.S. However, if you look at the exposure we have to tariffs, even if we are to discontinue all our operations in Mexico, this will have an EBITDA effect of less than USD 10 million in us. So all in all, we are quite exposed to Mexico versus the U.S., but it's not a substantial contribution to an EBITDA, but it's certainly a substantial part of our activity. We are not involved in car production in Canada. We're purely working on imports and exports, so that we will not be affected by any tariffs between the U.S. and Canada when it comes to car production. So last comment on sustainability. We have a very ambition plan for net zero in 2040, also a very ambition plan for how we should get there by 2030. And we are very proud that this has now been verified and approved by the science-based target initiative. For those who don't know, this is an organization that validates that the company's plan is according to the latest science and the Paris agreement. And we are one of very few companies that now can prove that we have a plan and a target and an ambition that is actually within the Paris agreement, and we are very proud that that's now validated. And we are doing well. On the right-hand side, you can see how our emissions are performing. We are ahead of our targets. So even the targets towards 2030 of reducing by 40%, we are tracking ahead of that in terms of reducing our emissions. We are also improving year-over-year when it comes to safety and safety statistics. So in general, we believe we are moving in the right direction on sustainability, but let it be clear, the work on both safety and fighting emissions never stops. So with that, let's turn to the hard facts on the numbers and Jermund.

Thank you very much, Lasse, and good morning, everybody. It's a very good day to be here and to present the financials for the quarter and for the year. And let's jump right into the year. 2024 was another exceptional year by just about all measures for Wallenius Wilhelmsen, both as a group but that also applies to the individual business segments, individually. In terms of both revenue, profitability and cash generation, we were at or very close to all-time high levels. Group EBITDA grew by 5% year-over-year from a very strong 2023 and return on capital employed ended at 19.9%. So that's an all-time high. The logistics and government segments improved EBITDA with 13% and 41%, respectively; and shipping also saw growth 2% in EBITDA despite the Red Sea situation and the bridge collapse in Baltimore, for instance. Overall, we are in a very strong position, both strategically and financially, and we are paying record dividends for the financial year to our shareholders, up some 62% year-over-year. Zooming in on Q4. As we guided in our December outlook statement, Q2 saw a slight come down from a very strong Q3 mostly on shipping volumes while still delivering at historically high levels. Revenue is relatively flat, 1% down quarter-over-quarter to $1,341 million. While EBITDA was down some 10% on the lower shipping volumes, ending at $452 million. Operating cash flow was at $413 million, and the cash balance was reduced from approximately $1.8 billion to $1.4 billion over the quarter. That's primarily due to the $451 million dividends we paid in October, but we also did some voluntary debt repayments in the quarter. And due to that cash reduction, net debt ticked up to $1,758 million at the end of the year. Looking at our financial targets. On the right-hand side, you see that we're performing well against all our target levels. In addition to our return on capital employed of almost 20%, both equity ratio and leverage ratio are looking very solid. Let's look at the individual segments and starting with shipping, the lower volumes, like Lasse said, about 1 million cubic meters down, about half of that is attributable to Korea and strikes in the Hyundai system, which took down volumes there. But we also saw other OEMs reduce volumes somewhat for a variety of reasons. To some extent, that is seasonal and related to OEMs taking down inventories and making space for new 2025 models. On the positive side, all-time high net freight rates boosted results, but the sum of the lower volumes, lower BAF revenues and some one-offs that I'll come back to you on the next slide drove EBITDA down to $371 million for the quarter, down from $416 million in Q3. High & heavy volumes were low and the cargo mix was stable quarter-over-quarter. Logistics revenue was flat, and we saw an increase in like the low-margin businesses, storage and inland transportation, while some seasonal tapering off in other areas. We had a negative effect on our Canadian business due to a new 100% tariff on Chinese imports to Canada, and some lower biosecurity revenues in Australia as we saw OEMs do more precautionary measures before shipping cargo to Australia. And we had some year-end bonus accruals, which also impacted EBITDA. So EBITDA at $44 million in Q4, flat year-over-year and $3 million down quarter-over-quarter. And our Government Services segment saw a real spike in demand for U.S. flag cargo in the quarter, and Q4 is typically a slower quarter for this segment. So that boosted EBITDA to an all-time high of $52 million with an EBITDA margin of 48% for the quarter. Breaking down the quarter-over-quarter development further. Here, you see that the shipping volume drop gave approximately $63 million lower revenues, while the higher rates boosted revenues by $42 million. And then the fuel surcharges were down $24 million quarter-over-quarter due to lower fuel prices. And then we have this one-off true-up effect that Lasse talked about. So in 2024, we decommissioned an old legacy voyage management system in WW Ocean. And we transitioned into one common voyage management system for the whole shipping segment. As a consequence of this and to align our methodology for voyage estimates and accruals, we have made a one-off true-up of revenues and voyage costs, and that's to a large part related to prior periods and not Q4. Worth pointing out, this is a noncash accounting adjustment and the net EBITDA effect in Q4 is minus $13 million. Other Q-over-Q changes were quite minor. Lower fuel costs due to lower prices, and we saw somewhat higher SG&A due to the previously mentioned bonus accruals. Over to cash. Q4 operating cash, $413 million. The cash conversion rate was $91 million for the quarter -- 91% for the quarter and the corresponding number for the year was 94%. We're obviously very happy with that number. Net CapEx of $72 million includes about $48 million in yard payments on our new builds. The remainder is vessel dry dock and related to some other assets. And here, you see net proceeds and repayments are down by $283 million, that is some scheduled repayments, but also a voluntary $140 million reduction of drawn debt in a revolving credit facility in WW Ocean. In addition, we exercised purchase options on 2 long-term leases in EUKOR. Under other financing items, we had a $16 million increase in cash collateral relating to U.S. dollar NOK cross-currency swaps for our bonds. That's due to a weaker Norwegian krona. And total cash collateral at year-end stands at $27 million. And of course, in October, as I mentioned, the group paid $451 million in dividends, and that is the main reason for the drop in cash quarter-over-quarter. Which brings us to the dividends for the second half of the year. Lasse touched on this, we will pay a substantial $1.24 per share. That has 2 components. We're paying ordinary dividends of 50% of net profits, which gives $0.65 per share. And in addition, we are, for the first time, utilizing another instrument at the Board's discretion, paying extraordinary dividends of $0.59 per share on top of this. That amounts to about $524 million in total to be paid in April. And for the full year, the dividend linked to 2024 earnings will be $1.85 per share. That corresponds to about 161% of free cash flow to equity for the year. Going forward, we intend to pay high dividends at the top end of our policy range of 30% to 50% of net profit. And additionally, we intend to make extraordinary payments when our financial position allows for it. Now it's worth reminding that it is the cash at hand on ASA level, WW ASA level that determines dividends. We do have a somewhat complex corporate structure. And cash at subsidiaries are not always directly available. As an example, EUKOR, which we own 80% is restricted by Korean law to only 2 dividend payments per year, but we have a continued focus on freeing up cash on ASA level. Here is to give you a quick update on the remaining CapEx commitments linked to our newbuild program. In Q4, we declared 2 additional options, taking our total Shaper Class newbuild program to 14 vessels on order with estimated delivery between Q3 2026 and Q4 2028. 7 of these vessels will have a capacity of 9,300 CEUs and the remaining 7 will have a capacity of 12,100 CEUs, up from the previously announced 11,700, and this leads to a slight increase in total CapEx commitments. The remainder of which now stands at approximately $1.5 billion, and you see the payment schedule on the chart here per quarter. As previously advised, we have secured a very solid predelivery financing for 6 of the newbuilds, all through EUKOR and we expect to finance the remaining 8 closer to delivery, and those 7 will sail in the WW Ocean fleet and 1 will be a EUKOR vessel. The balance sheet remains robust. We maintain a strong liquidity position. The equity ratio, 39.5%, up quarter-over-quarter due to the solid profit for the period. As I mentioned, net debt increased by $261 million. That's because of the reduced cash, but it decreased year-over-year as we continue to pay down debt. And the number of unencumbered vessels now stand at 25, and that number is up by 3 during Q4. And last but not least, we are very happy to announce our new sustainable financing framework. Back in 2022, we introduced our first sustainable financing framework, then aiming to reduce carbon intensity by 27.5% from 2019 to 2030. And since we have issued some $1.5 billion in sustainability-linked debt. The new framework is even more ambitious. It aligns with our commitment to achieving net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2040. And of course, in order to get there, we need to invest in fleet renewal, trucks, other equipments, all while transitioning to low-carbon fuels. And as Lasse mentioned, these targets are now validated by the science-based target initiative. And this framework now sets out the terms under which the Wallenius Wilhelmsen Group may rate financing, and we can do it through either green proceeds debt, which is aligned with the EU taxonomy, and we will consider using this to finance new dual-fuel capable vessels in the future. And then alternatively, we can issue sustainability-linked debt that is directly linked to our net zero 2040 goals. This is planned for more general corporate financing purposes and for any refinancing of vessels. S&P Global Ratings has issued an independent opinion affirming this framework. And you can find all the documentation on our website if you go to Investor Relations and look under sustainable finance. And with that, I'll hand it back to you, Lasse, for the prospects.

Good. Thank you, Jermund, and I'll be quick. I think I have mentioned most of this, but we expect 2025 to be another very strong year for Wallenius Wilhelmsen, at least in line with '24, and this is despite the increased uncertainty that we see around the world these days. And certainly, that has increased over the last few months. The reason why we believe it's going to be another strong year is that we have a very strong book of business. We have a leading position in our industry. And I must say we have a unique, fantastic team that goes out and fight for our customers every day. This prospect, of course, is based on the fact that we are expecting to still close the deal on selling MIRRAT in Q1 this year. If that changes, of course, the numbers will change. We are assuming that we continue to not trade in the Red Sea, this could also change. And certainly, we have not taken in material consequences of any future tariffs that we don't know of yet. But in general, 2025 will be another strong year, but with somewhat higher uncertainty than what we saw in Q4 last year. So with that, I think we are ready for some questions, Anders. And by the way, if you wonder, this is from our New Brunswick terminal with 3 beautiful vessels lying there and there is a fourth key coming up soon just ahead of the forward vessels. So it will be an amazing and is an amazing operation.

[Operator Instructions] First one for you, Lasse. You choose to use the dividend policy to the full extent this time, why haven't you done it earlier?

Well, we have seen over the last few years that we have built a stronger balance sheet. We have taken significant investments in renewing our fleet, and we're now in a position where we can use our dividend or policy to the full extent. And we have said many times that we have no plan of hurting cash or becoming a bank. And we are now in a financial situation where we can start paying real substantial dividends all the way up to 95% of our net profits in the second half. So this is purely because of the improved and the strong financial position of Wallenius Wilhelmsen.

Next one for you, Jermund. 2 months ago, we issued the guidance. We're now widening the range. Why do we do it now?

Well, first of all, important to emphasize 2025 is going to be another great year for us. So we think even stronger than 2024. But of course, I think everybody can see that the world has become somewhat more uncertain over the last 2 months. So that's why we've slightly widened the guidance range. But look, our business will be supported in 2025 and going forward by our substantial book of business. I mean Lasse mentioned, just last year, we announced new contracts totaling roughly $9 billion. That will boost our contract rates for the coming year. And additionally, our strong partnerships, our people and our unique assets will all position us well to secure profitable cargo in the year to come.

Okay. Then there are several questions linked to the supply/demand balance, the growth in fleet and also to what extent do we expect that our customers are going to deliver on their cargo commitments?

Should I answer all that? So where do I start. Well, first of all, we have, of course, contracts with our customers, and they are obliged to deliver under those contracts. But what -- if our customers are having lower volumes than anticipated in the contract, typically, we find good solutions with them, and we move those commitments to other times or they are reduced. In general, we see that there is a strong demand still for our services. Adjusted somewhat down for 2025 as compared to what we saw by the end of last year. But as we said, we have not had the chance to sell spot and breakbulk business lately, and we're very happy that we now have a small ability to do so. So we are quite confident that we will have strong and high utilization also in '25 and probably also beyond that.

Then on to logistics. You touched a bit on it, but what impact can tariffs make on our logistics operation?

Yes. The majority of our logistics operation is in the U.S. and in Mexico. And in Mexico, we are working within the factories. So when the car comes off the production line, it's Wallenius Wilhelmsen people taking off the cars, doing the final processing, meaning installing stuff, loading it onto a railcar or onto a truck. We even have a shuttle service for a vessel, taking cars from the Mexican market to the U.S. Despite all of this, it has a big -- could have a big impact on us in terms of activity level, but not a major impact on EBITDA. We also have a very strong presence in the U.S. in terms of factories, and they are depending, as I said, a lot on Mexican parts. So it will also impact the U.S. side of things. But altogether, we have said that unless this lasts for a very long time and really disrupts the supply chain, we do not think it will have a material impact on our overall EBITDA but it will, of course, affect our activity level in Mexico and U.S.

Okay. Then there are a few questions around our fleet. First to you, Jermund, what kind of loan to value could you expect to take on to our new builds?

Sorry, come again.

The loan to value, 60 to 70, depending on the profile of the terms and also our eagerness to gear up the fleet, but we have significant room to increase gearing our fleet, and we are approaching a very low leverage in the company.

And then on to fleet planning. First of all, are we planning to sell some of our ships during the coming years. And there's also a question around our 2 remaining options. So are we going to push those into 2027 or even further?

Well, in terms of selling vessels, there are no plans of selling vessels now. But of course, if we have sea vessels that are no longer fit in our operations, we would consider selling vessels, but there will not be a major sell-off in '25, I would assume. When it comes to the newbuilding options, we have said that we are done with ordering vessels for delivery up to 2028. And beyond that, we have not made any comments. But for now, we are done with our newbuilding program and fleet renewal up until 2028.

Then some additional questions around what kind of commitment do we have for our customers in terms of volumes? That's kind of a big question among the investors. How would you say that? Do we have a big commitment?

I would -- I mean, I think I would phrase it a bit general and saying that there is industrial optionality but not market optionality, meaning that we have a contract with the customer. If they're moving the cargo, they have to move it to us. On some lines, even we have full exclusivity. We're the only one moving cargo for our customers. But there is industrial optionality in the sense that if somebody -- if a company realizes that due to tariffs, we're not moving product from China to Europe, but we're moving it to somewhere else and maybe the volumes are down and we're going to postpone it into next year, we are flexible with that. That's part of being a long-term partner with this industry. Remember that we have done business with the same companies for decades, meaning that as long as the product moves, we will carry it under our contracts. If it doesn't move, we try to find good solutions with our customers.

Then on dividends. What does it take to -- or what financial position does support extraordinary dividends?

We have said that we are in a comfortable financial situation, meaning that we do not need to increase our cash position. So as long as we are able, as Jermund said, to free cash up to ASA level, and we're comfortable with the cash position in ASA level. We are in a position to pay dividends on our policy and also extraordinary dividends. But we are comfortable with the financial position we have today and do not see a need for a principle increase our cash position.

Okay. Then I guess we can open up for some questions from the audience if there are any. Do we have any questions?

I think they're exhausted.

They're exhausted. Let's see if there are some more questions here. I think we've covered it, more or less addressed most of it, let's just make a double check here. I think a lot of people are asking the same questions as we said, around contracts. Yes, what does it take to renegotiate, are people going to -- or our customers going to renegotiate, how firm are they, and that's kind of the whole gist of a lot of the questions.

And we cannot speculate if companies will renegotiate. That happens. People -- companies come back and ask for favors. In general, we have good terms in our contracts. We have a long standing agreement with our customers. And we don't give away things unless we get something back normally. So in general, we consider our book of business to be very solid.

All right. Unless there are more questions. I think we're...

Close it up.

Reaching the end. So thank you for taking part today. If you have media questions, you can talk to Idha. Otherwise, give us a call. And on that, have a very good day. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.