WAM Capital Limited (WAM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, and welcome to the 23rd WAM Capital Annual General Meeting. As you'd be aware over those 23 years, we've been focused on shareholders, and that is again what we're focused on today. And due to the coronavirus pandemic, we are having a virtual AGM. We're actually very sad that this has to be a virtual AGM because we'd love to see you all in person. And as soon as we can, we will be back on the road having cups of tea with you all. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which I'm speaking to you today, it's the Gubbi Gubbi people, and pay my respects to elders past and present. As we're unable to meet together, I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands from which you all, our shareholders and fellow directors, are currently viewing and listening to today's AGM. [Foreign Language] That's welcome to all our shareholders. Thank you for joining us and for your continued support of WAM Capital. I am Geoff Wilson, Chairman of the Board of Directors. I'm joined today by my fellow Board members: Kate Thorley, Lindsay Mann, James Chirnside; Philippa Ryan, Matthew Pancino; and acting as a moderator, our joint company secretary, who will be taking -- dealing with questions today, Jesse Hamilton. Scott Whiddett, who's a representative of our auditor, pitcher Partners, is also with us today to ask any questions on the financial -- to answer any questions on the financial statements. As it's just after 2:15 and a quorum is present, I declare the meeting open. The Notice of Meeting has been circulated to you all. And in the absence of any objections, I'd like to proceed on the basis that the notice be taken as read. Jesse, do we have any objections?

No objections.

Thank you. We'll do our best to use technology to replicate some of the features of a physical meeting. But as you'd be aware that we don't believe the virtual meeting serves shareholders. We've been very vocal, and I'll talk about that a little later when we're talking about shareholder and retail investor advocacy. Obviously, I encourage you to read the Chairman's address. And if there's any questions that we don't answer during this period, please call us or e-mail us because it is your company. And any ideas suggestions or questions, we're only here because you allow us to be here. Shareholders who have logged into the webinar with your username and password will have the opportunity to submit questions online. But also, you'll be able to ask audio questions as well as vote on all the resolutions. Questions can be submitted at any time. Now please note that you can submit questions from now. And also, you can vote from now. In terms of answering the questions, we will focus them on each of the resolutions. We'll group them on the resolutions. And any general questions, we'll answer at the end. [Operator Instructions] If you have any issues using this system, please return to the Lumi platform. Voting today will be conducted by a poll on all items. In order to provide you with ample time to vote, I'll open the voting very shortly. If you already submitted a proxy or voted online prior to this meeting, you're not required to vote again. When I open the poll, the voting icon will appear on the navigation bar. Once you click on this, a list of resolutions will appear on your screen with voting options. Simply select which option to cast your vote. If you change your mind, simply select another option. You can change your vote as many times you want. Your vote will be submitted when the voting icon changes color. And there is -- just to be aware, there's no submit button. I now declare the voting open on all items. And before I close the voting, I will give you a minute or so notice later in the meeting. The votes cast online during the meeting will be combined with the various other proxy votes that have been made before the meeting. Please note that only shareholders, proxyholders or shareholder representatives may vote. For those who have logged on to the webcast as a guest, you'll be able to view our webcast but not submit any votes or ask questions. Looking at the financial year 2021 in review. WAM Capital had an extremely good year, a record profit of $343.3 million pretax, and that's really a combination of the size of the assets and the performance of those assets over the period. That pretax number ended up with a -- with an operating -- sorry, with an operating after-tax number of $266.6 million, and they were both very big turnarounds from the previous 12 months. The WAM Capital portfolio over the 12-month period plus the investment portfolio was up 37.5%. That's an outperformance of about 7.3% with the -- on the All Ords and 4.3% on the Small Ords. Over the 12-month period, the cash holding was a fraction under 10%. The performance of the pretax NTA, that's the second measure we look at for performance of LICs, that increased 29.5% in the 12 months. And that included a $0.155 fully franked dividend. And we -- there's no -- we haven't franked -- sorry, grossed up the franked. And that pretax NTA is after tax paid over the period and also various other costs. During the year, there was quite a bit of corporate activity, and that was really a function of the opportunities presenting themselves. WAM Capital made a bid for Concentrated Leaders, Contango Income Generator fund, amaysim. As a result of all those takeovers, there was a little over 145 million new shares issued. All those shares were issued at a pretax premium -- sorry, at a premium to pretax NTA. And the benefit of all those activities added about $23.2 million in value to all shareholders or about 1.7% of assets. Total shareholder return, and that's the share price performance over the 12-month period, was a solid 28.9%. The -- WAM trading at a premium to NTA at June 30 was 15.7%. And yesterday, it was trading at 18.2%. Throughout its 23 years history, the company has traded WAM Capital at both sizable premiums and discounts. In terms of fully franked dividends going forward, a lot of shareholders continue to ask the sustainability of dividend. I was surprised when a shareholder asked the other day why didn't we increase our dividend. Now when you look at what the bulk of listed companies have done over the last 2 years, significantly slashed dividends 2 years ago and reduced dividends against last year, now I'd just like to thank the Board for making their decisions and the Investment Manager for their strong performance to allow us to continue to keep the dividend of what it was 3 years ago, of that $0.155 a share, which really has given you -- is a very high fully franked dividend. Now at the moment -- well, since listing, there's nearly $2.70 has been paid out nearly in fully franked dividends. And in terms of the ability to continue to pay fully franked dividends, it really is a function of having franking, paying tax, receiving fully franked dividends and having a -- making profit and having a profit reserve. Currently, the profit reserve is $0.199, and that's after the payment of that last of the dividend on the 29th of October 2021. Wilson Asset Management is always focused on making a difference, whether it's making a difference for yourselves as shareholders and performing on your behalf, whether it's standing up for what we believe are your shareholders' rights or standing up for retail investors or whether it's making a difference in terms of giving back to the community that we operate in. That has been our focus. In terms of the advocacy work, standing up for what we believe are our shareholders' rights, obviously, you'd be aware of the work we did a few years ago about franking credits. More recently, then we were against labor. Today, we're against liberal. A lot of people thought back then it was a political angle. It wasn't at all. We were just focused on what we believe was best for -- and the fairest and equitable thing for our shareholders. Currently, we're very annoyed with the current government about what's occurring on virtual AGMs. You'll find once this AGM is finished, there is just no interaction, no strong interaction with the Board and management. Any company that has -- any company is owned by its shareholders. The Board is only there because of the shareholders. And for those directors, not to be -- not to report to shareholders in a -- from a physical perspective on at least 1 day in 1 year, to me, I think, is just totally unacceptable. And that's unfortunately what the current legislation potentially allows. A change in the constitution means there could be virtual AGMs forever. So we are very passionate about trying to stop that, and that is to the benefit of, I think, all retail investors, including our shareholders. Also, we've been very vocal more recently on the leveling of the playing field for retail investors, allowing to participate in placements and capital raisings at a discount to NTA and when they're not deemed as sophisticated or wholesale investors. New Zealand changed the rules in 2013. They saw the light and allowed listed companies to raise capital to all shareholders equitably and fairly, and that's what should happen in Australia. And we'd like the government to stand up and deliver that. In terms of shareholder engagement, we love -- the Board of WAM Capital loves what they do in terms of guiding this company on your behalf. Everyone at Wilson Asset Management who manage the money and who's involved in the company on your behalf is passionate about what they are doing. So please you as shareholders, we know you are passionate about the company as well. If you have any ideas or feedback, please, no matter what it is, please feed them back to us. That -- we really do appreciate that. The -- in terms of looking at the year ahead, the -- WAM Capital has had a solid start to the year. So far in 2022, our focus has continued on undervalued growth companies with a catalyst. And the investment portfolio has increased by about 3 -- sorry, has outperformed the market by about 3%, increasing 5.2% over the period to the 31st of October 2021. During the month of October, you'd see that we've made a takeover bid for PM Capital Asia. And we think, again, that the bid is -- will be a benefit for WAM Capital shareholders. Also in October, we purchased an unlisted investment company. A number of unlisted investment companies have approached us, and we're very happy to have conversations. And if we believe we can do something that's mutually beneficial for yourselves and ourselves, then we're very pleased to do that. That -- the company we purchased had $36 million of assets, and it was -- it represented a relatively short-term return of about 10% for us. One of the secondary outcomes was there was also a little under $4 million in franking credits. In terms of the outlook for the market, the market has had a very strong run driven by record low interest rates and the anticipated rebound in economic activity. I mean, it's interesting to see, as an investor, how people have oscillated between favoring the lockdown beneficiaries and then the various reopening trades. We're trying to focus on undervalued growth companies with a catalyst. They tend to be in the mid- and small-cap space. The -- at the moment, obviously, the macroeconomic environment with central banks on monetary policy, what they do is in sharp focus. And obviously, we'll adjust the portfolio when we think it's required. We're -- currently, the portfolio is positioned into companies that can generate strong top line organic growth, really irrespective of the outlook for the current coronavirus pandemic. We're positive on the medium-term earnings and economic outlook, and really despite those various headwinds we see as different variants. And we will continue with our long-standing methodology of investing in undervalued growth companies when we can see a catalyst. WAM Capital's growth assets like 23 years ago when we floated WAM Capital, it was a prospectus to raise $20 million. And now the gross assets are -- we are $1.723 billion. So look, thank you for everyone who's joined us on that journey. We started with a couple of thousand shareholders. Now we've got 43,319. Again, thank you for your support. And the portfolio at the end of October was made up of about -- that capital is invested in about 110 positions. Now ladies and gentlemen, we'll conduct the formal part of the meeting. There are 4 items of business for the AGM today, as set out in the Notice of Meeting. Three items are to be voted on. The Notice of Meetings were circulated to shareholders. In the absence of any objections, I'll be proceeding on the basis that the Notice of Meeting is taken as read. Jesse, are there any objections?

Geoff, no objections. But we've had a number of shareholder queries that we'll hopefully try and address at the end of the meeting.

Perfect. As mentioned earlier, we'll conduct a poll on all resolutions today and combine the votes with anyone who's sent in proxies. The -- since the polls are already open, if you'd like to vote now, please do so. Alternatively, you can vote with each resolution. If you make a mistake or change your mind, please select your preferred voting option, and that will override your original vote. I note that Boardroom are the returning officer for today's meeting and will conduct our poll. I further note, resolution 1 has voting exclusions, as outlined in the Notice of Meeting. The Board recommends approval of each resolution. And as Chairman, I'll be voting any open votes provided to me for each resolution. We'll advise the ASX as soon as the results are determined, and that will be a bit later on today. You submit any questions or comments you have anytime. And does anyone have any questions or comments on the financial statement report? If you can submit them now. The first item is to receive and consider the financial statements, the directors' reports and the auditor's reports for the company ended 30 June 2021. I mentioned earlier, Scott Whiddett from Pitcher is representing -- sorry, is here today. And there's no resolution on this matter. Jesse, is there any questions on that?

No questions.

Okay. There are no questions. So I'll move on to resolution 1. Resolution 1 relates to the adoption of the remuneration report. And if anyone has any questions or comments, please submit them now. Company has received proxies amounting 26,672,852 in favor; 4,557,191, against; 12,573,486 open. And of those, 8,641,251 have been granted to the Chair. And for those, I'll be voting in favor. Now have there been any questions submitted, Jesse, for that?

No questions on the remuneration report.

Okay. As there are no questions, I'll now put the motion that the resolution be approved as set out in the Notice of Meeting. If you're a shareholder or a proxyholder and eligible to vote, could you please vote now? [Voting]

Resolution 2 relates to the reelection of myself as director. And as such, I'd like to pass over to Katherine Anne Thorley to handle this resolution.

Thank you, Geoffrey James Wilson. So resolution 2 relates to your reelection. Geoff, would you like to say a few short words?

Well, thank you very much, Katherine. From my perspective, it's an honor to work for you all. To look at WAM Capital from when we lodged the prospectus 23-odd years ago, we tried to raise a minimum of $2.5 million and a maximum of $20 million. And we thought if we got to $20 million, we were doing well. And again, I'd just like to thank those 2,000-odd shareholders that supported us then. It took us a couple of years -- the first couple of years, WAM Capital traded at quite a big discount. Even though they paid -- it was giving a fully franked yield of only 12% and 14% fully franked for each of those 2 years. And so it has been a long journey. The -- I still believe I have something to add to the company. I would like to continue as a director of WAM Capital. And I think for WAM Capital, there is still some significant opportunities ahead. So I ask you all to vote for me, please. And I'd like to pass back to Kate.

That's great. Thanks, Geoff. You can now submit any questions or comments that you have on resolution 2. The company has received proxies amounting to 32,894,265 in favor of this resolution; 481,957 against; and 12,328,827 open, of which 8,361,487 have been granted to the Chair. And for these, I will be voting in favor of the resolution. Gee, these are some big numbers. We will pause now to allow for any questions that have been submitted to be received on our end.

No questions. Just a comment in terms of, from [ John ], how long can we hope for your excellent chairmanship to continue?

That's nice, [ John ]. Well, the -- you should ask the Board because the Board sort of decided who's chair, and they mightn't think it's excellent chairmanship. But no, [ John ], my view is like I'm 63 now. A number of years ago, I sort of put 80 as sort of the -- that was what I was aiming for. But when we created the Future Gen vehicles, one of them supported youth metal health. And everyone we met on the mental health side said that, "Look, you need -- you should -- you don't retire. You keep going." So I've sort of put that out now. My dad made up till 87. If I was just looking at numbers when I was born, I'd probably -- I think I'm probably going to make to 93. So who knows. Like I'm happy to be Chairman at 90, if you'd have me.

That's great. Thanks, Geoff. And as there are no further questions or comments, I now put the motion that Mr. Geoff Wilson be reelected as set out in the Notice of Meeting. And if you are a shareholder or proxyholder and eligible to vote online, could you now please complete your vote for resolution 2? [Voting]

Thank you, Kate. Now we have resolution 3, which is the reelection of Director Lindsay Mann. Lindsay joined us a number of years ago with -- when I -- when we had a merger with another listed investment company. And Lindsay has been invaluable in terms of sitting on as a director. Obviously, I'll pass to Lindsay in a few minutes. But in terms of a man with an eye for detail, he is exceptional. Obviously, it's his actuarial skills. And on behalf of all shareholders, the amount of mistakes and little errors that you found over time, I think, are invaluable. So now Lindsay, can I -- I'll pass over to you to say a few words.

Thanks, Geoff. I made the common error of not [indiscernible]. Well, good afternoon, everyone. I'm very pleased to offer myself for reelection to the position of Nonexecutive Director on the Board of WAM Capital. I've been a director of your company since 2012. I can't claim credit for the investment performance of the company's portfolio in that period, but I have contributed to the good governance and capital management of the company, which are the specific focus of the Board. My experience as a Chief Executive Officer of a number of fund management companies in different parts of the world has equipped me with skills and knowledge required to maintain oversight of our Investment Manager on your behalf. My training and experiences in actuary, which Geoff just referred, give me a particular insight into risks and a concern for good corporate governance. I have many years of experience as a nonexecutive director, both independent and nonindependent, of investment funds in many jurisdictions internationally and also in Australia. It's been my pleasure to serve you on the Board with a very competent and dedicated group of directors and to work with an outstanding and very successful investment team led by Geoff Wilson. I'd be delighted if you would support me and allow me to continue to serve shareholders in this position for another 3 years. Thank you.

Thank you, Lindsay. Now if anyone has any questions for this resolution, please submit them now. The company has received proxies amounting to 32,518,857, for; 639,215, against; 12,380,076, open, of which 8,382,736 have been granted to the Chair. And for these, I'll be voting in favor of the resolution. Jesse, do we have any questions on that resolution?

No questions for Lindsay.

Okay. I'll now put the motion that Lindsay Mann be reelected as set out in the Notice of Meeting. Obviously, if you're a shareholder or a proxyholder, please vote. [Voting]

Now we -- I will be closing the poll in the next few minutes -- sorry, in the next minute. So if you can -- if anyone hasn't voted, please vote. I mentioned earlier, the Boardroom will be counting the votes. And the results -- I also mentioned earlier, the results of the AGM will be announced on the ASX a little later today. I now declare that the poll closed. Now I'd like to open up for any general questions you had. Jesse, you mentioned there's been a few in.

Yes. Perfect. First one is from [ David ], Geoff. It's been reported that you were quoted in The Australian saying that you would not advise your daughter to invest in WAM Capital. Can you elaborate on this?

Yes. Thank you, [ David ]. Great question, and that's a very fair question. The -- let me just give you a little bit of background. The reason why that article ran was, I mentioned earlier, we made a takeover bid for the PM Capital Asian fund. And obviously, PM Capital -- obviously, the fact that -- we made our bid unconditional. So in sort of -- if you read The Art of War, I mean, that's where we are. Obviously, the fact that we went over 10% of PM Capital on a takeover bid has aggravated and annoyed the PM Capital guy significantly. They briefed Richard, the journalist who normally writes on banks. And when he rang me on Friday, and he had all these quotes. They've done a lot of research. They've given them all the quotes. They had look through a whole lot of stuff, spent -- wasted a lot of time. But obviously, to me, it's sort of questions where they fit in. But look, we won't talk about their situation. And yes, when he rang me, I said, "Look, obviously, we're getting under their skin." The -- most of those quotes obviously were taken out of context. As I've always said, and I've said, too, at AGMs before, like in theory, you want to buy $1 of assets as cheaply as you can. For a dollar of assets is -- if you can buy $1 of assets for $0.80, that's what you do. Like that's what we do. If you buy a -- if a $1 of assets is trading at $1.10 or $1.20, you got to question, why is that the case? And for that, I'm sure a number of them heard it before, and I told this to the journalist. But of course, the journalist didn't want to -- he was using their side of the story. He didn't want to quote my side. I explained how -- I remember probably about 5 years into WAM Capital's operation, I had a call from a shareholder and he said, "Look, you're trading at a 10% premium. I'm thinking about buying shares." And I said, "Look, why are you buying shares at a 10% premium?" And he said, "Look, I want you to answer me one question. Do you believe that the -- do you believe that you'll outperform the market by 1% per annum over the next 10 years?" And I said, "Look, I'd be incredibly disappointed if we didn't outperform by significantly better than that." And obviously, I assume he bought shares. And he, therefore, has been rewarded. The -- when I was quoted the Switzer article, it was actually -- it was talking about the WAM products. You had an opportunity to buy one at a discount and then one at a premium. So which do you buy? The one in the premium with WAM Capital. The other question is, what will it do in terms of what can it deliver you over time? What fully franked yield can it deliver you over time? I mean, I actually bought some WAM Capital, I think it was at probably a 10% or 15% premium to NTA, was it -- when the amaysim takeover bid was on, around that 2008, 2009 level. So I'm happy to buy at a premium if I believe that the outperformance will be good over time. And if you read that article in detail, I say later on, he does quote me in context somewhere, but of course, he used all the negative -- whatever. The people that have given him that information, the other fund manager, had actually -- he's got to be loyal to them because it makes him look good. So he writes their part of the story in the first half and our part of the story to argue, it's more balanced in the second part. But hey, look, the market's the market. Like WAM Capital is trading at a premium to NTA. If you could buy WAM -- my question is, if I could buy WAM Capital at a discount or a premium, of course, I'd prefer to buy it at a discount. And then the question is, if you're a shareholder, what do you think we can deliver to shareholders over time? And by whatever premium we're at, we've got to outperform by that and whether the fully franked yield actually makes up for some of that. And you just got to take all that into consideration. So it's not as simple as just saying one or the other. And unfortunately, like a lot of those quotes were used out of context for his benefit.

Great. Thanks, Geoff. We've got 2 questions sort of here on the same topic. What is the strategy of WAM now that WAM Strategic Value has been formed? And why has WAM bid for PAF, PM Capital Asian Opportunities Fund, versus WAM Strategic Value?

Okay. The first one, WAM Capital will always do what it's done. And that's half the portfolio is buying undervalued growth companies when we can see a catalyst, and the other half of the portfolio is trading opportunities. With -- in that other half of the portfolio, so I'd say $850 million of capital, 10% of that was invested in other LICs or closed-end funds that trade at a discount. And really -- but that's buying $1 of assets at $0.80, and that's more a long-term play. And so what we did is we put that money into WAM Strategic Value or those holdings into WAM Strategic Value. So if people want that pure play, they can get it at WAM Strategic. With WAM Capital -- so therefore, that full 50% is trading opportunities. Now turning the portfolio over 3 or 4x a year and just focus on making money, very short-term trading opportunities. So that's where that fits in. And the second question, Jesse, was -- what was?

It was why has WAM bid for PAF versus WAM Strategic Value?

The reason why -- yes, I mean, the reason why WAM Capital has bid for PAF, when you look at PAF, $65 million of assets, the -- WAM Capital is trading at a premium or has an opportunity to use the premium share price to bid for assets that -- at a -- and which is automatically NTA accretive to WAM Capital. And also, one of the secondary benefits of PAF, if we're successful, is there are significant franking credits in PAF. But that's more a secondary benefit. Why didn't WAM Strategic make the bid? WAM Strategic is currently trading at a little bit of a discount to NTA. So it didn't make sense for them to make the bid.

Great. Thanks, Geoff. Another question that we have here in terms of what do you attribute the drop of approximately $0.16 to $0.17 per share in the share price over the last month? So about a month ago, the WAM share price was trading at around $2.40, and that was heading into the ex-dividend date. And now it's trading at around $2.23 today.

Yes. I mean, to me, as Jesse sort of hit the nail on the head is effectively, what you tend to find is that WAM outperforms into the dividend payment because a lot of people are buying it for the dividend. And the great thing is we have the profit reserve. So in theory, you'd assume there's -- and obviously, they are Board decisions. But you'd assume there's a good chance that the dividend can be maintained in the next 6-month period. So you'll see outperforming that over that period. And then when it goes ex dividend, so you've got to remember, we've paid -- that drop, part of that drop is the payment of the $0.0775 fully franked. So I mean, that's been part of the drop. So the other drop is -- look, there could be a little bit of a halving in the PAF, people buying PAF and accepting the bid and selling WAM. But that's only very -- that will just be short term, and it will be washed through. And you'd assume it's -- when we announce the next dividend, obviously, then all of a sudden, the -- sort of seeing is believing. When we announce that the next dividend is coming, you tend to find like it outperforms into the payment of the dividend. So you get outperformance on one side, which may mean you get a little bit of underperformance on the other side when it goes ex dividend.

Right. Thanks, Geoff. I've got 2 questions here on a similar topic. So WAM has grown significantly over the past few years with a lot of acquisitions. Will we see a halt to these takeovers? And the question was sort of coinciding with the dividend has remained flat over the last few years. And will we see an increase to the dividend? Or is there a chance of a dividend cut?

Yes. The -- I mean, effectively, the Board made a decision 2 years ago when all -- when nearly all companies were cutting dividends, the Board made a decision to maintain the dividend. Now what the Board could have easily done -- and that was because we had the profit reserve and the franking credits. And our view is, from a Board's perspective, the franking credits are a lot better in shareholders' hands than the company's hands. Now we could have been prudent like all -- other Boards, and we could have cut the dividend from $0.155, say, to $0.10. And then we could have -- 2 years ago, and then we could have increased it by 20% to $0.12 last year. And then we could pay $0.14 this year and then get back to $0.16 the year after or something like that. So I mean, that's the dividend strategy we could adopt. I mean, what the Board decided is, no, look, let's bite the bullet. We've got the franking. We've got the profit reserve. Let's keep it at that rate. So that's why we did that. So that was the dividend one. What was the other -- and the other question, Jesse, was?

So a follow-up to that is with the growth in the size of the company and the takeovers. So I guess, will we see a halt in these takeovers? And as the company grows, can you continue to focus on small caps with a larger fund size?

The -- well, in terms of the takeovers and growth, I mean, the takeovers are more working -- more strategic. And we only do them if we believe they make sense. And you'll see in the annual report the significant benefits that shareholders have got from the various takeovers we've made in terms of franking being received or returned. So I mean, it's just -- the takeover is just another way of getting a return. And you'll see them, they are significant returns. In a couple of the takeovers last year, 40% plus returns. The fact that we just happen to do it via a takeover, it's sort of like Warren Buffett. He takes companies over. In the early days, he used to just buy bits of companies. And as you get bigger, then you've got to buy bigger bits until you buy 100% of the companies. And so that -- and we've -- like when we were $20 million, obviously, we couldn't make those takeovers. We were just buying a couple of shares in the companies. And so that changes. And so we'll continue to do that if the opportunities present themselves and if the Board believes it's in the shareholders' interest and it's a good return. So that's the takeover part. And then the other part, Jesse, was the -- what was the second part? [ I keep forgetting ] the second part.

That's all right. As the company grows, can you continue to focus on that small and mid-cap area of the market?

Yes. And as the company grows, can we -- well, the answer is the companies you've got to focus on has to grow as well. I mean, that's why we created WAM Microcap because that was really to focus on the really small companies, less than $300 million of cap. And then WAM Capital is focused on the more medium, smaller but medium-sized companies. So I mean, we -- you see we haven't done a sort of a share purchase plan or a placement for a period of time. We've tended to grow by the takeovers, and that's because we're pretty happy with the size of the fund. There will be more corporate activity. There are more opportunities to grow, and that's how we see that. And I think there'll be more rationalization in the LIC space. And we're beautifully positioned to benefit from that and to benefit -- to the benefit of our shareholders.

All right. Thanks, Geoff. That's all the questions. Just 2 final comments. One shareholder, just to clarify, references to PAF is reference to PM Capital, not Platinum. And a comment from [ John ] thanking you for your work in advocating for in-person AGMs and equity in participating in capital raisings.

Great. Look, thank you, guys. And if you have any other questions or comments or, please, suggestions because it's your company, and please, I mean, communicate with us. We really enjoy engaging with you. The -- what I'd like to do is now declare the AGM closed. I'd like to thank our 43,319 loyal WAM Capital shareholders. We greatly appreciate all your support and particularly over this period, which had been very challenging. We look forward to seeing you again in person soon. I'd also like to thank the Wilson Asset Management team for their tireless effort on behalf of all shareholders as well as my fellow Board members, whose guidance and expertise make an invaluable contribution. Thank you.