Webuild S.p.A. (WBD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. Welcome and thank you for joining the Webuild First Half 2020 Financial Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Pietro Salini, CEO of Webuild. Please go ahead, sir.

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our conference call dedicated to Webuild first half results. I'm Pietro Salini, Chief Executive of the group, and I will give a few words about our performance during this period before letting Massimo Ferrari go into further details on the results. I'm certain that it will come as no surprise to you that the COVID-19 pandemic disrupted the business activity for more companies, pretty much everywhere. I'm happy to say that the number of our projects that had to slow down, if not suspend, their operation has been reduced since the virus become an emergency early this year. Safety at work is a top priority for us. I cannot emphasize this enough. We were quickly to apply extra health and safety measures at our -- all our construction sites to ensure that our people could keep working without fear. These measures like social distancing obviously had an impact on our productivity. But the group's underlying profitability remains solid, thanks also to our well-spread geographical presence. The brief decline in activity at our operations did weigh somewhat on our profit margins. There were also the additional costs of complying with the extra health and safety standards required by clients and governments. Productivity took a dip as a result of social distancing and other measures. The part of the additional cost will be borne by our clients, and we have requested those costs to be reimbursed. We continue to have a solid diversified construction backlog of EUR 34 billion around, including the contribution of Astaldi. Except for few exception, operation has restarted, although not all of them have returned to production levels before the lockdown. A return to food production is expected in the second half '20, but COVID is not all about our results in this first month of 2020. Our Progetto Italia is becoming a reality. There was the final approval from the tribunal of the Astaldi composition with creditors. A process that will be completed with a capital increase within 120 days since that approval. Let me explain to you that the operation that we are doing with Astaldi is an extraordinary occasion of growth. We are consolidating a company that will transform the group and give it a different future. Before the pandemic, we expected growth in order backlog, revenues and cash generation already for this year. Due to the impact of COVID, this growth has been impacted by the acquisition, which I will describe more in details later on, will bring to the group more than EUR 6.4 billion of construction backlog, will create a group with an aggregated basis of revenues of over EUR 6.3 billion with an increase of about 15% versus prior year with a positive contribution to EBITDA and EBIT margins without including any synergies and regularization effect. In addition to greater scale, it will bring a stronger equity and even more important, it will bring a net cash contribution. The combined effect of Astaldi aggregation in the stimulus from the so-called Decreto Rilancio will completely neutralize the negative impact on working capital due to COVID-19 outbreak. We expect a significant improvement of our combined net financial position by year-end. The improvement can go as far as to become cash positive by a significant extent. Our attention to United Nations Sustainable Development Goals was acknowledged by many independent ESG-rating agencies, like Vigeo Eiris and Morgan Stanley Capital International. Projects that support these goals represent more than 85% of our revenues from contracts with customers and backlog orders. Furthermore, we include 2 nonfinancial key performance indexes to the long-term incentive plans for 2020, '22, which will be linked to the reduction of accident at works and the reduction of CO2 emissions. On Slide 4, we have a table that lists the measures that we adopted to adjust to COVID-19. You will see we did our utmost to protect the health of our workers. For example, we implemented smart working for all staff in Italy. We canceled most business travel in our locally specialized workers and managers. We enhanced the sanitation on more or sites, provided our people with protection equipment and ensure adequate social distancing on the base camps. Although some construction sites, we are forced to shut down for short periods of time in order to adapt to the new containment measures, we managed to keep most of them open. In Italy, sites like the new Genoa bridge were considered strategically important and were allowed to remain open throughout the lockdown. We stayed in close contact with clients throughout this difficult period to better manage costs and handle certain delays caused by the pandemic. Our supply chain management was able to keep projects operating wherever possible. We also started a program to maintain strict cost discipline, reviewing direct and indirect cost at our offices and work sites. We kept an intense commercial activity. We have come out of this period with a strong liquidity position due to a prudent drawdown of available credit lines. About EUR 750 million of cash is available at the corporate level. We also do not have any relevant debt coming due this year, nor in the first half of 2021. The refinancing of the EUR 479 million bond expiring in June '21 has already started with EUR 250 million used in January 2020, and we plan to go to the market again in autumn this year. On Slide 5, you can see the most relevant facts happened during the first half 2020 and related to the Italian market, notwithstanding the pandemic. First of all, let me highlight the great achievement of the new Genoa bridge. We completed it in record time and despite COVID-19 outbreak. Since March, when the virus began to spread uncontrollably. We worked very hard to apply extra measure to allow up to 1,000 people to continue working on a project considered by the government as strategically important. I'm very proud to say that this allowed us to complete the project in record time. The bridge, which -- structure was completed in 12 months, will be inaugurated next month. Progetto Italia was conceived not only to consolidate Italy high fragmented construction sector, but also to relaunch it. It is a sector that has suffered many years from lack of investment. But the issued relaunch of the sector passes through the unblocking of shovel-ready project and new legislations. In recent months, the government has acknowledged the need to release funds that were already assigned to the construction of public works. Approximately EUR 40 billion of project has been identified as shovel-ready, EUR 28 billion of which for 2020 and '21. These projects include the high speed railway between Verona and Padua. There is a discussion table with Rete Ferroviaria Italiana, the client, and we expect to give you very positive news on that front very soon. We are talking about a project which total value is estimated in more than EUR 4 billion with a first functional lot of EUR 2.4 billion. Finalization of the contract in its final stage and following the signing of the contract, the related advanced payments can be cashed in. Other examples include a third Mega Lot of the Ionian state highway that had also remained blocked for years. Then there is another ferroviario railway up in Genoa. This one has also been blocked for years because of the company that had won the contract had gone into financial distress. At legislative level, a recent government decree knows as the Relaunch Decree allows for advanced payment to be made on a project for up to 30% of its receivable value. This will apply until June '21. It is also applied to projects that were already underway. Massimo Ferrari will explain to you what this means for us later in the call. A second decree the simplification one, aims, among other things, to speed up the tender process and the time between the wording of a contract and the start of the work, if we also reduce the risk of interrupting works already underway with the creation of a special fund to finance project. What is planned in the signing of the extraordinary commissioner to project deemed strategic for the country. These projects have been identified in the so-called Italia Veloce plan, which foresees EUR 196 billion of investment in railways, roads, ports and airports, a potential boost for high speed railway projects. Moving to Slide 6. We can focus better on Astaldi acquisition. The long process of Webuild acquiring Astaldi will soon be coming to an end after Rome court approval of composition with the creditors on July 17. What is next is the capital increase at Astaldi we will conduct in the autumn to allow us to become its majority shareholder. The process has been a long one. Our offer for Astaldi dates back to February '19. The completion of the acquisition is an important step of our group in achieving the objectives set out under Progetto Italia. This is our initiative to consolidate the construction sector in Italy, to create a bigger player, we have solid foundation its [ home ] market so we can compete in international market from a positive -- from a position of strength. It is also to allow the group to make a bigger difference in helping Italian recover with the government renewing investment in important public works. If Astaldi were already part of Webuild we would have contributed, besides EUR 6.4 billion of construction order backlog, approximately EUR 630 million in revenues in the first half of the year and EUR 160 million in net cash. Astaldi will contribute to increased group dimension and to a lower financial leverage. Approximately 1/3 of the order backlog is in common with us, that gives us greater visibility on Astaldi accounts and forecast. Before the end of the year, we will be presenting a new business plan that will make the most of the synergies offered by the Astaldi acquisition. Let's now take a minute to review how our project performance during the COVID-19 pandemic on the first half of the year. Future potential evolution of the pandemic and its related impacts are still unpredictable. On Slide 7, I will start with Italy. Activity slowed down in March and April on construction sites in the northern region of Lombardy and Liguria. Projects like the high speed, high capacity railway between Genoa and Milano, the metro line in Milano and the new headquarters of ENI. There were the also measures taken in the Brenner Base Tunnel between Italy and Austria. There were brief period during which work was suspended to adapt the project site with the new containment measures. Since May, we gradually increased our level of production. In the south, things were less severe. Project like -- Napoli Cancello section of the railway being built between Naples and Bari slowed down somewhat due to the application of additional health and safety measures. Others like the Apice Irpinia section of the railway were not affected, nor was the Ionian highway since the work being done was mostly planning and preparation for the start of construction. Then there is a new Genoa bridge, a project where the collaboration between the contractor and the extraordinary commissioner made possible something incredible. A project who's model, we hope to be applied to other product elsewhere in the country to help give a boost to an economy that has been severely hit by the pandemic. Elsewhere in Europe, public authorities in France and Switzerland asked us in April to suspend work on projects like the Parc du Simplon in Lausanne and the 2 metro lines for the Grand Paris Express. The work began slowly regaining momentum in May and June. Similar precautionary measures we're taking in Qatar and Saudi Arabia, where the rate of production slowed by 50%. We expect it to return to full rate in the second half of the year. In Latin America, we were required to halt works at Riachuelo sites in Argentina as well as the metro line in Lima during the months of April and May. As work is returning to its normal grip. North America, our single biggest market by revenue remained resilient during the first half of the year. Only Cabot Yard had to slow down in March and April. Australia was virtually unaffected, while in Tajikistan precautionary measures slowed down our operation. The page also shows how our strategy to reduce the group's risk exposure is brought down to 41%, how much our top 10 projects are responsible for total revenues. More than 85% of revenues come from projects that support sustainable development, while those that help reduce carbon emission reached 55%. Slide 8 shows our sizable backlog of construction orders. Some EUR 27.4 billion, and now this backlog is well distributed across the many markets that we are present. More than half of that account -- amount comes from countries that are low risk. No orders have been canceled as a result of COVID-19, and this is a very important to be highlighted as the slowdown on production due to pandemic is not a loss, but only a temporary shift and fully recoverable. Two numbers on the slide, once again, highlights our shift towards projects help client achieve Sustainable Development Goals set by the United Nations. More than 85% of the construction backlog contribute to advancement of those -- of these goals while more than 55% are designed to reduce carbon emission. Turning you to Slide 9, despite COVID-19, in the first half of the year, saw our group continued to acquire new orders and maintain an intense commercial activity. There are EUR 11.6 billion worth of tenders awaiting in outcomes, more than 50% in comparison 2019. Of course, there were also many cases in which a bidding process was either postponed or canceled. A total of about EUR 10 billion worth of contracts have been postponed to '21, mostly in Europe and in the United States, about EUR 45 million of which were due to the pandemic. Year-to-date, we have acquired EUR 1.9 billion worth of new orders, of which more than 70% of our new orders come from countries that we have identified as low risk. As a sign of how important we view Australia as a market, the amount of tender that we have submitted during the first 6 months of 2020 is more than doubled in comparison with the total value of 2019. Slide 10 shows the size of our commercial pipeline, some EUR 40 billion. The value of projects for which we prequalified reached more than EUR 20 billion, a significant increase from the same period last year. One factor is the number of mega projects for which we are bidding with joint venture partners in United States. Despite these uncertain times, the group network of branch offices throughout the world was able to produce a solid commercial pipeline. It is thanks to their effort that we increase our selected market to new opportunities, mainly in Australia and in North America. Italy, North America, Europe and Australia, remain the markets where our group is concentrating its efforts. I will now let Massimo, our General Manager, Corporate and Finance, take you through the details of our first half results and final remarks.

Thank you, Pietro, and good morning to everybody. We can start from Slide 12. As previously explained, our business as well as the overall economy has been affected by the outbreak of COVID-19 and like many other peers. Before going through the numbers, it's worth remembering that our business consists of [ purely ] annual contracts, who's revenues deployment are based on the work done on the projects. So part of the slowdown in this month will be absorbed in the second part of the year. We did not have contract cancellation -- material contract cancellations during the pandemic, and we have a strong construction backlog of EUR 27.4 billion stand-alone plus Astaldi, we will achieve by year-end, more than EUR 33 billion of backlog. So we are in a very safe condition in comparison with many other different businesses. Let's now go into further details by starting with the top line and margin performance. The figures that we are going to present include the length and consolidated joint venture results. In addition for first half 2020, exclude the effect on P&L of the segment agreement with Condotte d'Acqua in regards to the COCIV transfer of Ownership because, as you know, we bought the stake in the high speed train project between Milano and Genoa from Condotte d'Acqua. Revenues amounted to EUR 2.2 billion, which compares to EUR 2.7 billion in the same period last year. As of today, all activities, excluding a limited number of exceptions, have restarted, although some from a productivity level lower than the period before the shutdown. All activities are expected to be back at normal rhythm in the second half of 2020. EBITDA was about EUR 111 million. EBIT was about EUR 35 million. Both EBITDA and EBIT margins were affected by business mix where projects with higher marginality suffered from the production slowdown due to the COVID-19. Margin were affected also by lower absorption of fixed costs, both at corporate and project level and the cost increase in specific supplies for safety and labor risk prevention. We started talks with clients about recognition on the additional costs and inefficiencies related to the pandemic. Fixed costs include also those for commercial activities. As was explained by Pietro, it was maintained at a sustainable level in order to develop the business -- the commercial plan that Pietro mentioned before. Furthermore, margins have been impacted by about EUR 13 million of nonrecurring costs related to Progetto Italia. The COVID-19 emergency revealed the opportunity to effectively adopt new ways of working turning challenges into new cost optimization opportunities. We launched the comprehensive cost leadership program to improve group EBIT margin by 1 percentage point in 1 to 2 years that we will show when we will update the business plan. On Slide 13, we have the P&L below the EBIT line. The financial charges were EUR 77 million compared to EUR 58 million in the prior year. They reflect bank charges related to interest on beyond the credit line versus Astaldi for approximately EUR 5 million. These were offset by almost an equivalent amount of a positive financial income. Furthermore, there was a negative impact from the devaluation of some many different small financial asset approximately for EUR 8 million. There was a negative impact from exchange rates for EUR 14 million compared to a positive one for EUR 9 million in the same period of the prior year. The impact is mainly related to Latin America currencies, which have been impacted by the COVID-19 emergency. On this point, let me remind you that besides short-term swings, P&L resulting from exchange rate fluctuations end after being neutral in the long run, and with no relevant impact on cash flow. Taxes charges amounted to EUR 27 million compared to EUR 47 million of the prior year. On Slide 14, we have reported the cash flow for the first half of 2020. As expected, the pandemic had a negative effect on both production and credit collection. On that side, we continue to serve our suppliers and subcontractors according to schedule to assure the continuity of the projects. It's worthy to highlight that the financial effect deriving from Article 207 of the relaunch -- the so-called, the Relaunch Decree. This decree allows for contractual advanced payment of up to 30%. This will be done within the limits and compatibility of the resources allocated every year to the client. The decree also favors contractors who have already benefited from contractually foreseen advances or who have already started work on projects without receiving any advance. This decree is expected to have significant impacts on the second half of the year in terms of cash flow for group -- for the entire group, including also Astaldi for the part that we will consolidate in 2020. We estimate a full potential impact of EUR 1.7 billion that could lead to a positive net financial position as potential. Let me now have a short flashback on what we discussed during our last call on March 2020. We mentioned that our cash flow was affected by approximately EUR 237 million of cash in shift due on Italian operation. As of today, we have cashed in the whole amount coming from the high speed train project between Milano and Genoa. Overall, around EUR 250 million and approximately another EUR 40 million are expected to be cashed in from -- in September. Going back to cash flow for the first half 2020, CapEx amounted to EUR 78 million, up from EUR 56 million for the same period of the prior year. So confirming you that we are still investing at full capacity in our project. This was mainly related to the start of the Snowy 2.0 project in Australia, which will be offset by contractual advances to be cashed in by year-end. The cash flow has been affected also by an increase in short-term fiscal assets for EUR 25 million on a 1-year basis. Moving to Slide 15. You can see the evolution of the liquidity. We closed the first half of 2020 with a record cash in our hands around EUR 2 billion total cash and other financial assets. This come -- part of this come from the credit lines, the drawdowns, that we made on late February of credit lines, which were available at the end of 2019. They move at the purpose of maintaining an adequate level of cash at corporate level for any eventuality, so for prudential and conservative purpose. As of June, we have EUR 750 million of cash that could be used at any time to repay corporate debt. Furthermore, we granted to Astaldi second tranche of interim financing for an additional EUR 65 million. The total amount of interim financing now stands at EUR 150 million to Astaldi. Excluding the EUR 65 million coming from our Beyond subsidiary from -- for the interim financing for Astaldi and the cash prudentially at corporate level, gross debt amounted to EUR 2.2 billion, approximately in line with the first -- the end -- the full year 2019. The net financial position was EUR 1.1 billion, the related -- the ratio of net equity stands at 0.78x, improving from the first half of 2019. Moving to Slide 16. We see the maturities of our corporate debt. We have no long-term debt maturity until the end of June 2021, month of repayment of the 2021 bond. In January, as you know, we started the refinancing of the 2021 bond through a first issue of EUR 250 million, of which EUR 127 million were exchanged for 2021 notes. As regards to the bond expiring in June, we are currently monitoring primary market evolution in order to define a potential time line for going back to the market. Given the recovery of the current trading of our 2024 and 2027 bonds, a new senior unsecured issue could be of interest in the coming months. In recent years, we have been able to benefit from low interest rates setting more than 70% of our corporate debt at fixed rates. The average cost of debt stands at an outstanding 2.6%. On Slide 17, to sum up, you can see the strategic pillars for our long-term growth. First of all, Progetto Italia, will create an Italian champion in the infrastructure sector with the acquisition of Astaldi and the other players and projects that can be aggregated and be integrated in Progetto Italia. Webuild will have greater scale, be more efficient, manage a less volatile portfolio and have a more flexible and solid financial position. The expertise and resources that the group will have will make it more competitive in bidding for projects anywhere in the world. We are also considering complementary businesses that could stabilize cash flow. One of these would be road and highway maintenance. If you look at Italy, there are more than 7,000 kilometers of highways and more than 20,000 kilometer of state roads that need to be maintained and repaired. It's a market towards billions of euros. The idea and the project for us would be to create a company that bids for contracts and then coordinates the work to be done with local businesses. We have already in mind some business unit of our peers to be included in Progetto Italia that could help us to develop this new business model. The aggregation of hundreds of tender into one bigger contract could help to save time for lots, which need huge maintenance, could boost innovation for monitoring the status of the projects and reduce cost of maintenance, thanks to correct timing of intervention and could allow lower cost, thanks to a supply chain managed at global level. We will keep expanding in markets that have a potential for the group, such as Australia, Middle East and North America. Our focus will be on projects that support sustainable development, hydroelectric dams, metro lines and railways, to name a few. These are complex public works that offer higher returns on sales. Of course, any contracts we bid for would go through our strict selection process. Last, but not least, we are continuing our efficiency and make our cost structure leaner and more effective. Moving to the last slide, I believe, Slide 18. You can see our expectations for second half 2020. As you can well imagine with the spread of the coronavirus and the global effort to contain it, it's very complicated to set targets during this time of great uncertainty. Market trends and as urbanization and water scarcity are confirmed as key drivers for medium- to long-term growth, our overall strategy also remain in place. Thanks to the intense commercial activity, we expect to be able to reach a book-to-bill around 1x the revenues for the year. We expect an overall recovery of our operation both in terms of productivity and margin. As I discussed before, revenue and margin are not lost just postponed and will be recovered during the project life cycle. Before year ending, it is expected to be approved the capital increase in Astaldi, which allow us to consolidate it and the acquisition will be accretive for the group, both in terms of operating and financial results. On that time, we expect to present a 3 years business plan for the combined entity. I will now leave to the Q&A section. Thank you very much.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Matteo Bonizzoni of Kepler.

I have 3 questions. The first one is on the 2020 outlook. You are clearly refraining from providing a precise guidance. You are saying that you are going to partly catch up the execution delay, which you had in the first half, which generated this 18% revenues decline. Can you elaborate a little bit more, let's say, for example, to assume for the full year, some mid-single-digit revenues decline, could it make sense in your view? Or can you, in any case, elaborate on the moving parts here? The second question is on the expected impact of this decrease in Italy, as regards advanced payments. You detailed that the potential impact could come up to EUR 1.7 billion. But it depends also on the availability of resources on a project basis. So if you have to quantify, what could be the real impact for your working capital and financial position? Can you provide a little bit more color? And the third and last question is on the refinancing plan, which you have for the next month. Can you elaborate also a little bit more on this point?

Thank you, Matteo. For the guidance, we are assuming the combined -- of course, the combined revenues of Webuild with Astaldi. And this means that we can improve a little bit our figures for the year-end and, let's say, have a slight impact of the COVID to the end of the year in respect to the revenues of last year. So this is what is assumed on our scenario that we are doing now. And of course, we assume that Astaldi will have a turnover that is based on what is done so far, and it's been communicated to the market and taking some, let's say, some haircut on what was the figures that were given by the -- by their -- the plan that was attached to the creditors' operation. So assuming all that and assuming this restart of the work that we are now foreseeing in our activity worldwide and the impact of COVID, which is under the present scenario, we can figure out that these figures of EUR 6.3 billion that we gave are, let's say, overall, of course, including Astaldi, it is something that is safe. And for the other question...

For the Astaldi, which period, do you include Astaldi for...

This is the aggregation of the full year of Astaldi and full year of -- Webuild, sorry. It is, of course, not an accounting standard figures. It is just to give an idea of what is the combined footprint of the revenues of both company and the aggregation of those numbers, this is to be -- it is not our targets in terms of accounting.

For The other question, Matteo, we assume to get from the Relaunch Decree reasonably around 40% of the potential EUR 1.6 billion in our target for 2020 net financial position. This means that together, Webuild and Astaldi can have a positive impact of EUR 650 million of advanced payment that we can cash in. Regarding the refinancing, as I told before, we followed very carefully the debt capital market that improved significantly. And we can consider to go to the market on September. And also, we are looking at the convertible opportunity that is always an instrument that could be considered for a mix -- an efficient mix of refinancing.

The next question is from Alessandro Tortora with Mediobanca.

Yes. I have 3 questions, if I may. The first one is on the CapEx you expect for this year considering that you mentioned in the first half that was a bit higher than expected to support project in Australia. So if you can give us an idea of the level of CapEx you expect by year-end? The second question is on the Texas Central contract. If you can share with us any news or update and when you are going to potentially include this contract into your order backlog? So basically, the notice to proceed. And the third question is, again, on the advanced payment, potential upside from higher loss payments. Can you give us very, very simply an idea for distance for the Verona Padua contract that you mentioned in the presentation that is a contract that could start really soon. Can you give us an idea of the incremental advance, for instance, you expect from this project? And again, related to this question, in theory, this is a measure that will expire next year, June next year. So we could assume that this is a very important support for you in order basically to speed up production. But at the end of the game, after June 2021, we should get a renormalization to the normal level of advances. I would like just to understand how you consider -- how do you consider this measure for you? This is basically a support for the production, okay, much more than an injection of liquidity in the short term.

Yes. I will start with the question related to the Texas high-speed train. As you have seen, Texas is one of the countries in the U.S., which has been most affected by the COVID-19. We were expecting to receive the final order not to proceed by the end of the year. We think that this could be maintained so far. As you know, also, this project has entered into the stimulus for what can be done to restart the economy and the economic boost for the recovery plan in the U.S. And also it has received recently, all the approval that was needed and still lacking for the implementation of that project. So I think that we are in a very positive situation. Of course, operation now, physically, are impeded by the situation of the COVID. But I think, very soon, we will have some good news outflow from -- coming from there. This is what is our appreciation of the situation now. I don't want to anticipate anything on that. But I think that we are in a positive situation. For what's related also to the signature of this contract. You remember that we had in, as Impregilo, at that time, a large part of Italian backlog that was not producing any revenues. It was there since long. As far as we are now viewing as those contracts are starting to produce revenue. So it means that we are restarting all the Italian franchise. And this contract in Verona Padua is finished, we've finished negotiation. We expect, if God is neutral, to sign it before going to holidays, so let's say, in the next coming week...

Days.

Days, because, of course, we are eager to go. But let's say -- and this -- we started the first EUR 2.4 billion. It is the first lot of functional, they call it. And that is made by 2 lots of [ functionality ] and I don't want to answer it to complicate the issue. But let's say, this means EUR 2.4 billion. It means also that the 30% advance, which is foreseen by the law, is applicable to that contract that has received so far only 10%. So this means a boost of around 20% of that amount that is very important, on EUR 2.4 billion. And this is the part that is for us and the part that is for Astaldi.

In terms of amounts, what we expect from the Verona Padua in terms of advance payment, it's higher than EUR 200 million, together Webuild and Astaldi.

So the total amount is more...

The potential amount is higher.

But we figure out only a part of these amounts we got for the availability of funds that are into the budget of the different authorities for this year. So we need to have a new budget then in order to increase the figures up to the maximum spend. But this year, the amounts that are available can make this cashing in of those amounts that Massimo was saying.