Wienerberger AG (WIE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. My name is Emma, your Chorus Call operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Wienerberger Conference Call on the update to the COVID-19 situation. You can find the latest presentation on the Wienerberger website in the COVID-19 section. [Operator Instructions] And I would now like to turn the conference over to Mrs. Anna Maria Grausgruber, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, a warm welcome from Vienna to our conference call with regards to our COVID-19 update. Today, our CEO, Heimo Scheuch, will give you a first high-level overview of our Q1 results before we dive into the COVID situation in our markets and discuss these changes versus our last call, which took place end of March. You will find the maps, again, in our presentation where we highlighted also the changes. And after the CEO statement, we are ready to take your questions. And now, I hand over to Heimo Scheuch.

Thank you, Anna, and a warm welcome also from my side. Thanks for being on the call. I would like to provide you with a short update on the current situation and then take, obviously, your questions. If we look into 2020, Wienerberger had a very satisfactory start into this year. The first 3 months, as I indicated already during our last call, were more or less in line with our expectations. So revenues are slightly up about 2% to last year with EUR 792 million. So a good start. We have seen this on the back of rather favorable weather conditions in Europe and not so good weather conditions in the North American markets. But again, I think our strategy on innovation and value-adding products and solutions is paying off that we had, obviously, also in this first quarter, a very good start. From a perspective of influence of the corona crisis, we have seen this coming in March. So obviously, our March volumes are slightly down to last year. And from a profitability perspective, you see that all our measures that we have set on cost cutting on Fast Forward, et cetera, pay off because we come in roughly at the same level as last year with about EUR 106 million EBITDA for the first 3 months of this year compared to EUR 110 million last year. So a good start into this year, which gives us confidence. And also a big thank you to all our colleagues in the markets that have worked under very tough circumstances in the last couple of weeks. Another positive part of this story line and when you look at the first 3 months is that from a pricing perspective, we -- our pricing strategy is fully implemented. We cover the current inflationary cost increases and as planned, continue with our pricing in the respective market. Again, when we look at all the measures that I have outlined and discussed with you during our last conference call, they are fully implemented. The cash preservation strategy is fully in place. We have cut back on CapEx on discretionary costs and have obviously put the operation in a position where we satisfy the demand levels in the respective markets. So again, from a management perspective, we have coped with all the necessary adjustments in our business. Let's go a little bit to the regional aspects. We have the numbers of countries when we look into the Western Hemisphere and the Nordic one in Europe that are affected by governmental-imposed closures and shutdowns. That's Italy, that's France, that's the U.K. and Ireland, partially a little bit in Switzerland. And the rest is obviously in a sort of operating mood where expectations are as we have foreseen them. I'm talking now about the Netherlands, which is running, from our perspective, as expected. So no major restrictions. The same goes for Germany, on a good level in the construction markets in Germany. The same goes for Denmark and the same goes for Belgium. When we look at the Nordic markets, especially important for us on the Piping division, that's the Finnish market, that's the Swedish market and the Norwegian market, they are also in line with our expectations and no restrictions there. So again, I think from this perspective, there's no major change from last time. We foresee that the potential sort of lift of this shutdowns, depending on countries, is to be envisioned beginning of next month. So into May, where the local governments or national governments will evaluate the situation, and depending on these outcomes and discussions within the governments, we should see some lift there in these markets. But for the moment, we are down with our operations there. We have cut as much as we can. And obviously, in all these countries, certain governmental-based, I wouldn't call them subsidies, but aid where processes are in place, where they basically finance part of the salaries or wages in these respective areas. When we move into Eastern Europe, here is a completely different picture because, obviously, when you look at the map that we've provided to you, I can address probably one situation, that's the Austrian one, where we obviously are also moving from a shutdown or a temporary shutdown of the economy in Austria in a more -- in a sort of step-by-step now lifting of restrictions. And also us, meaning Wienerberger, we are putting back the different locations on -- into production as we speak. And so the demand levels are coming back to, I would call it, normal levels in Austria as well. And the rest, when we start with Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, the Balkans, we are operating in rather normal situations for the moment. So construction sites are up and running. We deliver. So there are no major restrictions as far as the ongoing business is concerned in these areas. When I move then to the North American part of our business, we see actually 2 major aspects. So in the Southern parts, where we are -- where a major part of our business is, it's not affected yet, and we don't see any major impact. Our deliveries are at full speed for the moment when we look at the volumes that we deliver up into April. In the Nordic one, meaning Canada, it's completely shut down. It's a governmental-imposed shutdown. In some of the Northern states, like Pennsylvania, but also into Chicago, we have shutdown. So there, obviously, no activity or a very limited amount of activity takes place. Again, also in North American business, we have put in place the home office. We have cut back on wages. We have sort of reduced some capacities in certain areas. And if there is a governmental-forced closed -- shutdown like in Pennsylvania with one factory, we have sort of performed this as well. So again, in all of our operations, we are not anymore, I would say, in a crisis scenario. We are operating. We have adjusted our cost structure. And above all, we are managing very thoroughly our customer relationship here. And when it comes to digital solutions, we have put in place all the necessary requirements to be able to deliver products to construction sites and interact with our client base. You'll find a couple of sort of actions in the [ set ] that we've provided you for today's call presentation, how we interact with local communities. It's very important. Wienerberger has 200 -- over 200 sites, and therefore, it's very important to interact with the local communities. I can also report that from today's perspective, we have no case of corona in our company among the 17,000 people. We have -- actually, some people are in quarantine at home because family members are sick or so, but no sort of case reported within the workforce. So again, I think very important to say that we do all the necessary measures to keep the health. It's the most important aspect for people and [ too ] also necessary with respect to our distribution chain and the stakeholders that operate with us. Again, when we look at the Wienerberger's [ act of ] how we scope with the current situation, we have reduced CapEx to a minimum on the maintenance side. And we'll do so in all the countries where, obviously, there are shutdowns and where we have not yet a clear vision what the future will be in the sense of what market activity we will see in the next couple of months. We have also cut back on special CapEx. So we are not pursuing any major CapEx projects right now. We prepare those, and we obviously are active within our Fast Forward program, but are not executing them for the moment because there's also a problem of free movement of people. So our technicians are not able to move around as foreseen. So these things are, for the moment, postponed. On the M&A side, we have also stopped any activity for the moment and put this on hold, but then can sort of start any time when we see that there is a clearer vision where this whole thing will take us. On the personnel front, we have obviously cut here expenses as well. Also, you see the commitment of top management and executives to accept immediately a 20% wage cut. So a strong commitment here also throughout the company with respect to the contribution of the employees. We have prepared numerous scenarios and have addressed this when it comes to business and capacity management and working capital. So from our perspective, we have, I think, foreseen here also that Q2 will be affected most this year by this corona crisis, especially due to the shutdowns that I have described earlier. And we'll deal this -- with this in the way that I've described with cost cuttings, working capital management and also CapEx reductions. We have also, on the financial side, obviously, put an emphasis also during our last call that we have addressed the liquidity situation. And have, in the meantime, also repaid our EUR 300 million bond and successfully, and have still obviously quite a sizable amount of liquidity available for us to take us through the next couple of months if need will be. So again, I think here, a comfortable situation to be in, in sense of managing this situation. And as I said, operationally, we have put the necessary things in place. From today's perspective, I just want to say this before we go into the discussion mode. I think it's difficult to make predictions because from today's perspective, we don't know yet how this whole thing will play out. You have a lot of things moving at this moment. Some governments say there might be a second wave or third wave and restrictions might be imposed again, et cetera. Some are talking about partial sort of unlocking the economy. Others are then still pushing it back a little bit. So I would say, we will be in a much better position to review this current situation in about a month's time to get you a better feel where we see that the markets are going. But for this moment, I think, as you will appreciate, we are still in a sort of a situation where we can day -- can act day-by-day or week-by-week when we see into the local markets. So again, I think from our perspective, we are well prepared. We have done all the necessary things on the cost side, on the people side to protect our people and the safety and health of our people. We have ensured that we are fully in a situation where we can deliver our products and solutions in the local markets by all the digital means that we have put in place. We have managed our capacity in a way that we are ready to, like in Austria, for example, when the deliveries are coming up to a level between 80% to 95% in a week's time, we are available to deliver and satisfy our customers' demand. So a quick response to the local market. And we are continuing to focus on innovation in order to meet the needs of a more efficient work on construction sites where you would need to keep distances and need to obviously put and install the products very quickly and fast. So this is something where Wienerberger will put continuous effort on this subject. I'm happy to report also that in such difficult times, we have been able to put new products in the market in Germany and Austria. Very successful, by the way. It's a CO2-neutral brick, and especially because Wienerberger is not only thinking in crisis mode, but also in the long term to be a company that is 100% committed to sustainability. And as you remember, one of our key pillars for sustainability is to decarbonize our portfolio, our product portfolio. And here, again, a very good and strong signal that Wienerberger takes it serious. And this new brick that we have proposed for wall construction in Austria and in Germany is now launched and actively in the market. So for 1 and 2 family houses, the ideal way of building modern, sustainable and highly energy-efficient houses in the future. To summarize, I think we are in, as we'll talk about, a situation -- in a situation where we will cope with it. There, we have prepared ourselves with. We deal with this new reality. We are -- what we are doing today is preparing, obviously, in the markets that are coming up in a couple of weeks, hopefully, then back in full speed ourselves in order to satisfy demand levels. Continue to satisfy the demand levels in markets where we're running well. I think we have still good demand levels also when you look at infrastructure, renovation that are coming up. And continuously, I've been personally in contact with decision-makers on the European level, and looks promising that the European Commission will launch quite substantial and important plans for the relaunch of the construction sector in Europe in due time and course. A final note on -- also on our AGM, which will take place on the 5th of March (sic) [May]. It's completely in line with today's world. It's a digital one. And we will obviously hope that a lot of you, investors, participate in it actively, and that's a new way for us as well to deal with you and address your questions and comments. One very important note also to clarify there, we remain committed and are committed to our dividend policy. We propose to you to pay a dividend, a payout of EUR 0.60 on a share, and we have asked to pay it out in October. That's also due to the fact that there's a lot of discussion going on right now in Europe as far as payout of dividends is concerned, and we clearly said we are committed to do so. And if there's no law or regulation whatsoever that prohibits us from doing so, we'll pay it out, so that this is clear as well. And we obviously want to make sure that we fully commit and are aligned with all the regulations and laws applicable throughout Europe and especially in Austria. There's no law in place, by the way, for the moment, and there's nothing to be expected. But we want just to make sure that Wienerberger fully is aligned to all the laws that are in place in Europe. So this is, from my side, I think, a short update on the current situation. If there are, and as I would suppose, questions, we're happy to take them. Thank you very much.

[Operator Instructions] First question comes from the line of Yves Bromehead with Exane BNP Paribas.

Thank you very much for hosting this conference call and for the detailed presentation that you have given now for the second time on this COVID-19 update. I'll have 3, if I can. My first one is on what you're seeing in the ground in terms of construction side activity. I think your presentation provides a good overview of the overall impact on your operation, but I'd like to get a better understanding if the construction sites are actually operating and if they are able to keep with social distancing and health and safety measures? My second question is on the U.S.A. You mentioned that there are unemployment benefits. Could you just a bit elaborate on that given the amount of unemployment filings that we have seen in recent weeks? And my last question is on working capital. How should we think about especially the receivable line, given that you have a numerous amount of smaller contractors. Do you see any risk here in terms of missing payments or delays in payments? And how do you manage this?

Thank you very much for these important questions. I will take them one by one. If I may start with the construction sites. We had a -- I'll just take the Austrian example because I was involved directly in the discussion with government. I think we had numerous discussions. The construction sites were put to -- into a lockdown for nearly -- more than 10 days or a fortnight. Then, we convinced government that, together with construction industry, we will be able to keep distances and keep the safety and the health insured of all the workers. And since a week or so, all the construction sites are back and working. Infrastructure is easier. Renovation, in some extent, is a little complicated when it's in the indoor and in-house. But on the new build sites, obviously, the small ones are dealt with very easily because here, you are not so close to each other. And in urban areas, they have found obviously a higher degree of discipline with mask and other things. So I think it shows that if there's a good social dialogue between unions, between the state, between the execution, meaning police and others and industry, it works. So I can only say for a couple of countries like in Germany as well, it's working well. The Northern countries and Eastern Europe is very fine on this front. They're very disciplined. I think it's a good example to countries like France and also then to a later extent also probably, hopefully, for the U.K. and for Italy to show that you can go back to normality. And I would say that I don't see a major risk here, and people are now more getting confidence that this works. And obviously, as I said earlier, all of us need to learn and need to pay attention, and it's not one against the others, all of us together. And from the truck driver to the -- to our workers on the stock yard to the guys on the ground on the construction site, I think here, there's a lot of work that we have to do to educate everybody and that everybody understands what has to be done, but it is possible. And as I said, in these countries, 100% is nearly -- are now back and working on construction sites. When I take your other question on working capital, and this was related more to payment, what we see in all the countries that we operate in, we are very careful on what is concerned payment terms and also delays. For the moment, it's -- everything is according to plan, so there is no problem. In countries where we think there's little difficulties, we ask even prepayments and obviously monitor this very closely. So we haven't seen any big trouble for the moment yet in this field. And with respect to your thing on sort of contribution from state. On the European front, I think we have -- in all the countries where we operate in and where we are currently in a shutdown perspective or short-term, short labor working hours perspective, we have especially state-granted subsidies or contributions, if I may call them this way, from about 55% to up until 80% of the salaries are taken care of by state institutions. And this is what we find in Europe. In Canada, it's a little similar. And in the U.S., obviously, it's a different ballgame altogether.

Actually, sorry, on the U.S., that was actually quite specific to the U.S., my question. Given that in your presentation, you said that there is some unemployment benefits, can you maybe just describe what they are in terms of maybe what is the percentage?

Yes. This is a state-by-state thing. It's not an overall one. So we -- and obviously, we are not in this mode. It's only Pennsylvania for the moment. So it's sort of a minor aspect for us. But again, here, from our perspective, it will be also a little bit less than in Europe, but in also significant range if we get state grants there.

[Operator Instructions] Next question comes from the line of Matthias Pfeifenberger with Deutsche Bank.

Dr. Scheuch, a couple of questions from my side. I'll ask them one by one. Coming back to the underlying activity now, just going back to 85% or 90%, how much of that is actually, I don't know, the building merchants refilling the stocks or just brick supply to existing construction sites being continued after 2 weeks break? So what I'm getting at is, will there be probably a shortfall later on with a certain lag given that unemployment goes to 10% even in Austria?

No, Matthias, what we've delivered now goes directly to -- through directly to construction sites because they are building right now. So there's no stock in the chain. They have actually -- the distributors have filled a little bit of stock before the lockdown, especially on the country side, the smaller projects that were going on. But now they are empty, so it goes directly through. I think it goes -- and I just want to take your question to address something else. I think when we look throughout Europe and the U.S., and this is not only for us, but any company active in the construction material arena, we are working off projects that are currently ongoing, where we have permits and where permits have been issued. I think the big issue will be, depending on the country, how quick administration resumes its work. Because here, obviously, we have countries that are also, when you talk about in administration at the lockdown, because no sort of activity takes place with respective issuing of permits and so, so I think this is going to be an issue that we have to address very quickly in the sense that there's no shortfall of activity in the -- in about 4 to 6 or even more months because this is, I think, critical also for the industry. That's what I addressed with the commissioner in the conference call last week and this week, and I think they are working on it. And member states, individual member states of the union and also in the U.S., know this as well and need to address this also quickly.

So let's say, every other country follows the track of Austria, some of these earlier countries, and there's no second wave, would you expect for activity to go back to 85%, 90% and for there to be no significant need for capacity reductions?

Well, it depends a little bit, as I said, on the different countries and also on the supply of labor because I think in certain countries, you have -- you need, especially in the Western European economies, labor from other countries to come in on the construction site that have currently left to their home countries. So this will affect, obviously, the capacity of building in certain areas of Europe and also in U.S., less in the U.S. than in Europe. And therefore, I would say, yes, your assumption is right that we quite quickly can resume construction sites and come back to about 80%, 85% delivery from our perspective. So that means in certain areas of Europe, not too much really, a reduction of capacity. But Matthias, also, here, we have shown in the past, we are quite flexible and quick to address either by turning it up or turning it slightly down, here, the capacity.

Yes. My 2 other questions are very simple. How do you feel about the rest of the hybrid bond in terms of the financing liquidity situation next year? And also on the dividends, I mean you're basically holding the line firm in terms of payments. You're also the Head of the Austrian Stock -- the Supervisory Board of the Austrian Stock Exchange, and there's a good lively discussion. I would, by the way, have the view that companies should decide on their own depending on the liquidity and leverage situation. But is this postponement a bit of a backdoor in terms of if there is a law banning companies that receive state aid to pay dividends like, I don't know, contemplated at least by the Vice Chancellor? And that's the remaining 2 questions.

Well, to your last questions. First of all, I'm very pragmatic to this situation, and I just don't want to be in a legally difficult situation. So from our perspective, we made it very clear with all of you, we are committed to pay out the dividend. That's our policy, that we have a long-term view and not the short term, first of all. Secondly, Wienerberger has done well and has a strong balance sheet and is convinced that we can decide on ourselves, as you correctly put it, what we propose to our shareholders. But we don't want to be in a legal fight with anybody. So from our perspective, we thought it's better to have this situation cleared through the summer and then pay it out, so that there's no legal problems, if I may say so. So it's a clear signal from Wienerberger's side to the -- to you all, commitment to a dividend policy. And your other question was relating to the hybrid.

To the hybrid or to potentially also other capital markets debt instruments that you would be considering at the moment.

Let me put it this way, your question was phrased in a way what my feeling is. And sorry to say, I have no feelings on it. And so I'm saying the hybrid, as I always said, is a financial instrument that we have, and we have it on our balance sheet. We will deal with this at the stage when we have to deal with it. I don't need to make any [ statement ] right now. We'll deal with it in the later part of this year and give a clear sort of signal there as far as the hybrid is concerned. As I said, Wienerberger has always generated cash and will generate cash, and we will allocate the cash accordingly to this. And I think also when it comes to financial instruments, we will clearly evaluate the situation step by step. Obviously, today is a completely different scenario and you will appreciate it than 2 months ago. Probably, in 2, 3 months, we will talk differently again. So I think from our perspective, we don't need to worry right now about anything, and we should just sort of focus, and that's what we are doing. Our management, my colleagues, my new colleague, Carlo, as the CFO, focusing on the business and they're ensuring the liquidity. And then moving on, obviously, as we speak through the year and then make a clear decision on the different potential financial instruments that we have available.

Next question comes from the line of Ami Galla with Citi.

Just 2 questions from me. Firstly, on the U.K., there was some news of a smaller brick supplier restarting operations. Are you also in discussions to restart operation? Or is there a clear guideline that is needed from the government for you to resume operations in the U.K.? My second question really is on plastic pipes. If you could give us some color on what is the sort of input cost trend that you're seeing in the market currently?

On the second one, first. There's no major input change right now. I mean, obviously, there will be when you take the oil price coming down. But obviously, on the supply chain, there has been some movement, but not one that I can really report on at this very moment. So I will give you, on the supply chain, an update in -- during the next call as we have more visibility, especially as our suppliers are concerned. So this is to address your question on plastic pipes and the input costs. Not -- no major change there for the moment. And on the U.K. front, here, obviously, we have enough supply to -- for the demand that is out there for smaller projects and for renovation projects, and we can also deal with this through our supply chain coming from Belgium and the Netherlands. So for the moment, we are not contemplating any start-up in the near future. But if, obviously, we have better indications from the government and from the market that construction sites will resume and building resumes, then we will be able to start very quickly.

Next question comes from the line of Xintong Ouyang with One Field Investment Research (sic) [ On Field Investment Research ].

I have 2 follow-ups and then a question on the new brick product. So the first one is, I'm wondering, can you provide a little bit of an underlying market situation on the Piping segment? Because I understand that you focus on different regions and also different underlying markets than the brick. And then the second thing is, you've been mentioning the recovery of the underlying markets, and you're saying that they can go back to normal pretty fast. But I'm just wondering, given the, for example, logistics or labor, all these factors in total, normally, how long would you expect, for example, France or Italy or Spain to go back to normal activity levels? Is it 1 month, 2 months or less than that? And then the third question is on the carbon-neutral bricks, it's just that you launched it during the crisis and it's quite successful in Germany and in Austria. But I'm just wondering how -- when you say it's successful, is it like its pricing is very competitive or the market has a very good -- like the market accepted automatically? Or I'm just wondering how did you find this successful?

Thank you. How do I find this -- it successful? I mean, obviously, as we launched this product, and this has happened in the last 2 weeks, obviously, this is nothing where I can say today, we have increases in volumes that are, in absolute terms, dramatic. But obviously, we have a great interest in the market, and this is fully in line with sustainable construction, and that's what I'm saying, the acceptance is there. And pricing is not competitive in such a product because, obviously, it has so strong values in the sense of added value to the customer that it is unique. And as we are the first ones to have a product like this in the market, obviously, the acceptance is good. So I just wanted to make sure that you understand that we are innovating our portfolio, that we are moving also in the sustainable direction. And obviously, I will certainly report back in a couple of months on the sales and how it works and give you an update there. But the interest so far and how clients react to it is very positive. If I may take your second question was...

Markets can go back.

How quickly they can go back? Yes. I think if you see, Austria has come back very quickly. I think Italy, when we look at Italy, before we shut down the plants or had to shut them down in the mid of March, we had stronger activity in Italy than last year, so better sales. I would assume that also here, the markets, when they come back, would come back very quickly because there's no stock in the chain and there's no sort of available products in the marketplace. So immediately, our products will go directly to construction sites. And I would say also here, we will see rather quick and fast-moving markets. And also the same will go for France. And the U.K., it depends what the clear message from the U.K. government will be. But in a general sense, I would say, within a month or so, we should be back to about 80% in such markets if the underlying demand is normal, yes? So there was one more question on...

Yes, I also didn't get it. Xintong, can you repeat it?

The first question, Anna and myself didn't get, so I'm sorry.

No, sorry. I was asking about the underlying market of Piping. So...

In Piping, yes.

I understand that...

Yes, sure. In Piping, I think we monitor basically 2 major market segments. You have the infrastructure business, which has been done very well throughout Europe. I think good demand levels in Eastern, Northern and Western Europe, especially when you talk about how Eastern Europe has been good, the demand level there. And in Western Europe, I think also the Netherlands has been rather good [ as the ] Nordic countries. And the only country which was completely down, obviously, is France and where we have a minor exposure. So not really to worry about. And then we have the in-house segment that all the pipes that you use within the house and here, obviously, the markets that have been affected through the shutdowns of some importance to us where we operate in. But where we see obviously a little bit more -- less activity in certain areas, that's where we have to focus. But as I said, the most business in the infrastructure is completely in line with expectations. And also the performance in the first quarter has been a very good and strong one.

You mean Piping segment?

Yes, correct.

Next question comes from the line of Tobias Woerner with MainFirst.

Heimo, just 2 questions, if I may, from me, please. Number one, your liquidity you're negotiating at the moment, the credit lines. Last -- in the last call, you said that should double the existing liquidity. Now obviously, since then, there was a change. But is that still what you're expecting? And by when do you think those negotiations could come through? That's the first question. The second question, some of the other companies give us how their revenues developed in the first 2 months and then say what happens in the third month. I don't know whether you can disclose that to us from an information flow point of view or not, but it would be helpful and also to see how the EBITDA would have developed? I understand the first 2 months would have been basically winter impacted, so it's mainly March. But any sense or color would be helpful.

No, I understand, Tobias. I fully understand your third question. So I think the sort of saying month-by-month deliveries, you have to look at deliveries and invoice is obviously a different story. So again, if I take the 3 months together, normal business. And in some areas in Europe, obviously, you have an impact in regional businesses up to about 20%. But that's regional, yes, not overall regional, yes? And so I think, overall, as I said earlier, very good performance in the first 3 months altogether, yes? And we will see a clearer picture because of the sort of [ deep holes ] to shutdowns in April, May and June because, obviously, this comes with the delay in our business. So we are coming a little later than other businesses. So this to your first -- to your second question. And to your first one was with respect to liquidity. I think when -- in the meantime, obviously, what has changed is also we have repaid our bond, the EUR 300 million. So this has been also executed. And again, when we talk about the liquidity that we have available, it's in the range of what I've told you last time. So again, and I think when we talk about liquidity as such, we are comfortable with it, and we have obviously discussions and continue to have discussions with financial institutions. And if need should be and if need would be there, I think we can, obviously, with -- now with our situation, the strong balance sheet that we have can get access to liquidity if we want.

But just to follow up on that, you implied last time that you could double that liquidity, unless I heard that wrong. Is that still as you see it?

What I said, I said last time, if I recall correctly, a little bit above EUR 600 million, that's what I said, and we have not all assured it yet, but we're on good way.

[Operator Instructions] Excuse me, Mrs. Grausgruber, there no further questions at this time.

Thank you, operator. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. Let me highlight some new upcoming events in the next weeks, where we will give you some further updates. The next one is on May 5 during our AGM. You can follow it via live stream on our home page. And then on May 14, we will come back with more details during our Q1 earnings call. For today, thank you very much for dialing in, and wish you a good afternoon, and goodbye.

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference has now concluded, and you may disconnect your telephone. Thank you for joining, and have a pleasant day. Goodbye.