Xelpmoc Design and Tech Limited (XELPMOC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Xelpmoc Design and Tech Limited Q1 FY '21 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Diwakar Pingle from Christensen IR. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Rio. Good evening, everyone, and thanks for joining the Q1 FY '21 earnings call for Xelpmoc Design and Tech. Great pleasure to have your call -- listen to this call today. The results and investor presentation have been mailed to you and is also present in the BSE website as well as our website. In case anyone has not received the release, please do write to us, and we'll be happy to send the press release and presentation to you. To take us through the results and to answer your questions, we have the management of Xelpmoc represented by Sandipan Chattopadhyay, the MD and CEO; and Srinivas Koora, the CFO of Xelpmoc. Srini will start the call with a brief overview of quarter gone past, post which Sandipan will just give a very, very brief highlights of what's happening and after that we'll throw the floor open to Q&A. The standard safe harbor clause applies. And with that said, I now hand over the call to Srini. Srini?

Yes. Thank you, Diwakar. Good evening, everyone. Welcome to Xelpmoc's earnings call for the first quarter of fiscal 2021. Hope you and your family members are safe and in sound health. I'm pleased to inform you that we continued on the momentum we built in Q4 of last fiscal with another steady performance this quarter. Our total operating revenue for the quarter was INR 35.1 million as compared to INR 32.6 million in Q4 FY '20, reflecting an increase of 7.5% on quarter-on-quarter basis. On year-on-year basis, we grew by 190% from INR 12.1 million over the corresponding period of last year. EBITDA for the quarter grew by 158.3% on quarter-on-quarter basis to INR 14.1 million as compared to INR 5.4 million in Q4 FY '20 and a negative INR 15.6 million in Q1 of FY '20. EBITDA margins also grew from 16.7% in Q4 FY '20 to 40.1% in Q1 FY '21, primarily aided by some cost optimization measures and benefits arising out of the current pandemic. Net profit for the quarter was INR 16.7 million as compared to INR 4.7 million in Q4 FY '20, reflecting almost 4x increase while it was a net loss of INR 13.9 million in Q1 FY '20. So as we [indiscernible] from our domestic clients. Our total team size was 99 inclusive of employees, interns and consultants. We have served 36 clients till date, and our improved performance was on the basis of continuing high level of engagement with the said clients. The fair value of investments in our portfolio company stood at approximately INR 350 million as on June 30, 2020 as compared to INR 274 million as on June 30, 2019. Even in the current pandemic, majority of our [Technical Difficulty] well. For example, Fortigo Networks, which is a digital logistics platform, never lost even a single day in April and May. Operations continued throughout lockdown period and onwards, which proves that the digital logistics is a way forward. Currently, Fortigo exploring options to enter into core sector logistics. Very recently, they got required approvals and licenses to operate under core sector logistics. When we talk about core sector logistics, core sector logistics, minerals, natural resources and mines. Similarly, in case, if you look at the other portfolio company, which is Mihup. Mihup looks extremely promising, which is into automated voice interface and voice analytics platform. They were able to onboard some good market customers to name a few common for automobile sector, Avaya, Cisco. Another portfolio company, Woovly, which is a social commerce platform, has shown some real good performance. User acquisition has grown over 6x compared to previous year. As on June 30, 2020, total users were 19.7 lakhs, whereas previous year during the same time, they had 3.07 lakhs users. Close to 46% are mostly active users. Most of our portfolio companies are at the early stage, and they are very closely held companies. Hence, we are disclosing to whatever extent we are able to disclose. In the last week, Board has approved investment into Learning Hats Private Limited, a Singapore-based private limited company, to subscribe for 11% of equity. Learning Hats is into education sector, planning to provide all the education-related products worldwide. Now let me come to the outlook for the remaining fiscal year of 2021. We would continue to focus our energies on promising sectors and portfolios like EduTech Ventures, Health Care, Fortigo, Mihup, Slate, and we would like to invest our best efforts in these sectors and in this portfolio companies. We have seen some good growth opportunities in the education sector, given the recent dramatic shift from the physical to digital by the education service providers and also expected overall in the sector on account of new education policy announced by the Government of India. As witnessed in the past couple of quarters, we are set to reap the benefits of operating leverage and expect to close the EBITDA for the fiscal year on a positive note. We remain confident, but cautious, about our business going forward since acquiring new clients has been a challenge given the pandemic crisis. With this, now I request moderator to open the floor for Q&A.

[Operator Instructions]

Moderator, 1 second. Sandipan, why didn't you brief?

I think Srini, you've covered most of it. I have very little to add. Is just that the sectors we had focused as core. I have repeated -- said this at the cost of repetition, I'll say that the sectors we are focused on in health, education, agriculture and livelihood. I think it has been catalyzed in its importance and the format which we had thought would be the overall stable format. So not only is this situation that is arising out of COVID changing things, I think some of the changes are irreversible and they are here to stay. So it has sort of short circuited some of our growth plans in those sectors in terms of opportunity, significantly. I think that's the point we have to keep in mind when we talk about this point.

Rio, now you can open it for Q&A, please?

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of [ Keval Ashar ], individual investor.

Congratulations for the great set of results, sir. I have some few questions. So first is like what led to these margins? And are these margins sustainable over the longer term?

Thank you very much. As I said, like margins were 40.1% in Q1 -- Q1 of FY '21 primarily aided by some cost optimization measures and benefits arising of current pandemic. So in case if you look at it last quarter, all the employees were operating from their residences and the offices were closed, and there were no travel expenses, conveyance, electricity, et cetera. So those are added to margins, but given that 40% margins are not sustainable. So you can fairly assume that the margin should be somewhere in the range of about 20% to 25%.

Great, sir. Second was as the company had an ambition of achieving breakeven for Q4 FY '20, and we successfully did achieve, we would like to know what is your 5-year vision in terms of top line and bottom line, if you could share with us?

See, basically, as you know, I can't give any forward numbers, especially in the 5 years, given the restrictions that we have. Those would be a forward-looking statement or forward-looking numbers. But what we can do is we can give a vision like what we are looking at. And we said that we would be EBITDA positive for Q4, we did that. And this year, we -- throughout all the quarters, we would be positive in terms of EBITDA, and we are building on this growth, whatever we had achieved last year and this quarter.

Sure, sir. And the last question is, do we have any plans to take our successful investment, like Fortigo to public?

Yes, surely, at some point of time, the Fortigo management and the Fortigo...

One thing I must add is that this is not a call that Xelpmoc can take. You must understand that all our investor companies have their own independent structures and all. Going public is something that we encourage all our start-ups, and we have chosen sectors and entrepreneurs with the mindset of going public, but it is not something that Xelpmoc can enforce or push beyond a certain point. It is something we surely, surely would encourage all of our start-ups.

And most importantly, these decisions are taken by the respective portfolio Board and the shareholders.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Harish Kumar Gupta ], also an individual investor. Next question is from [ Kunal Bihani ], who's an individual Investor.

Am I audible?

Yes, you are. Yes.

Yes. First of all, congratulations on the great results. I just have a couple of follow-up questions. Given that we talked about our focus on the education sector, so basis -- the win of the school chain, how has it translated in us reaching out to more similar type of clients? That's point one. And second, in terms of the products, whether it's DocuX or something else, are we seeing an increased traction? I mean, is there anything specific we need to add on the product front?

Both are very good questions, and I will take them one by one, first the edu sector. These are products which take a long time to mature. And yes, there has been expression of interest from other concerned parties. But we are, right now, doing trials in some schools. We are going on with those parts and post that we will first deploy into our captive audience for the first 40 schools. And then we would probably look at a much better market engagement. And also give time for everyone to set their strategies in place. Because right now, it's a bit of a fuzzy logic happening everywhere. We have one person who's very concerned -- I mean very constant about their endeavor when you're [indiscernible]. As per the demands of the other products that we have, there has been some traction, and I'm happy to note that we have POCs ongoing with some major marquee brands. But as I said in my previous things, we are on track and actually, probably a little ahead of schedule, but I would still hold on to the sanctified time of first quarter of 2021, where we should see product tractions and sales happening in a meaningful way.

Got it. Yes, sir. So just one last question on that. We said that we are getting some opportunities on the U.S. front. But given that there are travel restrictions, we will not be able to capitalize on them as of now. So is there any progress or any update on that front in terms of clients from the U.S., whether it's respect to a product or something else?

Yes. I mean, overseas, we have opened up certain frontiers. For the moment, some of the parts are not exactly moving ahead, to be very frank. They're in a paused state. But some projects and some ventures that we had already engaged with, the engagement is ongoing. And in some cases, there has been increasing in some new win, new work has come in on to that part. So it is not the growth trajectory we hope to hit -- been able to hit. But the interest and inquiries are increasing. But to define them, I think we'll need some stabilization to work before we can look at that.

Okay. Once again, congratulations.

Thank you, Kunal.

Thanks, Kunal.

The next question is from [ Rajendra Sethi ], who's an individual investor.

Sir, my question is for Sandipan, sir. Sir, why University of Notre Dame is reducing its holding on 3 August 2020? And my next question is, sir, in your previous acquisition declaration, sir, you said that we are taking 75% shareholding in [ extrapolate ] adviser, that is Data Sutram, which is not shown in investment till now, is there anything -- reason for that?

So we had -- at point of time, we had looked at Data Sutram, and we were conjecturing on it. But then with the Board and our resolving, we have decided not to go ahead with that investment. So if you see it, we have never ever included that in our investments. That was a proposal that didn't go through. And we decided to stay away from it. Yes, one second...

And we have...

Yes, sorry. Go ahead, Srini.

Yes. And we have given that intimation to the exchanges as well, the movement it has been decided not to go ahead. We have already given the intimation that we are not going ahead with the Data Sutram. And...

But sir, Data Sutram is your major portfolio and you're starting this, why we have not taken a stake in that even that they are very much helpful in our portfolio?

It was never a major portfolio. What makes you say so, if I may ask you?

Sir, according to that, your declaration, that is around 75% shareholding, that means that company is really significant for you.

75% of 0 is still 0, right? So I don't think we should go by percentage by the size firstly. And that doesn't decide them major or minor. It was somewhere where we thought that it has to be a majority control of ours. And only when it acted in our interest and with our parts, we wanted to go ahead with it. If it was not executing to our perceived perception of what it should be, we decided to stay away for it because it is an important sector, and we didn't want to block it out with some buildup, which is not conducive to our overall goals. So the 75% or 80% or 15% doesn't matter, the multiplication of it with the actual value is what makes major or minor.

Okay. Sir, and about the University of Notre Dame?

No. See the thing is markets and all, we never control. And we don't want to control or interfere, nor do we influence investment and all those things. If they have felt that it was important to exit, they've exited. It could be because of global changes. They are international funds, they have outlooks in India, on China and all those things. If they have decided that they have done, but as far as I know, it is something of a value correction or a kind of a thing on that part or maybe they intervene to make sure that the markets are in a particular healthy state. I don't know what their logic is, nor do I want to interfere. So we will not comment anyone being on that part.

Yes. But these are the shareholders. They can buy anytime they want. They can sell anytime. The company, all the promoters, nobody interferes in those decisions. So frankly speaking, we exactly don't know why they buy and why they sell. And the company can't comment on that.

Nor do we want to. We don't want to make it sure because we believe that the substantial or the fundamental of the company is strong. And if some people are looking at certain aspects of rolling over or looking at some parts, absolutely, their strategy. We should not interfere in that part.

Okay, sir. Sir, there are very good investments of your in your portfolio. But sir, I just want to know what are the -- some mistakes that you think you have made? And you know it is very essential to keep a note of that in your journey of 3.5 years.

So I think the EduTech Venture and Mihup are my personal favorites. And there are certain ideas we have, which we hope to unfold in the next oncoming days, which should be our big stakes and stuff like that. Hopefully, you will see it fruitioning to some extent in some small start-ups in the very soon. As of now, if you look at it, EduTech and Mihup, Fortigo of course, has already been big. So I don't want to restate it. They have been one of our main focus areas because they solve fundamental problems. They are very core problems. They are large mass appeals. Mihup, I don't know how people interpret it, but actually, it's a very nice input/output mechanism for a country which is vastly illiterate. And that makes it hugely impactful for any sector, and it's pretty sector agnostic. The current indications of usability is only the tip of the iceberg. We are still to explore a lot, and it has multifaceted use. So I'm very, very excited about Mihup. And of course, education is something which is all encompassing. It addresses 16% of the population of any country at any point of time, probably more, if people become more education-oriented society. If you want to become self-sufficient, people have to keep on upgrading their knowledge. So eduction is a sector, which is almost all-weather and all-season and pretty unimpacted. So we surely, surely look very strongly at -- and as a sector, Mihup is a specific thing. Education may itself have several bouquet of products.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Harish Kumar Gupta ], who's an individual investor.

Hello sir, my query is like what is your like expertise of your employees, like they are IT engineers or what kind -- in fact, I don't understand the business. So that's why I'm asking this question.

We have still not found an exact match with the current academic curriculums that are followed by several institutes and the kind of people who work for us. We look at people's raw intelligence, IQ. We have our own evaluation standards. And we encourage a very healthy culture of internship, where I mean, we get to understand them for a longer period of time. And as we see promise, we look at it. I can tell you the fundamental qualities we look at. We look at lack of -- sorry, not lack of -- I mean, complete mastery over logic, understanding of mathematics and statistics is surely one of the positives we look for customers -- for our candidates. But most importantly, we look at people who can challenge and try to prove everything from the first principle and don't take things for granted or just are academic pursuits. So people who are non-theory oriented in the sense that they are very theoretically strong, those are the guys that we look for. And then, of course, they go through a training program and on. Remember that we are not looking for fast coders who code out into 10 to 5 hours, how many lines of code they can write. That is not the kind of people we're looking at. We're looking at solution engineers and people who think through a problem and solve it from ground up. So they can't come from any stream. We currently have people coming from economies -- areas of people like economics, some people come from physics, some come from chemistry, mathematics, of course, engineering. We even have some people who have come from core sciences or what we call the soft sciences and are helping with our education project. And we need people from psychology, we need people from sociology to do it. So we don't look at the part. We look at the need of the solution and see who fix it best, and then we recruit. Our interviews are a bit lengthy, but our internship program has been working very, very well for us.

Okay. So as per your explanation at -- like it seems to me that probably the lowest salary you may be offering maybe in the range of INR 4 lakhs, INR 5 lakhs kind of salary, right or...

No, we -- that's not true. Everyone starts off with the basic salary of maybe in that range, maybe a bit lower than that. But depending on the output they do and the kind of contributions and value they do, we don't want to lose a good guy. So salaries are not range bound, like a government employment or grade-based things, they're performance-oriented and value-oriented. So salaries can be completely dispersed after the 6 months. And the same batch of students may get completely these various salaries depending on the contribution and expertise they are able to show.

Okay. So basically, I was trying to understand your employees' cost. Employee cost is coming only INR 1 crore for a quarter. And I was going through your presentation and it somewhere mentioned that you are having around 100 employees, right?

Yes. That's true, 99.

99 team member right now, you are having.

Yes.

So on the employees, you need to spend only INR 1 crore for a quarter for all the employees?

The number is wrong slightly. Srini can you just justify on that?

No, no. Basically, the 99 employees were as on 30th of June. And apart from that, that also includes interns and consultants. And consultants expenses are included in other expenses, and employee cost is coming under employee cost.

The next question is from [ Yugal Dewan ], who's an individual investor.

Congratulations on your good performance. I would like to ask, sir, do you have any active management control in any of these start-ups? Or like just giving support, sitting like silent partners?

We're not a silent partner in any of our start-ups, this much I can tell you. And if you mean active management as in executive management, we do have it in a few of the bigger ones, Mihup, Fortigo, and all, we do participate. In many places, we are more observers. But on a work basis, any of the active start-ups that we are working on, the interaction can be on a daily basis or a weekly basis. But at least, it's at a quarterly, in most cases, fortnight -- sorry fortnightly. And in some rare cases, where it's a mature, it's on a monthly basis. But we are pretty involved onto that part and hands-off is not something that anyone expects of us, the entire value that we were mainly taken for is the knowledge, strategy and other things we do. So entrepreneurs do reach out, and we are very actively involved in the management and the running of the company, though not the execution part of it all the time. But at the strategic level, yes, completely, completely, intertwined, we may say with the start-ups.

The next question is from the line of [ Kunal Bihani ], who's an individual Investor.

Can you hear me?

Yes, sir, please go ahead.

Sure. Okay. And these are just a couple of follow-up questions. I am seeing the presentation. The fair value of Ideal Insurance Brokers and Inqube Innoventures have been reduced by around 30% to 40% from a year-on-year basis. So is there any significant impact? Or what made us reduce the fair value? That is point one. And second, from the stated intentions, we are looking at education and start-ups. But is there anything where we are working with corporates, considering the margins which we might have with corporates would be slightly higher and a better retention? So I mean, are we doing anything on the corporate front or our bandwidth is right now limited to the education deployment and the start-ups where we have a partnership?

So basically...

Srini, can answer the first question. I'll answer the second question first, if I can. See, the thing is, of course, there are start-ups we focus and all. So our products and POCs that I talked about is mostly for the corporate sector. And just to be clear, margins are not something we look at in our startup engagement because there we mostly do on a cost-plus stake model. The margins primarily come from our entire venture in the corporate world and in our deployment with some of the advanced startups whom we treat as corporates only. And how we categorize start-ups and all. For the ventures that we are involved in or we are equity holders in, margins are not there, to be very frank. It is something that we do at a cost level. And mostly, we are getting the value through the equity hold in that start-up. For the other parts, Srini can respond better.

Yes. So basically, now coming to the portfolio investments. Firstly -- first of all, let me tell you that fair value of all the investments is updated as on 31st March and as of 30th September. For the rest of the quarters, we are just retaining as it is, unless and until there is any major change in any of the portfolio companies. Now coming to Ideal Insurance and the other one is Inqube. So on the Inqube and all we were seeing very low visibility, and that's one of the reason why it has come down. And as far as Ideal Insurance is concerned, they are doing right now good, but as of 31st March, when we were looking at it. Okay, we thought that it would be better in case if we can reduce the -- looking at the overall scenario, overall growth rate based on the discounted cash flow, we allow that as per the valuation.

Okay. So have we reduced our engagement with them? I mean, which has led to the decrease? Or is there...

Basically, we have a very, very limited engagement with them. This overall holding percentage is less than 1 percentage and that too, initially, for the first 2 years, we help them in building some sort of a technology. Post that, like they have built their own in-house tracking. So right now, we are only a financial investor with a less than 1% stake in Ideal Insurance.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Siddhant Dand from Goodwill.

My question is regarding investment. How liquid would they be in terms of -- if you want cash -- would you get any form of liquidity from them? Or are they easy to sell or would you sell them at a mature stage?

See, first and foremost, important thing, all this investment, what we are holding in this portfolio companies, they are all are unlisted. And they are at a very, very early stage. Few companies are right now at a seed stage of funding, pre series A, series A level of funding. So -- and these portfolio companies are looking at a deeper engagement and longer-term engagement with Xelpmoc. So unless and until we reach to some stage series B level and all whenever there -- whenever the opportunity comes, we will take it up with the Board, and the Board will take a decision whether we want to exit fully, partially on a pro rata basis. So it's an early stage to take a call how to -- when to invest, whether it's a liquid or illiquid. But as and when opportunity comes, the portfolio companies do reach out in case if you are interested in diluting, et cetera, on a pro rata basis, et cetera. But as of now, we have not done anything. There were a couple of companies were not doing well, we sold it at the cost price to the promoter about 2 years back.

The next question is from the line of Ayush Gupta from SA Investment.

Am I audible?

Yes. You are audible, sir.

I just want to ask that since we have no place or avenues to deploy cash, so what are we going to do with it?

We don't have any avenues to deploy cash. We are very frugal about it, but the product developments and all on certain parts that we are developing will start deploying some of the cash and everything. I mean, there's a lot of cash sitting, we wanted to consolidate, see which is working, which is not working and we're frugal about it. But at the opportune moment, for the right opportunities, we do plan to deploy some of these things. Mostly it will come in terms of development for R&D, new products. And maybe there are some businesses we may want to hold with a lot larger holding of more than 50% or 60% or something of that sort. Till now, we have not been able to execute those sort of things properly. So we have not gone ahead and invested such large things. But as we mature and as we find out sectors where we feel our confidence is higher, we will be deploying some of it for sure. The rest, Srini can address.

Well, Sandi, you had covered it well.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Joseph ], who's an individual investor.

Congrats on a fantastic performance. My questions are more connected to the situation currently. The COVID situation is likely to prolong for the rest of the year and maybe more. Is it affecting working, collaboration, what are you doing to mitigate it? And marketing pipeline? Also, see you may or may not get to travel as frequently as you want. So what are we doing to kind of take care of that? Second part of the question is regarding Learning Hats investment. Can you throw some light on it? What is the company about? And tell us a little bit more about that?

Sure. Srini, I'll take this question?

Yes, please go ahead.

Yes. Of course, it's -- the situation is throwing challenges, but we are finding some good hacks to it, if I can call in my language, which is we are innovating constantly and finding out what we can do best with it. Things which are not in your control, you still do have the control of leveraging most what you can. Coming to your specific questions, marketing funnel of course, is affected adversely. It's not going to -- we have expected to hit the accelerator sometime this time around and have some propagations in the overseas markets mainly. That is severely affected. But revenue streams and all, like I had told you in the previous call, we had thankfully booked a little bit ahead for about 5, 6 months because we thought we'll accelerate, and hence, this will be the stable foundation. So we are looking at executing those much faster, better. And in some of these ventures, we also have a revenue inflow coming in if they get used. We have seen some opportunity if we execute it faster and they go-to-market faster, there is a chance some revenue accrual coming in and part of it coming through our coffers. So we are working on those parts. On the personal -- on the work front of it, it has affected. Initially, we found it very difficult to collaborate, especially because we are not an execution company only. We are a credit company where we need to debate, we need to ideate together. We did find it difficult in the initial days. But then we kept on innovating on our own working methods also. Today, we do a lot of calls. We have interesting ways of doing video conferencing. We are using our handwriting once more to focus the camera on a paper and writing on the paper and others are seeing it. So we have found ways. And for the last 2, 3 months, we have taken it for granted that possibly we may need to work in this more for the next at least 4, 5 months. And we are -- I mean, hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst in terms of work mode and all. And that's what till now, we have been able to get higher productivity out of these things. 2 advantages have been that somehow, the -- once the decision is taken, the productivity is higher per person. And when it comes to creative things and individual thinking part, people are probably getting less distracted because it's not just your work, but also you having to go to a movie or going on a vacation. Those things not being there, people are in the creative part, contributing more than what usually has been the average for sometime. Not that it's a good thing, maybe the quality of creativity will also go down. But for the moment, we are leveraging it. It's not something we hope that exists for more than 4, 5 months. But at the moment, we have been able to capitalize and leverage whatever is that has been thrown to us as a problem.

Great. Can you also tell us a little bit about Learning Hats?

Exactly. Sorry, I'll take that also. So Learning Hats is basically a setup or a corporate structure that we have done for keeping all the education tools and tackles technology pieces as a part. Because the markets we are trying to attempt as, apart from India, we are also trying to go to Southeast Asia and Africa. And hence having it there makes sense. We are sort of keeping 3, 4 main systems as our focus. Of course, one is kind of like a school management system. Second is a kind of content development system, in which we have -- historically have huge experience. If you look at Woovly, if you look at the past experience, we have something. So education content development tools and tackles is something there. And of course, some advanced things with interactive content, which is not just video-based, but video plus something else, et cetera, et cetera. So we're exploring those things. All those things will be done out of that particular company.

The next question is from Kapil Makkar from K&K Associates.

I have actually 3 questions. The first is, if you would have noticed, 80% to 90% questions are pointed towards your investment in start-ups or in unlisted companies, rather than your products. Though you guys are expert and in much better position to judge. Just a few thought about developing more products, which really could generate income as well as interest of investors? And the second is, can you share your employee and intern...

Some disturbance coming in, I couldn't hear your question fully. Can you please repeat it? Sandipan here.

Yes. Yes. Am I audible clearly now?

Yes. Yes, please.

If you would have noticed, 80% to 90% questions are pointed towards your investments in startups or unlisted companies rather than your products. Though, you guys are expert and in a much better position to judge, just a few thought about developing more diverse products, which really could generate income as well as interest of investors. And the second question is, can you share your employee, intern, consultant mix out of those 99 employees? And the third is, could you please share your gender diversity?

Sure. I think I'll leave the last 2 questions for Srini, he will have the numbers, but I will take the first question, which is interesting. Yes, we love products to hope that in the near future, we will have more and more of our revenues or accruals coming through product and other sales. That said, product development life cycle is a longer cycle to manage. And the wealth creation and all should not get abated by that singular focus. So it's a question of portfolio management, if you will understand -- I'm sure you understand better than me. But in our kind of a portfolio management, we also develop and see where do we put our engineering talent and best creative talents on to. And it's diversified to that point. The ventures have a slightly higher coefficient of going to market because they are not stand-alone thing, a mix of digital things. And it's easier to deploy. And many of the ventures also give us ideas, products that will go and sit in and do it. So we keep on having this kind of a 2-well strategy on which we do that. The products and all those things is, as I said, we would start doing that -- we started developing it about a year back. Typical product development cycle is a 2 to 3 years process. And we've seen some traction, as I said, coming from next year January quarter onwards. Several products, as you -- as we speak, are in the POC stage. And in fact, some of them have also been deployed as some products in terms of ventures or some companies, corporates who have used it. But it is still not a full fledge of product, the way we think of a product. And that migration and that packaging, delivery and all, I think, will start maturing from next year, January.

I'm about to answer your question on the employee mix. We have about 57 people as employees and 35 people as interns and 7 people as consultants.

Gender diversity. Could you please share if you have...

Yes. Gender diversity is roughly in the range of about 78% to 22%.

We'll take that as the last question. I would now like to hand the conference back to the management team for closing comments.

Srini, do you want to say something?

Yes. Yes. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. In case if you have any further queries, please do reach out to us. We will do our best to address. Wish you all have a great evening ahead and request you to be safe. Thank you once again.

I would like to add that this -- probably this time frame was inadequate for all the queries you may have. We want to be completely transparent, and we think of you as our co-owners, and we are -- you are entitled to every answer of the questions which are of substance. And we will absolutely, absolutely answer each and every query. Please do reach out to us onto that part. I just want to say -- end on a little of philosophical note, if you will arrange -- allow me. This is India at 75, and we have a big next 25 years ahead of us. I hope that Xelpmoc will play a big role in this next phase of the growth of India, from India at 75 to India at 100. That's the aspiration that we have for, and we hope that we will be able to make you proud, not just rich. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much. On behalf of Xelpmoc Design and Tech Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, ladies and gentlemen. You may now disconnect your lines.