Ziff Davis, Inc. (ZD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

This is William Goodman from the TMT banking team. With me today is Scott Turicchi, the CFO of J2 Global. Scott, once again, thank you for presenting at our conference this year. Looking forward to our discussion.

Absolutely. Thanks, William. It's good to be here. Why don't we kick it off, however you would like to begin.

Perfect. Maybe just the topic that of discussion is going to be the beginning of a lot of these sessions, just overall COVID, how have you navigated? And maybe just to begin with, we noticed last month, you announced that you were raising your 2020 estimates. So maybe with that as a backdrop, can you discuss how COVID has affected your business as well as long-term changes you're expecting as a result?

Yes. And there's actually a lot to impact that. We could probably take the whole session just on that one question because I think it's instructive, too, and it's how J2 both was effective and has responded and then what we see going forward. So I'll try to deal with each of those. It may be somewhat of a long answer, but I think it will be instructive for particularly those that have not followed us closely over the past 9 months. So if we go back to the beginning of the year, we actually had guidance for the full fiscal year, pre-COVID. We actually had an Analyst Day on March 4, right, as COVID was starting to really get into people's heads. I think it was within a week or 2 later, we were all working from home. And so in that initial phase, which I would say was from late March to about early May, we were transitioning to work from home, 4,000 employees, trying to understand how our different businesses positively or negatively would be impacted and what actions we could take to either mitigate if there are negative impacts or if they're positive, how do you accelerate the positives. So from an overall standpoint, you'll note that in May, we suspended guidance that we had just issued in February, in large part because there were still a number of unanswered questions. At the time, the biggest questions were how, on the media side, advertising would play out given that there was an expectation that in shutting down the economy there would be massive unemployment and a major contraction in GDP. And certainly, there were companies that did as a knee jerk do rips off employees and cut sales and marketing because they're fairly easy to do rather quickly. I would note, neither of which J2 did. So we saw some of that impact on the media side in the April to mid-May time frame. But what happened as that transition took place is it was clear there was still very much of an economy that was active. People were still needed to buy goods. They were doing it tough differently and that there was more of it being done online. And we started to see that advertising come back in May. And it's pretty much built positively each successive month from that comeback. On the cloud side of the business, the question would be -- since we cater predominantly to SMBs, but not exclusively, that's evolved over the years, certainly dramatically different than from the great recession of '08, '09. But the question would be, what will happen to the cancel rate, since these are subscribers some are month-to-month, some are annual, some are doing multiyear contracts? And what would happen to usage level? And particularly in the health care space, which has been a focus within our cloud business, but most notably in our digital fax business. We did see, not dissimilar from the media business, decline in the volume medical records being transported in that early phase, as you remember, people were not going to the doctor, hospitals were reserved for COVID patients almost exclusively and elective procedures were deferred. Once again, though, by May, when you started to see some stabilization and reopening of certain sectors of the economy, that started to come back. And once again, those volumes have grown such that by October, we were back to where we were in the pre-COVID era. So that was kind of the Q -- late Q1, early Q2 impacting questions. So as a result, we gave -- we suspended guidance in early May, but we gave a lot of sort of indicators of what we thought was possible in Q2, ended up having a very good Q2, reinstituted guidance. Then to your point, when we completed Q3, where we absolutely crushed the implied guidance, we give annual guidance, but you can kind of dissect it by quarters, then we raised guidance both based on the financial performance of J2's assets and also the completion of the acquisition of RetailMeNot, which I think we'll get to a little bit later. So as we sit here today, kind of what have the takeaways been? Well, we've seen -- the way we responded was to look at our cost structure, exclusive of our employees and our sales and market. And to give everyone a sense, about 65% of what we call our non-GAAP P&L, in essence, our cash expenses are with people, employees, and sales and marketing activities. So we said what we're going to do is look at the other 35%. We instituted a program, went through all the divisions, all the business units to basically really ask the question, how many of the services that we were buying were absolutely necessary. If they weren't, to eliminate them. If they were necessary, how can you shrink the footprint of, say, the number of people or seats that are consuming that service. And then the third was to negotiate or renegotiate better contracts. So that started. And this was, by the way, no real estate at that point. Real estate is something that came later. And so today, as we sort of get the full benefit in Q3, we probably picked up around $30 million of annualized cost savings out of that approximately $300 million that we were going after. Then in late Q3, we began to really look at the real estate footprint question, which is a going-forward benefit as we continue to stay work from home. And our view is that, that will continue for some time because while there's a lot of talk about vaccines, the question really becomes the rate at which the vaccine is distributed, at what point is a significant portion of the population vaccinated such that you can go back to less restrictions or no restrictions in terms of reinhabiting office space and conducting business as it was pre-COVID, which we think that will be probably the middle of the year, if not even later next year. So as a result, we've got a number of people that would actually like the key to work from home. We had about 12%, 13% of our workforce pre-COVID that worked from home, primarily because they were involved in sales. We believe that number is going to double, maybe even go a little bit higher even once we return. And as a result, we're going to be shrinking our real estate footprint. You might notice that in Q3, in our GAAP P&L, we took about a $13.5 million charge to abandon and exit certain real estate. We have a number of leases that we will not abandon or negotiate our way out of, but they happen to be expiring in the next couple of years. And so a number of those leases will just not be renewed. So that's, I think, going to be a future cost benefit as we look forward. From our business standpoint, I think COVID has held certain pockets that were already in transition accelerate. One area that I mentioned is the whole e-commerce. And some people are surprised that depending on which authority you look at, only low double digits of retail was done online in 2019. So there's a long way to go for that transition. This has obviously helped accelerate that as people that would not otherwise shop online were basically forced to do so. So we see that as a positive area going forward, changing behaviors. In our Everyday Health Group, very traditional method of the pharma approaching doctors, known as Dr. Detail, where they would send reps into the office with samples, give them small gift, buy them lunch, obviously, that's been shut down for the better part of 9 months. So the doctors now and the pharma are having to talk about their new drugs and new protocols in different ways, were a beneficiary of that. B, getting medical education for doctors also has shifted to all online now. Previously, it was somewhat of a split. Some would take it online, but many would like to go to a 5-star resort for 2 or 3 days, people would come in and lecture as long. As they met so many hours, we could sign their certificate and they get credit. So we see that COVID has evolved certain behaviors, which we think are permanent and will change the arc at which some of these industries were adopting new or different methods of either technology or the way in which they were going to market or in the way in which they were satisfying legal requirements.

That's very helpful. I appreciate it, Scott. Maybe just diving deeper on that, I know you touched on some of it. I mean, but in particular between your cloud business and digital media business, how have you seen it impact sort of each of them? And then overall, maybe compared to what you first thought, given as you said, the fantastic results that you see in sort of the puts and takes of it, particularly, you have a more SMB-focused customer base, but a lot of the cloud products have not surprisingly responded really well. Could you just share sort of what you've seen develop over the last 6 to 9 months here?

Yes. Interesting enough, on the cloud side, while it has been modest, we've actually seen cancel rate decline or get better from where they were pre-COVID, albeit I would emphasize the modest element of it. And that's quite a contrast to the great recession of '08, '09. Now I would remind people that the company in '08, '09 was essentially what we have called the web, fax or individual SOHO fax business. The rest of J2 pretty much didn't exist, certainly not media didn't fit, and even some of the other cloud services were very nascent at the time. So what's different between now and then? Why did the cancel rate come down versus going up? Well, one, we have, I think, a more diversified base of customers. The average customer is somewhat larger than it was in the great recession. And we found that the services, including the digital fax services, are things that you need when you transition to work from home. So it was actually for the first few weeks of the pandemic spike in sign-up, that people who were working for home needed certain services. I think the other thing that has benefited us and is different from this economic downturn versus the Great Recession is that it is much more impacted in certain industries. You can see it in traditional retail. You can see it in the restaurant industry, certainly, travel and leisure. And those happen to the industries we don't have much exposure to, either on the media side or on the cloud side. And so when you go back to '08, '09, that was a very broad-based recession, pretty much affected all industries and all people. So I think there are some important things to understand. Also, our price points are not that high. If you look at our SOHO customer base and what I call sometimes the micro SMBs, the average price point is a little under $10 per month, per user. And if you go to even our larger SMBs and medium enterprise, you're talking about $100 to $200 per month for groups of employees. So these are not expensive services. They're generally not the ones you're going to be looking to cut in order to save money and make your budget or improve your EBITDA.

That's very helpful. Appreciate that. And on the digital media side, you mentioned a little bit on the advertising. Just in general, how have you seen that segment evolve and come back over these last couple of quarters?

Yes. So the same. It was impacted the first 4, 5, 6 weeks until sort of people figured out what the economy would look like, which pockets of the economy would still be active and what you would need to do to attract potential customers. But I'd say, within 6 weeks, that was figured out pretty quickly. And so we started to see the advertising come back. For people that are not as familiar with J2, our advertising really revolves around several verticals or categories. So we do a lot in the tech space. That's both physical goods as well as virtual goods. The gaming space, which is a sister to the tech space, you can think right now as we're in the holiday season and you've got new console cycles that have been released, that's a positive trend. And then the health care category and then e-commerce. So those are the areas that we tend to focus in, if you look at our various web properties such as PCMag.com, Mashable, now RetailMeNot, Offers.com, IGN, everydayhealth.com, MedPages today. Those will be our core properties. We have many others, but those would be some of the largest ones that we have. And so as I mentioned earlier, we've seen that advertising come back across the board. It was important, almost that the pandemic happened when it did, that it happened earlier in the year because Q4 in our media business is the seasonally strongest quarter, in large part because of the holidays and the shopping that's associated with it. So having the advertisers figure out their method of going to market and the opportunities that they would see coming into Q4, well in advance of Q4 was important, and we're seeing that hold up. So far, we're in the heart of the season right now. It starts sort of in mid-November, although this year was interesting because you may have noticed even on television that a lot of the discounts normally associated with Black Friday or the Cyber Monday, started earlier November. So we saw not only a pull up of advertising into earlier November than usual, but it sustained itself through the end of November through Black Friday and Cyber Monday and so far into early December. We've still got basically 2, 2.5 weeks to go, our season goes right at full about Christmas.

That's helpful. Appreciate it. Just along the line, you mentioned the RetailMeNot acquisition. Can you just walk us through the rationale behind that and how you see it fitting into your broader digital media portfolio?

Yes. So when we talk about digital media and we talk about monetization of traffic, there's 3 ways in which we do it. It does not mean that each property monetizes in all 3 ways. But these are the 3 methods by which that traffic we get compensated. So there's the traditional display or video. So in display, you can think of the banner ads. When you load a website, the various ads you see. You can think of video pre roll. This would be very common in our IGN website because it caters to gamers, a lot of that is video oriented. And that pre-RetailMeNot, if you just look at our digital media business, that would be high 30s of our digital media revenue. Then about a few points behind in the mid-30s would be we call performance-based marketing. And performance-based marketing is unlike the first category where you're getting paid for thousands of eyeballs. In the second category, you're getting paid for some degree of success, which could be passing traffic from another website, so you get cost per click, generating a lead or actually getting a percentage of the sale. So we like that part. It's a form of monetization that we began to implement probably 5 years ago. So within a couple of years of getting into digital media, the team there said, this is really where we want to take digital media because it's got the least amount of friction with an advertiser. Once you set the standard and it's acceptable, pretty much the budgets are unlimited as long as you can keep producing at whatever that standard is. So we began to build up our performance-based market. As part of that portfolio, we acquired in late '15, a company called Offers.com, not dissimilar from RetailMeNot, but much smaller. We've also acquired a series of -- they're called Black Friday sites. It's like blackfriday.com, bestblackfriday.com. These are sites that operate really at this time of the year, although they're available 24/7, 365, most of their traffic and almost all of the revenue and EBITDA occurs in Q4. So we had experience with this performance-based market, and we like it. We think it is the future, particularly within e-commerce. The third piece, just to note would be subscriptions, but we may get to that later. So RetailMeNot is a company that we've actually known for a long time. In fact, Vivek, our CEO, was looking to buy RetailMeNot 10 years ago when he was -- when he was -- when he's left Time, Inc. and was looking for a property to begin to build the digital media business. Unfortunately, he got outbid. So he end up buying Ziff Davis. But we've watched RetailMeNot. And this is a very traditional method within J2, which is we're very patient. We watch assets because even when they have been purchased, there's often a subsequent sale down the road. So RetailMeNot was purchased by a PE firm, taken public, had about a 4-year public life. It was taken private in 2016, so 4-plus years ago, ended up in an entity under MacAndrews & Forbes. The direct entity known it was called Vericast, which was in the physical -- or is in the physical couponing business. And of course, RetailMeNot is in the digital couponing business. So while at one level, it sounds like there might be great synergies and opportunities, in fact, they are 2 different businesses. Not dissimilar from if you publish magazine versus you have the digital version, they're not the same business, they don't monetize the same way. So there was kind of a premise on which Vericast bought RetailMeNot that didn't really pan out. They've come under some distress as a company, which motivated them to sell. So we've kept our eye on it for a number of years. It's one of those assets that if it comes up at the right price at the right time, we'd be interested. Clearly, it fits the thesis of the transition whether it is at a faster or slower pace towards e-commerce. Now clearly, COVID, which was independent of our desire and analysis is moving those trends faster and accelerating, which we believe will only be a benefit. So we closed it in late October. It will be early next year combined with our Offers.com and our Black Friday sites which will actually now boost performance marketing to the primary form of monetization within our Digital Media group. We see some great opportunities to upgrade the RetailMeNot site and app. It's kind of been left on it own for a while. And so as a result, it's one of the monetization within that world is good, we believe it could be better. And I would just encourage people to load the RetailMeNot site because what we did since we bought it in Q4 is to finish out the year. So if you go to RetailMeNot.com or load the app, it is as when we bought it. If you go to Offers.com, a property of ours that I mentioned we've owned for about 5 years now, we will begin to see the differences between the two, and the opportunity is what we can bring to the RetailMeNot website. In short, it's to bring content into the website and the app that will facilitate and help you make a decision to buy for which there is a higher commission there versus really dropping the coupon to enhance the probability that something you've already bought you will in fact close on. And then there's a third piece of it which is a toolbar extension called Deal Finder that actually RetailMeNot developed but never aggressively distributed. And so there is a entity out there called Honey that was subsequently bought by PayPal at something like 40x revenue which runs in the background on your browser. And every time you're shopping for anything looking to see if there's a coupon for which you might get some form of a discount. So we're going to do -- and I think the Vericast was more challenged to do is because we've got all of these properties, such as PCMag, Mashable in the health care space, What To Expect, BabyCenter. We can promote Deal Finder across all of our product to accelerate the download [ in itself ]. So these are all things you'll see in 2021. We were able to buy it at about 7x its trailing EBITDA. So it is profitable. We believe that as we exit next year and go into 2022, we should be at about $80 million run rate which would have us in right around 5x EBITDA. So we're very excited about it, I say, but we're not currently unlike our normal pace, we're not actively integrating right now, just because of the time of year and the positive seasonality that all of these digital media properties have and could not be too disruptive to try to do that. But we'll start to effectuate those changes come June.

And I guess just taking a step back -- it's very helpful, Scott. Thank you. But taking a step back as you think about overall Digital Media portfolio, I mean, how do you think about it? Now it just feels like -- it feels like big piece of a puzzle. Are we thinking about that correctly or ?

Yes. When we look at Digital Media, look, it's a vast space. Let's say, we cover a handful of verticals right now. So when you think about where do we go going forward, there are verticals, we could go deeper in that we're not known for. You could think of areas like finance. We are known in areas like . So one is sort of vertical content. There's a lot more to be done in the health care space. Well, we have properties that cater to the consumer patient and for the doctors. There's a lot of specialty conditions that could be added to the portfolio. Think of everydayhealth.com as the hub and then the spokes would be in specific conditions. We did buy earlier this year, it's not very large, a property called migraine.com, which as the name implies deals with headaches and migraines and treatment protocols around those conditions, which while the population may be small that has them, they are very debilitating. So we see a lot of opportunity. I think we want to stick to Ziff Davis and to the e-commerce. There are certainly other properties that you could buy that would be additive to the performance-based marketing. We also buy properties that are heavy display advertising-oriented where we believe a portion of the monetization could be converted to performance-based market, something like we did with Mashable a few years ago. It was purely display and video, and it took about a year the way you present the content, the way you deal with the advertisers. Now it has a portion of its revenue that comes from performance-based market. So we look for those opportunities as well. So the new verticals would be one category, ability to convert and procure display to at least a meaningful amount of performance-based marketing and then additional properties within the health care setup. There's a lot for us still to do. I don't think we ever believe we've accomplished or finished in any category.

Given your history data, that makes sense. I mean as we think about overall your M&A strategy, I mean, the last few years, there seemed like more of the overall dollars have been spent on digital media versus cloud, where now digital media looks like it will be over 50% of the overall revenue base, I think, for the first time. I mean, is that the ideal mix that you're looking for? Would you do more sizable M&A in the cloud area? Just help us all get a sense of how you think about the weighting between the 2 from an M&A standpoint?

Yes. There's no magic mix between the 2 segments. And really, it's the 3 divisions. So we operate at -- we report in 2 segments, cloud and digital media. We actually operate in 3 divisions, Everyday Health Group, Ziff Davis and cloud services. So I hear this comment a lot because the M&A, if you go back over a number of years, will appear that it is heavily weighted towards one segment or the other. A lot of that is just the way the M&A plays out. It's not a concerted effort to do more in one area or the other. We like the idea that the 2 segments have some degree of relative balance. It doesn't mean it's got to be 50-50. It's probably could be 60-40, either one, so that we're squarely in both cloud services and digital media. But when our business units and divisions, they're all active in finding deals, they present them to us, and they're basically based on our view of the transaction, the purchase price, the expected return. They're independently reviewed and either accepted or rejected without this sort of question of, well, this is going to further tip us more towards media and more towards cloud. So we've done some cloud deals over the last couple of years. In fact, last year, we did a significant one, in '19, buying IPVanish and some related assets from StackPath that got us into the VPN space. In fact, that was our largest deal actually. The largest deal in '19 was a cloud deal. The largest deal in '20, most likely, we still got a few days left, will be RetailMeNot. So it just flows that way. But for us, it's really about the deal, the opportunity set, the expected return we can make within that, does that justify us putting the capital to work. Now I know that for -- as a public company, that can create some questions for people because a lot of the aggregate growth rates and margins are really a function of the proportionality of the 2 segments of their contribution. So our Digital Media business generally runs at a lower EBITDA margin. Historically, it's been in the 35% range. But this year, it looks like it will trend up to high 30s. And the cloud business generally runs at 50% EBITDA margin, and this would be without any corporate allocations from the parent. So your EBITDA margin on a consolidated basis is very much influenced by the mix between those 2 segments. Cloud generally has a lower organic growth rate than media. While neither one is being run for top line organic growth, we do see and believe that we can get somewhere between the mid and occasionally high single digits of organic growth in media. But to get those margins in cloud, generally, we're going to be low-single digit organic growth. And I'm talking in normalized times and not volatile times with recession and various things like that.

Very helpful. Maybe following your -- the $750 million senior notes offering, are you comfortable with your current capital -- cap structure and cash position?

Yes. That -- that's a -- that was an important financing for us. We may be hitting the fact that we went out wanting or thinking we might raise more now as you're probably aware, this has been, although I think it will continue at sort of an unprecedented time, I mean, every time we've gone to raise debt, we think the market is good. And then a few years later, it's even lower rates than previous year. Part of it is, of course, is our credit improving and diversifying, but it's also just where the markets are at if you look at 10-year treasuries. You can look at the spreads over that for high yield. So when we started the process, our view was, look, if we can't take advantage and sort of bottom hit the market, we should -- and we kind of knew RetailMeNot was at one corner of the eye, we should replenish the balance sheet, that's going to cost us $420 million, so we should replenish the balance sheet with cash on hand. We tend to like to have cash on hand makes us very effective in getting deals done. We don't have to either go raise money or go get even drawdowns or changes to our bank loan. So that's where we started, which would have been over the summer, where we thought we might get in the low 4s as a rate. Unfortunately, by the time we got rating got out and you started to have some jitters because of the upcoming election, we ended up going out, thought we get a deal done probably 4 3/8%. 4.5%, if we're a little unlucky. And the evening before we price, the President announced the . And so you may recall the morning of October 2, were very late the night of October 1, the futures markets went south across the board, whether it was equities or debt, it started to back up our pricing. And our view was, look, we just we're not going to pay on $1.2 billion for excess cash that we don't have an immediate need at this kind of a rate. So we cut the deal back to $750 million, which allowed us to refinance the 6% notes, which were at the cloud level. The new issue is up at the parent, which is where the convert's up. So now all of our debt is the parent and all of the credit of J2, all the assets of J2 support that credit. We're able to accomplish that lower interest rate for the last 10 years versus the old bonds that were 8, and they were 3 years in. There was a call price of $104.5, which was painful. So that was about $29 million. So by the time we paid the $650 million, paid $29 million call premium, a couple of months of interest and fees and expenses, that rounded as slightly over $700 million. So we topped off at $750 million for a little bit of extra cash on the balance sheet. Today, we sit with about $200-ish million of cash. We're going to reinstitute the line of credit that we terminated at the time of the deal that was at the cloud level and put it up at the parent, that will be $100 million, but expandable to $350 million. So I feel like between the cash on the balance sheet, the line of credit and then the fact that we are in our highest cash flow producing months now, December, January, February through March, that we sit in very good shape as we look to 2021. Obviously, if we were going to do another multihundred million dollar deal, we might not have all of the cash available right now. But the reality is those deals for J2 generally don't come back to that. There's usually some separation measured in years between the size of a RetailMeNot and the next deal on that yield. So my view is that at least in the next few months from an M&A standpoint, we will be doing what I call tuck-in to midsized deals. Tuck-ins are very small deals, paying you usually less than $15 million. They are rapidly integrated into a business unit. There are usually very high synergies associated with them because we're essentially taking traffic on the media side. We're taking customers on the cloud side, and we're merging them into something we already do. And then the mid-sized deals would be tens of millions to $100 million in transaction value, where oftentimes, they are also going into an existing business unit, but sometimes they are adding new elements to that business unit. So if I take as an example, a little over a year ago, we bought BabyCenter to come into our pregnancy and parenting business unit in Everyday Health as a complement to What To Expect. And so while there were synergies between the 2, they are targeting or, in this case, extending for the life of someone who comes in from What To Expect, which is primarily associated with pregnancy into the early and toddler years, which [ would be based ].

Got it. And then maybe lastly here, can you just touch on some of your ESG initiatives that you recently announced, like the NAACP partnership and some others?

Yes. There's -- we've actually been doing a lot. I would encourage people to go to our website. You'll see it's been updated. There's a discussion of a number of the ESG initiatives. You've highlighted one of them. I think there's a few key takeaways. One is with the social unrest started in May of this year, we said, what can we do? But what's more important is doing versus talking. So you can say a lot of things. You put out press releases. But how can you actually go out and help these communities? So we've deposited about $10 million with African-American banks that serve local communities. We have the partnership with the NAACP that you noted. In our gaming business unit, we have a fund to help African-American developers of games, where we make investments in the system. So there's a number of initiatives that came out of that whole initial phase of social unrest. So that's sort of one piece. Each of our business units independent and before that were already doing a number of charitable activities. We just never really put them all together and talked about that. So you're going to see on the website an updating of the activities of the various elements that either are sponsored by a business unit or the J2 in its consolidated totality sponsor. The other element for us at ESG is the Board. And so we've been evolving the board, both as skill set and to diversity. So this year alone, we've added 2 directors. Scott comes to us from Symantec to bring us cybersecurity expertise. Pam comes to us from the health care industry, which is a big piece, not only of obviously what we're doing Everyday Health Group, but an increasing piece of what we do in the cloud. So they brought both gender diversity to the table, but they've also got diversity of expertise to J2. And you're going to see more of this. In fact, early next year, we will, for those that are interested, have a ESG road show available. So there'll be actually a deck instead of talking about J2 and its businesses and its financial performance will be very focused on ESG, the initiatives that we have already put in place, but also things we want to do as we look forward. So there are -- there's a continuing list of ESG initiatives. And probably one of the biggest we issued, for example, for the first time ever, a diversity and inclusion report, which is also available at our website. It's really meant to create a baseline for us in terms of our hiring practices and the diversity of our workforce. So I would encourage people to also go and download that. We'll be issuing that every year, and you can see the progress that we make over time. We will also, for the first time, really been working with those rating agencies that give you scores for ESG. We've historically really not focused to pay a lot of attention to it. So we'd like our scores to be better, to put it that way. And a lot of it we've learned is just being in communication with them, letting them know what we're doing. So ESG has become a big part of J2's focus. We're going to start to also think about how we lead ESG initiatives into compensation of senior management, something that historically has not been the case.

Excellent. Appreciate it, Scott. And once again -- I think it's all the time we have. Once again, thank you for coming and presenting at our TMT conference. Looking forward to it next year.

William, Appreciate it. Thank you very much. And obviously, if anybody listening has questions, reach out through UBS. You got my e-mail address, contact me directly. Happy to follow-up. Thank you, everyone.

Thank you.