Ziff Davis, Inc. (ZD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to day 2 afternoon of the JPMorgan conference. Cory Carpenter, Internet analyst here. Happy to have Ziff Davis, CEO, Vivek Shah; and CFO, Bret Richter, with me today. Thank you both for joining.

It's great to be here.

So for those who haven't followed the story as closely, Vivek, I think to start, maybe if you could level set just what the Ziff Davis portfolio looks like today.

Yes. So we have been -- we built the company by systematically acquiring and growing digital media and Internet businesses where we see a path to value creation. So we own a couple of dozen assets across 5 different vertical categories, which I'm sure we'll talk about. Very much a total growth mindset, looking to drive organic growth from the businesses we own as well as drive growth through the acquisition of assets where, again, we think we can stimulate growth, diversified business model, advertising, subscription revenue, licensing revenue. And look, I think that -- in the end, I think the business has had -- it's had sort of a flattish period of time but really coming out of that from a growth perspective.

So more near term, you reported earnings last week. Thought it would be helpful. Just what's the quick recap of the quarter and the key messages that you wanted to get across?

Yes. So as I was saying, ahead of our internal estimates, which is good. Revenue growth of 5% in the quarter. If you look at 4 of our 5 segments that used to be put together into the Digital Media segment, that segment grew 9%. We reaffirmed our guidance for the year, which is about mid-single-digit growth across all of the metrics, revenue, EBITDA and EPS. M&A cadence looks really good. So we're closing transactions. 2024 was a pretty good year from an M&A point of view. We think 2025 holds the same sort of potential. Balance sheet's in a great place. So a lot to like, I think, in the print and kind of a good setup for the rest of the year.

So before we go into the new segmentation of the company, we have to get the macro and tariff questions out of the way, the obligatory ones. On macro, you had a pretty sanguine message, I thought, last week. What are you seeing on the advertising side and in other parts of your business? And how do you think about just overall the resilience of Ziff Davis should macro start to deteriorate?

So ad revenues were really strong in the quarter, I mean, up 12% in Q1. And so that's something to feel very good about. And as I've talked about in the past, when I think about the ad market, I think of it categorically by the categories in which we operate. So That's Tech & Shopping and Health & Wellness and Gaming & Entertainment. And so there's a lot to like. I'll start with Health & Wellness. I just think that we're seeing a strong FDA drug pipeline, which is a real driver to the ad business there. And again, there's a digital upfront that takes place in that category, so we have some perspective there. And so that's a mid-single-digit growth proposition consistent with Q1. In the Gaming & Entertainment space, also reasonably good growth on the advertising side, mid-single digit in Q1. And we look towards the rest of the year, console releases can be good for us. So the Nintendo Switch 2 kind of ushers in a bunch of new IP. That IP has advertising attached to it. And so we think that will be a nice tailwind as we go through the year. And Tech & Shopping will be interesting. So really good first quarter. The category is probably the category where questions around tariffs kind of come up and are relevant. And so I look at it this way: I think the software-oriented categories, maybe some of the exempt categories, phones, et cetera, we won't see much of an impact potentially in the other areas, the degree to which there are tariffs that put cost pressure on these businesses. And they start to look for ways in which they're managing their cost. That's obviously something we're going to watch. Have we seen any signs of that? No. But that's something we're going to look to. On the shopping side, this is more a consumer statement than it is an ad statement, but something to just consider. The degree to which the consumer is facing price increases, the consumer may decide to look for discounts and cash back and savings, and our RetailMeNot platform is perfect for that. So the advertising macro looks good right now. So I feel good about where we sit and where the quarter is and some of the trends. In the subscription business, we had slightly down. There was some noise in our Cyber & Martech Tech segment, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But generally speaking, that's also been kind of a very steady and low single-digit-type growth proposition. I think that continues. I think we have really good retention in a lot of the businesses. For instance, our cybersecurity business, high revenue retention and that type of thing. And I don't see that changing.

I think that covers macros -- macro and tariffs well. We'll move on. So I want to go segment by segment. You provided new disclosure earlier this year to give investors a lot more visibility into the verticals. Maybe to start before we go into each, what was the rationale behind this? And what's the message that you're trying to get across?

Look, I mean, I think we want to have the investment community have a better understanding of the business, have a better appreciation for the business and the pieces of the business. I find often that the questions are disproportionate. They're all about maybe just one piece of the business, 20% of the business or even less and said, "Look, let's unpack this a little bit." And so what we hope happens is that we can see the investment community start to look at all of the pieces and understand each of the pieces on their own to come up with a valuation. Obviously, the company, we believe, is operating very much right now and valued very much at a discount. And so sitting there and looking at each of these, we've provided 4 or 5 years of revenue history. We've provided probably 9 quarters of history down to adjusted EBITDA and to operating income. So there's a lot there to look at. You can see revenue disaggregation, advertising, subscription and licensing and other by each of the 5 segments. So you've got a lot to look at to really understand the company in a better way. This is us being responsive. We've been asked for this, and we're saying, "Okay, listen, here it is and get to it." And so I'd love to see you, Cory...

I've got some homework.

Look at a little bit of a sum of the parts. That would be, I think, productive.

Okay. No, that makes sense. So let's go through each of the 5. I know in prior years at the conference we've done ad subscriptions. Now we get to go in more...

And you can do ads and subs, too, however you want to go.

So let's start with just Technology & Shopping. Maybe I thought it would be helpful if you could go through just the key businesses in that vertical and what the revenue drivers are.

Yes. So that is the CNET group, which includes CNET, PCMag, Mashable, Lifehacker, Spiceworks, a broad range of tech media properties, certainly the leader within the space. And then the RetailMeNot group, which is RetailMeNot and associated properties, that's more in the discount and cash back savings space. Together, the segment grew about 14% top line, 44% in adjusted EBITDA, a very strong quarter. That is owing to organic growth within some of those consumer tech properties and margin expansion within the CNET group with CNET, and I can talk about that in a moment. And then also just some success in -- within the shopping business. There is a drag within this segment that I should point out, which is the B2B businesses, which has been a long-term drag for this segment and for the company, has been the single largest drag for the company from an organic growth point of view. We're basically getting to the point where it shrunk to a level where it doesn't have as much of an impact and to the point where actually it is profitable. And so that was something we look to do, which was walk away from even more revenue within that business, simplify it to basically a single 1 or 2 SKUs and get to profitability. And so the expense out was in excess of the revenue that we walked away from. And so that was an EBITDA contributor, which contributed to the 44% adjusted EBITDA growth. But just back to CNET. And so what we've done is we go to market now as the CNET group with single sales force, single marketing force. We have a single audience development team, single engineering team, single product team. We do have multiple editorial teams to maintain voice across each of the products, but a single editorial director who sits on top of those. And so this has been a success. And everything we were hoping to happen by bringing CNET in, putting us into a market leadership position -- I mentioned on the call sort of our ability to come to market was crystallized at CES where we had a really great presence. And I think a lot of marketers and tech marketers who were at the show would tell you that, "Look, it's great to see this come together." We view ourselves as kind of the one-stop buy within this vertical.

So let's move to Gaming & Entertainment. Similar to the Tech & Shopping vertical, just if you could go through the key businesses. And then any notable trends to call out here?

So the go-to-market is IGN Entertainment. So that's IGN; that's Humble Bundle; that's Gamer Network; a recent acquisition, Maxroll. So this is a series of video gaming and entertainment-oriented properties, a nice combination, advertising and subscription, a mid-single-digit grower. This quarter, 6% to 7%, probably last year, from memory. A very good business for us, a very good market space for us, again, where we're in a leadership position. We had a little bit of a hiccup on the subscription piece of the business, which is Humble Bundle, which is really around the games and the assortment that we had on offer on Q1, probably wasn't as strong as we had wanted. So there's a lumpiness that comes with that business. It's a function of how good is the IP in any given period. But again, we're addressing that. So I don't -- it's not something that I'm terribly concerned about. But the advertising growth was quite strong. EBITDA wasn't strong. There was some timing of expenses. But again, I think that will work itself -- reverse itself, frankly, in Q2. So again, very strong signs. I mentioned, I think, Switch 2, just in terms of things that can help contribute. I think as streaming platforms grow, that's good for us, too. So there's been -- the business has expanded to being beyond video games and has a pretty good streaming advertiser base.

So Health & Wellness, which will be our third of 5, your largest vertical last year. What are the key businesses in Health & Wellness? And if you could talk through some of the trends that are impacting performance there as well.

Yes. So this is the Everyday Health Group. That's the go-to-market. So that's Everyday Health, it's MedPage, it's PRIME, it's BabyCenter, it's What To Expect. It's a series of businesses that reach consumers but also reach providers. Again, strong growth out of the business, kind of mid- to high single-digit revenue growth in the business, double-digit EBITDA growth in the quarter, a business that historically, if you looked at historical financials, has been a pretty steady grower. Last year, was a flattish business. But we view the -- as I think I said earlier, the drug pipeline as being favorable. So look, I think that's a -- it's a great space. Again, we're #1 in comScore there as well. So we've got a leadership position in the space. The pharma advertising world, in particular, is a really good one. It -- pharma has certain restrictions around where it can advertise and platforms. And so they generally like to either go broad mass market or they like to go very endemic, but they stay away from social platforms generally. And so that's -- it's an interesting space for us. As the pharma pipeline and the therapies become more targeted, I think targeting platforms like ours make a lot of sense.

Connectivity, so this is...

Just one thing on that. There's a really great subscription business in there at Lose It! that has been killing it. It is actually GLP-1s and weight loss. And the focus there has actually been very good for that business as people -- I kind of -- I was making this analogy earlier. You get an injury, you take the cortisone shot, you still need to do the PT. And in that sense, that's what Lose It! has become. So as people get on GLP-1s, get some initial benefit, they want to actually change their diet and fitness to complement what they're doing with the GLP-1.

Makes sense. So Connectivity, that's actually been your fastest-growing segment historically. I know there's been a few moving parts recently. Maybe what's kind of in that portfolio? And what are the underlying drivers that have supported that level of growth over the years?

So it goes to market as Ookla. And within Ookla, you have Speedtest, Downdetector, RootMetrics and Ekahau. So the first 3 are mostly what I'll just refer to as a Data as a Service business. So what Speedtest is, is a consumer application. It's on 300 million devices. People organically install it. They take a speed test. We get a quantum of data that comes through that activity. In addition, we get some background testing data as well, along with crowdsourced speed testing. And then we have RootMetrics, which does drive testing. All of that becomes a data analytics and intelligence platform that carriers, ISPs, regulators, tower companies all subscribe to, to have a better understanding of network performance in a real-time basis, doing network benchmarking, et cetera. An incredible business. And the other part of the business, which is Ekahau, is WiFi planning, design and deployment. So in a room like this, you'll look up, you'll see wireless access points within the room. Those wireless access points, the design, the deployment, the frequency, et cetera, is informed by Ekahau. We are the market leader in this. Last year, wireless access point sales were down roughly 25% in the industry. So if you have a 25% decline in the hardware that we are essentially informing how to deploy, that's going to have an impact on your business. We kept that business flat, which I thought was a great outcome. This is going to fundamentally change. As WiFi 7 comes to market, all these routers are going to become WiFi 7 routers. They're not going to happen day -- overnight, but over time, you're going to see this sort of refresh that takes place. And as this hardware refresh takes place, that's going to bring in an Ekahau. So we're super excited about that. Having said all that, in the quarter, again, entirely through the Speedtest side of the business, the data side of the business, we grew 5%. We see that accelerating through the year because that was a good chunk of the business, nearly half, not growing on the Ekahau side, but I think that's going to continue. The margins in this business are really, really incredible. They're in excess of 50%. I said on our call, this is easily a Rule of 60 company.

Last one, so we'll finish on Cybersecurity & Martech. This was your only vertical that declined this quarter. And I think it's been a drag on growth for a bit now.

It has.

Maybe could you give us some background on what's going on here? And where are you at in the turnaround process?

So this is just a bundle of businesses that are endpoint security, which is VIPRE; VPN, personal VPN, consumer VPN, which is IPVanish; marketing technology businesses, iContact, Campaigner; the e-mail marketing businesses, Moz, which is search engine optimization; and STAT, which is search engine optimization; and then Line2, eVoice, which is second line. So there's a series of stuff here. And they're moving in different pieces. The one thing I'll say in aggregate is that it was a tough comp because last year had a onetime benefit, this year didn't. So it showed the year-over-year not favorably. I will say that sequentially, we're optimistic that we will see sequential growth throughout the year. So that I think is a very important piece. The other thing is that we've been really focused on margin, and we had a fair amount of margin expansion and margin growth last year. And so that was another thing which was just really focusing on profit-making. There are different dynamics in each of these markets. I will say, generally, that what has been historically a challenge, which has been VPN growth, given bookings and retention, we're feeling good about where that's going. I think we have some questions and -- open questions around Moz and some of the other pieces that we've got to work through. But look, I think cash flowing, margin expanding and sequential growing, I actually think it will be a contributor.

So let's move to AI. You recently filed a lawsuit against OpenAI regarding unauthorized use of your content. Could you talk to just what led you here and your broader thoughts on the data licensing landscape?

Yes. So look, I mean, I think we tried to cut a deal. And we obviously didn't successfully do that. And we felt that it was important for us to protect our intellectual property, our copyrights and our trademarks. I encourage everyone to read our claim because it is accessible. It's readable. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand it. I think when you read it, you'll recognize that we have very strong points that we're making. You cannot take our copyrighted information, create copies, compress, retain and use and create commercial and gain -- and drive a commercial benefit from that. There needs to be compensation. So filing a lawsuit to ensure that for a company that is an IP maker, an IP producer and currently an uncompensated supplier to a large language model we thought was very important. I will also point you to a day or 2 ago the U.S. Copyright Office published -- prepublished a paper. And if you read that, I think you will come across -- you will come to a headline that says many of the uses of content and copyright were not fair use, and therefore, do require compensation. And so look, we think it's important as a large digital media company, as a large publisher, as a large provider of content to these systems, I think it was important for us to do this. And so look, I think we feel very good in our case.

Last one on AI. I think it's no secret there's concern in the industry just around the risk of generative search and how that could impact publisher traffic. Could you talk about how you're thinking about this risk and what you're seeing play out in the AI overviews and just how dependent you are on search traffic?

Yes. So look, I mean we went through some of this math. I'd just do it really quickly. So 35% of the company's revenues are web traffic-based. So that's what people are talking about. What's going to happen to web traffic? It's 35%. It's not 100% because we have systematically diversified our business. This is something we -- we've never wanted to be dependent on any single company or any single platform, whether it's Google, whether it's Alphabet, whether larger Google, whether it's Meta, whether it's TikTok, whether -- whoever it is, we want to be diversified. So that has been part of our model for a long time. So 35% is web traffic-based, which is less than what I think most people assume. Within that, 40% is search. So we are successful at search, 40%. 40%, 35%, we're talking about 15% of the company's revenues. Of that, 20% of our queries right now generate an AI overview. So we're talking about a 3% situation. I think the amount of attention it's gotten, at least in the dialogues that we have, make it seem that it's far more than that. So it's disproportionate. But even where there are AI overviews, 33% of the time, we're finding that we're in the AI overview, which is some of the best real estate right now on a search engine result page. All to say, I don't know if AI overviews are negative, some positive, some are zero-sum, I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. It's early and it's hard to track. All I would say is -- and by the way, the other thing I would say is that the #1 query in search related to our properties are our properties names themselves. IGN is the #1 search query for IGN. BabyCenter is the #1...

[indiscernible] by how much traffic you get just from that generic search that's not related -- not brand-related?

Nonbrand search. It is -- some sub, we can. But in the end, it just brings down more of the percentages, right? So if I'm at 40%, it's less than 40%, right? So -- and that's probably a next layer to do, too, which gets to like we're talking about nonbranded search where AI overviews are present. We're getting to even lower single digits percentages of revenue, which is all to say that, look, search absolutely matters. No one can sit there and say, "Search doesn't matter." But search is a function of discovery, and I do think that discovery still will happen. Ultimately, I go back to your other question, which is if search concedes query volume to AI platforms, those AI platforms could only survive with content feeding them. And so there needs to be a compensation mechanism there, which is why these 2 questions can be related and can be connected.

Bret, thank you for your patience over there. So -- and if anyone has -- in the audience has a question, feel free to raise your hand. I'll start with a financial question, though, and capital allocation next. So you guided to revenue acceleration in 2Q. You reiterated your outlook just a few days ago, so very fresh. Bret, what's driving the improved growth in 2Q and kind of underwriting your confidence in the full year outlook right now?

Well, it starts with our performance in the first quarter. So again, to reiterate, we had our own internal assumptions and expectations, and we largely beat those. We were ahead on revenue relative to our expectations, we were ahead on adjusted EBITDA, and we were almost spot on adjusted EPS. I think you can -- as Vivek took us through, if you go segment by segment, there are different dynamics in each of the segments, but they all have elements of improved performance. And some of it in Tech & Shopping, maybe more from M&A in the case of CNET. And as we walk through them, I won't repeat everything that's said, but we see dynamics in the gaming business, whether it be the Sidekick 2 or better content in Humble. We see strength in the health business from pharma and the upfront. We see growth coming back and accelerating forward in our Connectivity business. And there were some anomalies in the first quarter for cyber martech, and we see that sequentially improving over the course of the year. We also -- and again, I'm at risk of being redundant here to a degree. We're very, very conscious of elements in the macro, but we haven't seen the disruption to our marketplace. So as we build our expectations for the balance of the year, if stability remains and we can continue to operate globally through the change in the global trade environment, we expect to have a year that's consistent with our expectations that we set in February.

And then you also reiterated your profit guide. And I know you haven't had to do this yet, you're not seeing it yet, but should the macro environment deteriorate, what's your ability or your appetite perhaps to pull back expenses and protect profit if needed?

There's almost a data point you could look at. So in the last 3 years, where we've migrated at various points through the expectations that we've set in the beginning of the year, we've been able to consistently deliver adjusted EBITDA margins on the order of 35%. And that has been the result of us both monitoring our spending and taking actions at various points in time to reduce costs, reduce investments when we haven't seen the performance out of certain of our businesses. Our expectations going forward is to the extent we saw top line pressure or we were failing to meet our expectations, we would continue to take actions to be within a reasonable range of our expected EBITDA margins.

Makes sense. Any questions in the audience? All right. I'll keep moving. Acquisitions is part of your DNA. You've -- you mentioned at the beginning, you've gotten more active lately. How would you characterize the M&A market? And what types of acquisitions are you looking for?

Continue? So I think the acquisitions that we both announced and consummated through the first 4-plus months of this year and we've said that -- we've announced 2, we've closed an additional one in the beginning of the second quarter and signed a fourth have largely been tuck-ins. So these are highly attractive acquisitions that are highly synergistic with the businesses that we currently operate, where we've seen communities that are served by products that fit well within the product sets that we provide in the communities that we serve. We have a very robust pipeline that I think right now covers all 5 of our segments. In fact, if you just look in the last -- these 4 and then last 12 months, almost every one of our segments has become active. Last year was pretty more dominated by Tech & Shopping. But already this year, health has participated, gaming has participated, and in the fourth quarter of last year, Cyber & Martech participated. We're constantly on the outlook for acquisitions for our Connectivity business. And again, always things in the pipeline that we're pursuing.

Yes. And the only thing -- I just -- I'll reiterate the formula, right? So we look for 20% cash-on-cash returns on our deals. We look for M&A to contribute roughly 50%, generally speaking, long term of the revenue and EBITDA growth. We look to convert -- of the company, we look to convert 50% of -- 50% to 55% of our EBITDA into free cash flow. That free cash flow gets into recycling into the acquisition program and financing any borrowings we do for the acquisition program. There is a -- and we would -- we generally kind of a self-imposed limit of gross debt to EBITDA of 3x. So within that rubric, all I would say is -- and that has been the historic rubric. We took a pause in 2022 and 2023 for market reasons, maybe some portfolio reasons, but we're back into that program. And I think what you're going to see -- add into that our share buyback activity. We've bought in 10% of the company in the last 4 quarters. You're going to see the return to the kind of predictable, steady and attractive EPS compounding that I think people came to expect and see from the company for a decade. And I think the last couple of years didn't have that. And I think we're here to say that all of the pieces are aligned for a return to that. In fact, we've been seeing it. There's been 3 straight quarters of growth. We had a great EPS growth rate in the second half of last year, and we're expecting the same for the balance of this year.

Vivek, I thought you made an interesting point on the earnings call that you're doing more EBITDA this year than in 2021 when the stock was worth 4 or 5x more. You're actively buying your own shares, as you said. But I would just be curious to hear your thoughts on why you think this value disconnect is happening and some of the ways you think you can address it.

Look, I think the interruption of our system and our program is part of it. Look, 2022 and 2023 did not look like any other year in recent memory. And I think that the market noticed and I think the market has a view of that. So that's one. I think -- two, I think there are a lot of questions around AI. I think we're trying our best to address them and size them and frame them and put them in the context -- the appropriate context of our business. But there are, I think there's a fair amount of that. And then there are things -- look, we can't control the macro and tariffs and SMID-Caps and the flight to Megacaps and all these things that are happening. But those to me are cyclical, right? So I think the combination of the imperfect, frankly, alignment of our own formula not presenting itself for a couple of years against a new technology, which -- what did we say was the rule? The...

The impact the technology...

The Amara rule?

The Amara rule.

The Amara rule. We have a tendency to overestimate the impact of a technology in the near term and then underestimate it over the long term. We're in the overestimating phase right now with AI. And so I think the overestimation of AI, I think us, frankly, not performing against the model as it was established for more than a decade. And then I think just the macro environment in general probably places us where we are. We don't think it's the correct place. And we think that it's up to us to continue to provide segment analysis, the disclosure, information around AI and AI impacts. And I think this works out.

That's what I was going to add. I do -- I think we appreciate that there's a complexity of the business. We generate revenue a lot of different ways. We provide a little -- many products and services. We serve different communities. And our move to the disclosure of 5 segments, we hope, will start to provide clarity of how our various businesses are not only linked together, but the overall economic output that they generate and have generated over time, as we said -- Vivek said earlier in the call, there's now multiple years and 9-some-odd quarters that you can look back at the performance. What I think is not fully appreciated is the other side of the complexity coin is the diversity coin. And because of the number of different ways that we generate revenue, because roughly 50% of the revenue of the company is non-advertising-related, we've been able to weather various storms, including the digital media storm in 2022 and the beginning of 2023, maintain top line, maintain margin and produce roughly $500 million in EBITDA on an annual basis. And to the extent some of the revenue pressure points within the company declined in aggregate like our B2B tech business and become smaller parts of the whole and certain of our businesses put up stronger growth like they did in the first quarter as compared to 2024, our anticipation is the clarity that we've provided, the performance that we hope to provide start to answer some questions that are in the marketplace.

All right. So let's close on a bigger-picture question either of you or both of you, feel free to answer. What are the 1 or 2 things you're most excited about and that you think could be most transformative to the business in the years ahead?

I'll start and then -- and Bret, please chime in. Look, so the flip of complexity is diversity. And that's what we have. And so the degree to which we find ourselves in a difficult macro, I think we're going to shine in that. And I think we did in 2020. If you look back at our financials, this was a company that was able to manage through what was a really disruptive year in a really great way. If we don't have that, and my preference is that we don't have a market downturn, I think we're going to start to see an acceleration in all 5 segments of the business. We're optimistic about all 5. I think they're lined up in various ways and for various reasons to perform and do well. So I think the return to organic growth will be very positive for the company. I think the return of an M&A cadence, consistent with our history, will be very positive for the company. And I think the better appreciation of the pieces of the company, I think, get to an experience, I think, is pretty exciting. And so I can't pick one of these businesses because each one, I see things that I like and things that I think rhyme with value creation. And so that's not always the case in a portfolio. You often have in a portfolio of things that you love and maybe things you don't love. Right now, I sit there and I say, "Every one of our businesses has earned its place in this portfolio." Every one of these businesses has a potential to create value for our shareholders, and that's exciting. And I'm not sure I've ever actually been in a position where I felt I could say that about each one of these. And so that's where we are right now. And I think it's incumbent upon us to -- as I like to say, this -- to use the Bill Parcells quote, the scoreboard is what -- you are what the scoreboard says you are. And I think the scoreboard is going to improve.

So the only thing I'd add is, maybe metaphorically, we are where our feet are. So we could look back over the last multiple years into our performance and analyze it, and we go through reasons and up-downs and look at numbers. We could look at our guidance and our expectations and have our hopes and our fears, and in some cases, concerns about the future. But where our feet are is an income statement that produces about $1.4 billion of revenue and roughly $500 million of adjusted EBITDA, a balance sheet that's healthy with cash, with relatively low leverage, both on an absolute standpoint and a relative standpoint, and a cash flow statement that produces hundreds of millions of dollars of cash. And if that's where we're starting our forward journey, that gets me excited.

Great. Well, I think we'll end it there. Thanks, everyone, for coming.

Thanks, Cory. Appreciate it.