Zigup Plc (ZIG.L) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, and welcome to the Redde Northgate plc investor presentation. [Operator Instructions] I'd now like to hand you over to Ross Hawley, Head of Investor Relations. Good afternoon.

Thank you very much, Paul, and good afternoon. As you said, my name is Ross Hawley. I'm Head of Investor Relations here at Redde Northgate. I'm very pleased to be sitting here in our office in Darlington with Martin Ward, our Chief Executive; and you also have on another screen, Philip Vincent, our Chief Financial Officer, also on the line. So the format we've got for our first investor meet is kind of a mix of a short presentation and introduction to the group, which covers also some of our recent results by Martin and Philip and then we'll then open it up for questions. We've had a number of pre-submitted questions and topics which we'll cover, but also in this format, if you'd like to ask questions, we'll then try and address those when we can. So over to you, Martin, for some comments, and I think we've got some slides just coming up on screen.

Thank you, Ross. Thank you, and good afternoon, everybody. First of all, I thought I'd start with what do we do? So that everyone's got the same understanding. So we're here to keep customers mobile. So you can see this on our website, but here's a sort of a breakdown of some of the services. First of all, we've got rental provision. So the size of our fleet across the U.K., Spain and Ireland is 130,000 vehicles. It's a mixture of cars, vans, it's a broad range of vehicles, and customers can rent these vehicles on flexible terms, either over short periods or longer periods like 3 to 4 years. We provide fleet support. So you think of all these are very large fleets, corporate fleets out in the market. We're there to keep the customers, the users of those vehicles mobile. So we provide services like cameras, telematics, data management, servicing downtime and all the things that you think that could happen with the vehicle. The Redde business, which will come on to talk into detail, we provide claims support and accident management. So if you think about your insurance policies in the U.K., it's a mandatory thing. When you have an accident, whether it's your fault or not, you might go through your insurance company. We sit behind those insurance companies who refer their policyholders to us, and we provide services to get their policyholders back up and mobile. Those services are typically a replacement car either on a like-for-like basis, a courtesy car from one of our body shops or maybe a direct hire, which the insurer pays for it, is covered under the policy. We also sought out the body shop side of things on the repair. So we have our own network of body shops in the U.K. and Spain, where we undertake the full accident repairs ourselves. And then we also have end-of-life vehicle disposal. We have our brands in the U.K. called Van Monster and in Spain, La Coccinelle, which we dispose of our vehicles, both car and van. That's a simple snapshot. If I turn to the next slide, what we describe is that we have a platform. So we provide our services and this platform in very simple terms. If a vehicle is on the road and something happens that is an accident or an incident; tires, glass, service, maintenance repair, breakdown, whatever it is, we can provide that service on our platform. Whether we own that service ourselves or whether we work in partnership or with an independent network to do it, we can triage all the services in a single, single stop service. Some of the brands that you'll see in the market, we've put them on here just to -- these might be things that you might come across. Northgate is a very well-known brand, been in existence over 40 years in the U.K. and Spain for the van rental. ChargedEV, a business that we acquired just 2 years ago that installs charging points, both for commercial and domestic customers. Auxillis is our brand that delivers the accident management services, mainly working with very large insurance companies, dealership and automotive groups. And then FMG and FMGRS is our brands for providing fleet management and the accident services. More recently, we acquired FridgeXpress and Blakedale, which are specialty companies, Blakedale traffic management specialists, workforce protection units and FridgeXpress temperature controlled vehicles. We've got 600 vehicles that we acquired in May this year. So as I said, across the platform, whether it's a product or a service, that is our proposition, keeping people mobile and providing these services. Okay. So that's roughly what we do. If we just then turn to this page just to have a look at the overview of our results. So the businesses came together, Redde and Northgate came together in a merger in 2020. And 3 weeks later, we had COVID and all the lockdowns. So this is our sort of first full year set of results, I can think, that are not tainted by that. And what we can see here is that we have delivered substantial top line growth which has sped through to a near 10% increase in our PBT to GBP 166 million this year. One of the key indicators for an asset-backed business is ROCE. It's not the only measure. But year-on-year, that has been improving. And again, we've had another increase there to over 14%. And then if we look at sort of how that all plays out in terms of returns to our shareholders, Board is very confident on the business. We've seen very strong trading in this set of results and strong trading as we started the new year, and we increased our dividend to 24% for the full year. And then looking at our debt headroom, it's very topical at the minute with interest rates and everything else. We have a strong balance sheet and substantial debt headroom of GBP 290 million, of which we can sort of deploy to support growth in the business. Okay. And then just looking at our achievements for this year. What are the growth drivers for that revenue? Well, firstly, we have talked about a challenging environment for acquiring vehicles. And notwithstanding that, we grew our fleet by over 4,000 vehicles this year, as I said, to over 130,000. We're mainly seeing that growth in Spain, where there's been normalized supply. And in the Redde business, where traffic volumes have gone back to near normal levels, we'll cover that later in the U.K. We've also had new contracts that we announced following the merger. We had GBP 300 million of revenue synergy contracts that were transacted. We said that was Tesco, Saga, that was Admiral, where we would be undertaking those services for a number of years. So we've got a portion of those contracts, which are now all live coming through these numbers. It's around 40% that has come through so far, but they're all live up and running and running to our predicted rate. And also this year, it hasn't started yet, but in autumn, we have signed a contract with one of the U.K.'s largest leasing companies. It's a very large fleet in the U.K., and we're providing a range of services across our platform to that customer. And we talked about margin. We've broadly maintained our margins. Some bits are up, some bits are down. But inflation has been a challenge for most businesses in the U.K., and we've managed that very, very carefully. We've made sure any self-help that we can do through efficiencies in our own operating businesses as well as careful pricing actions with customers where we needed to move that on. We have been successful, as I said, at maintaining our margins, and we have introduced additional services as well. So where we have the cross-sells for our accident management services into Northgate, which is a 50% uplift. And the business I mentioned earlier, ChargedEV, installs charging points. Since our acquisition, we've done 12,000 installations and just under 7,000 in the last 12 months. And then if we look at our strategic progress and how we're delivering on those goals, we had a framework of focus, drive broaden. And then for broaden, we said acquisitions would play an important part in developing our capabilities. Blakedale was a business that we bought just over 12 months ago. And since we bought that business, we've been able to grow the fleet by 30% and grow the customer base by 28%. and then FridgeXpress, as I said, in May this year, with 600 vehicles adding into our capabilities. And when we look at sustainability, it is important. It's an integral part of our strategic goals. We have now targeted our Scope 1 and 2 measures. We've got short-term and long-term targets. And that's something that we're looking forward to deliver. And in terms of our sort of services, what have we added that is new. Well, the example we can give here is that in Spain, we have something called open workshops. So we've been able to service non-Redde and Northgate customers that can bring their vehicles into our workshops where we've got capacity and provide a service, maintenance and repair product to them. We've also seen new relationships form in Spain so we're able to introduce from the U.K., a new insurer relationship to Spain where they would undertake repairs for that insurer that operates in Spain, plus they want a direct contract in Spain from an insurer to undertake repair work as well. And also, our EV products have been progressing. We've partnered with Iberdrola in Spain to come up with a charging point solution, green energy supply and an EV vehicle, all in a monthly cost. And also in the U.K. and Spain, we are consulting with our customers by running open days on EV product so they can get up close and familiar with what products are available and in a non-pressurized environment, work out how an EV fleet would work for them. We've carried out over 1,800 vehicle experiences, and we can map what the customers do with our fleet and how they use the vehicles with exactly how a transition plan for EV would work. So we're pleased with the progress that we've seen to date. Okay. I'm going to hand you over to Philip, who is going to cover some of the financial results in detail.

Thank you, Martin, and good afternoon, everyone. Now I'm going to start by sharing our headline KPIs for the year which just ended, and then I'm going to talk a little bit about how we funded our debt position and how we return cash to our shareholders. So let me start with those headlines. So as Martin said, we had an excellent set of results for the year just ended, with good performance across the businesses. So our underlying revenues, and we define that as revenues that exclude the sales of our vehicles at the end of life. That was GBP 1.3 billion. That was 22% higher than the prior year with growth across the business. And our Redde business grew revenues by GBP 196 million and 40% of this growth came from new contract wins since the merger. Now our headline PBT, one of our core KPIs, was GBP 165.9 million, and that increased GBP 9.7 million year-on-year. Our underlying earnings per share increased 9.5% to 55.6p and our steady state cash generation was strong at GBP 191.5 million and this reflects the cash that we generate before we invest in growth for the business. Our net leverage, which excludes IFRS 16, was 1.5x, and that's right in the middle of our operating range of 1 to 2x. And our return on capital employed increased 20 basis points to 14.1%, and that's benefiting from the underlying profitability within the business and also some disposal profits and we sell vehicles at the end of life. Then if I turn to this slide, the business is very well financed with a strong balance sheet to fund growth. At the year-end, we have GBP 290 million of headroom on our committed facilities. And in the year, we extended our core bank facility by 12 months to 2026. At year-end, 62% of our debt was fixed and the majority of that is at 1.3%, so we are well insulated from the current rate environment. Our average borrowing cost at the year-end was 3.1%. The chart at the bottom, this bridges our net debt as of April last year to April 23 this year. And we generated steady state cash of GBP 256 million, excluding the lease payments. And this is the cash we've generated after having maintained a constant fleet size and before we invest for growth. And after paying tax, interest and the lease payments approximately GBP 130 million of cash, and we returned GBP 105.2 million back to shareholders in the form of dividends and share buyback. And we then invested GBP 122.6 million to grow the fleet in Spain in Redde where we've had very strong demand, and we spent GBP 10 million on acquisitions in the year. So to make these investments, we've increased our borrowings by GBP 112 million. Now on the top right hand of this slide, you can see a chart that shows since the merger, we have now returned GBP 121 million in dividends to shareholders. We've invested GBP 41.5 million acquisitions, thus extending the products and services of our mobility solutions platform, and we've returned a further GBP 60 million to shareholders through the share buyback. We've now completed 6 acquisitions since the merger. During the year, we acquired Blakedale. And just after the year-end, we completed the acquisition of FridgeXpress which extends the range of products and services that we offer and broadens the sectors in which we operate. And finally, our funding enables us to continue to invest in our fleet and execute on acquisitions as they arise in line with our disciplined approach to capital allocation. So now I'm going to hand you back over to Martin.

Thank you, Philip. And then I just want to cover the current environment, so we know what we're sort of looking into. So from a market perspective, what we are seeing is that we've had strong demand and are still seeing strong demand in our geographies. We've seen growing interest in the value-added services that we offer. So we've had more take-up on telematics as an example, and our camera services that we inboard into vehicles. We've also seen that the traffic activity, particularly in the U.K., following the sort of lockdown. There's a new norm. And we look at the Department of Transport for those statistics, and it's indicated between 90% and 95% of traffic volumes back on the road. Our view is it's not going to get back to 100%, certainly not in the short to medium term. Hybrid working, people working from home and returning to offices, that will keep that subdued a bit. So that's what we're working on. That's what we're forecasting. Repair capacity has been scarce, getting trained technicians to get parts being able to undertake rapid sort of key to key time to get vehicles prepared has been problematic. And although the sort of the current trend is that is improving, it is still higher than it was previously. If we then look at sort of fleet supply, we've talked about this extensively. So in the U.K., if we split it between cars and LCV or bands, as you might know it, we've got better visibility on the sort of forward position as we currently sit here today. Cars are not a problem. We can supply cars to meet the demand, but there's not an issue in the U.K. Vans, as I said, has been more problematic. So getting visibility is getting better, short-term supply is still patchy. So that's a bit of a headwind in terms of that sort of sourcing vehicles. In Spain, it is different. Normality sort of returned maybe 6, 7 months ago. So we've been able to get the supply both of cars and vans in Spain. And that has fed, that demand that we've got has been fed. So we've grown the fleet, you'll see in our details. We've grown the fleet in Spain and that demand has continued. We do see pockets of supply, by the way, that come up from time to time. So we might get spot orders on a batch of vans 200, 300 vans that sort of pop up, which makes a little bit sort of trying to plan for these things. That's why it makes it a little bit difficult. We are the biggest buyer of vans in the U.K. and Spain. So when these deals become available, we are a first protocol for many manufacturers. And undersupply has supported residual values. Our view of life was that residual values have peaked and you would expect them to soften both on car and van. You'll see that more in car because there's more supply of car, but on van, they are still -- residual values are still high compared to historical data, although they are softening. The undersupply that occurred in the U.K. from the registrations, you can see that to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. So 200,000 vans that would have sort of -- that was the delta of undersupply. Our view about 18 months ago is that it would take about 4 to 5 years for that undersupply to sort of catch up. And that prediction seems about right. And then on customers, we've got a detailed section in the presentation pack that breaks down the customer profile. But we have a broad range of customers from government, local authorities, blue chip, SME, large corporate fleets. So it's quite a diverse customer base, which is the strength of the business. And that's -- they're similar with the U.K. and Spain. There's more smaller customers in Spain, although the big part of our sector in Spain is the large blue chip companies. We don't have any single sector exposure because of that sort of broad nature of the base. And what we've been able to do is just manage the sectors that we want to supply into. So where there's high-margin sectors, we've been able to rotate our fleet when there are returns into those sectors. There's no slack in the fleet, utilization is running around sort of 92%. That means any vehicles that come back or back out on rent very, very quickly, such is the demand. Okay. And then just sort of finally on an outlook. I've said that we've seen a very robust demand at the start of the new financial year, so we've got 2 months of trading. It has been very, very good. We've seen no let up, lots of investors, lots shareholders ask us, are you seeing any signs because I mean the Northgate business used to be a bellwether. We haven't seen anything. I sort of want to say that there's signs of weakness, and that may be a recession is coming. [indiscernible] is going to happen, maybe it will. But we're not seeing it. We're not seeing it in either -- in any of our businesses. So we've got a healthy pipeline as well in terms of what new prospects we've got. And they are quite substantial as well. If you think about sort of where we deploy our [indiscernible] and where we've seen the growth in these numbers. It's mainly come out of the Redde business, the insurance business because typically, these are large multiyear service contracts, and that's where we're focusing our capital on to growing in that business. We continue to make very good strategic progress. I've seen that in the sort of achievements. We haven't sat still. We've done 6 acquisitions since the merger since 2020. And we're delivering probably more than we said when we brought the businesses together. So the momentum is with us. And I think all of that leads to very sort of strong confidence in terms of what we're seeing and how we're performing. Okay. So that's going to be finished on that.

That's fantastic. Thank you very much, Martin and Philip, indeed for your presentation. [Operator Instructions] Ross, as you can see, if I can hand back to you, we have had a number of questions that have come through, both presubmit and throughout today's presentation. If I may just ask you to read out the question where appropriate to do so, give your response and I'll pick up from the team at the end.

Fantastic. Thank you. So thank you for those questions already submitted. I think really just kicking off in terms of the competitive landscape and how you sort of describe the differentiation of Redde Northgate, do you want to give color around how you see that?

Yes. So look, I mean, the way that services were procured in the markets that we serve for rental, repair, replacement and so forth. They've always been done in verticals. So if you're, for example, a large insurance company, you would go out to the market and you procure best-in-class repair, best-in-class mobility and so on. When we brought the businesses together, we brought a platform together where we said we can put all these services on a platform. We can integrate them. We can give a single source service to the customer because these things don't happen in isolation. They tend to go hand in hand. So what we've seen is we've moved away from competing for single source type business, single vertical type business, where we are very differentiated and very unique in having this platform that can offer all of those services that I've talked about in one go. That is the differentiator. That is unrivaled in terms of what we're doing with that presently, and it does create a lot of leverage. If you think about that platform and if you're a customer going through that journey, there's less handoffs, less touch points, it's more joined up. But for our partners, there's less leakage to get more conversion on the services that you're providing, which is obviously providing a benefit. And you've got less frictional costs because by doing everything on that one platform, it reduces friction across and you're creating a competitive margin. It's creating something that you can share back in value. However, that gets shared back. So when we're out in the market, there are examples where we're just having bilateral discussions with customers or prospects that are coming to us and saying, "we recognize what you have. We like what you have. We'd like to test it. We'd like to product and poke it and make sure that all the things that you say are there," but then having that bilateral discussion rather than sort of playing the game of procuring across all the services. It's not going to be the same for everybody, but that's what we're seeing, and that's creating an advantage for us. And that's fueling some of this top line growth and bottom line growth that we're reporting.

And obviously, in your -- in the presentation, we talked about that recent contract win. Do you sort of see that as sort of a typical odd guidance to the kind of pipeline which we have? Are those customers seeing that overall integrated services being a core attraction?

It is -- I mean it's across all businesses that we're seeing that. I mean clearly, the larger you are, the larger picture you are or if you're a large insurer or a dealership and you've got a lot of volume, the platform makes more sense for you because of all the transactions that you would undertake. And we're seeing, yes, there are some very large prospects that we've got in discussion presently. And I think for the very large ones. For them, it's about, "okay, am I prepared to put all my eggs in one basket and work with a single provider." [indiscernible] very transparent, strong balance sheet, you can control things through SLAs. You can do all of that. So my answer back to the market is, yes, you can. You can manage that. And we've got some large fleets as well. Typically, we like to see a fleet over 2,000 vehicles because that sort of feeds the sort of transaction. All these services that we provide work on that basis. And that's -- the prospect pipeline is made up of a variety of the separate customers.

Thank you. And thank you, David, you wanted just to follow up on this and these contracts. Are these typically ones which are tendered out to the whole market or the ones which you have sort of one-to-one conversations with.

I would say more often than not, you have to go to tender or the customer will go to tender. The one I just described as a bilateral arrangement, which was just great. It has grown up discussion about no one else can provide these services in the same way. But typically, the very large procurers might say, "okay, well, we'd want to go to tender because we want to test commercially. We want to test operationally, we want to test across all these pieces." And then they have a decision to make, do they then go into the verticals and silo all the services that they want or do they put it on one platform? And [indiscernible] sort of take it, we don't have to take it off. We live in a world where if a customer says or a prospect says, "You know what, I'll take 3 or 4 of the services that you've got, but maybe I'll leave these with incumbents or I'm going to test it." That's fine. I mean, we want to see more services because that creates the real competitive sort of position for us and the real sort of service points for the customers.

So we've got a couple of questions on acquisitions. But before we go there, just about that organic growth, am I right in thinking that actually people will then take more services over time? So once we've got a relationship with something and they see the benefit with one, they're likely to add more or grow the proposition?

Yes. No, actually, it's a good point, actually, yes. I mean, from our existing customers from when we came together, we didn't have all of those services with them. They have them out in their verticals. And what we have seen is we've seen that sort of rotation as those contracts have become available been rotating into our platform because they say it makes sense to join up this service. I give an example just to bring you to life. If you have an accident at the side of the road, your typical recovery policy doesn't cover you for recovering an accident damaged vehicle. So we would deploy our sort of network to go and make the recovery of that vehicle. But instead of taking that vehicle, that damaged vehicle to what I call a dark site or a salvage yard or a place where it will just be stored, you can take it directly to one of our body shops where we're preauthorized then to delegate authorities to our engineers to be able to make the repair on the vehicle and provide a replacement vehicle in conjunction with whatever the policyholders are entitled to. So you can see why that's a natural flow and it fits with why you would want to put more into service. So that's going to be a building position organically.

And moving on to a question in terms of the acquisitions, we've announced 6 since the merger. Are there any sort of highlights or ones which you'd like to do and then start to think about are there any gaps or are there other verticals where we're interested in? But maybe first, yes, what you've done today?

No, absolutely. Look, I think Blakedale, I gave that example. That's a good example of a very good business, very well run. We bought it from a family who looked after that business, had a good customer base and a good, unique product as well, which extended our capabilities. Within 12 months, the management team have done a fantastic job in the business there, growing the customer base, growing the fleet, good pollination between the Northgate businesses, the Redde businesses. And I'm really, really encouraged because I think that's how acquisitions should work. You can bring value to the table. So that will grow on strength to strength. FridgeXpress relatively new, but a good prospect pipeline with blue chip companies and pharmaceutical and food and we've got the capabilities and the balance sheet to further strengthen that. Not all acquisitions will go day 1 earnings enhancing, those acquisitions. Sometimes we do buy things where we need to invest. ChargedEV was a good example of that. The momentum to get charging points in for electric vehicles needs to grow, needs to do more in the U.K. and in Spain. But having a business with our capability, tying it in with a package of services then that we offer was key to our strategic progress. And as I said, we've installed 12,000 charging points since we've owned the business. But we've had to invest in that business. We've had to put more money in to get the right national network of installers, invest to get the operational structure match fit for the size of the business that we intend that to be. So for me, that we've invested in the business. It doesn't -- as I said, it doesn't mean EBITDA enhanced in day 1, but that's sort of a good business to have and a growing trend and having that capability very worthwhile.

Yes. And FMGRS obviously was bought out of administration, has been sometimes to sort of described as a bit of the glue, which has connected some of the services together. How do you see that business at the moment?

Absolutely. I think FMGRS or Nationwide, it was called when it was a listed business before it was listed as private equity. Yes, got into difficulty during COVID and went into administration, and we were able to bring 2,300 people across into the business, over 70 body shops at the time. And when we acquired that business, we've invested heavily in that business in terms of tooling in the body shops, the sites themselves where we can improve it or rotate into some newer premises, investing in the team, scales. We have our own accredited training academy, where we can train our technicians on the latest techniques as well as trading people and our technicians through how to work on EV vehicles. So yes, I do describe it as the glue because if you think again, all those things that happen, repairing vehicles is an important part of that whole process of keeping people mobile and owning that capacity, have been able to control that capacity and therefore, control the flow, is a really good asset to have. Bear in mind as well, the volume of work that we have far exceeds what we can digest with our own body shop network. So we do have an independent body shop network as well, where we place that work in there, making a combination of work from our portfolio. So -- but that has been a fantastic acquisition for us in terms of having that capability.

Okay. And just so [ Colin ] was saying, are there other verticals which around internationally? Is it U.K.-focused or are there opportunities elsewhere that we might look at?

I think there's opportunities across our geographies that we work on and beyond. So when we look at Spain, for example, they've had a fantastic year this year in terms of their growth. Spain has got the capability to go further. They have the open workshops, which is growing in revenues. As I said, you can -- non-Redde customer, you can book your vehicle and you can schedule out. We've got a B2C proposition in Spain, which is all digital. So again, if there's any capacity in the fleet for people who need sort of rental over 3, 6 months, we can provide that as well. And also Spain, Mainland Europe, I don't need to do a geography lesson, but there are opportunities to develop beyond the boundaries there. And if our return on capital is good, we can see those opportunities further progressing. And in the U.K., we see a lot of things across our desk. I mean smaller operators might have found it difficult to operate in rental markets, for example, where getting a hold of fleet is going be problematic for them. So we have seen things across our desk. We're very selective about what we want to do. It's not just scale for scale's sake. We like new capability that adds in because we can cross-sell, and there might be other things that we do. We're not going to be all things to all people. I don't think. Windscreen is a good example. Autoglass do a very good job with Windscreen. It's a small part of what we do, we can partner where we want to partner and that sort of works well.

So just moving over to Philip to just carry on this part of the conversation. I can see there's some interest in margins as well. But just in terms of how you think about making those investment decisions, whether it's M&A or otherwise, maybe just want to talk to that and some of the capital allocation priorities, which...

Yes. I mean, Ross, we operate a capital allocation model, which we apply rigidly actually when we're looking at investment opportunities. So the first step we go through is we want to invest organically in the business, and that means we want to maintain the business and where it is before we're trying to grow it. So replacing vehicles when we need to replace them maintaining our branches and our sites. Secondly, we want to make sure we are paying a growing and sustainable dividend to our shareholders under a dividend policy, where we aim to pay at around 2x cover. And then we look to say, okay, where can we invest and we can invest in growth in terms of CapEx, in terms of our vehicles to grow our fleet to meet demand and growing our products and services in our customer base. We also do mergers and acquisitions, of which we've done the sixth since the merger back in 2020. And then once we've gone through all of that, we'll then say, "Okay, there are other ways we could provide cash back to the shareholders and we have more cash to do so." An example of that would have been the share buyback. But whenever we're looking at investment opportunities, we're making sure that each of them is generating an adequate return. And we define an adequate return as a return that's above our weighted average cost of capital. So we're creating value for the long term for our shareholders.

And in terms of thinking about the debt, we've got a question, [ Kevin ], just in terms of sort of that headroom and is it there because we might get a -- I think it's a lumpy offer of vans. One of our attractions, I think, is we've got that financial firepower for it. How do you think about debt and the use of that for vehicle acquisition?

Yes, obviously, we follow that allocation model. But yes, I mean, we've got GBP 290 million of headroom on our committed facility. So we have other facilities as well through things like contractor, which aren't committed. But committed is GBP 290 million. How do I think about that. Well, we don't want to be going back on refinancing in the market every single year. The last refinancing we did was back about 18 months ago when we raised about GBP 330 million of private placement, borrowings. It's actually in euros, about GBP 330 million equivalent in sterling. And that goes -- and that was for 10 years or between 6, 8 and 10 years. So the first one of those doesn't roll over until November '27. So we don't have a waterfall moment. We've laid it out over several years. And we're paying an average rate of 1.3% on that. So we're looking at when is the best time to refinance making sure we're not up against it with the banks with a short time when we have to refinance, we have plenty of time to do so. And then separately, we have an RCF facility of GBP 475 million. And we just extended that by another year. So that will roll over again in November '26. So we're constantly looking when is the right time to refinance and not trying to do it all in one go.