1&1 AG (1U1) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Interpreted] Hello and welcome, ladies and gentlemen. On behalf of the Board of 1&1 AG, I would like to warmly welcome you to our semiannual conference. In this context, our Board members, Mr. Dommermuth and Mr. D'Avis, will speak about the figures for the first half of the year, and we'll be happy to take your questions after the presentations as usual. Thank you very much. And I'll give the floor to Mr. Dommermuth now.

[Interpreted] Well, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Let me present the figures of the first half of the year and the status of the development of the 1&1 Mobile network. And after that, Mr. D'Avis will present the figures of the first half of the year to you. We are active in the field of broadband connections and mobile connections. At the end of the first half of the year, we had 3.89 million broadband connections. We have fiber optic connections and VDSL and FTTH complete. And we use 1&1 Versatel as its own transport network, combining it with the local networks of Deutsche Telekom or regional carriers such as Deutsche Glasfaser, M-Net, NetCologne, OXG, Westconnect, et cetera. We have an excellent network quality. We have once again been won an IMTEST competition that is the test performed by Connect with a rating of 1.3. We won the national competition, but also the regional competition. In the past, we were the best on -- ever again, we were the best nationwide, but there were individual regional suppliers that were better. Now we're the best regional as well. Customer satisfaction was also rated as us being the best by IMTEST again. So we're the best supplier in terms of customer satisfaction for private customers for Internet connections. We also won the competition for mobile phone connections. The customers surveyed elected us as the best. We have a total of 12.44 million mobile contracts in the group. We are operating the first Open RAN network in Europe, fully virtualized. We have a primary brand 1&1. Then we have co-branding with GMX and WEB.DE and our discount brands, yourfone, smartmobil, winSIM, et cetera. The customer contracts decreased a little bit over the first half of the year, 60,000 fewer contracts from the mobile Internet with the broadband lines. We have as many as -- sorry, with the mobile Internet, we have the same number, 12.44 million. We decreased a bit with the broadband lines. We have been migrating to 1&1. We're losing some customers in the context of this migration because they say, "Oh, I don't use them anymore or they say you have a roaming partner, say, Vodafone, and I live in an area where Vodafone has a poor coverage and so I have a poor connection now, and that's why I don't want to retain this contract. And this is why our growth is offset by the losses from this migration so that the number of contracts is unchanged. In the third and fourth quarters, we will return to having a little bit of growth again. We have, by and large, concluded the migration, about 2 million customers still have to be migrated, but you would see that in -- reflected in an increase in the number of contracts again. We're not happy with the revenue. It's a little bit less than last year. We are preparing our cooperation with Deutsche Glasfaser. It will take a few months before our grids are connected. And if we can't provide individual points during some period of time, then, of course, we won't be able to retain customers, but this is why we believe that we can turn this around. It continues to be a difficult business, and we still don't want to reduce our prices to buy back market share. Turnover development is a little bit better than it used to be, 0.1% more with service revenue where we have high margins then we have long-term mobile phone contracts that usually amortize over 24 months, but we don't have a margin there. Then EBITDA down by segment. We normally report about the different segments. First of all, Access and then the ramp-up costs in the mobile network. The operating EBITDA in Access is EUR 414.5 million. We have 2 special effects that lead to the decrease compared to last year. The service revenue was unchanged, as you remember. First of all, we have losses incurred by changing from the partner Telefónica to Vodafone because there were components that were activated with the contract with Telefónica. We don't have that with Vodafone. So if you compare this on an annual basis, we have identical service revenue, but we have a lower EBITDA. Also, the roaming costs were different than expected. We had made other assumptions concerning the Vodafone network expansion. We buy capacities that are in line with the overall network. And if the network grows more slowly than expected, then we have to buy more of these percentage shares than expected in order to provide the service to our customers. And in the mobile network, we have ramp-up costs that are higher than last year. Then CapEx, we are still investing into server rights and frequency transmission masts. Let's speak about the mobile network. We have 4 core data centers. We have 24 decentralized edge data centers in the final stage of ramp-up. We have 281 regional Far Edge data centers. The final target is 500. So we still have some ways to go there. And we had more than 1,200 active masts in operation as per June 2025, more than 4,000 are being developed. What does that mean? We have to sign lease contracts, then build the masts. Sometimes we also have the mast already in place. Maybe the antenna is on top already. Maybe we need to connect it to the fiber optic network or the fiber optic network may be there already, but it may not be connected to a fiber optic hub yet. So that is a bit of a head wave that we're pushing ahead of us. How we differentiate our network from traditional networks? Well, we have an open system, Open RAN network. We don't cooperate with ZTE. We use standard servers and standardized interfaces. The network is a cloud that runs in data centers on standardized servers, and we control the software there. We have gigabit antennas in every site. We always have a fiber optic connection, never a long connection. There must only be a maximum of 10 kilometers of fiber optic cable in order to have no latencies. Also, data processing on site is possible in the data centers so that we can have real-time connections. We have a pretty efficient network. We need 10% to 30% less power than comparable networks. We have 3,200 employees in our different locations across Germany. And we have an ecosystem with more than 100 partners. I said it before, we cooperate with partners with -- for provision of antennas, but we have no dominant supplier who imposes their standard. About 50% of our suppliers come from Germany, 40% come from the rest of Europe, 10% from the rest of the world, but none from China. We were able to continue our migration in the first half of 2025. We have now more than 10 million customers in our network. I said that we will conclude the migration in the next month, and all of our customers will be running on our network. We won't have to have any indirect customer relations anymore. There was a press release by the Cartel Office with our dealings with Vantage Towers that have been going on for 2 years. The Cartel Office said that they consider the delay in the provision of antenna sites as an abusive restriction of competition. Vantage Towers can now take -- make a statement to counter this statement as well, but we expect the final assessment at the end of this summer. Then the Federal Network Agency extends the frequencies until 2031 and they are actually extending it beyond '31, to the end of '31 or with Telefónica a little bit longer even. And the Federal Network Agency said that 1&1 needs to be taken into consideration. So the 3 suppliers have to make frequencies available to us. So Telefónica must continue making available the 2x10 megahertz for us. So that was a requirement that Telefónica had to make the frequencies available. And this requirement is to be extended by 5 years. And Deutsche Telekom, Vodafone and Telefónica were charged with making at least 2x5 megahertz low band available for shared use. We need to negotiate that now. I hope that we managed to do that quickly and that will then have a good situation in order to continue extending the network, so much on the status of the network, and my colleague, D'Avis will go through the figures now with you in detail.

[Interpreted] Thank you, Mr. Dommermuth. Also, I'd like to welcome you here. And I would like to introduce you to the figures of the first half of the year of '25 and give you a perspective on the expectations on the second half of the year. And I'd like to start with the revenues. The revenue amounted to EUR 2.006 billion in the first half compared to EUR 2.015 billion in the first half of '24, which is a minus of 0.5%. The high-margin service revenue rose by 0.1% to EUR 1.647 billion. And while the low-margin hardware revenue declined by 3% to EUR 359 million. The development of the hardware revenue increased to EUR [ 1.16 million ] and the result, therefore, dropped from EUR [ 117 million ] to EUR [ 649 ] million, which is a drop of 12%. The gross profit fell from EUR 557 million (sic) [ EUR 716 million ] to EUR 694 million, which is a minus of 3%. And this mainly drops from the input costs to the landline segment, which is due to the Vodafone development and the change of the national roaming from Telefónica to Vodafone, which is EBIT neutral. The gross profit in the mobile network, due to the increase in depreciation and the migration of the existing customers to the 1&1 net was at minus EUR 204 million compared to minus EUR 149 million (sic) [ minus EUR 159 million ] in the first half of 2024. The sales costs (sic) [ distribution costs ] in the first half of the year dropped to minus EUR 272 million, which is an increase of 3.6%. This is mainly due to the intensified marketing of our unlimited tariffs in the first half of 2025. The administration expenses were slightly higher in '25 of -- slightly higher than the last year of minus EUR 57.5 million. The balance of other income and expenses, EUR 28.7 million (sic) [ EUR 20.8 million ] was up from EUR 18.7 million. This is mainly attributable to the improved results from the collection and debt recovery processes and the losses on receivables and contract assets rose slightly from minus EUR 59.4 million in the first half of '24 to minus EUR 61.6 million in the first half of '25. The operating profit -- EBIT was, therefore, EUR 118.1 million in the first half of '25 compared to EUR 196.1 million in the first half of '24, the decline. The financial result was a minus of EUR 10.9 million, down from EUR 0.4 million, and this resulted in EUR [ 3.8 ] million of interest paid, and this is mainly from the use of free liquidity at United Internet and decreased by EUR [ 2.2 ] million due to lower interest rates. The earnings before taxes, therefore, were at EUR 107.2 million compared to EUR 196 million in the first half of 2024. Consequently, tax expenses reduced to minus EUR 32.6 million in '25. In '24, this was minus EUR 60.1 million. And this means in the first half '25, we have a consolidated net income of EUR 74.6 million compared to EUR 136.4 million in the first half of 2024. And following, I'd like to look at the balance sheet. The total asset rose from EUR 8.1 billion at the end of '24 to EUR 8.49 billion at the end of the midterm in '25, the increase mainly is attributable to the following effects. Current assets amounted to EUR 1.844 billion at the end of the year, rising by EUR 339 million, and this increase was driven by receivables from related companies in the frame of the cash management, these rose by EUR [ 155.1 ] million. This is mainly attributable to the client loss in hardware sales or drop in hardware sales by EUR [ 52.5 ] million and the nonasset -- noncurrent assets rose to EUR 6.307 billion in '25. This is mainly due to the increase in property, plant and equipment and the short-term liabilities increased to EUR 752 million. And the decrease of liabilities to related companies and the increase of other short-term nonfinancial liabilities is mainly due to the recognition of our sales tax liabilities until the end of December '24, 1&1 was part of the United Internet VAT Group. And that means this was shown there. Since January '25, 1&1 is no longer part of that and this means the financial liabilities are assigned to the other noncurrent -- nonfinancial liabilities. The increase of other current liabilities is mainly due to the current installments for the frequency costs acquired by the auction in 2019. The first installment of the 2 gigahertz frequency is due in January '26, and that increases the current proportion of the frequency liabilities. The long-term liabilities rose from EUR 1.603 billion (sic) [ EUR 1.305 billion ] to EUR 1.577 billion, which is mainly due to the loan taken out for investments from the 1&1 -- for 1&1 and the decline in the long-term financial liabilities is due to the lower term portion in the frequency liability offset. This was due to an increase in lease liabilities for further expansion. The equity rose due to the positive result from EUR 6.094 billion to EUR 6.16 billion. Now looking at the cash flow. The net payment amounted EUR 229.5 million in the first half of '25 compared to a minus of EUR 24.5 million in the first half of '24. The positive change of the operating cash flow is mainly due to the advanced payments and the quarter agreement with Deutsche Telekom, which amounted to EUR [ 260 ] million nearly in '24 and which will no longer have to be made in '25. Other changes were the decline in consolidated net income by EUR [ 61.8 ] million, of which EUR [ 35.3 ] million is attributable to noncash depreciations, resulting in a cash flow of EUR 246.1 million. The operative cash flow in the first half of the year also includes, in particular, minus EUR 27.6 million from changes in trade receivables and other assets, a minus of EUR 46.8 million from changes in receivables and liabilities to related companies and a plus of EUR 50.7 million from the changes in other liabilities. These 2 changes result in particular, from the change in the VAT Group, minus EUR 42.3 million from the change in trade payables and plus EUR 49.5 million in the change of contract assets. The cash flow from investing activities amounted to a minus of EUR 478.9 million in the first half compared to EUR 69.5 million in '24. This breaks down to a cash CapEx of minus EUR 118 million in '25, mainly from investments to the 1&1 Mobile Network, minus EUR 4 million from the acquisition of A1 Marketing, Communication and New Media GmbH Limited that is, minus EUR 360 million from the investments of free cash and cash equivalents from United Internet, plus EUR 3.1 million in interest payments from the investment in United Internet. The cash flow from financing activities amounted to EUR 250.2 million in the first half of '25 compared to minus EUR 45.4 million in the previous year. This sets up by a minus EUR 10.5 million from repayment of lease liabilities, minus EUR 8.8 million from dividend payments, minus EUR 5.8 million by other interest-related payments, plus EUR 290 million from the loans and minus EUR 14.7 million by the interest payments. And this leads to a generated free cash flow of EUR 111.5 million, a great plus in '25 compared to minus EUR 58.5 million in '24. Now let's look at the bridge between EBITDA and the free cash flow, which I'd like to present now. We are starting at an EBITDA of EUR 283.9 million. This was offset by an increase in receivable and other assets of minus EUR 27.6 million. The increase of contract assets, a plus of EUR 49.5 million. The change of receivables and liabilities to related companies amounted to minus EUR 46.8 million. The decrease in trade payments had an impact of minus EUR 42.3 million. The increase of other liabilities contributed EUR 50.7 million to the result. The working capital changed by minus EUR 10.5 million. Tax expenses amounted to minus EUR 27.4 million. Capital expenditures amounted to minus EUR 118 million, and this results in a total free cash flow of EUR 111.5 million. Looking at the forecast for the business year of fiscal year 2025. With a stable contract base, the service revenue is going to end up -- should end up at the last year's levels of EUR 3.3 billion. With EBITDA, we expect 7.7% to approximately EUR 545 million. And for the Access operating segment, we expect the EBITDA decline to approximately EUR 810 million after EUR 856.1 million in '24. The decline mainly results from higher than planned costs for national roaming, the lower growth of the network, and minus EUR 20 million from direct payments to be made by changing the roaming provider. The EBITDA in the 1&1 Mobile Network will be constant or remain at minus EUR 265 million. This also has migration costs and which will be over when all the customers have migrated. The investment volume, cash CapEx is expected to amount to approximately EUR 450 million, mainly driven by the network expansion. Thank you for your attention, and we will be happy to take your questions now.

[Interpreted] We have 2 colleagues here for the questions who will be taking microphones to your seats on either side of the room. We'll start at the front left from our point of view in the third row, the representative of New Street, Mr. Rickett.

I'm Ben Rickett from New Street Research. I have 2 questions, please. Firstly, can we get your latest thoughts on mobile consolidation in the German market? And specifically, whether you think the regulatory environment has become more favorable for mobile consolidation and whether you are interested in participating in mobile consolidation? And second question just on your EBITDA phasing. So EBITDA stepped down in Q2 to EUR 192 million, I think, because of the higher Vodafone costs. But the guidance implies that, that now improves in the second half. So could you just help us understand what drives that improvement?

[Interpreted] Yes. Thank you very much. Let me start with a question concerning consolidation in the mobile phone market and our thoughts about this. I can read about this in the newspapers that competitors of ours say that it will be nice if we could consolidate the market further and if we had European champions, but I do believe we have European champions. We have companies that are active in several European countries. Deutsche Telekom, for instance, is active in, I believe, 10 European countries, just sold its business in the Netherlands, but they could have retained it and they could buy additional business in different countries. So there's no reason why they couldn't consolidate across borders as free shows it, they're expanding internationally. When you consider reducing the number of suppliers from 4 to 3, then I can't really estimate what the regulatory environment to that is as far as I know, the idea is still to retain at least 4 suppliers in every country, but I don't know if that is true. And I know that this is being told for years now that 3 suppliers earn more than 4 and then you can consolidate the market and the money that we earn. Additionally, we can invest it in AI. That sounds good, but I don't know whether this will happen. You also asked whether we are interested in consolidation. And I don't think we're currently capable of participating in any consolidation beyond Germany. We have to do our homework in Germany first. And maybe this may come to pass at some stage, but it's not on the agenda now for us to participate or play a role in European consolidation.

[Interpreted] Well, concerning your question concerning the EBITDA phasing, in the second half of the year, the EBITDA in Access segment will be below the first half of the year. It will not increase. It will actually be weaker than in the first half of the year, which is, of course, due to the fact that we have higher cost with Vodafone due to the slower network growth. On the other hand, we're consistently improving our cost structure. And of course, we looked at where we can make savings, and we're quite optimistic that we will be able to do that in the second half of the year as well. But as I said, the second half of the year will be a bit weaker in terms of the EBITDA than the first half of the year.

Sorry, can I just follow up on the second. Were there any specific one-off costs in Q2, though? Because Q2 specifically was very weak.

[Interpreted] No, there were no special effects in the second quarter. The additional cost from Vodafone from the slower network growth have a bigger impact, of course, as the number of customers on the Vodafone network increases. And as we're migrating our customers to the Vodafone network, we've had more of this effect compacted into the second half -- the second quarter than in the first.

[Interpreted] I have 2 questions concerning the low band frequencies. When do you expect any effects? And what EBITDA effect do you expect because you will have to make a payment? Will that have -- immediately have a positive effect on the EBITDA or a negative one initially? And second question, you have a credit line of EUR 290 million. Why did you take out this loan? And where did you take it out with UI or with the bank?

[Interpreted] Well, let me start with the low-band frequencies. I can't tell you when we will have agreement there. We still don't have an offer yet. Our competitors haven't made it yet. You know the business. These 3 will try to postpone this as long as they can to have a lot of questions. The offers will be completely unacceptable initially. So it depends how early and how forcefully the Federal Network Agency will intervene here. That will have an impact on the speed of our agreement. So we can't really predict that. You would really have to ask the federal network agency because they dominate this procedure. Now you also asked what will be the impact on our EBITDA. It will have a positive impact because we have the infrastructure in place with the servers, the fiber optic network, the software, we have the low-band antennas installed on the masts already. So the moment we get the frequencies, the individual masts can produce more gigabytes because they can use low band as well. And these additional gigabytes, particularly after all the infrastructure has been paid off already are cheaper than the gigabytes that we buy via national roaming today. And the more antennas we build, the bigger the savings will be, of course. So that is correct.

[Interpreted] Concerning your question regarding the EUR 290 million credit line that we took out, the credit line was made available by United Internet who have a contract with JBIC, which is a Japanese bank, which is owned by the government. So this credit line is purpose committed to the expansion of the network. So this is what we're planning to do with it. Right now, we don't need this credit line yet, but we need some flexibility. And so it was important or a good opportunity for us. Maybe I can add to this for those who are not familiar with that, the JBIC is comparable to the German KfW bank and the credit lines are very inexpensive.

[Interpreted] I have a follow-up question on low band. I know it's very difficult to say something about the time line. But I seem to remember that the Federal Network Agency said in their decision that they will intervene no later than the end of 2025. Now how fast that will lead to an agreement, but is that correct?

[Interpreted] Yes, it will start even before that. The Federal Network Agency has developed a questionnaire now and every supplier has to -- every provider has to fill in this questionnaire now. And so now that nothing has happened, the Federal Network Agency has introduced some reporting so that they can see more clearly what are the individual steps being taken, who is doing what. When they will actually intervene actively, whether it will become necessary in the first place is something that will have to transpire going forward. But it's correct that by the end of the year, the frequencies have to be made available to us.

[Interpreted] We would like to take more questions, if you have any. Mr. Glaser, MPPM, on the right side, please.

[Interpreted] Volker Glaser, MPPM. I have a question on Vantage Tower and the Federal Cartel Office. If things remain as you indicated, what does it mean in monetary terms? Or what is your expectation? What you can negotiate -- what result can you negotiate based on the current situation?

[Interpreted] Well, of course, I can't predict the Cartel Office's decision. I can tell you what we would like to see. Vantage Towers have an obligation and they have to meet it. And that's our expectation as fast as possible. That's our interest in this that we've been pursuing since the get-go, we don't want to get any cash. We want to get the transmission towers. And that's where we're going. So if Vantage Towers have promised anything that they can't provide anymore because they've used mast for Vodafone already, they're welcome to substitute them by, for instance, building new sites, new towers, new masts in order to provide what they promised. That's my interpretation of the contract. So there is a commitment that they made. And if they can't meet their commitment because individual sites have been blocked already by Vodafone, well, then just build another one. That's no difference in quality for us. So that is the one thing, get those sites and get them quick. And the second thing is, of course, that we have claims to compensation because Vantage indicated many sites for us. We built the fiber optic cables, and we never got the sites. So we have a situation where we had high investments that were incorrectly allocated. We just put them in place, and they're not good. So we want to get compensation for that. And then, of course, we had to buy roaming for many years rather than being able to provide services with our own infrastructure. So all of this is secondary. But the first thing now is to get the sites as soon as possible. And to make this clear, Vantage is continuously delivering sites, but much fewer than contractually agreed.

[Interpreted] But right now, you're on track that it's going faster, right?

[Interpreted] No, it isn't.

[Interpreted] So what would be the sum for the compensation that you're looking at?

[Interpreted] I can't tell you, I haven't calculated yet. One thing after the other. First, we need a clear decision by the Federal Cartel Office and our focus is on getting our masts as soon as possible, and then we will calculate how big the damage was.

Mollie Witcombe, Goldman Sachs.

A couple of questions, please. Firstly, I was wondering, could you give us some more color on the build and your confidence in hitting 25% coverage by the end of the year? What sort of form do you think that might take? You've said that there were 1,200 active sites, I think. I'm just wondering how many were built but not active so far? And are you still committed to building out the network beyond that point? And my other question is a bit of a technical question, sorry. Apologies if I missed the explanation. Why was -- what motivated the change in the VAT group? I'm just wondering what the cause of that was.

[Interpreted] The speed, the pace of the network build after 25%. I understood that correct, but I wasn't able to understand the second question. Can you kindly repeat?

Yes. The VAT group, the tax group. I don't know the translation was...

Okay. We explained what we call in German [Foreign Language]. [Interpreted] Okay. I'll try it. Sorry for my English not being enough that I haven't got your question 100%. If I'm not clear, please ask again. So I understood your question, how many antennas are active? It's over 1,200. We are carrying on building new ones and increasing the speed by which we build. The question was, are you going to get the 25% coverage, if I understood you correctly. We have an obligation to cover 25% of the households to the end of the year. And there is a measuring equipment or measuring applied by the Bundesnetzagentur, which all others do, and they have to adhere to it as well. And we do assume that 1st of January '26, we will be able to deliver this 25%. Maybe we have to differentiate between what do we have to build for a really good coverage, high-performance networks, high speeds in the area and into the households and what do we have to build to provide the minimum supply. And I think that is a difference. It is a difference. And if you build the network with the capacities like we are thinking of, you will need more antennas than you would need if you just fulfill the minimum obligations.

Sorry, you said 1,200 active, but I'm just wondering how many do you have that are built but not active yet.

[Interpreted] Currently, we have built, I think, 3,500. And out of these, we have about 1,200 in operation and the others are waiting for the optic fiber and the Far Edge computer centers and so on. But beyond that, of course, we carry on building every day. We are opening new sites with new antennas. As I've just said, we are developing currently about 4,500. So in total, we have 4,500 plus the ones that we already have up and running. So it's about 5,800, which are either active in the net or which are -- haven't built and not connected or where we only have a contract as yet.

[Interpreted] [indiscernible] member of the Board with 1&1, member of the Board with United Internet. So 2/3, that means we were economically integrated kind of now since Markus has left 1&1 and is responsible member of the Board for United Internet only, we are not integrated. Of course, we are integrated, but the measurement is only 1/3, and that has caused the changes in brief. We can discuss this later. I give you the rules and the framework, but I think [indiscernible] already has introduced something of this. Thank you very much. In the case we have no other question with the last -- okay, Stippig from Warburg Research.

[Interpreted] A question on my behalf. If you have the migration completed by the end of the year and then have the 25% coverage, what would you expect in quantities in savings on your own net?

[Interpreted] Well, that depends on the frequency equipments that we have. If we have the low bands, the savings are bigger than if we don't have them. And the savings also depend on the reciprocal handing over in the roaming. Today, we have the handover in one direction only. That means if a customer gets -- moves out of a cell that we cover. He moves to Vodafone, but he doesn't move back. That is going to change. So the customer, when he moves on to an [indiscernible] cell, he will automatically roam back to us. That's going to increase the traffic. And in parallel, the amount of antennas that we are building, but we are not publishing precise figures there because that depends on the handover directions, the speeds of the antennas, all the antennas are different. We have antennas in high-traffic regions and antennas in low-traffic regions. So if the high-traffic antennas are finished quicker than the low-traffic antennas are, we have bigger savings. So that's why we are not publishing the figures as yet. But what we're going to see next year in the mobile segment, we see major cost savings because the migrations will be over, and we will save the upfront payments in the international roaming, which we can buy if the customers are in our own net, and we don't have to buy it from Telefonica, which is much more expensive. And I have said already that will end up in savings of about EUR 100 million.

[Interpreted] Thank you, Mr. Stippig, and thank you to the audience. Maybe Mr. Glaser for a final question.

[Interpreted] Yes. It's quick. If you say you can save EUR 100 million, so consensus for next year's EBITDA is EUR 670 million. That's going the right way and CapEx. Maybe your take on that.

[Interpreted] Well, we haven't got a plan for next year as yet and have not discussed it with the Supervisory Board as yet. Of course, EUR 670 million EBITDA is no problem. We just have to save some marketing money or if we show more in the plan, we have to spend more marketing money to get us there. I can't give you the plan for next year as yet. But maybe in a nutshell, we want to grow on the customer base in parallel, generate more service revenue and with that more profit. And at the same time, our net should be more efficient. We think that next year -- this year, we're going to have a peak on the EBITDA side, and it's going to be better than that next year. And then quite soon, as far as the net is concerned, we will move into a positive EBITDA. But the net has depreciations as well. So we don't have to look at the EBITDA only, but we have to take some more time for it. It's going to take a few years. And for all shareholders, it's important -- more important is what the cash is. And the cash will take even more longer, even longer in years. So we're going to see that we turn EBITDA positive, then the EBIT will turn positive. And again, a few years later, the cash side. That's the net side. And the Access business, we expect a moderate growth with customers, with service revenue and in the results. But the plan is going to be done at the end of the year, and then we'll have to look at the market situation. You all know that the market is under pressure. Telefonica reduced prices a couple of months ago quite strongly, and that means that everybody has to think now on how to handle that, how far to accompany it, how far not. These are questions that we are putting to ourselves on if we want to take losses or not if subscribers being moving away.

[Interpreted] Okay. The final, final question, we'll have to take -- give the floor to our parent company.

[Interpreted] Yes, I'm happy to. Mr. [indiscernible]. Now do we still have the chance for the next 2 to 3 years to observe the situation as 1&1 investors or shareholders? Or is this only possible via United Internet in 3 years' time now. So the basic question is -- what about the revision in a first step, it was a clear signal that you believe in the network and that you have expanded it. But for us, as shareholders, a question, can we follow up on that in a direct communication to 1&1 or with United Internet?

[Interpreted] Well, we can only give you today's view because a few years from now, things can be different. But I can tell you how we see the world today. At the end of the day, you will decide this. So what was the situation we were offered several large packages. We took them over. And then we said, okay, our share didn't develop too favorably over the last few time periods. If there are requests to let go some of those packages and let's do that in order to -- for the share to recover. So let's make sure that we have enough free flow so that the share is actually being traded. And that's the way I see the world today, and the same goes for my colleagues. So that's why it depends on you. If we're offered further packages at a reasonable price, then I would acquire them as United Internet. If they are not offered to us, then I wouldn't buy them. I wouldn't try to acquire them via the stock exchange. We don't have a target -- dedicated target that we can say, okay, we want to have a squeeze to do a squeeze out or something, then we would have made a different offer. What this is about is to take out any overhang, and we will have to see how things pan out from here.

[Interpreted] So let me conclude this event. Thank you very much for your questions. And as always, we're happy to answer follow-up questions in person. We will continue with a presentation by United Internet by our mother -- parent company after a short break. Thank you very much.