Afry AB (AFRY) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and a warm welcome. My name is Linda Palsson. I'm the CEO of Afry, and I will present our Q2 results together with our CFO, Bo Sandstrom. Starting off with a summary of the second quarter, our work with the ongoing strategy review progressed according to plan. Our efforts during the quarter focused on implementing our new group structure, which has included a comprehensive restructuring of the organization as we are taking steps now to improve efficiency. We will continue to our work on optimizing the portfolio and addressing our cost base in the coming 12 months, which we will come back to a bit later in this presentation. At the same time, as we are laying the foundation for profitable growth, we are navigating a challenging market. We see that market remains cautious due to the current uncertainty in the global economic environment. And while the pattern varies across segments and regions, this uncertainty is broadly affecting client decisions and investments. We also had a weak calendar in Q2, and this reflects in our results for the quarter as well. Our net sales declined compared to last year and was in addition to the weak calendar also impacted by a significant currency effect that had a negative impact on the growth. And while we had a total growth of minus 7.2%, the organic growth adjusted for the calendar effect was minus 2.5%. Our EBITA margin was also impacted by these effects, but we delivered an EBITA margin, excluding items affecting comparability of 6.6%, which actually was in line with the calendar adjusted margin last year. And despite facing challenging market conditions in some segments, I am pleased that we continue to grow our order backlog, which increased both sequentially as well as year-over-year. That is very important to us and underscores our strong and competitive position in the market. And taking a closer look at the market, uncertainty remains in some Industrial segments. On the other hand, the defense segment continues to be very strong, and we see a high demand for our services in this area. The pulp & paper segment has been challenging for quite a while now, and demand is still low for new investment projects in this area. We are, however, seeing some signs of increased market activity, especially in Latin America. In the Energy sector, the demand is still strong across the segments. The interest around nuclear is steadily growing and countries are evaluating long-term energy solutions and new technologies. This provides opportunities for us as we have a very strong expertise and position in the nuclear sector. What we see in the Energy sector overall is that long-term demand remains high, but there are differences and variations across energy sources and regions over time. For instance, in solar and wind power, we experienced these regional differences, where the demand is currently very high in Asia, but more modest in Europe and the Nordics. And finally, in the Infrastructure sector, the demand is stable in transport infrastructure. And there, we also see initiatives for increased resilience that are driving long-term trends and demand. The real estate sector has been weak for a while now and remains so in this quarter as well. We're going into the divisional performance. Infrastructure division was impacted both by currency and calendar effects in this quarter. Despite these effects, the underlying EBITA margin improved as they continue to work to increase their efficiency. Industrial & Digital Solutions experienced a challenging market in some segments and working actively to adjust its capacity. They were also impacted by negative calendar effects in this quarter, which pressured profitability further. In the Process Industry division, sales declined slightly, mainly impacted by the low demand in investment projects for pulp & paper. But despite this, they delivered an EBITA margin of 10% in the quarter with successful project closings that contribute to the profitability. The Energy division continued its solid performance on both sales and margin with high activity in several segments. In Management Consulting, the high demand for Energy and Sustainability Consulting was not able to fully compensate for the continued weak demand in bioindustry, which impacted the sales in this quarter. And as you know, this is the final quarter we will report the results in this structure. And from Q3, we will report in our 3 new global divisions. As we now are working through a reorganization and defining a new strategic direction for Afry, it's essential for us to keep up business momentum and maintain our most important focus, delivering value to our clients. And with that, I would like to highlight some great project wins that we have announced in this quarter. Starting out here in Sweden, we have taken an important step in our partnership with BAE Systems Hägglunds. We have signed a new framework agreement covering engineering services in product development, procurement, quality and production across several areas of the operation. This agreement builds on our strong track record of delivering high-quality engineering solutions for the defense industry, and we look forward to contributing to innovation and strengthening the societal security together with our clients. In the quarter, we were also selected by the Norwegian Nuclear Decommissioning Agency to support the safe decommissioning and radioactive waste management of Norway's nuclear research reactors. Under this agreement, Afry will deliver expert services and strategic advisory to ensure fully compliance with the strict security regulations that are very critical in the nuclear sector. And finally, we secured an important contract in Switzerland for the modernization of the Western Bypass in Zurich. So Afry will be responsible for the operating and safety equipment as part of the highway upgrade as well as the rehabilitation of traffic systems. The Western bypass plays a key role in reducing traffic in Zurich. And with our expertise in transport infrastructure, we will support the continued safe, efficient and sustainable operation of this vital route. And I'm also very happy to highlight the first acquisition in our new group structure. Yesterday, we announced that Afry has entered into agreement to acquire Reta Engenharia. Reta is a Brazilian provider of comprehensive project and construction management services with a leading foothold in the mining and metal sector. Reta's strong local presence and competence will strengthen Afry's existing operations in Brazil, which includes over 1,200 employees to unlock new growth opportunities across the Americas. As mining and metals are essential to meet the increasing demand for materials that are critical to the industrial transition, this acquisition reinforces Afry's role in advancing the engineering and industrial transition. Reta will be integrated in our segment Mining and Metals within the Global Division Industry, and I look forward to welcoming all Reta employees to Afry in Q3 when we expect to finalize this acquisition. And I think that is a nice conclusion before I'm handing over to you, Bo.

Thank you, Linda. I will, as usual, cover the financials this time for Q2 2025. Q2 showed net sales of SEK 6.7 billion and EBITA of SEK 438 million. On rolling 12 months, we are now at SEK 26.5 billion on net sales, and we fall right below SEK 1.9 billion on EBITA, following 2 quarters with a really weak calendar. Calendar is the driving factor for the decline on rolling 12 months EBITA compared to 12 months ago and explains approximately SEK 165 million of the negative movement. In the quarter, with net sales of SEK 6.7 billion, adjusted organic growth came in at negative 2.5%, where volume continued to be pressured by capacity adjustments during the last number of quarters. As seen in previous quarters, the decline in volume was partially compensated with positive pricing. We estimate higher average fees of approximately 5% in the quarter, which is in line then with the last number of quarters. Total growth is reported at negative 7%, affected also by a negative calendar of more than 9 hours and FX effects from a strengthened SEK compared to last year. The negative adjusted organic growth in Q2 was sequentially lower and most divisions saw sequentially lower growth levels. Process Industries was the exception and showed sequential improvement, but remain on negative growth also in this quarter. The Energy division remained in growth mode, but showed somewhat lower growth than the really strong growth in Q1. The order backlog developed favorably and increased to SEK 20.7 billion, improving sequentially and to last year. Currency adjusted, the backlog has improved 5.6% to last year with improvements primarily from divisions Infrastructure and Process Industries. The Energy division maintained the largest order backlog in relation to net sales, but at the level in line with last year adjusted for currency effects. EBITA, excluding items affecting comparability, came in at SEK 438 million, and the EBITA margin was at 6.6%. Negative calendar affects EBITA with SEK 104 million and the EBITA margin with 1.4 percentage points to last year, so that calendar adjusted margin was fully in line with last year. Currency changes has marginal impact on the EBITA margin, but on absolute terms, we estimate a negative currency impact of SEK 20 million to SEK 25 million on EBITA compared to last year. As seen throughout 2024 and in Q1, divisions Infrastructure and Energy continue to support the margin development of the group when adjusting for their respective calendars. Process Industries reported 10% EBITA margin in Q2 following successful project completions. Management Consulting is well below last year, primarily due to a positive one-off in the comparative quarter. Utilization is again lower than last year, but for Q2, the decline is in line with what we saw in 2024 following the particularly weak Q1. All divisions show negative year-over-year development for utilization in Q2. And as stated last quarter, utilization will be a clear focus for Afry going forward. We have some effects remaining in IDS related to the Agency Work Act. But from next quarter, we are expecting those effects to be fully absorbed. In quarter 2, we report SEK 91 million restructuring costs related to changes in the group structure reported then as items affecting comparability. The restructuring costs relate to redundancies, both on managerial and operational levels. With the new group structure now operational, we will continue to address our cost base as well as making portfolio optimization in quarters to come. And we estimate further restructuring costs of SEK 200 million to SEK 300 million in the next 12 months. We are expecting the payback time of these restructuring efforts, both the one in Q2 and the ones in the next 12 months, to be on average 1 year. Thus, we are, on average, expecting an EBITA run rate uplift of the same level as the restructuring costs when they occur. Cash flow from operating activities in Q2 was marginally lower than last year. Available liquidity remained around SEK 4 billion, and the sequential movement on net debt is driven by the dividend payout in the quarter. On net debt to EBITDA, we report 2.9x. This is higher than last year despite the lower net debt, given the weak calendar last 12 months and the restructuring costs in Q2, both affecting EBITDA. Normal seasonality for the remainder of the year would provide significant deleveraging in the last quarter of the year and take us to around or below our financial target of 2.5x. And with that, I leave back to you, Linda.

Thank you for that, Bo. And I would, with that, like to give you an update on what we have achieved this quarter, but also a bit of what's coming ahead. So setting the foundation for profitable growth. During the quarter, we have prepared the implementation of the new group structure, which was announced earlier this year. We performed a comprehensive restructuring of the entire group structure, which included an assessment of all parts and layers of the organization. With these changes, we have now set the foundation for driving profitable growth, enabling us to streamline operations and structurally address our cost base. At the same time, we maintained a strong focus on keeping business momentum and continue to increase our order backlog. The new group structure became effective as of 1st of July. And in Q3, we will report the new group structure through the 3 global divisions, Energy, Industry and Transportation & Places. And looking at our ongoing strategic journey, we now initiated the first steps during Q1 this year, focusing on the buildup, setting the group strategic direction, initiated the portfolio review and conducted the assessment of Afry's operating model. Now during Q2, we worked relentlessly with restructuring efforts and operational readiness to ensure that we are ready to operate in the new structure from 1st of July. And going into the second half of 2025, we're now accelerating the strategy development of the new structure focused on our core segments strategy and the client-oriented and high-value offerings. And we will present our updated strategy at our Capital Markets Day on the 4th of November this fall. In parallel, we are driving the implementation for a fit-for-purpose operating model, including continuously addressing and operational -- addressing our cost base, but also operational efficiencies. And lastly, we are very excited to welcome you to our Capital Markets Day on the 4th of November here at our headquarters in Solna. We will spend half a day together, where me and my executive team will present Afry's updated strategy and our profitable growth plan. This will be an in-person event, and we will share more information as we get closer to the day. And with that, Bo, we will open up for questions.

[Operator Instructions] And we're going to start with Dan Johansson from SEB. Dan, we will come back to you. And we'll start with Johan Dahl from Danske Bank.

[indiscernible]

Johan, we had some problems hearing you, but I think I caught the gist of the question. And hopefully, so you don't have to repeat it. So talking about the SEK 200 million to SEK 300 million that we then announced for restructuring costs in the upcoming year. Our expectation is that when we do a restructuring effort, and we announced that as a restructuring cost, then the corresponding amount should be estimated as a run rate lift up in the following quarters, leading then to a payback time of 1 year. And that is then on average. Of course, the different initiatives that we are doing will have different types of impact, but we estimate that, that is a reasonable estimate of what is to be expected.

[indiscernible]

Sorry, Johan. Now we have the sound in order. So if you could just repeat the last one, sorry.

Yes, I'm just trying to translate that net effect. So in your minds, this represents 100 to 200 bps billing ratio uplift. Is that the way to look at it?

That sounds like a reasonable estimate. Of course, the effects of the restructuring will have different types of impact. But looking at the utilization rate, as you suggest, that's a reasonable estimate.

Just one follow-up on the order book. I was wondering, Linda, order book has developed quite nicely, at least from sort of how it's looked in the last 1, 2 years. But I'm just wondering with your tenure at Afry and the new initiatives that you're driving, how has that impacted the quality of that order book? How has it impacted the way you evaluate orders you take into the company? Just to help us understand the changes in accepting those orders.

Absolutely. This has been one of our utmost priorities, I would say, to get our order book in shape. So we have put a lot of structures in place on how we approve new projects entering the order backlog. And of course, the order backlog is over many years. So we do have some projects sold at a very low margin that is still with us in the backlog. But going forward, the margin and the quality of the services also in the backlog is improving over time. So it's -- we put a lot of focus on that in our daily operation to build a strong and stable backlog.

And can you put that delta in how you evaluate orders into context comparing it to sort of cost efficiencies and billing ratio uplifts? How does that measure compared to that, just to get a feel for the magnitude?

Well, of course, it's so many elements into this. The one sort of thing we can say it's better to have a large order backlog than have a small, and now we are increasing it. And we can also from that then, over time, improve our utilization rate because we have now a more sufficient workload. But we are also a little bit dependent on the timing of the market because the project for us, it's different phases. And now when we have this a little bit uncertainty within the market, some of the projects are more related that we do the first phases, the pre-engineering phases and the studies and so on. And we are a bit waiting on the investment decision from our clients to do the big bulk of engineering work. So we do have some dependencies also to our clients and market activities built into the backlog. But we are much better positioned going into Q3 this year than we were last year.

And then we'll try again with Dan Johansson from SEB.

Linda and Bo, hope you can hear me much better.

Loud and clear. Perfect.

Maybe I'll follow up a little bit on Johan's question on the restructuring initiative. Could you say something about the composition of the restructuring initiatives? Given the fairly quick payback, I assume the savings you intend to achieve are mainly personnel related. Is that a correct observation?

Yes, it is. It's the first sort of take on our structural reassessment of our organization and all the spans and layers of that. So yes, it's much related to that.

And as you indicate, I mean, it covers a big proportion of the company. I mean, to some extent, we are addressing our cost base, and that's a big part of the restructuring efforts. And to some extent, we are working continuously then with more operational efficiencies related then to the new strategy. So it will be a combination of that addressing the full company. But as Linda said, mainly redundancy related or mainly personnel related is what we expect.

Understood. And I mean, given the order book, how do you sort of balance the risk that demand starts to come back here during second half and into 2026? And at the same time, you scale down your FTEs, so to speak. So there's not a double wrong, if you understand my question.

No, absolutely. And of course, very relevant questions. As we see it, we still have some potential in the utilization rate, utilizing our employee base in a better way. And we also think that we have the ability to scale up quite fast. We have a quite attractive brand, and we are in well shape to recruit employees also. So we see that as a minor risk actually.

Perfect. And final one from my side. On the order book composition, is it a couple of large multiyear projects driving the order growth? Or do you see similar growth along across the sort of bread and butter, small and midsized projects as well, if it's possible to do that split?

Yes. Also very relevant given how we now want to build our backlog going forward. And I can say it's a good mix of projects within our defined core segments going forward, supporting our belief on the market. They are mixed in size. We have displayed a couple of big ones going over many years, but we see also good smaller projects, and we see a lot of studies and early phase activities also in the mix in our order book.

Then we will open up for Jesper Stugemo from Handelsbanken.

Can you hear me? All right. Great. On the utilization level, you mentioned that it was down year-on-year in all the divisions here, but I was thinking a little bit around the process here, improving the margin almost 1%. Is this mainly related to the successful project closing? Or do you see that the utilization at least have stabilized? Or what do you see?

Yes. I mean we saw -- if we take a step back and we saw kind of during 2024, then the -- practically all the decline in utilization was then related to Process Industries with a big year-over-year decline that we don't see as clearly anymore. We still have a decline, but it's significantly smaller than what we saw during last year and more in line with what we see in April as a whole. So as we said, I think both me and Linda, part of the reason for the solid performance in Q2 specifically for Process Industries was successful project closings. But that was not -- it was not a big one-off quarter in that sense. We do see a strengthening of the performance of Process Industries. And even though we still carry a negative year-over-year utilization, we have been able to compensate that in a good way by practically cost savings related and cost efficiencies in the division.

Okay. Great. And could you give some more like color on the increased activity you've seen in Latin America, some examples there?

Well, there are -- as we have talked about now over the last quarters, pulp & paper has been quite challenging for us on a global level. And now we see some promising signs, especially in Latin America. We presented a big Arauco project that we were awarded in -- I think it was in Q1, and we see more and more early phase studies in that one. So we are seeing positive signs on several clients in both Lat -- yes, especially in Latin America.

All right. And then just one last one for me, more technical one on the elimination on EBITA level was a bit higher than it used to be. Is this related to restructuring? And should we expect the same sort of run rate here going forward?

The vast majority was, as you imply, related to restructuring. We did see some smaller minor currency effects affecting than seen in -- the quarter seen in the comparison to last year. But I would say, besides of that is we actually had a seasonally strong last year in the comparatives. So from a seasonality aspect, it was more in relation to Q2 last year than it was Q2 this year besides the restructuring.

Next question is from Tom Guinchard from Pareto.

First of all, a question on IDS. Just on the consultancy here, the Agency Work Act, how much of a delta did you see in Q2 compared to Q1 in terms of margin?

We said -- I said before that this was -- we expect this to be the last quarter where we actually see some year-over-year effects related to the Agency Work Act. It's really -- we're now at those levels. So it's difficult to specify exactly how big those effects are. But from a divisional perspective, I would expect that to be in the range of 1 percentage point or so on the utilization for the quarter. But we are expecting that to be fading out now completely, and we don't expect that effect to be anything material from Q3 and onwards.

Tom. Are you -- do you have any other questions?

Yes. Just a sentiment question in IDS as well. How is the customer discussion going moving into Q3? Are you still seeing caution in terms of investment decisions or slightly more positive indications from your customers?

Well, we see quite a mix there. We still see some slow movement on the automotive industry with the tariffs and that impacting the clients' decisions. But we also see quite an uptick in the defense sector, also defense as such, but also total defense of the society. So here, we see quite positive signs, and we also presented the win here in this quarter. So this mix, I would say, with continuous patterns in the automotive going down and the defense going up. And then we have sort of mixed or stable market when it comes to food and pharma and a couple of the other elements.

Perfect. And just a final one on transport infrastructure. How much have you started seeing the increased investment rates? Is it trickling into the system or still only on paper in terms of increased budget proposals connected both to pure infra and pure defense?

Well, there's still -- as you said, they're still quite early phases, but we see that we're in more and more framework agreements in this field, and that will generate call-offs over time. So it's still quite early, but we see promising on that development.

The next question is from Johan Sundén from DNB Carnegie.

I think I follow up a little bit on the restructuring initiatives as well here. Just interesting to hear what would be the swing factor for you to end up, let's say, SEK 200 million versus SEK 300 million in restructuring, i.e., cost savings? And also interested to hear some kind of phasing when the kind of restructuring charges is expected to take place.

Maybe I can start, and then Bo can jump in. Why we put a range is, of course, because we have still some market issues to deal with, especially in automotive and parts of our building business. So of course, we need to see also in what direction the market goes. But besides those 2 elements, I would say it's quite even distributed between the divisions and also the functions. And maybe Bo can elaborate a little bit more on the technicalities on that.

Yes, I do agree. I mean it's practically the market development that is the big swing factor to where we end up in terms of that range more than addressing the cost base, which I think is more clear in that sense in that comparison. In terms of the timing, we're not providing further kind of timing guidance, then this is what we expect over the next 12 months. So we will work as diligently and fast as we can. But then, of course, some of these efforts require some preparation and might take a quarter or 2 before we are ready to go through.

Great. And then also on the kind of portfolio review, are these initiatives including a complete close down of specific subsegments? Or is it just more kind of modifications? How should we interpret it?

Well, we will continue to do with our current portfolio review over the coming 12 months as well. But what we are doing now is that we are focusing very much on these 14 core segments that we have selected in our strategy update. And we see a clear sort of market logic behind these segments that we have selected. And as you might saw yesterday, we made an acquisition of Reta Engenharia, who is a perfect example, I think, on how we will support our segments going forward, adding capacity and also adding capabilities over the full life cycle of a project, also building on our strong position in the Brazilian market. So it's more focus on what we are going to do going forward at this point.

And should we interpret your acquisition from yesterday that you're rather a buyer than a seller of businesses as of now?

Yes. Again, I mean, we are in the middle of this one, and we are now focusing on the things that we see going forward. So there could be potential, but there's also an opportunity for us to be more fast in distributing our resources between the segments that we will work with going forward. So it's also internal mobility and things like that coming into place here.

But I think it's difficult to make that assumption, Johan. I mean it's still -- we are always kind of looking at opportunities to make relevant acquisitions. But then looking back, we've been in a consolidation mode the last 5 or 6 quarters. And we're also looking at the next 12 months where we will continue to do restructuring efforts also on the operations side. But that doesn't exclude the possibility for us to execute on acquisition opportunities when they arise.

Perfect. And one final question for me is also a little bit back to the phasing and timing. But when should we expect the kind of utilization trend to turn? Will this happen already in '25? Or is that something for '26?

I mean our ambition is to, of course, stop that negative trend that we've carried now for a couple of years and do that sooner rather than later. Our ambition is, of course, that our -- the restructuring efforts that we do that we then started now much clearly in Q2 and we will follow up over the next 12 months will be sufficient to both stop the negative trend and start trickling upwards. So ambition is, of course, to have that in place sooner rather than later, but I'm not providing more guidance than so in terms of the exact timing of that trend shift.

Next up is Adela Dashian from Jefferies.

A couple from me. If we start with -- and this is going to be a follow-up on the order backlog questions that have already been asked and answered. But given the growth this quarter, would you say that this has been, I guess, a more active push by you, Linda, to materialize the orders that are coming through? Or is it more of an element that market discussions with your customers are progressing in a more optimistic manner?

Yes. No, this has been a clear focus area for us. So of course, when we do the restructuring and reorganization elements, we have looked at a couple of risk mitigation actions. And one of the first that we identified was that we need to continue our strong focus on sales and also, of course, delivering on the client value. So we have made sure that we have had sufficient time to spend on sales and market activities during this period of time because that is one of the best building blocks for us going forward. So it's been a very focused sales strategy from our side.

Got it. So I guess you would be disappointed if this trajectory doesn't continue in the coming quarters then if it's been more of like an active push. That was a question.

Sorry. No, sorry. I thought that was a comment.

The answer was, yes.

Yes. Yes, we will, of course, focus. We will continue our focus on this one. And as you know, there are sometimes long sales cycles as well for the larger projects. So -- so we will not lose that momentum going forward. We'll keep on that focus.

That's good to hear...

No, I think it's fair to say that the order intake leading to a good backlog development and the utilization will be key focus areas for us also going forward.

Yes. I guess also driving the utilization rate higher. On the geographic expansion and the acquisition that was announced last night, I hear here that you're more focused on continuing the acquisitive trail. But going into Latin America or other emerging markets, is that also going to be much more of a focus point for you going forward?

Well, we have said from a global perspective that we are, of course, Nordic and Europe based, and we have all our 3 global divisions present in the Nordics and in Europe. In Asia, we are very strong on the energy side. And in Americas, we are strong on the industry side. So of course, we build on our position, especially our strong pulp & paper position in Americas by now also adding capacity in the metal and mining sector. So that will be good for us. And we will also sort of utilize resources from Latin America to projects in U.S. and especially Canada going forward. So this is sort of a build on our position in Americas going forward.

The next question is from Raymond Ke from Nordea.

Linda and Bo, a couple of questions from me, starting on the restructuring side as well. About the SEK 200 million to SEK 300 million, how should we think about this across your division? I think you partly answered that, but is it fair to assume that it's sort of pro rata distributed based on each division's sales size? Or is it sort of more split evenly on an absolute amount across each division?

I think it is, of course, it's difficult to say, Raymond. But I think kind of starting from a pro rata assumption, that's a fair starting point. And then I would think on kind of where is the market developing kind of in the next 12 to 24 months? And what does that imply? For instance, most likely, we will be quite cautious on the energy side, whereas on the other divisions, it might be more of a pro rata game.

Yes, that makes sense. And could you also just maybe help us better grasp the restructuring costs and like what layer you're addressing, when, including sort of the SEK 91 million that you've incurred here in Q2? Like do you start top down? Is it division by division? Yes, just help us understand a bit like how you're working it.

Yes. I mean, starting on the Q2, the SEK 91 million, as you referred to, in a sense, that is then the result of a very comprehensive reorganization taking us into the new group structure that we just went into then 1st of July. It's -- of course, we started with the announcement of the new group structure. So that was then the first starting point was a top-down starting point. But then from that point, it's been more practically a bottom-up exercise that specifically, setting practically the foundation for us going into the new group structure. Moving forward, it will be more tailored in that sense. We will have -- we will do restructuring efforts both on -- continued on operational and managerial level, where required, both looking at administrative functions more specifically, addressing our cost base and also do operational efficiencies, not specifically in a given order, not a top-down or a bottom-up, but more tailor-made to the opportunities that we see.

That was really helpful. And a final one from me. Considering then the headcount reductions and the restructurings that they imply, are we to think that you will on the net be fewer people next year, excluding acquisitions that is?

I think given the announcement today on restructuring efforts in that range, I think that's a reasonable assumption from an organic perspective. Then, of course, we are quite determined to get into profitable growth mode. So if we get support also from a market development, that won't stop us from executing on that. But I think looking -- as your question, can I imply looking 12 months ahead, I guess it's touch and go whether you can reasonably expect the market to develop that quickly when we are at the same time restructuring.

Thank you. And with that, we conclude the Q&A session.

Okay. So thank you so much for joining us here today. And we are wishing you all a great summer, and we look forward to meet you again in the fall. And especially, we look forward to our Capital Markets Day on the 4th of November. Have a nice summer, all of you.