Agfa-Gevaert NV (AGFB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Agfa Full Year 2025 Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand the conference over to Pascal Juery, CEO. Please go ahead.

Hello, everyone. I'm sitting in Mortsel right now with Fiona Lam, our CFO; Viviane Dictus, our Investment Relationship Manager; and the rest of the Executive Committee. I am going to walk you through the Q4 and full year results for the group. And my first message is indeed, we had quite a strong Q4. I would like to remind everyone that we do have a strong seasonality in our business and that every year, Q4 is by far the strongest quarter. But I realize that in '25, actually, we almost beat all records because Q4 EBITDA is 2/3 of the EBITDA of the year. So it's even more pronounced, I would say, than the years before. Also, second very positive point, positive cash flow performance in the quarter and in the year. So I'm going to move the slide a bit indeed. Positive performance of cash flow due to 3 elements. I would say one is, of course, the management of the operations and because reduction of working capital was a strong. The second was also, I would say, management of liquidity because we are actually winding down our vendor loans in Agfa, so loans that we have extended to customers. And number three, we have resolved the AgfaPhoto case and received actually the reward strong cash flow. These results are also coming, and I need to be very clear about it, but they are coming from a very stringent cash and cost management that we have applied and accelerated actually in Q4. And that's also the reason why we are coming to you today with probably results that were slightly better than expected, I would say. So EUR 39 million for the quarter. I'm going to come back to a bit in details about the contribution of different businesses. But overall, as you've seen, this is pretty much across the board that we are improving the results. Now if I turn to -- briefly to the headlines of each businesses, I think HealthCare IT, as you know, we are in a cloud transition and being in a cloud transition is having a short-term impact. When I say short term, it's really 2 to 3 years impact on your top line and bottom line. I will come back to that. And in this context, what we are looking at is really the leading indicators, of course, and order intake has increased over the year by 14%, EUR 187 million. This is the highest order intake ever for the business and we are and we are booking record after record. And more importantly, the cloud order intake has increased by 38%, which shows really the dynamics of the cloud transition today. Cloud technology is about 1/3 of our global order intake for '25. But when you look sequentially, actually, this trend is accelerating in Q4, for instance, it was up 58%, okay? Now as you know, quarters are lumpy in terms of order intake. We shouldn't be looking at quarters too much in terms of order intake, but the trend behind is really 33% of cloud order intake up from 27% in 2024, but we are seeing an acceleration. And also, I want to stress that we are winning in the market. We are winning net new customers, 43% of order intake. So today, we are taking share in this market in the order intake and that will translate to sales, especially when it's cloud approximately a year after taking an order. So overall, pretty good performance in Agfa-Gevaert, I would say, in spite, by the way, of the adverse currency impact. We are operating mostly dollar and therefore, the translation impact is significant on the top line, bottom line. So that's where we are for [indiscernible]. DPC, clearly a very strong year -- Q4 representing by the [indiscernible] for this business across the board, I would say we had a strong Q4. All businesses have contributed to the growth actually, give you a bit more details. On Radiology, I think the message here is, as you know, it's particularly impacted by the strong decrease of sales on medical film that we discussed over the past quarter. I think the message I want to pass for the first time this year, we have a positive EBITDA. This is effect of the ramp-up of the savings, but also the acceleration of our productivity plan in our main product supply operations, but also go-to-market actually. So that's what we are seeing along with generally, which is a strong [indiscernible] for the this year as well. Our DR business was affected by the fact that the end market for DR for the first time [indiscernible] negative and even if we are trying to outperforming the market, has negative impact [indiscernible]. So in this backdrop what to think I would like to share [indiscernible] as you have seen and you have seen examples of these in Q4, which we are continuing to see those. We are accelerating the plan to optimize [indiscernible] First we have accelerated the implementation of current plan and we have just actually concluded about 10 days ago an agreement with our social partner on the plan to work on additional measures that will put into effect as soon as April in this year to continue to adjust the cost base of the film activities not only in manufacturing but also in other areas. I would like also to remind you that we have a new structure in place from the beginning of this year and that we will operate across 3 business segments. No change for [indiscernible] continue to provide full results as we do today. However, the change is more on the industrial part of the company. Industrial Solutions regroups 2 growth engines, actually GHS, Green Hydrogen Solutions; and DPS, Digital Printing Solutions. So it's going to be, I would say, a more direct read so on the growth engines performance for the company. And Imaging and Chemicals, we have [indiscernible] activities. We believe also for operational reasons [indiscernible] we can manage this business a lot more asset-driven than market driven given the challenges that we are facing and of course that remains specific entity. We have bit of [indiscernible] that was announced a few years ago -- a few months ago a bit too much. Okay. So that's the -- now let me walk you through the numbers before I turn to Fiona for details. So top line in Q4 still challenged to see that Radiology's market decline continues, I would say, unabated really the trend is really there. But we also have a reduction of top line for HealthCare IT. We had a slightly smaller quarter than last year, but this is also the impact of 2 things, the transition to cloud, which is less short term more on a recurring basis and also the impact of [indiscernible]. Now as you look the EBITDA, you see a strong improvement from the last year mainly from [indiscernible] upright cost [indiscernible] we are closing the gap [indiscernible]. Now if we look at the full year top line. Same comment as for Q4, the top line comes from mainly the decrease in [indiscernible] and the currency impact [indiscernible] most of our businesses, actually 2/3 of our business is outside of Europe in different currencies. And you can see that this impact, the same comment for 2015. Now if you look at the full year EBITDA, this is clear story. We have a strongly negative impact [indiscernible] while all the other opportunities are positively to the bottom line. I would say in a difficult background and context, there was not a lot of tailwind for us in '25. So I'm going to turn to you, Fiona, to comment the bridges on the cash and other financial report.

Thank you, Pascal. So a bit more insight on the adjusted EBITDA bridge. Indeed, we ended the full year with EUR 11 million lower adjusted EBITDA, but that is mainly coming from [indiscernible] the [ EUR 25 million ] Radiology due to the volume decline and also the savings program only started to kick in the second half of the year a little bit and a bit more in Q4. So if you see HealthCare IT and DPC, they have been contributing positively. HealthCare is also a EUR 5 million negative [indiscernible] impact and a large part of that is due to HealthCare IT because, as you know, HealthCare IT has a lot of U.S. business, while the other business have global spreads and currency. So you can see a large part of that actually is related to HealthCare IT as well. Otherwise, they would have been performing much better in bottom line. A part of this negative impact on radiology has been offset by a very strong stringent cost controls that you see in SG&A we have delivered and R&D also we have delivered. So that at the end -- we narrowed the gap of the EUR 25 million to EUR 11 million. So we will deliver EUR 59 million of EBITDA. On the cash flow, next slide -- on the cash flow, as we said, we actually have a very good year of free cash flow. We ended at EUR 35 million positive despite we lose actually EUR 11 million adjusted EBITDA. And this, of course, is actually helping on 3 elements: very, very good working capital that contributed EUR 36 million. Also, like Pascal already mentioned in the beginning, our customer lease financing portfolio, that contributed also another EUR 28 million (sic) [ EUR 27 million ] and we have the one-off of AgfaPhoto EUR 38 million. So these 3 big improvements are able to help us to continue to invest in the CapEx of EUR 34 million and also pay our legacy liability of the pension, which is high. At the same time, it also help us to continue to transform and support the restructuring amount in the nonrecurrence, which you actually also have a cash out of EUR 48 million for last year. So all in all, I think the improvement on working capital and finance strategy is the one that helps and continue to support the company's transformation and provide us a much better headroom and cash flow. Next page. Associated with the free cash flow, you also see a nice good movement development of our net financial debt. You could also see here from 2024 end of the year and actually it is structurally down. So we ended at the year-end of EUR 21 million net financial debt. Of course, we still have quite a large total debt banking, but also there, you see the trend going down as well. So we also have ended our pension debt in the past and now coming down to 420 -- EUR 443 million (sic) [ EUR 422 million ]. So this is also a good development trend. If we look at the revolving credit facility, we did at the end of the year draw EUR 100 million. So out of EUR 180 million was generated in December. So we actually have a lot of cash at hand in the bank because a lot of cash came in at the end of the year. That's also why you see net financial debt is only EUR 21 million. Following this, we confirm that we have a good sufficient headroom at the end of the year for all our company's compliance, which we have agreed to submit with liquidity that rose EUR 158 million. You can also see the leverage is much lower. Also, the interest cover has sufficient as well and adjusted EBITDA covenant is EUR 41.8 million. So that's all in all quite a good headroom. Also you see earlier slide already, the pension funds has been improved a lot on the status. Here is the 4 material countries and you also see that EUR 388 million [indiscernible] EUR 327 million. This mainly comes from benefit payments [indiscernible]. Also, we have a favorable year-end liability remeasurement. In terms of 2026, we expect actually the cash out will be lower on the pension. We also expect the service cost will decrease mainly because of Belgium and Germany. We would expect [indiscernible] less contribution in 2026 versus 2025. Here are some concrete numbers, which I will not go through one by one, but you have seen them already. Sales deteriorated by 4.5% nominally. And part of that is due to exchange rate. If you look at the gross profit that have reduced percentage-wise because of larger turnover and less fixed cost coverage. So therefore, you see actually due to Radiology, we have less gross profit. Operating expenses has been contributing with good -- stringent cost control, and we are able to maintain -- bring the total operating cost according to more than what the top line increase is. So you see the percentage has increased -- improved by 0.5 point. And that ends our adjusted EBIT 2025 versus 2024 with a difference of only EUR 4 million. If you look at adjusted EBIT -- on the adjusted -- after the adjusted EBIT, we have quite a significant amount of adjustment and restructuring expenses under the adjustments and restructuring basis of EUR 58 million for 2025, there is also EUR 38 million [indiscernible] positive impact. You can see they contributed this positive impact as well. And other -- net finance cost as well, there is also a total [ EUR 7 million ] interest benefit [indiscernible] versus 2024. All in all, this brings our results for the period of EUR 71 million losses compared to 2024. If you look at the restructuring adjustments, just coming back besides, AgfaPhoto, we also have an impairment of our Radiology [indiscernible] part of the business because of [indiscernible]. Free cash flow, I think I already have gone through all of them. So you can see the numbers. I don't think we should repeat this because it's [indiscernible]. So thank you very much.

Thank you, Fiona. Very clear. Thanks very much. A bit of highlights on each of the business. So for HealthCare IT, I repeat really the key messages very quickly. Cloud adoption is accelerating in North America, and we are winning it. We are part of the winners in this moment. It's a significant event so that it's a trigger for customers to -- for our clients when they go to cloud to reopen their market, and we are successful in getting our share of this reopening. So I'm very pleased about the numbers. I'm not going to repeat the numbers I already said, but I think really what you should take away is we are one of the few companies that are able to manage this cloud transition with excellent customer satisfaction. And I'm really proud because in this market, everybody is looking at the class market report. And this year, for the first time, we have actually in the 3 main components of the enterprise imaging system and software, we are best-in-class in the 3 categories: text, the image generation in itself, but also the viewer, meaning when you send an image to a radiologist and the archiving part to store and make it part of the medical report of the person. I want to insist that the best-in-class actually was held by 1 company for 12 years, 12 years in a row. And now we are the top ranked company in the U.S. market for the first time ever for Agfa and after 12 years of leadership by another company, and it's a good illustration of the progress that we have made in the market. If you ask me what is different with Agfa from the rest of the pack, I would say our ability to scale and to demonstrate effectively that we can provide our customers with a good execution and a good migration to the cloud. And this is the reason why we are winning in this market. It's a people business, it's word of mouth and it's customer satisfaction that does wonders for us and our commercial pipeline, therefore, is increasing almost every day, I would say, with this kind of external recognition that are based on real customer satisfaction. So I'd like also to remind you, okay, that we are in the middle of a business model that we used to sell exclusively until 2024 almost project business, meaning where we a lot of upfront and then we have a smaller [ HealthCare IT]. The cloud business and revenue model is different. The upfront fee is much less, but the revenues are recurring and are higher than your typical SMS model. And you could say 2 things to understand is when we have an order in cloud, it will take between 9 and 12 months to implement. So there is, of course, a delay between the time we take an order and the time we can revenue recognize it first. And second, compared to a new trend project, this is going to take 5 years to kind of be on balance in terms of revenue and margin recognition. But at the end of the day, the contract cloud richer, is more stable and recurring, is embedding growth because we have a system by which, of course, people pay directly on the consumption and not the fixed license. And therefore, this is short term impacting negatively our revenue and our earnings, but long term, totally transforming the business with much more recurring. So that's good news for us. And again, we're happy to say that we are taking our share in this market. So in numbers, this is the reason why also you see top line decline, but I already went through it coming back to it. Just on the adjusted EBITDA, same comment we -- at constant currency, the increase will be actually much higher than about 12% higher. So it has an impact [indiscernible]. Now I'm going to go quickly. I'm going to switch to DPS. DPS was -- well, let's face it. For us, it was a bit of a disappointing year because DPS is a business that normally grows double digit. We have been able to grow 12% for 2 years in a row. And this year, it was a bit of a setback because we had a softer equipment market in North America, especially during the first half of the year where there was a lot of confusion created by the trade barriers and the tariffs that caused delayed investment. And on top of that, we lost a bit of market share during this time in North America, which now, I believe, we will regain. But we didn't have, therefore, a good year. On the [ sales ] so typically are also double digit. They were double digit actually in volume, but less in sales. It's a question of mix. We did a little bit more in OEM things meaning things and it's also the development, I would say of things with larger volume and therefore, lower selling prices for larger. But nothing is broken here. I think we will receive -- we have sold our first to our beta customers. We have some in the pipeline, but it's fair to say today that given the state of the packaging market where actually a lot of customers are restructuring today, it takes a bit more time to penetrate, I would say, the packaging paper onboard market. But we have, we believe, a solid pipeline that we will see some success in '26. BHS partnership is going on. We have now a number of machines that are installed in [indiscernible] customers. So again, it's more a mid- to long-term play this one. That's very promising. Now BHS, a very contrasted market. Europe is really stalling, as everybody knows. So for the time being, we have the activity of the European pipeline is quite low, although we are seeing, on the horizon, some improvement due to the adoption of the [indiscernible] directive. The U.S. market has shut down. I think it's fair to say that for the time being, we don't have any activity anymore. However, Asia and Middle East are showing very strong [indiscernible] especially India and China and also some Middle East countries. And here, I would say we are present in India. We are taking our share of the market. China, we are working on it. I cannot tell you that it's already done. But we do have [indiscernible] over there also. We are not losing market share [indiscernible] really still the product of choice for alkaline electrolyzers. As you know, we have a new plant for which we -- that we are already using, by the way, not fully, of course, but that we're already using and provide already some benefit. But I think it's fair to say in '26, we are going to probably reach a time where it's going to be [indiscernible] this market before getting back to '27. So '25 there is still modest growth over '24. But going forward, we are expecting '26 to be very much of a dry year. So if you look at the total DPC for the year and I already commented on it, I would just like to say that it was for [indiscernible] on top line, as you see, [indiscernible] for the first time in many years, I would say, negative growth in EPS. But overall, the division will also, thanks to the good performance of the [indiscernible] pretty much where we want to be for the division for the year with significant improvement. Okay. I'm going to go quickly. Radiology, I think I'm not going to repeat everything, but the medical field, and the story is about managing the sunset and taking cost out as according to the market decline, which we are still seeing according to our expectations. DR, what I want to comment is, indeed, we are a bit of -- this is the first time, not sure ever, that the market has contracted significantly in the year. We were a bit surprised by such a strong contraction of 7% globally with some differences between regions. So we had -- we are overperforming the market, but we are still in negative growth as well, okay? So it was also not a very good year. So what we are doing is we are really with the new leader, [indiscernible]. We are doing really a new strategic road map and geographic road map while also taking care of our product portfolio to, I would say, be ready for when the market will turn around, and again this is the message. And in express, the innovation doesn't come so much from the hardware. It's pure AI and software innovation in this area. And this is an area where we have a lot of assets. So overall, a very difficult year for [indiscernible] but you heard me say that it was difficult for us in the Western European context to remove the cost as fast as we should in a backdrop of market decrease. However, we are getting there and we got there, I would say, in Q4, and we will continue [indiscernible] drop of EBITDA [indiscernible] So it still outweigh today [indiscernible] till this year, but we expect to be slightly different in '26 actually, which is why I think now it's [indiscernible] for the outlook for '26. What do we see for [indiscernible]? Clearly, we [indiscernible] Clearly, expecting more of the same, meaning progress and momentum on the order intake accelerated transition to the cloud. So we're not expecting to grow profitability in this context given the mechanism of the transition, but we are expecting to be successful in the market, market share and to continue our move forward in terms of order intake. Industrial Solutions, I think [indiscernible] will get back to growth in '26 even if we remain in the market is probably not really super buoyant. We will make progress. We have reduced most of our range in '25, and we expect to reap the benefits more so in '26. And as I told you, the difficult point for us for '26 will be Green Hydrogen Solutions. It's a business for which we have quite visibility in the pipeline, and we are getting through what I would call a trough in '26 before a pickup in '27. Regarding Imaging and Chemicals, we are expecting [indiscernible] '26 [indiscernible] impact in terms of EBITDA [indiscernible] but of course [indiscernible] the situation of the market and also what happens in silver. I'm coming back because we have a specific side on it, but I would like to explain how we are managing the impact and what's going to be the impact. But overall for Imaging and Chemicals, our plan is to have significant improvement over EBITDA for '26 and being a situation where we can [indiscernible] with our cost measures [indiscernible] for '25. For '26, we are not going to repeat the performance of the positive free cash flow. Why? Because we still have a lot of restructuring and [indiscernible] we need to do to adapt [indiscernible] and we expect, therefore, to have pressure on the free cash flow due to this. Now let me walk you through the silver price increase. So I would like to remind everyone that silver price [indiscernible] '25 [indiscernible]. Just for your reference, 5 years ago, 6 years ago, silver was $20, $25 per ounce, [indiscernible] shot up in December and January to peak over $100 and now it's about $85. So it's a significant increase. And as you know, we are still today a significant consumer of silver. So the first message I would like to give you is most of the silver exposure goes -- is from industrial silver business for which we are covered [indiscernible] and automatic passed through to customers. So here, there is no specific risk of not recovering silver. The only part of the market where we are not covered is medical field where we are not indexed. That's also the part that consumes less silver. And here we go for a classic, I would say, classical move, which is increasing prices to our customers. For the time being, we are seeing this price increase being accepted in the market. The only question mark you might have is the mid- to long-term very high silver price on the demand that could somehow further accelerate the [indiscernible] away from the field. That's a possibility that we are monitoring. But in terms of pass through, the message I want to give is we are able to pass it through. Now it will have an impact also on us. Actually, the way it works is we buy silver more or less in January to make our film. But the film is going to be a long process, steps, actually in production. It will be sold probably in April or May. The film in [indiscernible] it will take a few months until we get back the cash, okay? So to make a long story short, we buy silver, cash out in January. And the first significant cash in we are going to get with the new price is in June, July. So it will create a negative cash impact -- working capital cash impact at the beginning of the year. Then we will get impact throughout the, but not fully, during the year. So that's for cash [indiscernible]. EBITDA is a reverse. Actually, we would expect positive EBITDA impact [indiscernible] that would come a bit earlier [indiscernible]. So to make a long story short earlier, positive EBITDA impact [indiscernible] a negative cash flow impact. Now the situation will be like this still [indiscernible] If silver would be extremely volatile, that could make a variation of what I just said, but not significant. The overall direction of travel will remain the same. But of course, if we have very, very strong [indiscernible] in silver, it will have an impact. But we are monitoring that already for all scenarios and managing [indiscernible]. So I would like to add as well in this context, I'm taking a step back in the transformation order which is between '20 and '25. You can see very clearly the year of the transformation of [indiscernible] between the mature business [indiscernible]. You can see the growth that we have over 6 years and especially, we can see a step up in profitability. So actually, it's a very different company [indiscernible]. And when you take a step back and [indiscernible] that we have switched for the company that was a film company a few years back, 6 years ago, where most of the earnings were coming from film. Today, we are different company, [indiscernible], which you can see that the profit of the film [indiscernible] very much. So it's a good illustration [indiscernible]. Now just a word also on sustainability, which [indiscernible] second action to reduce those CO2 emissions. I insist that these actions are, of course, sustainable actions, but they're also economically viable actions because we're doing so, we are also optimizing [indiscernible] it's not the adversary [indiscernible]. On the contrary, that also contribute to. We're also engaging our workforce in the [indiscernible] improving the presentation of gender. And we are also engaged in the certificate, the safety program by which we have reduced our number of accidents over the past years, but we are divided by 2, in fact, by more than 2 over the past years. So it's -- I'm also very proud of that. And I think we can say we are becoming more and more CSR compliance, I would say, this year. And we also are ranking on the top 20% of the EcoVadis rated companies. Also the way to check our factory site. I don't have the ambition to be in the top 20%, but I think we should definitely be part of the top quartile [indiscernible]. So overall, and before I will take questions from analyst [indiscernible] actually, I would like just to say in conclusion, well, as you know, we had very difficult '25 due to the accelerated decline of the film and we took the corresponding measures. But of course, there was a time lag between the 2. We are continuing to improve and execute the strategy growth strategy. And during this phase of solution, we have a very stringent cash and cost management of performance. And as [indiscernible], we could react just like to [indiscernible] significantly in this backdrop. Transformation of the group will continue for the next year. The only thing that will be different, as I told you, is we are not going to go through quite a difficult year [indiscernible] but all other trends [indiscernible]. So now it's time to take your questions. Thanks very much for joining.

[Operator Instructions] We have the first question coming from Guy Sips from KBC Securities.

And just a few additional questions. First, can you quantify how large the early 2026 working capital outflow from silver price inflation could be and clarify whether this cash drag risk tightening covenants headroom during the restructuring peak?

Okay. I don't think we are ready to guide on the precise number for the silver cash flow. But the order of magnitude is -- I mean, the uptick is tens of millions. But at the same time, Guy, we are working on all liquidity measure in the first half. First, continuing what we've been doing in '25, meaning the wind down of the loan portfolio. We have also a few other initiatives that will be part of the compensation for this. But Fiona, you want to give more precision maybe or...

Yes. Maybe I can complement some of that. Yes, I think you are right. In Q1, we would have quite large cash out for silver to fill the pipeline. But you still see there's a seasonality issue because the timing of the charge out, that will come in also later on in Q3 and Q4. We have sufficient, I would say, sufficient other levers, which we take care that this self-purchase which already took place in January. It will be sufficiently covered because we also ended the year much better, of course. And we also have other, let's say, cash in that we were expecting in Q1. So I'm pretty much sure that we will be able to handle the silver purchases liquidity point of view. Of course, it remains tight, but that will be okay. We will increase our Q1 net financial debt better, but will be okay.

Guy, does it answer that?

Yes, partly, yes. It's already first good guidance. Second question is on Radiology Solutions. And can you elaborate on how do you -- geographic road map and product supply redesign in radiology are expected to mitigate the volume shot that we saw last year and whether you foresee stabilization or further decline in key markets, such as China, for instance, in next or this year?

We are still forecasting the similar rate of decline in China or other markets. So that will still -- that will still go on for film, okay? But today, we have also stepped up very much the level of savings. And as I think I indicated, I think we're going to improve the results of radiology next year, although -- sorry, this year, in '26, not next year. This year, we are going to improve the results of Imaging and Chemicals now what -- so the -- I think we have enough action, okay.

And then the third question is on the HealthCare IT cloud transition. Can you provide more transparency on how many large cloud contracts that were signed in 2025 will actually go live in 2026? And what proportion of today's order book is already, let's say, implementation ready? This could help us on the modeling, the timing of revenue conversion during the trough period.

I think right now, we are entering '26. We have 8 customers in the cloud. We expect this number to more than double at the end of '26. The typical, the number of contracts, I cannot give you that on top of my head, but I would say we have a double-digit number of contracts in the cloud that we made in '25. Typically, as I told you, it's between 9 months to a year implementation delay. So the way what we are looking also as an indicator that probably we will start sharing at some time, which is the annual cloud revenue recurring. And this is like, Guy, it's a snowball effect. For the time being, it's still very small, but it's going to increase very rapidly over the next years. We will try to come up with the right metrics in the next quarters, but for the time being, we don't do that because it's still a very small part of our business. But as it will grow in implementation, we will continue to report on more metrics on the cloud transformation.

And then last...

Sorry. No, go ahead, Guy.

A fourth question, and then I will queue and I'll leave the floor to other analysts. It's a call without the [indiscernible] It's strange over the last few quarters. So can you give me an update on where we stand?

I'm going to be very clear. I think the situation will be resolved by the end of Q1.

Can you be a little bit more precise?

I cannot be more precise than that, I think. But I can tell you, it will be resolved by the end of Q1.

Okay.

Sorry, at this stage, be more precise. I'm pretty clear, I think. Thank you, Guy. Any other.

There are no further questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to Pascal Juery, CEO, for any closing remarks.

Okay. Thank you. And again, a strong Q4 that demonstrates also the ability of the company to actually react and do whatever is necessary to make sure we can address the challenges we have. And again, in '26, positive on HealthCare IT; positive on DPS where we're going to grow again; positive, also even radiology because we are going to improve our results. But the only difficult spot today for us is ZIRFON membrane, but that's temporary, and we know it. We have the visibility. Fairly confident that we know that '27 will see a step up, but it is the only negative part for '26. And again, in '26, as you could see for silver, we have -- all our plans are in place. We are modernized a bit where we need to be. I'm not saying it's a walk in the park, but we know how to do the things, and the transformation of the group will continue to take place in '26, of course. So thanks a lot. Thank you for your attention, and speak to you soon. Bye-bye.

This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.