Banijay Group N.V. (BNJ) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Banijay Group Full Year 2025 Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to [indiscernible]. Madam, please go ahead.

Thank you. Good evening, and welcome to Banijay Group's 2025 Full Year Results Webcast. This is [indiscernible]. I recently joined as Head of Investor Relations. Before we start, let me draw your attention to the disclaimer on Slide 2. I also want to remind you that this presentation is now available on the company's website, and a recording of this call will be accessible in the coming days. Your speakers today are Francois Riahi, our CEO; and Sophie Kurinckx-Leclerc, our CFO. First, Francois will present our key financial and business highlights for the full year. Sophie will then cover the results in more detail before Francois provides some concluding remarks. We will then open the call for questions. Over to you, Francois.

Thank you, Louise. Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining us again this week. I hope you're not fed up with Banijay Group. We are pleased to present strong full year 2025 results. In a challenging market environment, Banijay Entertainment demonstrated a resilient performance with strong growth of Banijay Live as we continue to scale our IP through immersive experiences and produce major sports ceremonies across the world. Adjusted EBITDA increased by around 6% for this division with a strong margin improvement. Banijay Gaming delivered a double-digit revenue growth with strong momentum across all products. This was driven by 23% growth in unique active players and effective cross-selling. This is particularly impressive when you consider the high comparison base with 2024, which included both Euro 2024 and the Olympic Games. It also delivered a double-digit adjusted EBITDA growth despite French tax increase. This performance clearly demonstrates the strength and effectiveness of our diversification strategy. Adjusted EBITDA increased by 8.6%, reaching the upper range of our guidance with 100 basis point margin improvement, reflecting continued cost control and operational efficiency. Before turning to the detailed review of our 2025 financial performance, let me briefly comment on our recent strategic developments. We have been very active. I'm sure you will agree on that, in consolidating our markets, fully aligned with the ambitions set out at our Capital Markets Day in May 2025. Following the announcement in October 2025 of the acquisition of a majority stake in Tipico Group, reinforcing our leadership in sports betting and online gaming, we announced on Tuesday a strategic partnership with RedBird IMI, to combine Banijay Entertainment and All3Media to create a global media and entertainment powerhouse. This combination will give us enhanced scale, deeper IP ownership and greater exposure to structural growth drivers, reinforcing our long-term positioning. Zooming in on our 2025 results at constant currency and current scope of operations, we delivered a revenue growth of 3.4%. This translated into 8.6% adjusted EBITDA growth, reaching EUR 961 million and 6.3% growth of the adjusted net income, which is at current FX, unlike the 2 other metrics. Adjusted free cash flow generation stood at EUR 780 million, resulting in a high level of cash conversion at 81%, again, in line with guidance. Adjusted operating free cash flow reached EUR 584 million with a conversion rate of 65%, excluding one-off effects. Our leverage improved to 2.7x, a 0.2x reduction compared to the end of 2024. Finally, we are proposing a dividend of EUR 0.35 per share, representing a 33% payout ratio as per our guidance. Let's move to business highlights now, starting with our content production and distribution business. Once again, 2025 showcased the unmatched scale of our content production and distribution leadership. At the end of 2025, our catalog grew to more than 220,000 hours of content. We had 30 formats traveling across 3 of our more geographies. And we launched over 350 new shows during the year, 350. This includes 80 titles with global streaming platforms such as Netflix, Apple TV+ and Paramount+, which is unmatched in the industry. Revenue from streamers now represent 23% of our production and distribution revenue. From a scripted perspective, we doubled our production revenue in English language content with streaming platforms, and that's just the beginning, if you think of the All3Media. House of Guinness on Netflix was a major success with over 61 million viewers. The Buccaneers was a top 10 hit in multiple territories and has been re-missioned for a third season. And NCIS: Sydney Season 3 on Paramount+ reached 4.7 million viewers with the fourth season ordered. On the unscripted side, our focus is scaling formats through local adaptations. LOL on Amazon launched in the Nordics, the U.S., France, Italy and also the U.K., where it was the #1 unscripted new launch across all platforms. The local adaptation of Temptation Island was launched on Netflix for the first time. I think if we had been said 5 years ago that Temptation Island would be on Netflix, I think we would not have believed that. And it was grown the best-performing nonscripted program globally on the platform with Season 2 commissioned for 2026. The Fifty, Shaolin Heroes, and The Summit continue their international expansion with 6 versions commissioned to date for each format, which show our capability to roll out formats globally. Moving to live experiences now, which has performed exceptionally well this year. In 2025, we more than doubled the number of events produced, reaching over 3,000 sorry, representing an average of 8 events produced per day, including the independent shows. Balich Wonder Studio delivered major international sports ceremonies throughout 2025, including the opening and closing ceremonies of the FIFA World Cup of Clubs, the African Cup of Nation and the UEFA Women's Euro as well as the UEFA Champions League final kickoff show, which was very important because Paris Saint-Germain won, demonstrating our ability to execute large-scale globally broadcast productions across continent. Most recently, many of you have watched the opening ceremony of the Milano Cortina Winter Olympic Games, which we proudly produced. The ceremony was seen by 2.5 billion people around the world, and it was widely praised globally. And according to IOC data, was regarded by a strong majority of viewers, I think, by 70% of viewers as the most memorable winter opening ceremony ever, a clear illustration of the creative ambition and execution capabilities of our live business. And of course, this type of event is the best demonstration of capability for the future events. On the immersive experiences side, LOTCHI, which we acquired in early 2025, has been a remarkable success story. In just 1 year, we have launched 16 new shows opened in 4 new countries in partnership with Banijay Entertainment's local labels, which tripled the number of tickets sold to approximately 1 million and we are now producing around 4 shows per day on average. We are excited by the potential of our live business, and we will continue to seek out opportunities to rapidly scale IP in this way, leveraging our global production footprint and tomorrow, All3Media as well. Moving now to Banijay Gaming, which continues to drive outstanding profitable growth. As I say every quarter, unique active players is the most important KPI for the commercial performance of the platform as the margin can be volatile with the results. And this grew 23% year-on-year to 2.3 million. This is particularly impressive given the absence of major global sports events in 2025, such as the World Cup or the Euro. This sustained growth was enabled by our relentless focus on our tech platform and user experience. Betclic is the #1 downloaded sports betting app in all its markets, enhanced with the recent major cloud-based upgrade and new features such as AI-powered recommendations, and we are preparing a new release for the World Cup. Our multiproduct strategy continues to deliver strong results with cross-selling between sportsbook and other activities, namely casino and poker, reaching 35%, which is remarkable. In online casino, we launched 280 new casino titles, 20% of which were original or exclusive games and successfully fully entered Ivory Coast in early 2025. Our new proprietary poker platform launched at the end of 2024 has also performed strongly, driving player growth, engagement and monetization. These multiproduct capabilities, combined with our strong technological foundations become even more strategic in the context of the Tipico acquisition with clear synergy opportunities already identified. It's also true for potential regulatory upside. That's all from me for now. I'll be back at the end with some closing remarks before we open the line for questions. But over to you, Sophie.

Thank you, Francois. Let's start with group revenue for the full year, where we delivered 3.4% growth at constant exchange rates and current scope to reach almost EUR 4.9 billion. As Francois mentioned earlier and as already highlighted during our 9 months results, 2025 was a challenging year for the global content production and distribution industry. On the gaming side, we delivered double-digit growth despite a high comparison basis in 2024. Group adjusted EBITDA increased by 8.6% to EUR 961 million at constant exchange rates and current perimeter, reaching the upper end of the guidance range. This strong performance also translated into 1 percentage point expansion of the adjusted EBITDA margin, reaching 19.7%. This was driven by the increased contribution from Banijay Gaming, which has a higher margin, combined with efficient cost control in both businesses. Moving next to our P&L. The operating profit increase of more than 25% was driven by the strong adjusted EBITDA growth and the significant decline in LTIP expense as anticipated. The improvement in the financial result reflects the successful repricing and refinancing of our debt at better conditions as well as the fair value changes in financial instruments, including hedging, put options and earn-out debt together with foreign exchange loss and gains. Income tax expense increased in line with activity growth, while our effective tax rate improved meaningfully to 35% compared to around 42% last year. Overall, adjusted net income rose by more than 6% in line with adjusted EBITDA growth. Let's move to results by business, starting with content production, distribution and live experience. Revenues were resilient, up 0.4% at constant exchange rates and current perimeter. Looking at revenue by activity. Content production was down slightly, reflecting broader softness in the market and cautious commissioning from broadcasters. Distribution revenue decline of 5.4% reflects the condition in the production market and a different mix between streaming platforms and linear broadcasters in the sale of scripted hits. The standout performer was live experience and other, which grew 20.3%, driven by the successful rollout of LOTCHI's LUMINISCENCE experience across France and internationally and the strong performance of Balich Wonder Studio with the delivery of major sports ceremonies. Looking at earnings and cash flow now for the business lines. Adjusted EBITDA was up 5.7% at constant exchange rates and current perimeter, with margin improving 80 basis points to 16.6%. This improvement reflects a favorable mix in production margins, particularly on some major scripted shows and cost control on production budgets. Higher CapEx reflects increased third-party distribution advance at Banijay rights, investment in LOTCHI and continued investment in digitalization. Adjusted free cash flow conversion stood at a solid 72%. The improvement in working capital reflects timing effects on long-term distribution contracts and different phasing between show delivery and cash collection. Income tax paid was higher, mainly reflecting payments to the tax consolidation group with no impact at group level. Adjusted operating free cash flow increased by almost 2%, reaching more than EUR 309 million. Sports betting and gaming next, where we saw strong revenue growth of 10.2% at constant exchange rates and current perimeter, reaching EUR 1.6 billion of revenue. Sportsbook revenue were up 6.8%, supported by 23% growth in unique active players and sustained player interest during major competitions, such as the new format of the Champions League. This is a remarkable outcome given the high comparison basis with 2024 as well as the impact of adverse sports results in September 2025 that did not fully reverse by year-end as we communicated at our 9-month results. Casino, Poker and Turf revenues were up 22%, also an outstanding performance. This reflects effective cross-selling between products, the successful launch of online casino in Cote dIvoire in early 2025 and the strong performance of our proprietary online poker platform in France. Looking at earnings now. Banijay Gaming continues to deliver solid profitability and generate strong free cash flow. Adjusted EBITDA was up 12.6% at constant exchange rates and current perimeter. The adjusted EBITDA margin improved to 26.7%, driven by continued cost discipline, including lower marketing costs. This was partially offset by higher betting tax in France, which came into effect in July 2025. Adjusted free cash flow conversion remains extremely high at 93%. Adjusted operating free cash flow was temporarily impacted by one-off items as highlighted at our 9 months results. These include one-offs related to the exceptional 2024 performance with cash outflows occurring in 2025, notably performance-related payouts and an exceptional EUR 27 million income tax catch-up linked to strong 2024 results. Excluding these one-offs, adjusted operating free cash flow was up 10.8%, which is more reflective of the underlying performance of the business. From a cash flow perspective, group adjusted free cash flow reached EUR 780 million, resulting in a cash conversion rate after CapEx and lease payments of 81%, fully in line with our full year guidance. Adjusted operating free cash flow was EUR 584 million with a conversion rate of 65%, excluding one-off effects mentioned earlier. The group's net debt stands at EUR 2.57 billion, representing a leverage of 2.7x, an improvement of 0.2x compared to the end of 2024. We continue to have a very strong liquidity position with a positive cash balance of EUR 494 million and EUR 280 million of undrawn secured credit lines. That's all from me. I will now hand back to Francois for some concluding remarks.

Thank you, Sophie. So as you can see, 2025 was another year of strong results. I think the most important one I would like to underline is adjusted EBITDA up 8.6%, and this is a strong performance against a high comparison basis in 2024 and in a quiet year -- in a year with a quieter sports calendar and an environment for production and distribution, which was tough in 2025. Just a few months after our 2025 Capital Markets Day, we translated our strategy into action with 2 transformative transactions across our 2 core businesses. So I think 2025 was a great year for us strategically, financially, operationally. In 2026, we expect a robust growth across all our businesses. On content production and distribution, we anticipate more growth on revenues and probably a slightly lower margin rate due to a different revenue mix. As Sophie mentioned earlier, I think the revenue mix this year was a little bit special. On Live, we also expect a very good growth continuing. On Banijay Gaming, it will be a very strong year and a very active year because of the sports events and especially including the football World Cup in the summer with more teams than ever. It will be key to attract and retain new clients as we usually do, both in Betclic and Tipico every 2 years. So very strong growth of revenues to expect in our gaming business. And as a reminder also to take into account, in 2026, we will also see the full impact of the French tax because the French tax was implemented in July of last year. We look forward to updating you on our strategic road map on March 26, including our refreshed midterm guidance, reflecting our 2 major developments. Before that, let me share a high-level view of what Banijay Group will look like post transactions. With the acquisition of Tipico, we significantly expand the scale of our gaming activities, reinforcing our leadership in sports betting and online gaming and increasing our exposure to structurally growing cash-generative activities. In parallel, the acquisition of All3Media and the strategic partnership with RedBird IMI creates a scaled global content leader with enhanced IP ownership, greater international reach and a strengthened competitive position in a consolidating market. This represents a step change in the scale, diversification and earnings profile of Banijay Group. On a combined basis, the group would have approximately EUR 7.4 billion of revenues and EUR 1.6 billion of adjusted EBITDA in 2025 as well as strong free cash flow generation. And we also mentioned yesterday, a leverage ratio at the end of 2026 around 3x. As mentioned a few minutes ago before we take your questions, I hope you can join us for our upcoming strategic update on March '26, where we will provide an update on our strategy and midterm outlook, reflecting these 2 major operations. I look forward to sharing more with you then. That's all from me. Thank you for your attention, and back to you, Louise.

Thank you, Francois. It's now time for questions. So please state your name and company. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] We will take our first question and the question comes from the line of David [indiscernible] from Berenberg.

Can you hear me?

Yes, David.

Yes. Just a couple of questions for me. First, during Q3, you mentioned the phasing of some project that was expected to reverse in Q4. This does not seem to have happened. Could you please provide more information on this and explain why it didn't go as expected? Secondly, as you mentioned during the presentation, Football World Cup will start in June 2026. I know that you are not giving specific guidance for 2026 today, but is it reasonable to expect Betclic to deliver a strong performance similar to the 2024 when the results were boosted by the European Football Championship. And finally, I would like to come back to yesterday announcement about All3Media. You will continue to fully consolidate the new entity and new accounts, which I assume means you will keep managerial control. Who will have the final say on major operational decision or any future M&A decisions?

Thank you. I will take your 2 last questions. Maybe I'll leave the first to Sophie, but I'll start with your last question. Yes, we have governance rights that allow us to consolidate and then to control the company. But of course, it's a 50-50 partnership, which means that when it comes to a significant M&A, if we were to do a large M&A deal, of course, we would need to agree with our partners at the sense of being partners. Of course, then -- but as you can see, it's really -- we keep, as you say, the operational drive and also the fact that Marco Bassetti is going to be the CEO of the combined entity. I think it gives the sense of the fact of how it will happen. On your second question about World Cup, yes, that's -- in this business, every 2 years, you have a big event. World Cup is even bigger than Euro, where people are getting more interested in watching the games, in betting and there's -- it becomes the actuality of everyone to speak about the World Cup, et cetera. So that's a very strong moment for engagement and increasing the revenues. And there's no reason why 2026 should be different from the, I would say, the even years that we have, and it will be true also for typical, which will also have a boost. But that's why we announced previously that we were not going to start the integration of Betclic and Tipico before the World Cup. We -- today, our teams in Betclic, and I'm sure it's the same at Tipico, they are completely focused to prepare this event because it means to prepare new features in the application and to have everything ready to make the most of this event. Maybe, Sophie, on the first question.

Yes. So yes, we mentioned the phasing in terms of commissioning and delivery of the shows during the Q3. And that's also why we said that we would be on the low digit -- low single digit in terms of revenue growth. During the Q4, as I mentioned during the presentation, the clients were still cautious in terms of commissioning, but we achieved this -- well, we finally grew by 0.4% our revenue, which is in this tough market, a good performance. And also, we are very confident in 2026 because we expect, as mentioned earlier by Francois, an increase in the growth of our revenue. So we are more positive, and we will see a higher growth of this revenue in 2026.

We will take our next question. And the question comes from the line of Annick Maas from Bernstein.

So my question is also on the midterm expectations of the content growth market. I think -- I mean, you just told us that you expect them to -- these revenues to grow in 2026. But I guess if you think about it midterm, previously, you talked about mid-single-digit growth, and that was in light of streamers already optimizing their spend. But what comes, I feel more and more clear, at least across all of the European broadcasters is that programming costs are much more contained, not only going into '26, but all the broadcasters speak about programming costs being contained also midterm. So I was just kind of interested to understand how you are thinking about the content growth market beyond '26.

I have a good news, Annick. You just have 3 weeks to wait for that because we -- that's exactly what we are going to talk about in our strategic update. So we will have an updated view on what we see for the next year. Of course, it will include our acquisitions, but it's not just a mechanical inclusion of our acquisitions. We will give you our best view on the future on the occasion of this update on March '26.

Your next question comes from the line of [indiscernible].

My first question was just on the Entertainment segment. You initially guided for EBITDA to be slightly declining in Q4, but it's turned out to be flat due to some margin expansion. Can you just explain how you're able to achieve this margin expansion in Q4?

I don't remember that we said anything about the margin in Q4. The margin is not -- it's a wild animal in a way because it's not the same margin depending on the type of programs you have. As Sophie was mentioning, for example, I think a good example here is the fact that when you deliver some scripted show, big scripted show as a streamer, there's a better margin in production, but also you lose some revenues on distribution. So it's -- the margin can be a little bit moving. And -- but if you look at our track record, I would say it's moving by 1% or 1.5%. But all in all, in average, it has remained very consistent. Here, this year, we believe the margin is a little bit higher than, I would say, the normal, but it's linked to the type of products we have delivered to the market. But there's nothing special about our margin in Q4...

Got it. That's very helpful. And then the last question for me was, do you see any kind of disruption from the conflict in the Middle East, particularly thinking particularly towards your Entertainment segment and more so your live events segment. Just thinking if you have any kind of major events in the pipeline in the Middle East, which could potentially be affected with the current conflict.

Yes. So of course, we are following and monitoring the situation closely. And in fact, currently, in the Middle East, as you know, it's time for Ramadan. So we had no events planned at this time of the year. It's not a busy time of the year. So for the moment, we don't have really an impact on our business. But then, of course, it will depend how long it will last. 2026, our live events business has a lot of strong production already planned. Of course, I was talking about the Olympic Games in Milan, which is already done. We also have the ceremony of the World Cup in Americas during the summer. So we -- if the war lasts long, which, of course, none of us hope, it can have an impact on our live business. But today, it's too early to say. We'll update accordingly.

And are you able to guide just roughly what percentage of revenue for the entertainment business, what percentage comes from the Middle East as a region?

It's -- no, it's -- we have a very little exposure to Middle East, in fact. That's only our ceremonies business is really -- has a significant exposure in the Middle East. For the rest of -- which is relatively smaller in the wall of our content production business. The rest of our content production business is very limited in the Middle East.

We will take our next question, and the question comes from the line of Anna Patrice from Berenberg.

Can you hear me?

Very well, Anna.

A couple of questions from my side. One is a follow-up on the growth in their entertainment business. So as my colleague said, there was previously guidance of mid- to high single-digit growth. Obviously, there were some delays, et cetera, expectation is challenging. What is your visibility for 2026? So you said that there should be some improvement and probably some growth, but what is the visibility? And what kind of growth should we expect on the underlying basis, so without acquisition in this segment? That's the first question. And the second question on the long-term incentive plan on the P&L line, the charges were lower than last year. So what should we expect going forward?

Sorry, on the last question, we didn't understand...

Long-term incentive plan. The charges were lower year-over-year. So what we should expect for this year on the cash flow and on the P&L base?

So as we explained on the LTIP expense, -- we expected this decrease, and we expect it to be also the case in the following years because this is a question of vesting period of the different LTIP plans. So we always mentioned a percentage of LTIP expense from 6% to 10% of the EBITDA. And this is -- it was on an average basis as it was low -- higher, sorry, than 10% in the past year. This is why now we are decreasing to have this average rate over 8 years. So we expect to have the same kind of percentage of EBITDA in the future. The first question is the visibility for -- well, if I understood well, the first question was the visibility for 2026 in terms of growth of content production business, right?

Yes, exactly. Yes.

So as we mentioned to you, we expect growth to be driven by increasing demand for nonscripted formats from mainly global streaming platforms as well as a solid pipeline of scripted deliveries. We expect margin to be somewhat lower than in 2025 because we had high-margin scripted shows delivered in 2025. And at the same time, we anticipate to have the same strong dynamic on the live events part in 2026.

Sorry. But on the content, we don't expect on the content and distribution, we don't expect acceleration growth acceleration.

We don't expect what, sorry?

Growth...

Acceleration. No. Well, we expect growth, but I don't know what you mean by that.

Flattish low single digit for the content.

We don't give this guidance, then we will explain in a...

But during our update on -- again, on March '26, you will have our best view on the market and how it evolves, et cetera, on the next year in 2026. We have a good visibility. That's why we can say that the growth will be good. But we don't want to give an update on 2026 given all the transactions we have.

There seems to be no further questions from the audio. If you wish to proceed with the webcast questions.

Yes. Thank you. So there are several questions about the liquidity of the stock and what are the projects on that.

Of course, it's our top priority as unfortunately, the stock cannot yet reflect the value of the company given the low level of trading. So we are working on it and the strategic update on March '26 is the first step we have to take to update the financials. So we'll update more when we can, but we are clearly working on it.

Then maybe another question about -- so can you please comment what are your plans about the existing independence call option? Should we assume the exercise is out of the picture of the 2 large corporate transactions in the last couple of months?

Yes. No, I think we -- the question to exercise the call on the independent will be linked only to what -- how we see the merits of exercising this call. Of course, the combination with All3Media and the fact that we have a strong partner with RedBird IMI, of course, they are the new partner. So they have also to agree on that, even if we can exercise their agreement. But I think the sense of the partnership is that we want also to discuss that with them. So there's no mechanics. It's not because we have done these transactions or because that we are not going to exercise and it's not because we are going to get some cash from the all 3 deal that we are going to exercise. So it's just we are discussing with the founders. We are considering the call exercise, and we have still time to make our decision, and we'll make our decision based on what we think is the best interest of the company in terms of operations and financials.

One question on AI. What is -- what could be the impact of AI on the content and production of studios?

So I think, of course, AI is a major innovation and a major element in many industries. So far, what we see, we are already using AI to optimize our production costs, to improve our efficiency. This is a work in progress like in many industries, but it's progressing well. On the second element, I would say, is we see a very potential positive impact of AI on our capacity to monetize our catalog. Clearly, we want to be in a situation to use AI to create automatically clipping desktops, highlights, et cetera, with just a prompt. And we have an immense catalog, which is today underexploited. It's a gold mine that we just used the surface. And AI is going to help us to monetize that far better. And of course, we are investing in that, and we are working on that. And with All3Media joining us, it will add catalog and capabilities. Then I think the longer-term view, I think AI is lowering the cost of making videos of making -- especially on the scripted side. So what we believe is that in this context, it enhances and it increase the importance of IP. IP is a very crucial element moving forward. So we have a lot of IP. We get -- we are going to get more IP with All3Media. And we believe that's a very strong asset to have in AI-powered world. So of course, nobody knows exactly what will happen in 5 years, et cetera, how it will develop, but we believe we are very well positioned for that. And if I just add -- sorry, just one more word. I think the deal with the Warner deal shows the value of IP. I think what has really driven to this fight between Netflix and Paramount is the quality and the breadth of IP of Warner. So I think it gives an idea of how the IP is becoming more and more valuable and important.

Can we have your view on margin evolution expected in '26 in gaming business given strong sports events, but tax impact in France...

Yes. I think the tax impact will have -- will weigh on our margin. What you can see is that in 2025, we have been able to manage that. Also, you have to balance with the marketing savings. So we will try as much as possible to maintain our margin despite this increase. But yes, mechanically, the impact is negative on our margin.

However, we anticipate continued momentum across -- well, across our Sportsbook and thanks to the larger sports season in 2026. So that's also why we anticipate to increase our payer basis and then to offset this impact.

We will take our next question on the audio. Your question comes from the line of David [indiscernible] from Berenberg.

Can you hear me?

Yes. We can hear you.

Sorry, I was muted. Just 2 quick follow-up questions for me. What was the marketing expenses as a percentage of sales in 2025 for the gaming side? And do you feel comfortable with the current Bloomberg consensus that forecast organic double-digit growth on the gaming side and mid-single-digit organic sales growth on the entertainment side in the next 2 to 3 years?

No, we don't want to do our strategic update now, David. So we are not going to answer to the second question. And actually, I think we are never going to comment on the consensus. Sophie, maybe on the first question.

So regarding the marketing expense, we are between 6% and 8% of the revenue, globally speaking without the points.

Maybe just one word about that. In France, the increase in taxes included an increase on tax on advertisement. So that has led also to a reduction of the advertisement in France.

There are no further questions. I would like to hand back for closing remarks.

So I don't have really closing remarks, except that we expect you will be there on the strategic update on March '26, but with so many questions on the -- what will be the growth coming going forward, I'm sure you will be there and we'll be very happy to update. So thank you for attending, and see you very soon.

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.