Altigen Communications, Inc. (ATGN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. So as I mentioned, Altigen is a communications company following microbics, sometimes people confuse our name with a biotech company. So we're very much not a biotech company and focused on the communications space. Well, we get started. I'm not going to read this. I'm sure you guys can all be better than I can, but I do want to do the obligatory safe harbor statement, which essentially will disclaim everything I'm going to tell you guys today. Okay. So I'm going to provide an overview. What I'll do in the presentation first to provide an overview of Altigen, who we are, what we do. I'll give a very brief background on how we've gotten to where we are today and focus the most of the presentation on where we're going. So we are very much focused on Microsoft stack, as they call it, for communications. So we develop products, and we also host many of those solutions in our data center or in Azure. Today, we have over 100,000 VoIP endpoints deployed and so VoIP endpoint can also consider -- be considered telephone, okay? And I have more than 20,000 subscribers today that are in our cloud. The difference being we have a lot of on-premise customers that have yet to migrate to the cloud. So our solutions include SIP Trunk. So folks aren't familiar with that. That's simply voiceover IP connecting your voice traffic to the public switch telephone network over the Internet and that we sell that solution as well as our applications. And our applications deal with unified communications, customer experience solutions as well as Contact Center as a service solutions. And in addition to building these products ourselves, we also provide the migration, customers migrate from something to what we have, deployment services as well as training and support. So we are based in Silicon Valley. And we have our European headquarters in the U.K., and we also have our Asia Pacific headquarters in Taipei,Taiwan. So real briefly on the financial summary, trailing 12 months revenues are $11.2 million. As Ian mentioned, just about $8 million of those are cloud revenues. So our cloud revenue multiple is about $6.1 million today when we look at our market cap. And we do have no debt, $6.4 million in the bank, and we have 23.4 million shares outstanding. So we have a 3-year growth target, which will conclude in at least for this period, we're talking today through the end of 2024 of 30% cumulative average revenue growth. And so how we're going to do that? We have a bunch of new solutions coming out, and I'll be talking to you guys about dealing with unified communications, contact center as well as customer experience. And these will allow us to enter some new and mostly high-growth markets. As you might imagine, from our positioning and building on top of the Microsoft stack [indiscernible] with Microsoft, that's creating many new business opportunities for us with Microsoft Teams. We also have a strategic partnership with Fiserv. If you're not familiar with Fiserv, this is a $15 billion financial services company. They sell pretty much everything you can imagine of financial services, but where our focus with them is on banks and credit unions where they offer software to automate the entire business operations of those financial institutions. And then finally, we concluded just about this time last year, an acquisition of a company called Blue Panda, which has brought some exciting new technology to us. We've also added several new key executives to really solidify the company and position us for growth going forward. So just real briefly from our background, and I've got a number of different pictures here. So I'm just going to go left to right because people do ask me, okay, why aren't you guys growing faster? What's going on here? Well, I started here in 2007, and we were very much a hardware-centric company. So we sold telephones. We sold computer servers. We sold boards. All kinds of low-profit margin hardware that drove our software to be able to sell a business telephone system. And I basically killed that and it took a little while to do it, though. And over time, we've eliminated all of the hardware. We've migrated first to all software. And as soon as we've got all software, then we could start enabling our solutions in the cloud. So if you look right -- pardon me left to right, it's a complete metamorphosis from 0 monthly recurring cloud revenue 10 years ago to substantial cloud revenue. And I guess I should have updated that at $7 million should be $7.7 million. But -- and no hardware revenue today. And with that, we've also generated company growth and most importantly, profits. We lost almost $2 million in that 2010 number and made over $1 million in 2010. So there's a big difference with the new business model. But this new business model, this is just a starting point for us, and I'll talk about that going forward. So by getting rid of the hardware, going to software, enabling our solutions in the cloud, we call the latter first business foundation. Here, now we're building upon this foundation with our new solutions, and I will talk about these new solutions. I'll also provide a brief overview on what these acronyms mean. We've optimized our organization across the board. We probably had about in the last year, something along the lines of 30% turnover. Now a lot of that is because we hired a bunch of new people. Some of it is because some of the folks in the old legacy organization weren't the right fit for our new cloud business. And we've also had a big focus on expanding our distribution in terms of recruiting Microsoft partners, expanding our relationship with Fiserv, which is still direct through their hundreds of account managers and a focus on direct enterprise sales as well. Something newer to the mix is strategic acquisitions. So we're evaluating a number of Microsoft partners right now to add into Altigen, looking for synergistic technical skills and the ability to cross into our customer base. So these combination of capabilities that are all coming together right now really create, I think, the perfect storm for us to drive new revenue growth going forward. So I mentioned I would just give you guys a brief overview on these different markets -- these different communications markets. So you've probably heard the term UCaaS, which stands for Unified Communications as a Service. And it used to just be called unified communications, but when companies started hosting their offering it as a cloud service, now with Unified Communications as a Service. The real business drivers for that, honestly, the #1 is there's still a lot of companies that have premise PBXs and it just doesn't make sense to maintain a premise PBX anymore on-premise in the customer's building. So organizations have been and will continue to migrate those premise PBXs to the cloud. In addition, in the old world, the PBX, you could do phone calls, and that was it. Now with the Unified Communications, it adds the ability for instant messaging, real-time presence as well as web conferencing where the same application and their effort is unified communications. And this has also taken off -- again, it's got a second growth spurt really because of COVID with now employees working from home, the need to have unified communications and step messaging, et cetera, is more important than ever. On the contact center side. Again, contact center as service contact center that everyone talks. But the big growth driver here, again, is companies would have spent millions of dollars implementing a contact center on-premise. Now they can go to the cloud and do implement that same solution for a few hundred dollars a month per contact center agent. So that's the #1 driver. It's more efficient and more cost-effective to have a cloud solution and on-prem. The other big driver is customers realize -- our companies realizing the need to be more customer responsive. Customers today don't just want to call a call center like an airline reservation center just call, they want to be able to e-mail you. They want to be able to web chat, SMS, even post social media messages, right, and get a response. And that's what the omnichannel component is. It's taking all the different types of media, bundling it together and distributing it to the appropriate person in the company so we can respond to our customer request. And similar to the PBX, the big -- one of the big drivers, again, to create a growth spurt was built with work at home. The newest market opportunity and to me, the fastest-growing opportunity, is customer experience as a service. So now that companies are migrating to unified communication solutions. They've deployed a contact center in many cases. Now they're looking to how can we better serve our customers. And imagine a customer today, right, using an iPhone, how can they communicate with a company: they can call, they can e-mail, they can web chat, they can SMS, they can post a social media message, they can use something like WeChat. They have lots of options. In fact, the customer has more options to contact a company than a company has options to respond. And this is where Altigen comes in. I'll talk about that in a little bit. So the companies are realizing they need to be able to satisfy their customer demands for digital engagement experience and then have analytics so they can see how customers are reacting with them and how they can then improve that customer experience or customer journey going forward because I think we all know without seeing any studies, it's 10x harder to acquire a new customer just to maintain an existing customer. And I think some of the CIOs are getting smarter today and realizing that. Okay. So with that, Communication is one-on-one. I'm going to talk a little bit more about what's going on in the market today and where Altigen fits in. So the traditional business communications environment really consists of two technologies. On the left-hand side, we have unified communications. It was a PBX, as I mentioned that PBX is now migrated to Unified Communications or UC. And that's the general purpose. Most of the employees use that as a business communication system. On the right, we've got the contact center. And the contact center is designed companies didn't have a better way. What if a customer needs to contact us and has all kinds of questions once to place an order, make a reservation, do whatever, let's just create a group of people completely -- essentially completely separate from the rest of the organization to do nothing but deal with customer request, and that's called the contact center. But it's only a small percentage of the employees in most enterprises 5% or 10% of the people sit in the contact center. And the reason it doesn't get any bigger rollout even though it can perform all sorts of nice omnichannel capabilities is expensive. And so on average, it's $150 a month to $300 a month per user, they can get much more expensive than that as well. So it really compared to a PBX, 10x more expenses which limits its ability to be rolled out in the enterprise. So that is my comment that there is a significant functionality and price gap between these 2 existing technologies in use by business today. So what's the new trend? And really, the trend is for maximizing the customer experience, 9 out of 10 CIOs today in any sized enterprise, midsized to very large enterprise. This maximizing the customer experience, digital transformation, digital customer engagement, all these terms that essentially mean the same thing. It's on the roadmap for the CIOs. Everyone needs to get there. And so what does that mean? It means the ability to enable all of your customer-facing employees. When I say customer-facing sales, marketing, customer service, even for large organizations, their customers are internal. So IT help desk and accounting. They all have customers to serve. And maximizing the customer experience, gives these customer-facing employees the ability to engage with all of their customers using the customer's preferred communications channel. If I want to SMS somebody and get a response, I don't want the company force me to make a phone call, right? So that's the idea. Let's the customer choose either want to communicate and the company needs to be able to respond in like fashion. And so we -- I call that digital customer engagement. That's where Altigen is coming in and attacking this problem. And as I said, I believe this is the hottest trend in business communications today. And what we have to address that that we're just now rolling out as CoreInteract. This came from our Blue Panda acquisition and it is the first and today only integrated digital customer engagement platform for Microsoft Teams. And we'll put that to our other platform that I'll discuss in a little bit. But right now, it's designed for Microsoft Teams to take Teams to a full digital customer engagement platform. And I have some stats on Teams, but I want to imagine everyone on this call is aware that the growth of Teams has just been nothing short of unbelievable. And so that creates a great opportunity for us. And so our digital customer engagement solution is targeted at these customer-facing or customer engaging employees, we automate them with the tools they need to engage with the customers. And the price points are right. We delivered 80% of the functional at the contact center at 20% of the cost. That's our mission. And we're in the process of accomplishing that now so we can get the significant rollouts in the company not 5% or 10% but 20%, 30%, 40% of the employees on the digital customer engagement platform. So in addition to CoreInteract, yes, we do have an unified communication solutions called MaxCloud. And yes, we have an omnichannel contact center solution that's called FrontStage. So collectively, when I say uniquely, or my title here, there's not another company anywhere in the world that I'm aware of that addresses all 3 of these markets with their solution set. And so that's where we're focused on, really focus on digital customer engagement. But in order to do that, you have to meet the other pieces as well, so you can go into a company and say, yes, I can handle all of your communication requirements from basic unified communications through digital customer engagement, through the omnichannel contact center. Now one of the reasons we're so excited here is because these products are just coming out. So everything we've done to date, although revenues, all the cloud growth is 100% based on our old technology. Everything we're looking at here is based on the new solutions that we're releasing, and you can see that release states here. So as we get these products out to market and start gaining momentum, we're going to see -- we're going to be rewarded with revenue growth. So real quickly, I just want to touch on the opportunity with Microsoft Teams and you guys are all communications experts. We've been talking -- for folks that have been listening to the earnings calls, we've been talking about the ability to add our applications to Teams and have been dependent on the Microsoft communications APIs or the graph APIs for some time. Those are now available. So now that they're available, okay, Katy bar the door, we can roll our solutions out. And where are we going to roll them out to? Well, Teams today has over 650,000 organizations that have deployed Teams, nearly 150 million users using Teams. And I talk about the daily active users, Microsoft as we come out with a monthly active user, which to use an oxymoron, don't know you're active in few monthly. So we're going to have focus on the daily active users, which is a whole bunch and result in about -- and this is just from a target market perspective, about 225 (sic) [ 223 ] users per customer on average. And I'll talk about where we're going to zero it on this market because I can't address all 650,000 companies globally overnight. But our solutions, and I'm not going to -- unless anybody has any questions, I'm just going to lightly touch on these. We provide the SIP Trunk communication services, phone service, if you will, for Teams. We provide the omnichannel contact center and then very soon here, as we're rolling out our CoreInteract, the enterprise, our digital customer engagement. I'm showing you the average, the ARPC is the average revenue per customer. Every customer doesn't choose every solution. So if I try to summarize it here at the bottom and saying what you can expect from a Teams' customer is probably something on the ore of about $3,750 a month for every Teams -- on average for every Teams customer that we close. So that's opportunity number one. Opportunity number two is Fiserv and Fiserv with the Altigen solutions really becomes a fintech play because it is a financial services offering with the integrated communications capabilities. So -- okay. So the opportunity with Fiserv. Again, I have mentioned there's -- this is a $15 billion organization. We've been working with them for some time. They have -- many of our solutions integrated directly into their own product offerings. We have an exclusive distribution agreement with them. So Fiserv sells the Altigen solutions on a white label basis into their 10,000 financial institution customers and they sell through the direct sales force. So today, we have our solutions and used by nearly 3,000 of those, not all of our solutions, some of our solutions. So there's still tremendous upside. And those include our bank by phone applications today as the majority of it, but we're also rolling out -- in the process of rolling out with Fiserv as we speak, a new secure access SIP Trunk service that we can also provide in addition to the -- and again, the SIP Trunk service, it's a phone service. We're adding into it and we just have added into it, the ability for caller verification because there's so much fraud going on with companies now -- not companies, maybe some are companies, but scam artists that call in spoof the caller ID of the account holder and somehow get through and get access to the account and, of course, the money is gone. And so we help prevent that by proving that the callers the caller before they get through to their accounts. That's what that service does. And then, of course, Fiserv also sells today are PBX. They are moving to our new UCaaS solution. They sell today a limited version of our contact center. In fact, they have -- but they're moving to the new contact center and in fact, I have one customer deployed on the new contact center FrontStage today. And so again, in a similar fashion, the average revenue that I can expect from a Fiserv customer is about $3,500 per month. Final piece is our legacy base. We have much customers, we've been around for a long time. So we have about 500 customers today that sit in our cloud with about 20,000 subscribers, as I mentioned. We still have another 1,000 customers that we haven't yet been able to convince and move to the cloud. So they're still using our software, our phone system on-premise. And they have about -- collectively about 40,000 users. So our target with our new UC platform is to get these companies migrated as many as we can into the cloud and grow that cloud base. In addition, because our solution is very much Microsoft centric and we have a lot of resellers that call on the SMB market, and they sell Microsoft solutions, there's a very large base of Microsoft customers out there using Office 365, which we integrate with that we can also sell to. And I'd say we can sell to that would be through our channel. So on the SMB side, our typical customers between 20 and 100 employees, I think we averaged about 35 employees on this side of the business. They all Microsoft customers, every 1 of them, and that's what they like about our system. And for the new customers, we're converting customers that have on-premise phone systems were migrated into cloud. You can see the solutions, the contact center is much -- these new cast numbers are lower than you see on Teams and Fiserv and the contact center is lower than you would see on Teams and Fiserv are much smaller customers. So this average revenue -- monthly revenue per customer is about $650, just to give you an idea of start new customer, I would expect to gain $650 a month as we bring them on board. All right. So how does this all come together, what does this mean? All of our solutions, FrontStage is the CoreInteract and the MaxCloud they all have integration points. They're all delivered from our cloud. And based on the features required by the customer, we can sell these into our teams, audience, Fiserv base or the Altigen base. So it gives us a lot of flexibility based on whatever the customer needs in terms of communications, we've got an integrated solutions set to meet those requirements. So for Microsoft Teams, target market, I just want to give you guys an idea that we came a larger company. So a larger company to us is we -- on a direct basis, we focus on 1,000 to 5,000 employees. Our partners, we have a lot of Microsoft partners. They tend to be in the 100 to 500 space. So I expand this here to say between the direct -- our direct organization and our channel partners, we sell the companies between 100 and 5,000 employees. You can say we have over 60 Microsoft partners right now that we've recruited, mostly in the last year with these solutions. That's going to continue to grow. And we also have 6 enterprise sales managers. And as we roll these solutions out, they're going to target the larger and the higher end of that spectrum. The Fiserv, they have, I mentioned on a previous slide, about 10,000 customers financial -- more than 10,000 customers, with 10,000 that are financial institutions. And out of that, there's about 8,000 of those that fall into some are kind of small, too small to us with, and some are quite large, let's say, the Bank of Americas of the world. So our focus with Fiserv is in this SMB to mid-market segment of roughly 25 to 250 employees. We -- I don't know that we have any smaller than 25. We have some customers that have 1,000 employees with Fiserv today, but the majority fall into this category. And our distribution channel is 100% through Fiserv. They have hundreds of field account managers that are selling our products. They're sold as a Fiserv product, you would never hear the Altigen name, it's Fiserv. And the beauty of that is they also get compensated -- those sales people get compensated as if it were a Fiserv product, which means they're going to go sell it. So as we continue to roll these new solutions out, we'll get more and more traction from Fiserv. And finally, we look at our own legacy base. This is how we got our start. Yes, this is still a good cash out for us. This market is not going to grow as fast as the others, but it's profitable and it generates cash. Those are 2 pretty good pretty good terms, I think, to live by. If we did nothing else but be profitable to generate cash, we could be doing worse. But we're going to use that to fund the growth businesses. And you can see, again, I talked about the size of customers we sell to. This is largely distributed. We own any direct business with these customers. It's largely through the Altigen legacy resellers that one that have been around for years. And we also see a lot of Microsoft partners that want to sell our UCaaS solution because they have smaller customers and Teams, is just a little more than their customers willing to buy off. So that was kind of a surprise to us as we see the Microsoft partners interested in our UCaaS solution instead of Teams, but that's great. We can go either way. We can support both. So because of this, that we do both channel and direct, and we've got such a large distribution network within the Fiserv sales team, we have a model that will readily scale and rapidly scale as we move into the mid-market enterprise sales just by sheer volume of being able to leverage this channel that we've built up. Okay. This is my summary slide, guys. So I'm missing something on here. The unprecedented launch of new solutions are fueling our growth. I'm not sure what happened to this slide here, this title. But we talked about before that we've got a 30% growth target over the next 3 years. And yes, and this is the new Altigen. If folks that have been familiar with us for years, so what we were doing before and following what we're doing now, this is a completely new opportunity, right, leveraging all these new solutions and new markets that are all coming together really for the perfect storm, as I said. But in addition to these new solutions, now we have instead still, we've added new key executives. We've upgraded. We realigned our personnel. We've doubled our product development team so that we're prepared to go after these new opportunities. And in addition, we are actively looking at Microsoft products for -- products -- Microsoft partners, excuse me, for acquisition because I need technical skill sets. And we need -- I need more salespeople. So we've got Microsoft partners that are very good. They're focused on the same areas we are. And they have the sales and technical skill sets that have with customer base that we can leverage and cross-sell into. And so we're looking at that and those that deliver the greatest synergy for us and can add accretive value to us, then we'll look at doing transactions with them. So I think when this all comes together, we're going to see this new Altigen is also going to result in very new and exciting growth opportunities. Okay. So that is my presentation. I'm going to go ahead and stop my screen share now. I believe we can open it up for Q&A.

Thank you, Jerry, for that presentation. First of all, first question is I believe several of your competitors such as 8x8 and RingCentral, so that they integrate with Microsoft Teams. Can they do what that you do?

Well, I hate to call them liars, but they're not truthful. So let me just put it that way. Their integration with Teams means that they're using their own platform, they're simply using the teams we say it's using the Teams application to deliver their own calls. It has pretty much nothing to do with Teams. But some people might believe them. There's a big difference, and maybe I can explain that, Mike. In order to integrate Teams, you need to use Teams phone system, transport voice. 8x8 and RingCentral they use their own phone system, transport voice. They already have their own UC components, they're instant messaging, presence videoconferencing. They don't use Teams for that. They use their own. So there is no really integration between the platforms. They simply plug their application into Teams and color integration, but it's still completely an 8x8 or RingCentral platform. And the customers are wise to that.

So you've referenced resellers in place and pipeline opportunities in past conference calls. There was something like 58 resellers and over 100 opportunities in the August call. Can you talk for a minute about how and why the resellers are engaging with Altigen? What kind of leverage that gives you for new revenue? And lastly, what is the typical sales cycle for closing opportunities now that the Microsoft product is nearing launch?

Okay. That's -- is that 1 question? I'll pick those off one at a time. Yes. So our partner channel is continuing to grow. The pipelines continue to grow. The average sales cycle, Mike, I'm going to tell you 6 months because that is the traditional -- I mean, some partners, are they bringing a qualified opportunity to have to work it longer. Most of the partners, they treat us and utilize us as they're subject matter expert, right? So we come in and do everything pretty much. I won't call it quite light label because the company their customer knows who we are, but we are their strategic business partner. And the reason they want to work with us is because they are not experts in this field. We are. So because we provide the SIP communications, the phone service, we provide the contact center, we provide the call recording all the applications that a business needs to run Teams phone system in addition to what Microsoft provides, we provide that. And there's no other company that does that. So if they don't work with us and they want to be involved with Teams phone system, they have to go pick their own partners and then couple together these different products to support them on behalf of the customer, which is not their daily wage so that's why there has been working with us.

So I believe this question is more of a trailing historical question. How fast is cloud recurring revenue growing on a short-term basis? And then how difficult are comps as we lap the COVID period?

What's the last part of the question, Mike?

How difficult are the comps as we lap the COVID period?

What does that mean?

I think what they're saying is for quarter-over-quarter, Q1 next year versus Q1 this year, how hard is it going to be, not specifically in that quarter, but in general?

Sure. Okay. No, I think we have -- I'll sort of answer this a little bit of reverse order. I think we've pretty much experienced the worst of COVID, where I think that we've talked about in the past calls that we did lose a number of subscribers. And I didn't lose so many subscribers from a company, I lost companies because the [indiscernible] in their out of business. That was our biggest challenge. Most of that has been washed through the system. But the cloud revenue growth going forward, I'm not looking for great cloud revenue growth out of our current PBX product. It's is what it is, but I'm looking for great revenue growth out of the new solutions and of the UC upgrade to that. So I would say on a very short-term basis, yes, we're going to see moderate growth, flat to moderate -- we may see positive flat to moderate growth. On a longer-term basis and I'm saying longer term in FY '22, we will see the new products kick in and growth accelerating.

Okay. So the next question, I'm going to read it verbatim and then I'm going to try to give it a different spin slightly, how many customers or potential customers have said that they will switch to your digital engagement solution after the Altigen API and Teams is ready? So I think what they're looking for is what kind of conversion rate maybe do you think you might see?

Well, that API is ready. So nobody would have said that in basket because it could even look -- we couldn't do anything until it's out there. So what we have today probably have around 30 or 40 customers that you either put a small pilot in or have purchased the product somewhere in that neighborhood. We were the tip of the iceberg, right? This is getting out there..But there's a lot of traction and a lot of momentum because nobody else does what we do. Now I should point out to -- maybe this is too much information, but I should point out that the initial release is voice only. So we're doing a nice job and a better job than Microsoft does of routing and queuing voice call content to sales. I'm going to route that to the appropriate person on the sales growth. What we're rolling out this quarter is SMS, web chat and e-mail and hopefully, also social media that will add into that. So all of these different message types, this digital media is coming this quarter and thus we have a lot of customers looking for that as well. So between the 2, yes, I think it's really time. So I think it's not if, but when we're going to see this really take off.

So another question from someone is with the Fiserv opportunity, how easy is do you believe penetration of those individual opportunities are going to be?

Well, I guess nothing is easy. We have the solutions now that Fiserv ones right? And we've had a little bit of a struggle in the past because some of our technology -- our legacy technology was good enough, I guess, acceptable, maybe is a better word. But the new solutions that we have rolling out are ideal and some of the other stuff is kind of holding Fiserv back. So while I don't think it's easy. They do have a captive audience. They have -- they own these. I don't want to get them into trouble with monopolistic practices. So I'll change the word on, but they have a tremendous influence over these customers that they're selling millions of dollars a year of solutions into. And they do the integration and they pay us, but they offer and only offer the integration to the Altigen solutions from these communications products. So it's very difficult now that we have what they need for a competitor to go beat Fiserv at their own game to sell those solutions.

So I believe you said earlier in the presentation that Altigen has an exclusive relationship with Fiserv. Does that mean that Altigen is the only provider that Fiserv uses?

Virtually the only provider they have on the very high end as a result of their merger or acquisition with First Data Resources. We have some other solutions that they've put together, not a single vendor to try to deal with it. They're very large customers. And again, I'm talking about the Bank of Americas and Citi banks. But for the mid-market and for those companies that I identified, yes, we are the only solution set that they market in those companies that segment, which is the biggest segment.

Okay. There's two questions I'm going to sort of combine into one. The first part is can you summarize the last 2 quarters regarding the flattening of revenue. And the follow-up question to that, that someone else asks, is what do you say in response to inpatient investors who believe that Altigen is in danger becoming a perpetual wait until next quarter's story?

Well, I'll start with that one. Yes, that's my fault because I thought I was going to have the solutions out earlier. And so what I can say is, yes, we didn't -- I didn't deliver guys like I thought it would. But now these solutions around the doorstep so it's going to be a different story going forward. I can't tell how quickly the revenue is going to run, but again, we said we're going to have the solutions launched and this will be different than what we thought we were going to have, let's say, a year ago. The flattening of revenue is two things, right? We've got -- our legacy product is pretty basic, right? It's not even UC, it's PBX, right? We can take phone calls, can't do the other things. And we've done a nice job, I think, of converting those premise customers to the cloud. That's where the revenue growth has come from and the profitability. But it's slowing because we're not -- that particular solution isn't competitive with what people want to buy today. Thus, therefore, we're launching a new UC platform, which will be available end of October. So that will put us in great shape as far as that so we're going to be extremely competitive with the companies you mentioned earlier for a lot lower price point with that solution. The other element that caused the flattening of revenue, so they didn't have these solutions, was COVID. And when we lost these customers, there's pretty much no way to recover once we went out of business. So it is -- we are certainly dependent on the new solutions. It's not like we're crossing our fingers and hoping this will happen. We've been working on this for a long time. I was a little too aggressive on my target dates, but I think we're going to see it different going forward.

Okay. Thank you, Jerry. Appreciate the time this morning. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for having me, and thanks for the questions, everyone. I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.