Altri, SGPS, S.A. (ALTR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. We welcome you to the Altri Full Year 2024 Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand the conference over to Mr. Rui Cesario, Head of IR of the Altri Group. Now your line is open.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us today for Altri's 2024 Results Conference Call. We'll review our financial performance, market conditions, operational highlights, future perspectives, followed by Q&A at the end. To do this, we have with us today, Mr. Jose Pina, the Group's CEO; and Mr. Miguel Silva, the Group's CFO. I'll hand over now to Mr. Jose Pina.

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for attending Altri's conference call. We're always pleased to host this call with the investors and analysts to share Altri's results and talk about the market environment and future development. If you turn to Slide #2, we comment on some of the main highlights of 2024 in the fourth quarter of 2024. Global pulp demand decreased by 1%. The hardwood pulp demand registered an increase of 1% after record in 2023. China was more volatile for the strongest start of the year, followed by a slowdown by midyear and a take-up near year-end. Europe and North America were more stable with a positive evolution during the whole of 2024. Demand for dissolving pulp continues sound with high single-digit positive trends in both volumes and prices. EBITDA Increased by 59% to EUR 218 million in 2024, a margin of 26%. That compares to 17% in 2023. The favorable free cash flow generation allowed for a 40% net debt reduction in the year to EUR 214 million, placing our net debt-to-EBITDA ratio at 1x. On diversification and growth projects front, and as already mentioned in the previous quarter, Altri is developed in acetic acid and furfural projects at our industrial unit Caima with an estimated IRR above 15% and an EBITDA margin near 80%. The launch is expected for the first quarter of 2026. At Biotek, the full migration of BHKP production into dissolving pulp by end of 2026 is going ahead according to plans. On the Gama project, we had some positive news with Xunta de Galícia issuing a favorable environmental declaration about the project, confirming it fully complies with all required environmental regulations. Additionally, Altri signed a contract to acquire Greenalia Forest and Greenalia Logistics, a strategic step to increase our presence in Galícia on the fiber supply side. Moving on to Slide #3. Global pulp demand was slightly negative in 2024. The hardwood pulp ended 2024 with a positive evolution after being negative in the 9 months through 2024. Europe and North America posted stable double-digit growth numbers through 2024, while China posted a negative evolution, but improving the last quarter of the year. The multiyear trends of hardwood gaining market share to softwood continues and may increase further with the expected challenges for Canadian softwood producers. In Slide #4, global demand for dissolving pulp continues to grow well above demand for paper pulp with volumes increasing by 6.3%. In Slide #5, inventories at European ports have been stable during the second half of 2024, in line with the historic average of 1.4 to 1.5 million tonnes. In Slide #6, average fixed prices for hardwood pulp in Europe were 18% higher in 2024 versus 2023, while 20% higher in the fourth quarter versus the same quarter the previous year. However, the peak price has reached in July at $1,440 per tonne and has corrected following the same trend in China with an average correction of 20% during the fourth quarter of 2024 comparing with the third quarter. Pulp prices were at a level of USD 1,000 at the end of December of 2024. If you turn now to Slide #7. We see dissolving pulp prices with a stable and low volatile trend, having grown by 9% in the quarter year-on-year and 1% in the last quarter of the year versus the same quarter -- versus the previous quarter in 2024. These prices are net and sourced from China. So now fully comparable to the European BHKP prices that includes commercial discounts. At Slide #8, we show our production and volumes sold in 2024, which are quite stable when comparing with the previous year. Going into Slide 9. Volumes sold maintained a similar pattern when looking at sales per region. Well, the end use is led by tissue with dissolving pulp slowly increasing its way. I'd now like to pass the call to Miguel Silver, the Group CFO, who will comment on the main financial highlights of 2024.

Thanks, Jose. In Slide #10, we can see slower volumes from a less dynamic market in the second half of 2024 had its impact on pulp prices in the fourth quarter, making revenues to decrease by 10% and EBITDA declined by 32% in the fourth quarter of 24% when comparing it with the third quarter of '24. In Slide 11, looking at the accumulated numbers for 2024, the picture is quite different with revenues growing by 9% and EBITDA by 59%. Going to Slide #12, we can see that Altri ends 2024 with a 26% EBITDA margin, a more normalized level when comparing to 2023. We believe it should be worth noting that in a quarter as the fourth with the lower price point of the year, we have been able to achieve an EBITDA margin above 20%. In Slides 13 and 14, and although there was a decrease in profitability in the fourth quarter of '24 versus the previous quarter, the full year results were quite positive with EBIT growing by more than 100% and net profit reaching EUR 107 million, more than doubling the 2023 results. On Slide 15, we have some comments on the cost side. Cash costs decreased by 3% in 2024 versus 2023, slight better than our forecast of stability mentioned during the last quarters. The incident in the cogeneration turbine at Celbi had an economic impact of around EUR 6 million during the fourth quarter of '24. We confirm the turbine to resume operations at the end of March. We have an additional positive nonrecurring effect of EUR 2.5 million related to a premium attributed through the electricity sales tariff for Caima's new biomass boiler. Wood prices have been fairly stable during 2024 with a slight decrease during the quarter due to a better mix, less extra Iberian imports. Chemical prices have been trending downwards since 2023, almost every quarter. However, there was an increase in the fourth quarter of '24, that is likely to still have some impact in the first quarter of '25 due to some supply issues with caustic soda. In Slide 16 refers to net debt reduction of EUR 36 million during the fourth quarter of '24, a 14% reduction in the quarter. The sound EBITDA and the strict working capital management were also helped by lower investments. In Slide 17, we have Altri's net debt evolution during the full year of 2024. Net debt decreased by 40% during the year making the net debt-to-EBITDA ratio in 2024 to stand at 1x. The EUR 143 million total cash flow generation in 2024 is a consequence of solid EBITDA, lower investments and strict working capital management and also reimbursement from the tax authorities of about EUR 25 million of income tax paid in excess in 2023. 2025 should be different as we do not have the tax effect and CapEx requirements should be higher. I will now pass the word back to Jose Pina.

Thank you, Miguel. Slide #18 mentions Altri's ROCE level in 2024, reaching 23%. The current level of return on capital employed is already above Altri's historic level of 18% and above the industry's average. In Slide #19, we share an update on some sustainability developments and efforts of the group during the quarter. Altri launched a program with Lisbon's Catolica Lisbon School of Business & Economics. This was the ALP program for almost 10% of its workforce from all of the group's companies with the goal to promote both personal and professional growth. We also organized the first-time event with all wood suppliers, and our aim was to promote solid and transparent relationships with our key suppliers who play a significant role in our value chain. The Altri Group was also in Baku, Azerbaijan taking part in the United Nations Climate Change Conference COP29. This is a statement of the group's commitment not only sustainability, but also the climate action, which contributes to achieving the goals set by the Paris Agreement. In Slide 20, and considering some highlights on key projects, on -- although we're a few quarters from completion, we shared the main figures on the acetic acid and furfural production units at Caima. Total CapEx investment of EUR 25 million, partially financed by green funds, should return a stable annual EBITDA of $5 million with an expected IRR of 15% or above depending on the level of subsidies. In Slide 21, we mentioned some figures of the projects to fully migrate Biotek's BHKP production into dissolving pulp. We highlight the average selling price of dissolving pulp to be 41% higher on average in the last 5 years with an expected operating cost 10% to 15% above BHKP's cost. Slide #22, we have some highlights on the Gama project, which includes an expected CapEx of about EUR 1 billion and an IRR estimated to be above 10%. You turn finally to Slide #23. And looking ahead, we have seen some reactivation in demand near the end of the year in China, which has been supporting the increase in pulp prices during the first quarter of 2025. We have good indications from Shanghai Pulp Week that the latest price increase announcement should be implemented. So from a lease price in Europe of $1,000 per tonne on BHKP at the end of December, prices may move by the end of March to $1,220 with the implementation of the last announcement of $60 in March. Nevertheless, the January increase included the relevant inflation in commercial discounts, which are expected to impact prices. On the cost side, we maintain our view of stable cash cost or slightly increase for 2025. On the diversification and growth projects, we should start producing higher volumes of dissolving pulp out of Biotek in 2025, with likely volumes to reach around 50,000 tonnes this year. On Project Gama, the attribution is a favorable environmental declaration by the Xunta makes us believe the integrated environmental license could be announced in the near future. In conclusion, Altri had a strong 2024 with more stable market conditions and improved financial performance. We expect to have further progress on our growth projects during 2025 and focus to executing our strategic plan, optimize operations and deliver value to our shareholders. Thank you for your attention, and we look forward to your questions.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Q&A session starts now. [Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Manuel Lorente from Santander.

So the first question [indiscernible] on the cost. I think [indiscernible] moving parts, bring in the positive evolution in cash cost in the fourth quarter standalone. My perception is that the main contributor of this positive performance is [indiscernible] with a better load mix in Iberian Peninsula. So I mean can you elaborate a little bit more about the firm because this constraint [indiscernible] somehow with the sector trends [indiscernible].

Okay. Manuel, if I understood the question correctly, you were asking about cash cost evolution and underlying factors that impacted in 2024. So the ones you've mentioned clearly have taken a key role. I mean we've seen stable chemicals. We've had, I would say, a better fiber cost base purely on the mix that we've had. And at the same time, we have very good, efficient operations. We maintain a lot of discipline in terms of our fixed costs. And therefore, we ultimately achieved a very favorable result.

Okay. And regarding upcoming trends, when you're mentioning that you should expect cash costs for 2025, you are expecting taking into consideration in the last quarter or the full year?

So for 2025, I think you want to be looking at the full year. I mean our main target is to keep these cash costs year-on-year fairly stable. There will be, as you would expect, some variation through the quarters. If I look at the first quarter, we don't have yet the cogeneration turbine yet operational, which we will through the end of this month. That always brings a little bit of instability on the production level. On the other hand, energy, in particular, natural gas is somewhat slightly elevated. But we intend the overall combination of continued discipline and continue to drive operational efficiency. As I said, our expectation is for the year to be pretty stable at the same level as last year, even though you may see some slightly, I would say, inflation in the first quarter, but eventually compensated in subsequent quarters from what we're seeing right now.

I see. And probably the last one from my side. CapEx, on the other hand, has been a little bit muted in this last part of the year. Should we expand -- expect a rebound in 2025 because of the, let's say, the speed up of the new diversification projects? So what are your thoughts regarding CapEx trends for 2025?

Yes. Well, timing always plays a role. So we've had clearly -- we were very determined to keep a good control of CapEx last year. It's obviously dependent on the investment cycle. We are going through an investment cycle with several projects ongoing. So if you look at 2025, I think you'll probably see, based on our current expectation, CapEx will be in the range of EUR 50 million to EUR 60 million, which will be to complete the ongoing investment projects that we have been talking to you about.

The next question comes from Alberto Espelosin from JB Capital.

I have 2, if I may. First one is on the sector, if you could please share your views on demand trends by region and end use? And how are these BHKP dynamics reflected in your order book and volume expectations for 2025. And the second one is on the Gama project. Following the recent approval of the environmental permit, could you remind us of the expected time line going forward? I assume the next key milestone is securing project financing. How is that progressing? And have there been any developments on that front?

Thank you, Alberto. So starting with your first question in terms of the sector. We've seen through 2024, some significant developments in the overall pulp market was, I would say, positive from the second half of '23 through the first half of 2024. As we commented in November during our third quarter results, we were seeing stabilization of demand in China during the fourth quarter, and prices seem to be stabilizing near marginal cost of integrated producers. In Europe, I think it was better than in 2024 versus China. But clearly, the rapid decrease in pulp price in China in the summer pushed some of our paper customers to delay some of their orders as long as prices were on a converging path to the Chinese prices and eliminating any arbitrage between the 2 regions. So I think what we've been seeing, clearly, early 2025, there was an improvement in demand levels in China. Pulp prices, I think, reacted quite rapidly. There's been 3 price increase announcements in the first 3 months of 2025, of which 2 are already implanted. We see that third one for March will be implemented as well. Let's see what happens beyond March, especially now after Shanghai Pulp Week, at least we're getting relatively positive sentiment, but let's see how this implementation is taken by the market, although purely from a demand perspective, I think we've seen a good development last year across all segments. There was growth in paper. There was significant growth in tissue segments. You've seen on dissolving pulp as well from our end, above 6% growth and that's a continuation of the long-term trends that we've seen in the market. So overall, I would say, we should continue to see some positive development, at least on the demand side. And effectively, on the supply, there's been some constraints, which have carried momentum through the first quarter. You've had first quarter very heavy maintenance schedules in Latin America, and Brazil has swung to dissolving wood pulp output, and they've now announced actually, they'll extend that into second quarter. And that's all pretty much captive demand anyway. We've seen some reduced operating rates in North America and some of the European mills. Part of that due to fiber constraints, which is a situation we have not seen in Iberia. And there's been also some shipment and production problems in Brazil and a few other geographies. In China, the closure of [indiscernible] also have created some supply gaps, and we'll have to see how that's going to evolve in the near term. So I would say, overall, the momentum, it's a positive momentum, both from pricing and volume standpoint and stopping short of what happens with some of the potential for significant tariff wars, which, although we don't expect a significant impact in Europe, given the current inflow and outflow of pulp specifically towards North America, we should see at least our expectations for 2025 is it will be a fairly stable year probably in line with what we've seen last year if you take the whole -- the year as a whole. Regarding your second question on the Gama project. So clearly, we've stated from the beginning that in order for us to have the right conditions to take final investment decision, we would have to have certainty in terms of our license and permits. We've had a very positive development with the positive environmental declaration. I think that's a very favorable development. But there still remains several permits ahead that we'll have to work through and expect that those will be favorable as well. But clearly, the second one on the financing, there's been ongoing discussions through the recent past, clearly on ensuring that we have a decision on the level of potential financing and support that we could get from European funds. And that one, it's outstanding, and we hope to receive more clarity at least in the coming months or somewhat in the near term. We also have the connection to the electricity grid, which needs to be included in the national electrical grid planning and that's something that still needs to happen. We don't see it as a roadblock necessarily, but obviously, it's an important step before we have full visibility in terms of being able to make a decision. So thank you for your question, Alberto.

The next question comes from Bruno Bessa from Caixa Bank.

I have 3. I understand from your comments about the market sentiment and positive momentum for the market, both in terms of demand and supply that you expect a positive price trend to continue. We mentioned already that the third hike announced should be reflected in the market soon. My question here is we have been seeing over, let's say, the last month or something like that, pretty much stable prices in China after a very strong increase at the beginning of the year a bit surprisingly the strong increase at the beginning of the year, but also a bit surprising the stability now that after the Chinese New Year activities, we will be having the return of demand in China to the market. So my question here is, why do you think prices have been this stable over the last month? And if this could signal that the market is already a bit stretched in terms of pricing -- of price increases after the good brand seen in January and February. This will be the first question. The second question, if you could give us an update on new projects in the industry, I think that [indiscernible] has a capacity expansion scheduled for the end of this year? If you could give some visibility on that, your expectations for that project and any other potential project, particularly in China, that could be a risk for the market until the year-end. This will be the second question. The third question, looking to your P&L. We saw an increase of double-digit in terms of payroll expenses. Just trying to understand the reason behind this? How much of this is the pure inflation? How much of this is an increase in terms of FTEs? And what could we expect for 2025?

Thank you, Bruno. A few questions. Regarding on -- let me start with the market sentiment question. Obviously, we are seeing, I think, a positive momentum. As you mentioned, we've seen some stable prices. Why have they been stable? I think 2 primary reasons, specifically in China, you've had Chinese New Year, which usually the market tends to take a bit of a pause at least through a period of 2 weeks. And I think there was some expectation on a wait and see what happens in -- with Shanghai Pulp Week. So usually buyers going into Shanghai Pulp Week tend to take a bit of a pause, we've seen that, that usually doesn't move any prices. But our understanding is the USD 20 that were announced for China will be going forward at least from some early feedback we've had from Shanghai Pulp Week. So I think it's just very circumstantial considering the time of the year. With that said, there is, I would say, some anxiety in some of the markets, in particular, looking at the potential for significant tariff wars and how will that impact the global flows of products. I think there are some question marks still on the development of the Chinese economy. So all of that is clearly adding some anxiety to the market, and you would likely see at least some hesitation or some pausing. So our expectation, at least looking at what's happening in China, is probably considering the current price increase, it's probable that the market to take a breather or at least to gain some better direction given the recent announcements or the changes in recent announcements, there seems to be some volatility in terms of gaining that direction. So it's likely that the market will be looking to gain better perspective on the direction, particularly on the economic front. Regarding new projects, I mean, we understand [indiscernible] is going on. That particular project would not impact Europe because it would not be a certified product. So we wouldn't see it necessarily come into Europe. There could be some change in terms of some of the close. But given the growth that we see in Southeast Asia, parts of Southeast Asia, we would not expect any significant change, at least from expectations. I mean that volume will find its way into the market. But I don't -- at least we don't expect that to be a significant factor in terms of supply/demand, certainly not in Europe. And on the P&L, perhaps, I'll ask Miguel to comment, but we didn't see actually a single-digit increase, but it's also circumstantial. Part of it is on the overall development. We did not have significant inflation in terms of payroll. I'll let Miguel comment.

Yes. Just to complement what Jose just said, we've been managing very strictly our fixed costs. And that, of course, includes our payroll cost. What happened to justify that single digit -- high single-digit increase is, on one hand, we have 2023 was still near with significant inflation. And we try, of course, to compensate our people as much as possible. And on the other hand, we have better results, which means that we increased also the variable pay. That is directly related to the results of the company, and we have all that in our 2024 results. That's it. We had no increase in FTEs. So that is the explanation.

Yes. So just to complement on what Miguel said, we've been making -- we've dedicated a significant effort ensuring that we keep organization relatively stable. So effectively, our [ FTE ] numbers are flat year-on-year. We also have early last year, reached an agreement with unions for a 2-year contracts across all of our operations, the different plants. So effectively, we have very good visibility in terms of how that's likely to evolve.

The next question comes from Luis de Toledo from ODDO.

I had a question. I was referring to the potential trade wars that you mentioned. So I think it's already interested. Are you concerned about the shipments you do of dissolving pulp to Asia if Europe becomes tough into Asian imports or retaliation measures? And the second question would be regarding the comments you made on the challenges that the Canadian softwood producers might be having. I don't know if you could elaborate on that?

Sorry, the last question was on caustic soda?

No, no, not on caustic soda, on -- I thought you mentioned something about the Canadian softwood producers having some challenges. I don't know if you could elaborate and determine how actually it might be affected, if you can refer to the hardwood, short wood trends gaps. And I don't know if you consider in your growth plans alternatives such as flat production or something like that? I don't know if you could elaborate on the Chinese -- on the Canadian, sorry, market.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Luis. So on the tariff side, it's hard for us. I imagine for pretty much everyone, having a lot of visibility in terms of the tariff's initiatives. Regarding China specifically and regarding our exports to Asia, we do not expect any significant impact. I don't think we've seen a lot of tensions rising at least between Europe and Asia. I would expect, in fact, that Europe will be open to identify potential alternatives to its exports into the U.S. So I don't think, at least in terms of our dissolving pulp and considering that China is a strong importer of dissolving pulp, I would not necessarily see a significant risk of that potentially impacting the flow of products. On the -- regarding Canadian softwood, there has been some limitations in terms of availability of fiber. Canada is extremely exposed to exports into the U.S. I think it exports on a yearly basis in terms of NBSK over 2 million tonnes, which is pretty significant and some finished products. That could possibly be one of the key impacts if potentially, if you have significant tariffs, which would limit the trade flow. Now whether that pulp would find other markets, I don't think it would be necessarily very feasible given that Europe is still a very strong producer softwood. What could happen is, I think you may start seeing some potential shutdowns in terms of Canadian capacity. And if that happens, coupled with the challenges on fiber supply, then that would possibly make it easier, at least in terms of global markets, global flow of softwood for some of the European producers. But in terms of hardwood, what I would say is some of these supply/demand impacts have had actually, I think, a positive impact on hardwood, particularly on substitution. We're now seeing differences in terms of pricing between hardwood and softwood, which are very close to historic highs. Certainly significantly above what has been the trends anytime you're above $120, $140 per tonne, you tend to drive clear intentions for substitution or significantly above that. So some of these potential impacts could actually favor hardwood at the expense of softwood. Thank you for your question.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from António Seladas from AS Independent Research.

So I have 3 questions. First one on Greenalia. I don't know if you can provide more color on the acquisition, namely what you are looking for and the price. The second question regarding Celbi extraordinary costs over the fourth quarter, EUR 6 million. Should we expect the same kind of figure in the first quarter? And finally, on CapEx for 2025, I don't think you mentioned a figure. So I don't know if you can provide a figure. And what kind of level of net debt should we expect for the end of the year because currently, it is very low.

Thank you, António. Could you clarify just the first question because I think...

Sorry. Absolutely. In Greenalia, the acquisition of the forest company that -- the acquisition that you made in Spain -- north of Spain. I think if you can provide more color what are the targets of the acquisition and the price, of course.

Thank you. So I mean the -- starting with the last part of your question, in terms of pricing, I mean, it's not material as an acquisition. So we have not disclosed the actual number, but it would not be anything material. What we do intend, and this was as the background for that acquisition is we have had supply operations of fiber from Galicia into our own facilities for many, many years. We've done it through, a, I'll say, a small organization, which we intended to reinforce. We do believe that it's a strategic market, and we feel that we need to be closer to the forest operators and to the industry. And therefore, this was a clear step in order to have a more solidified presence. We have an organization that is very experienced in the Galician market. And we feel that would reinforce our ability to continue to develop our sources of wood from a strategic standpoint. So we feel that this would give us an operational capacity that we did not have in the past. But most importantly, we clearly wanted to also have a greater commitment towards the industry and be more involved in the industry, also helping with some of the best practices in terms of forest management. So that's really the background in terms of what we've taken. And this particular company, it also was one of the main partners that we have worked with in terms of the supply of fiber from Galicia. So effectively, we just have if you want to assume the more direct role with that. On your subsequent question regarding Celbi and the extra cost, I mean, this was related to the generator at Celbi built that EUR 6 million was essentially the piece that was not covered in the insurance, so our own liability. The rest of it is fully covered on insurance. You'll always have a little bit of operational instability by not having the turbine working. But as we've stated, I mean, these are -- this is a nonrecurring event. We've been able to overcome some of the initial challenges. We are operating fairly stable now. But clearly, would not be fully comfortable until we have the turbine back up and fully operational, which is now in the process of happening. So our expectation right now is by the end of the month, that will be complete. And as I said, this is a nonrecurring event, specifically linked to that incident. Regarding CapEx for 2025, I've mentioned just in an earlier question, we are currently through an investment cycle. We've talked much about on a number of the projects that have been ongoing. And even though we continue to have a very strong discipline in terms of our investment in the development projects as well as our maintenance and environmental CapEx, we would expect looking into this year, given that some of the projects are -- we're in the midst of some of the projects, one which will be concluded by the end of this year, which is acetic acid and furfural will probably likely be in the range of $50 million to $60 million. That will be our expectations. And depending on how the year evolves, it's likely that you would see somewhat of a slightly higher net debt-to-EBITDA, but we don't feel that's going to be -- it's going to change significantly our financial -- our solid financial position. So I don't know, Miguel, if you want to comment anything on that, regarding net debt to EBITDA or the...

No, not really, as we don't know yet how the year is going to proceed. It's difficult, of course, in terms of CapEx. We know that it will be a different year comparing it with 2024. And the expectation is exactly that between EUR 50 million to EUR 60 million. But there is also a big part that is dependent on the EBITDA. So yes, we expect a slight increase in the net debt to EBITDA, but nothing very significant that will change our good financial position.

Okay. I don't know if you can just ask for an additional question regarding volumes, pulp volumes sold that have been -- well, have been below the trend. Should we expect this kind of volumes to continue? Or do you expect an increase in volumes sold?

So we've had Celbi's maintenance back in October. We have, obviously, with the swinging of dissolving -- into dissolving pulp with Biotek that always impact somewhat the overall capacity because we have transitions to go through. But I would say, on the other hand, we've been increasing our production in Caima. I think as Biotek becomes more stable as well, that will have an impact. Celbi, this year, does not have programmed maintenance stop. So last year was very much a question of we started off the year with low inventories. We wanted to be very active in terms of our working capital management and therefore, we did not want to change that ratio very much in terms of how much we produced and how much we sold, which was pretty much in line on both fronts. I would say this year, given that we don't have that stoppage, there will be potentially a slight increase in terms of total volumes produced and ultimately, total volumes sold, but it would not be anything very significant, but we do expect a small increase.

There are no further questions, so I will hand over the session to Mr. Jose Soares de Pina, Altri's CEO.

All right. Well, thank you very much for attending the call and for your questions. As we've stated, we're looking forward to another significant year, building off of the strength of last year. As we've mentioned, our expectation is that this year will be very much in line with last year, and we look forward to reconnecting with you soon. Thank you very much.