Anupam Rasayan India Ltd (ANURAS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Anupam Rasayan India Limited Q4 FY '24 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Krishna Patel from EY. Thank you, and over to you, Ms. Patel.

Thank you, Manav, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Anupam Rasayan India Limited's Q4 and FY '24 Earnings Call. Please note that a copy of our disclosure is available on the Investors section of our website as well as on the stock exchange. Please do note that anything said on this call, which reflects our outlook towards the future or which can be construed as a forward-looking statement must be reviewed in conjunction with the risk that the company faces. Please note that the audio of the earnings call is the copyright material of Anupam Rasayan India and cannot be copied, rebroadcasted, attributed in press or media without specific or written consent of the company. Today from the management side, we have with us Mr. Anand Desai, Managing Director; Mr. Gopal Agrawal, Chief Executive Officer; Mr. Amit Khurana, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Vishal Thakkar, the Deputy Chief Financial Officer. With this, I would like to now hand over the call to Mr. Anand Desai, the Managing Director, for his opening comments. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Krishna. Good afternoon, everyone, and a warm welcome to our Q4 and FY '24 earnings call. Hope you all are doing good. Let me take you through the updates for the quarter and the year gone by and how we are placed to the coming year -- upcoming year. Despite short-term selling sales by the industry, the macroeconomic landscape over the medium term looks positive. Inflation and supply chain disruptions such as the Red Sea crisis and fluctuating raw material prices due to market dynamics have caused temporary challenges. However, declining inflation, steady growth rate in India being a preferred economic partner provides a more robust economic environment over medium to long term. On the industry front, the agrochemical and pharmaceutical industry have been facing certain headwinds pertaining to subdued demand. Our Agro business faced certain challenges in the year, and we anticipate that it will continue its current trend in H1 FY '25, after which we are still in demand to send them. Our past sustained efforts in expanding our Pharma and polymer portfolio have started yielding results. Despite the challenges in the Pharma industry, our Pharma segment has robustly grown, increasing from 4% in FY '23 to 9% in FY '24. We expect the contribution of the Pharma segment to be in double digits in FY '25. Currently, the polymer space continues in single digits of total revenue, which is expected to be in double digits in the upcoming fiscal year. This shift towards a more balanced portfolio with higher contributions from the Pharma and polymer sectors will enhance our revenue stability and growth prospects. I feel 2025 will be a year of growth for us with our major focus on polymer and pharmaceutical space. Now let me highlight our financial performance before moving on to the business highlights. Our consumer operating revenue for the quarter stood at INR 401 crores with a Y-o-Y degrowth of 16% whereas for the year, our consolidated operating revenue stood at INR 1,475 crores, posting Y-o-Y degrowth of 7%. The degrowth pertains to a challenging demand conditions in agrochemicals and a drop in raw material prices. The margins for the year-ended quarter have been strong, and we are able to maintain the same. The EBITDA margin stood at 27%, which is equivalent to last year. For the quarter, the EBITDA margin stood at 25% on a consolidated rate. At Anupam Rasayan, we are committed to building a sustainable business. And over the years, we have invested in various initiatives. And now we have initiated an investment of INR 51 crores in building a hybrid power plant among solar and wind power with a 9.2 megawatt capacity. This initiative is expected to save oppositely INR 15 crores per year in our energy cost. Coupled with our earlier initiatives, we will ensure that 65% of the company's electricity consumption comes from green energy in the coming years. With this, I would like to hand over the call to Mr. Gopal Agrawal to discuss the business updates. Over to you, Gopal Bhai.

Thank you, Anand Bhai. Hello, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to our Q4 and FY '24 earnings call. Let me discuss business highlights in brief, post, which I will let Amit Bhai take over to discuss the financial highlights with you. Anupam Rasayan has been continuously focused on expanding its product portfolio. During the quarter, we added 6 new products to our basket, setting it up to almost 20 new products during fiscal year before. All these products are a combination of our fluorination series and the LOIs and contracts signed. The earlier launched products have already begun ramping up and the remaining on scale are gradually in coming quarters impacting our numbers positively. We have also added 2 new customers totally 4 new customers in this fiscal year, including 2 from Japan, which has helped us strengthen our polymer pipeline. Going ahead, we expect significant growth in the polymer business, achieving double-digit growth in the next fiscal year as stated by Anand Bhai. Japan will become one of the major geographies of business in the next 2 years for us. With this, to take you through the financial highlights, I would like to hand over the call to our CFO. Over to you, Amit Bhai.

Thank you, Gopal Bhai. Good afternoon, everyone. Let me take you through the financial highlights for the quarter. After which, I will let Vishal Bhai to discuss the same further. Before getting into the financials, let me share an update related to presidential allotment. The amount collected from the fundraise was used to repay the long-term debt of INR 249 crores during the quarter. Coming to the CapEx incurred as of 31st March 2024, we have utilized INR 482 crores out of the INR 670 crores CapEx. The balance CapEx would be incurred during the first half of FY '25. Our working capital remains stable in absolute terms, and we expect it to stabilize further by end of FY '25 with improvements anticipated in FY '26. The new products launch will have relatively low working capital requirements. We are also focused on cost optimization and operational efficiency. Our strategic focus, coupled with our expansion plan position us well for long-term growth. With this, I hand over the floor to our Deputy CFO, Vishal Bhai, who will take you through the financials in detail.

Thank you, Amit Bhai. Hello, and good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us here today. I would like to share some key performance highlights for the quarter and year ended 31st March 2024. And then we will open the floor for question-and-answer session. Before I proceed, I hope you all have had the chance to go through the detailed presentation and the results submitted to the exchanges and uploaded on our website. Kindly note, our numbers for the quarter are on consolidated basis, and they include Tanfac numbers as well and the same for the year as well. Let me first discuss the consolidated financial highlights for the quarter ended 31st March 2024. Operating revenue for Q4 FY '24 was at INR 401 crores as compared to INR 480 crores in Q4 FY '23, down 16% Y-o-Y. EBITDA, including other income, was at INR 105 crores in Q4 FY '24 as compared to INR 142 crores in Q4 FY '23, down 2% Y-o-Y. This would translate into a 25% EBITDA margin in this quarter. Profit after tax was at INR 40 crores in Q4 FY '24 as compared to INR 73 crores in Q4 FY '23. Coming to the full year performance, operating revenue for FY '24 was at INR 1,475 crores as compared to INR 1,602 crores in FY '23, down 8% Y-o-Y. EBITDA, including other income was at INR 411 crores as compared to INR 440 crores FY '23, down 7% Y-o-Y and this would translate to EBITDA margin of 27%. Profit after tax was at INR 167 crores as compared to INR 217 crores in FY '23, down 23% Y-o-Y. Top 10 customers contributed 77% of our revenue, and there were 25 products that we provided to them. With that, we open the floor for Q&A. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] We have our first question from the line of Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital.

First question on the margins for the quarter, and I'm referring to the stand-alone numbers here. So we have been maintaining that our margins will remain healthy. But any specific reason why both gross margin and EBITDA margin have contracted here?

Ankur, this is Vishal. Let me take this question. So Ankur, yes, our margins have been in the range of 27%. If you look at it on a stand-alone basis. On a stand-alone basis, the margins have moved a bit only because of the product allocation and nothing really anything different than we would have seen. So if you look at our margins have been consistently healthy. Yes, it has been a little lower than what we expected last year, which was 25.4% this year on a consolidated and 26.6% on a stand-alone. So if you look at on a stand-alone basis, we collected by 1, 1.5 percentage points, which is normal that we would have expected when we see the kind of product mix that are there. But nothing otherwise or directionally that can see over there.

Sure. On a volumetric basis, will we be -- where will we be in terms of growth or degrowth and by what magnitude in this financial year?

So we are talking about the past year or we are talking?

FY '24. We have around 24% decline in revenues. So how much of it is pricing? How much of it is volumes?

So largely, if you see that largely, the revenue -- volume is the large contributor to that. And as you can imagine that, that has been the reason where our customers have taken in 2 cases, the minimum volume uptake only rather than the expected volume that we would have expected them to pick. And that's one volumetric reason.

Okay. Sure. So -- and from a utilizing perspective, we will be sub 80%, 85%-odd levels from the aggregate capacity?

So Ankur, I would say that if you look at from a revenue point of view, we should be able to do around INR 1,600 crores to INR 1,700 crores of revenue, but if you look at from a volumetric point of view, it will be -- if I don't include the new CapEx because that's under execution, around 70%, 75% is the kind of volume that we would have been using up our capacity. But as I've told in the past also, this is only a volumetric, but when I -- when my plants, the plants are really multipurpose plants, and I can do multiple products. So if I look at my ideal product portfolio, eventually, I can do anything between INR 1,600 crores to INR 1,700 crores of revenue from here.

Okay. And on the working capital side, we have -- we were earlier guiding for a reduction in working capital for the full financial year. I understand the revenue degrowth and the macro behind there, but the sharp jump here in working capital, if you can put some light there across inventory?

Sure. You're right that the working capital has not gone to the levels that we had expected assets to grow. And I would put it into 3 buckets for that. One, if you look at it, my debtors have expanded, and that debtors has responded because of the sluggish growth. We had to offer our customers a longer payment cycle and that has led to increase in the debt level, which we expect to get corrected over the next year, 12 to 18 months' time and bring it back to more normal numbers, one. Two, if you look at it, we had expected that we were to grow reasonably. We started the year, we had expected a double-digit decent growth that we are expecting. And at that point in time, it can be -- we expected the inventories to be unwound and being utilized well enough to do that. However, because of the degrowth, you have 2 specific challenges that you come to. One is that my inventory velocity goes lower and the unwinding was slower. And two, if you look at, it was also because of the numerator-denominator situation where my numerator has shrunk -- denominator has shrunk and that has also led to a higher number of days. And the third is, I have launched 17 new molecules for which there is a part of the inventory, which also gets added back to it. And that is a significant number that also adds to it because when you start a new molecule, your inventories are higher and [indiscernible] smoothen that number. So I think it's a combination of these 4 things, debtors, slower unwinding of inventories to lower revenue, which is making it the payers and the four is these new molecules, which were showing -- shows that my inventory levels a little higher on that point. But going forward, our expectation is twofold. One, we would be able to focus -- we are highly focused on this, and we should be able to try and bring this to a more reasonable number over next 12 to 24 months. This year, we will see a decent correction. But -- and our targeted numbers we should be looking at it by the FY '26 because by that time, the sufficient number or sufficient revenue or volume would have come in and my new products would have also stabilized. And I don't need to -- at that point in time, I would not need to give actual credits, which also resolve. So if you look at all put together, I think 12 to 24 months is where you will see a very -- so this year will see the improvement at the final number, probably by '24, '26 financial, we should be able to see the target.

Okay. Vishal Bhai, two follow-ups. So one, you mentioned because of the receivables we have started giving longer credit to customers. So which hopefully should sort of being reverse. But on the inventory side, is there any slow-moving product which has got stuck here and due to which the overall inventory looks bloated? I'm looking at the absolute numbers, we were at INR 860 crores in '22, and we are INR 990 crores now in FY '24. So even if I look at absolute numbers, the inventory number has not gone anywhere in sync with the revenue number.

No, you're right. You're right. I'm not going to say that it is not, it is other way around. The only thing I'm saying is that is there any slow-moving or dead-moving inventory, the answer is no. Slow moving in a sense is just that what I had expected them to move, they have not moved at the speed that we had expected. But is there any risk on those inventories? The answer is no. We do not see any risk because these are contracted volumes for the inventory, so which I'm not worried on that. I'm worried more from the velocity of this movement and the management of the organization is really focused on in terms of absolute risk. I'm not too worried. And looking that you saw the inventory was also because of the launches that 17 products would also lead to a decent size of inventory that's been coming on. So I think together and that's where we are, but happy to explain further if you need.

[Operator Instructions] We have our next question line of S. Ramesh from Nirmal Bang Equities.

Sir, two main thoughts in your business. One is on this working capital, you responded to some questions earlier. But structurally, when do you think can bring down your overall blended number of days net working capital to maybe something comparable to a peer group company, so 90, 100 because you are way higher than that? And when you say the new products are going to be having lower net working capital, so what is the kind of net working capital we have for the newer products? And when do you see the current portfolio giving you some reduction in net working capital in terms of the structural direction? If you can respond to that, then I'll go to the next question.

Sure. So see, if you ask me for when I can -- when we can see a more levelized kind of numbers, are you clear saying that my peers or we are talking about a target of 90 days kind of a working capital? I don't see that to be happening anytime sooner. But if you're talking about, let's say, we are talking about 180, 200 days of that kind of a time frame, which is where we feel that we will have a more sustainable numbers in terms of our return ratios and otherwise. I think that, that is where we are targeting for that in the next 18, 24 months, we should be able to reach. I'm trying to -- I'm saying it a little on the longer side is also because if you look at it the next 6 months are looking not very, very favorable. And hence, your room for maneuverability on this side will be limited. And hence, I'm saying so. And we have newer ones will have a little lower intensity in terms of inventory. But also, we'll have to see how the data cycle plays in the Indian market because some part of our revenue will start coming from the Indian market, a little higher because of the pharmaceutical and that's where we would try to be more optimal. And hence, I would say that let's take an 18 to 24 months kind of a time period for us to achieve that.

Okay. Sir, can you talk about the Indian business and Pharma increasing share, what is the current split between domestic and exports in fourth quarter and FY '24? And where do you see these domestic exports split moving, say, in the '25, '26?

See, '25, '26, if I look at it historically, we have been around 65-odd, 65%, 70% is my revenue from the exports and the balance from a domestic. And I believe that mix for a little -- sometimes it will remain in that range. The only thing is pharma's contribution is going to increase. So my domestic from Agro to Pharma will be a move, if I were to say, because we are moving a little bit of demand. We can see the demand for Indian Agro to move to Indian Pharma side. So that's where I'm trying to say that my receivables is there. Pharma next year is looking like around about 50%-plus coming revenue contribution coming from Pharma. And that's where it would be. But mix, I would put it at 60-40 plus or minus high percentage point depending upon how the each segment -- how quickly each segment responds over the year.

Okay. So on the segment, Pharma specialty, so can you just give us the details of the split between exports and domestic for 4Q and FY '24, 4Q '24 and export FY '24?

So FY '24 is -- okay, FY '24 is around about 60% -- plus, 60:40 and Q4 will be in the 55%, 50%, 52% or some kind of a I think export.

6-2, 62.

50, 5-0.

Okay. So that means your domestic business has gone. So in the fourth quarter that.

I would -- so Ramesh, I would not want to read that 50 as a percent. I would read that as a pure product. If you look at the annually, historically, we were at round about 60, 65 and we will be in that range, but probably to about 60 rather than towards this, right?

That is fine. That is fine. So we're just trying to see how the overall portfolio is moving. How the domestic business is moving and then because of that, you are saying receivables are going up? I'm just trying to understand that. So within this portfolio, if you can share some thoughts, like your overall, your Agro is more than 90%, you have given some data on how the Pharma and specialties will increase, right? So what is the current share of Pharma and specialties in 4Q and FY '24? And how do you see that Pharma and specialties moving, say, in FY '25, and '26?

Sure. So if you look at my Agro has been around about 65% -- 63%, 65% of my revenue, 9% coming from Agro -- sorry, Pharma, 9% coming from other and 17 coming from the life science. So that's where it is for the FY '24. And I think what will happen is that the Pharma will add to around about 15-odd-percent and other specialty, including polymer will go to double digit. That will have a reflective on the Agro and personal care, which will be in that range, right? The remaining will be in that.

You're saying Agro will be 75%.

No, Agro will not be 75%, Agro is 65% this year, and it should get a little lower because Pharma growth will be higher than the Agro's growth. And so would the polymers growth be higher than the Agro's growth, and that is where I'm saying that Pharma and Agro will be 15%, Pharma will be 15% and Agro will be -- sorry, other specialty polymer will be a little on the double-digit side. So you may see that the personal care may go down by a couple of percentage points and Agro will give up on a couple -- a few percentage points. In my portfolio, but on an absolute side, I don't think too much will be changing in terms of Agro and personal care.

Yes. So 60%, 65% is Agro, 9% is Pharma and Specialty is 9%. That is about 74%. So balance out of the balance, 25%, how much is it now? Or where does that come from?

Let me make the statement again. Agro is 65%. Personal care is 17%, Pharma is 9% and other specialty, including polymers is 9% today.

Okay. So Personal care is 17%, Pharma is 9% and specialty is 9%. Okay. But when you see the Pharma and specialty is growing faster. Understood. And if you see this kind of growth and when you see this kind of growth and you are talking about the share of fluorination increases. So what is the share of fluorination in FY '24? And how does the share of fluorination move in the next 2 years, '25, '26?

So fluorination is around 20% in FY '24 and that would grow further. I don't want to hide today in terms of absolute number, but it will grow by at least 5 to 10 percentage points is where I'm looking at.

And this will be mostly in Pharma, right?

No, no. It will be across polymers, across Pharma and also Agrochem because fluorination is used. See, I'll tell you what you -- we try to look at it from a segment-to-segment point of view, Ramesh, but if you really look at it, what am I doing? I'm doing a very simple deal. I have a value chain, I work on that value chain with my chemistries. And then it goes into the end markets like Agro, largely, it has been historically Agro. But now I am now moving into -- if I do a couple of more steps I get into Pharma. If I do a couple of more steps on the slide, I get to polymer. And the fluorination coming in, my raptor has expanded, and that is where it is coming to. So I -- it is a single differential that we are talking. But if you really look at it, it is purely a whole value chain that is playing out. And then that's where we would have to see for ourselves because my fluorination goes in all the 3 applications.

Okay. So just to round up the discussion.

Sorry to interrupt, sir, may I request you to rejoin the queue as there are several participants?

No, no, it's okay. Let him ask this question and then we can move. So please go ahead, Ramesh.

In terms of your operating cash flows and growth from the new products, and the movement in debt, how do you see the net debt for the company, say, in the next 2 years, which could possibly offset this relatively higher working cap we're going to have? So can you shed some light in terms of your thought process on how you operating cash flow will help to reduce debt and manage your overall balance sheet to a reasonable size, even with the high working capital, so that your ROCE can improve?

Sure. Ramesh, it's a fair question, and I think -- let me answer it in a different way because I don't want to guide to a specific number because that may not be the right way of doing it, but let me give you directionally and the thought that the management has in terms of it. One, whatever working capital we have today, we should be able to do at least a reasonably higher number of revenues from the same working capital. And in fact, on the receivable side, we may be able to improve better here. So if you look at it, the simple thing that can happen is that do I need any more working capital? See, CapEx I'm practically done, right? So I don't need any investment in CapEx for next 2 years. So that is one thing which is solved for. Second, if you look at I have invested a significant amount in working capital, which will be utilized for my next 2 years growth. So if you look at, it next 2 years revenue or the EBITDA and should be practically getting free cash flow in that sense and that EBITDA less the tax and interest would be a free cash flow for me. And that will be used to just reduce the balance sheet size in that sense by reducing the debt. And also, please be mindful that I have the pref and warrants money, which will come in, in next 12 to 18 months' time, which will be also used to pay out the debt, especially long-term debt.

We have our next question from line of Krishan Parwani from JM Financial.

A couple of questions from my side. First is a clarification on the CapEx. Sir, did you mention INR 190 crores of incremental CapEx you would incur during FY '25?

So I'm saying that, no incremental CapEx in terms of anything new that we are going to do. I'm saying that whatever was submitted, which was INR 670 crores of CapEx, part of that, which is left out for the completion is going to be used to pay out -- to be executed. That's all. Nothing like any additional new CapEx we are announcing.

Yes. I mean, I meant incremental?

Yes. It's 180 then. It's 180 then, which is sitting in my cash today.

Okay. So you would be utilizing that cash towards the capital?

Exactly. So if the question is, do I need any external financing? For that, the answer is no.

Okay. Secondly, the INR 1,600 crore, INR 1,700 revenue guidance, that is on the stand-alone capacities, correct? And that's not in FY '25, but in totality, it can give you the INR 1,600 crores, INR 1,700 crores revenue. Is that correct or no?

Yes, you're right. I was -- that's exactly what I was saying. My capacity that I have today can support a revenue of INR 1,600 crores to INR 1,700 crores. Not that I'm guiding you for that. Absolutely, right. Thank you for helping me clarify that.

Otherwise, I think it would have looked more like in FY '25.

I would love to have that number, but I would not guide for that now.

But do you want to give any guide for FY '25 in terms of range, particularly as in on a consolidated basis?

Okay. Let me answer it in this manner. Will this be a year of growth, I believe the answer is yes. But what is that number? Give me a quarter or so to do that because we believe that the first 2 quarters are looking -- we looked at our headwinds for that. And the second to third and the fourth quarter is where we see a decent growth, especially if you look at it, Agrochem is one that is the -- there's headwinds coming in. My polymer and Pharma will contribute, and that will contribute to the growth. But the net effect is something that I want to see for a quarter or 2 before I guide that. I hope you will be patient with me on that.

Sure, sure, sir. No worries on that. And one, two small clarifications, if I may. So on this working capital front, so if ideally, we should be looking at the stand-alone inventories, I think, which has gone up to INR 990 crores or in days of sales 321 days. So just can you please give a breakup of that raw material, WIP and finished goods inventories for stand-alone business for this financial year?

Sure. So raw material is around about 30-odd percent of my product. My WIP and FG will be the balance. So we can answer that offline because I don't have it ready right now to answer that, but I can give you that offline on this. Let me check if I can get you during the call, I'll get back to you.

Sure. And lastly, if I look at the stand-alone receivables, which has increased by almost INR 170 crores. So -- and while our stand-alone sales have declined, so if that wasn't for the higher receivables, the actual top line would have declined by a much higher number. Is that understanding correct?

So if I could speak, how you see it, right? See, there is a bit of a -- see, my custom role also have some obligations to take offtake after particular level of volume from, right? Now I have a choice to incur higher paying to them or a lower paying to them, okay? Because they are also in a difficult situation as of now, right? So one way is to say that I don't want this volume and in this terms only that we have agreed upon. Or to say, okay, fine, I also take a bit of a pain for you as you are also taking a pain and that's where we have a compromise, we are saying that yes, we will take the volume. They will take the volume pain and I'll take the fuel pain. So it's a business decision. But -- is it a one-to-one relationship or not? I don't think so it is about one to one relationship. It is purely and probably how you work with your customers, especially high-quality customers who are really working with you for so many years, you would tend to that for them, and that's what we have done.

We have our next question from the line of Rohit Nagraj from Centrum Broking.

Sir, first question is on the stand-alone. So sequentially, we have done pretty well. There could be a seasonality impact as well. But given that it's the start of calendar year for most of our export customers and they will be starting the year off is given that last year, we had inventory issues, et cetera. what is the kind of dialogue that we are having? So whether they are relatively confident in terms of lifting up the volumes given that last year, those volumes were impacted because of inventory drawdown and they were taking only minimum quantity. So what has been the dialogue, particularly from the Agro perspective, given that the other segments we have already mentioned that there is a strong growth expected going ahead?

So Rohit, let me answer this. You are right that the Q4 has a reflection of the seasonality also. And a bit of a little strengthening than the last quarter. Yes, there is a bit, but are you saying that we are out of food, then Agrochem cycle has now started picking up. I would put it, I would be having a very cautious view on that, that the first 2 quarters, yes, it looks little not very, very buoyant. I would be far more comfortable and confident to say that their CY and my FY '25. So their CY '25 looks more -- I'm more confident on that than the CY '24 of the international players. However, it's a little early in the day for me to really comment on the full year there. But I would say that as we're cautious for the first 2 quarters before I really say that the demand is -- demand has come back strongly. Is there a strength? Maybe a bit of a strengthening, but I would wait for 2 quarters, honestly.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Second question is in terms of the LOIs. Sir, out of that INR 9,000 crores of LOI, how much has the condition in FY '24? And if I'm not wrong, earlier for FY '25, we expected close to about INR 400 crores -- INR 300 crores, INR 400 crores. So does that guidance remain?

Perfect. So let me divide this LOI piece into 2 different packs and then we can talk about it, and I'll answer that fully for you. LOIs to get commercialized, we would take it 18 to 24 months kind of a time period. And two is, typically, they -- once you commercialize it, it takes you another 18 to 24 months or 24 plus or minus 6 months kind of a time period for a fully full ramp-up in that sense because the volume takes time to ramp up fully. So if you look at my the LOIs and contracts that we signed in 2022, they have started yielding revenue. I -- this year, we should have done a little less than 200 from the LOIs and contracts. And next year, it's just -- it should do reasonably well. Will it be -- it should be in the range of INR 350 plus or minus crores is what I would look at for those numbers.

Sure. And just one last clarification. So we've been -- when I understand you don't want to give a guidance on the top line front as is now. But given that the raw material prices have alleviated stabilized, so would our margins will be in the range of 26% to 28% as we have guided earlier from stand-alone basis?

Yes, margins, I think we should be looking at around 26-plus kind of a thing. So what we have been guiding, I think it's something that we should be looking at.

No worries. Sir, any guidance outside...

I'm just using the rumor here.

Just any guidance on FY '25 and working capital days that we want to put up assets now?

Give me 2 quarters. It was, I was a bit cautious and I assure of that. We need 2 quarters to answer that. So that is the quarter or 2 to see how it is moving, because I think why I am saying though, because my revenue mix is changing significantly. And the velocity that I am expecting from the cycle to come back with something that I want to see before I really comment on that.

We have our next question from the line of S. Ramesh from Nirmal Bang Equities.