Atos SE (ATO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Atos conference call. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Rodolphe Belmer, CEO; and Uwe Stelter, CFO. Please go ahead, gentlemen.

Good morning. I am Rodolphe Belmer, CEO of Atos, and I'm joined today by Uwe Stelter, Group CFO. We have convened this conference call in order to give you more details on the additional information that we provided in yesterday evening's press release about our 2021 financial figures. And I would like to reiterate first that my first commitment to you is full transparency and timely communication to the market. A month ago, when we announced our 2021 preliminary figures, we mentioned the possibility of asset impairments. It is the purpose of today's communication to announce such impairments in accordance with top market regulation as these impairments are very significant. And to the best of our knowledge based on the comprehensive analysis we have conducted, they are also final. As you are well aware, 2021 was a year of many challenges for Atos. In the context of an accelerated move to the cloud, the group decided to focus on digital, cloud security and decarbonization activities. While classic infrastructure and UCC activities suffered a severe decline. This led to the poor 2021 performance that we announced a month ago. In light of these developments, we decided to conduct a comprehensive analysis of, one, the future recoverability of our assets; and two, the profitability of a large scope of legacy contracts. The results of this analysis, which I wanted to be as comprehensive and thorough as possible, are the impairments that Uwe Stelter is now going to present.

Thank you, Rodolphe, and good morning. On the next slide, you see the 2 categories of impairments, which are booked in our 2021 accounts. First is goodwill and other noncurrent assets for a total of circa EUR 1.9 billion. This is mainly goodwill for circa EUR 1.3 billion relating to the previous classic infrastructure acquisitions. The delta for circa, EUR 0.6 billion, relates to other non-current assets like data center and IT equipment leases. Second category are contract asset impairments, bad debt provisions for future losses -- and provisions for future losses -- sorry, bad debt and provision for future losses for a total of circa EUR 0.5 billion. Roughly half of that amount relates to provision for future losses, main on legacy contracts, but also on the BPO financial services contract in the U.K., we have informed about January 10. Further 1/4 relates to unexpected bad debt reserves and another 1/4 to contract asset write-offs. Both categories will be recorded as other operating income and expenses and will have no impact on the operating margin or on the cash flow of the group. These 2 items will have a mechanical impact on deferred taxes, and impairment will be necessary in order to reflect the lower recognition of the deferred tax assets of the group. This is in the process of being quantified. All these numbers are still provisional and have not been audited yet. Moving to the next slide. The purpose of today's call is also to give you an update on our 2021 preliminary figures that we communicated on January 10. As you can see on this slide, the numbers as of today are close to what we announced on January 10. The revenue decrease at constant currency is now minus 2.6%, versus minus 2.4% communicated previously. Operating margin will be circa 3.5%, versus circa 4% communicated previously. These 2 deviations are mainly related to the final assessment of the large financial services BPO contract in the U.K. Lastly, free cash flow remains unchanged at circa minus EUR 420 million. Again, these are provisional numbers that have not been audited yet. I will now hand back to Rodolphe.

Thank you, Uwe. This review of our assets and contracts and the resulting impairments were a necessary step for Atos in order to fully take stock on the strategic and operational developments that have significantly hindered the group's performance last year. We have done the work comprehensively, thoroughly, and we have done it once and for all. We can now turn the page and look forward to a whole new chapter for Atos, and this new chapter starts today as we are going to announce our new governance. This simplified group governance around 3 business lines and 4 regions is the first step of our turnaround plan designed to accelerate the business cadence and transformation pace of the company. A detailed press release will be issued later today. We will then publish our 2021 full year results and 2022 objectives on February the 28th. And as mentioned before, we will present our full turnaround plan in Q2. This plan will be articulated around 4 priorities: energized sales and commercial momentum; rationalized cost structure; pursue disposal and acquisition programs to reposition the group; and make the organization simpler and more efficient. We have made progress on all these points already, and I'm impatient to share more details with you in due course. We are going now, with Uwe, to take all your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Stacy Pollard with JPMorgan.

I guess the main one that I would have would be now that you've had a chance to do a full assessment, how do you think about your mid-term targets and sort of potential changes there? And maybe just talk us through what you think about the prospects for the different business even if you can't quantify some of that at this point. I'm quite interested to see sort of what your feeling is about the various businesses and their ongoing prospects.

Well, thank you, Stacy. On the future perspective for Atos, there are 2 messages I'd like to convey. First, we now have a very solid, predictable path in front of us, thanks to the work that we have just done on the impairment. And this is a very good news, I would say, the positive way to look at the set of news we are releasing today. Now on the mid-term subjects, we will come in due course with the turnaround plan and the strategic amendment, we are going to communicate in Q2, as I said before. What I can tell you is that the long-term ambition, which is to catch up with the industry standards in terms of growth and profit, I make those -- this ambition mine, of course, but I cannot give more detail at this point in time.

And just a quick second follow-up. The acquisitions that are held for sale, is there any change to that situation or update?

No update on this one. As I said, we are pursuing the strategy to manage the -- what we call the legacy activities of the company for the cash flow, and it will be one of the main driver of the new governance, the new organization we are announcing today to make sure that we regroup the activities, which are at maturity to manage them accordingly with a dedicated management, a dedicated set of priorities to make sure that we stabilize and we defend this part of the business. Plus, that we prepare some of those, as was said before and announced by the company a few months ago, for the disposal.

The next question is from Laurent Daure with Kepler Cheuvreux.

I have 3 questions. The first one is on the reorganization. So if I understand, Uwe, you're walking away from vertical-driven organization. If you could share with us what was wrong with this approach to the business? My second question is on the contract assets. I see that you have done some depreciation on that. Could we have a view where you will be landing on the balance sheet at the end of 2021 to make sure that there has been some real [ cleaning ] on those assets? And my final questions is on the provisions, some of the provision for future losses. How shall we look into the impact on cash flow going forward?

Thank you, Laurent. On the reorganization, I don't want to comment a lot on the past, of course. But today, we are a 3-dimensional organization which is set across 3 main lines, which our industry, that's the vertical -- industry vertical, geographic dimension, which is called RBU, and the product vertical, which we call practices. Which obviously, even though our company is big, it creates a lot of complexity and lag in decision taking. We are at a time when we need to reenergize the commercial dynamism of the company, plus we're at a time when we need to accelerate the transformation of the company to enable the turnaround of the company and the repositioning on the avenues of growth. For that very reason, we thought we should develop an organization which is -- which enables much shorter, much more streamlined, decision-taking process which is much more predictable, also ownership of the performance metrics of the company. And that's the reason why we are structuring the company across 3 major regions, 3 major geographic blocks. Second, we have to recognize that we have different business models in our company. There is, as I said before, the business alliance which are at maturity, which we call typically Legacy. We have changed the name, it's now called Tech Foundation. Those business have to be managed as business-at-maturity, which means that they have to be managed for the cash flow. They need to have [indiscernible], to have objectives to the management which are capable to manage business in that situation and with a purpose, which is to defend, and ideally prepare for some disposal if it's possible. We have 2 other lines of business which needs to which need to be managed for performance and for maximizing growth, which operates under 2 totally different business models. We have a service business line in the integration system area that we call digital, and which encompass our cloud and digital and application modernization businesses. It's a service business where the name of the game is the mass, if I may say so, of capabilities that we're able to regroup to serve our customers better, and that's the main driver of growth. And you have the BDS business line, which is product-driven, innovation-driven, marketing-driven, R&D driven. And to make sure that we stimulate and we optimize the performance of those 3 business lines which are operating, again, on 3 different business models and which are a different cycle in their life, we should structure the company accordingly. Meaning that the decision we take today is twofold. First, very pragmatic. Make sure that we streamline decision taking to make sure that we can accelerate the cadence of transformation. And second, we distinguish the business line to make sure that we are capable to manage them accordingly and also to externalize for the internal and the outside of the company, the performance of those business lines. On the contract assets, well, I'll turn to Uwe. What I want to reiterate is that we have performed, of course, triggered by this change in strategy, by the recent evolution of the performance of the company. But based on those triggers, we have been able to perform a thorough and comprehensive analysis of all the contracts of the company, which could embed a risk of deviation for the future. That's what we have done to make sure that we are capable to eliminate, as much as we can, any substantial risk down the road when we progress in the execution of our turnaround plan, and that's exactly the notion you should have in mind today. Now Uwe, can you help me on that?

Yes, sure. Sure. Yes, on your question on contract assets, we give, of course, the precise number end of February. But indeed, we'll see a significant reduction not just because of this write-off because, as you heard from me, the write-off is only 1/4 of the EUR 0.5 billion. But we also will see a reduction because we were also able to convert contract assets into invoicing and into billing. So we are on our track to -- as you know, our position is about EUR 900 million net contract assets to further reduce those as a major step also for the cash flow generation of the future. And yes, the 1/4 of the EUR 500 million, of course, are contributing to that, but that's, of course, only one topic. The other topic is really conversion into cash. Which also leads to your third question around the cash flow. So just to remind, again, out of the EUR 0.5 billion, circa 1/2 of it is on contract losses, as we said before. And the impact on cash flow is rather small because we have -- a lot of those contracts underlying are long-term, long-lasting contracts. As you remember, the BPO contract for financial service in the U.K., it runs for another 10 years, so this is -- so it's spread really over a long time. So therefore, also, loss provisions are more on the long term and have not a massive impact or not a significant impact on the cash flow generation.

The next question is from Mohammed Moawalla with Goldman Sachs.

Great. I just had one question. Uwe, as you think about the cash flows going forward, you obviously had a significant amount of deferrals around sort of cash flow payments. Will there be a kind of forward cash flow effect as a result of some of these issues? And are there risks, whether have you assessed the kind of the forward risk around payment terms and payments on some of the contracts? Given you said that you've gone through all the contracts or kind of impairment risk, but is there further risk around kind of the payables or the collections basically going forward?

So as I just answered also to Laurent, the -- on the contracts, on the losses for the future, the impact is not significant because we have obviously, I would say, an average on this 1/2 of the EUR 0.5 billion will spread over 7 to 10 years, so it's a rather smaller impact. On the -- in general, on collections, yes, we had a bad debt reserve also, what we talked about, to make sure that we also are catering for any potential, yes, negative impact in the future. But that, of course, is already -- that's neutral to our cash flow because we have now taken these cases into account. On the -- I think on the overall payment behavior, what we see otherwise overdues and those KPIs are not deteriorating, are actually in line, so we are also not expecting any impact out of that. The opposite is the case that what I said before that the level of contract assets we still have, we are further reducing and you'll see that we'll publish the -- on February 28, our numbers, so I don't expect any effects from that.

The next question is from Amit Harchandani with Citi.

Three, if I may. My first question is with regards to the analysis you have done of the contracts and the effects you have shared with us today. To what extent is this also customers coming back to you and asking you to renegotiate the terms of the contract? For example, you highlighted one in the U.K. And do you anticipate a scenario wherein potentially down the road, other customers could turn up? And would you say all of this is down to the accelerated move to the cloud, or was there any shortfalls or maybe improvements that could have been done in the first place when these contracts were negotiated to avoid the situation that we have in front of us today? So that would be my first question. My second question is with regards to talent. You've talked about 2021 being a year of challenges for Atos. At the same time, the industry is going through a period of huge demand. As a consequence, salaries are -- how are you dealing with talent management? And do you anticipate you might have to pay more than average to hold on to talent into next year, given the kind of issues the company is going through at this point of time? And my final question is on the topic of litigation. You have litigation ongoing with respect to TriZetto, I believe, there's also something going on with the Syntel, previous owners of Syntel. Could you give us an update on where we stand today in terms of litigation, and if that could have any impact over the next 12 to 24 months?

Thank you, Amit, for this very comprehensive set of questions. On your first question regarding the contract and the -- and if any of the impairments or the provisions we have taken are related somehow to customer demand or renegotiation. The answer is plainly no, not at all. We have done a review of the contract, which was not triggered at all by any renegotiation underway with any customer. The reason why we have reviewed those contracts are manyfold. Of course, there is the pivots of the -- of Atos strategy towards cloud, digital and away from the legacy business, as we said. Plus the landing of 2021, which is a bit softer than anticipated, which creates a base which is lower than expected for the future regarding those contracts. That's the main 3 events. Plus, of course, there is an additional element, which is not the main one. Which is the bad surprise, if I may put it that way of -- that we had with the BPO contract in the U.K., which drove us to review extensively all the big contracts we have with initially relatively low margin to make sure that they don't embed a risk which is substantial, which could affect substantially and materially, at the group level, the profitability of those contracts down the road. That's exactly what we have done and which is resulting in the figures we are presenting today. Admittedly, we have brought in a bit more prudence than before. Might be true. But well, the intention is simply to make sure that we reduce as much as we can, the risk down the road of execution of those contracts when it comes to profitability. Second question on talent, is a key focus of the company. The digital division of the company, which is the service division of the company, is talent based. Of course, division, that's the key engine of growth of that business. We are perfectly aware of that, and it's totally top of our mind. And of course, top of our priorities by hiring new talents and retaining those talents. For the moment, we don't have to report any specific deviation in terms of our plans for recruiting and/or in terms of attrition, where exactly where we said we would be in that respect. We have a compensation strategy to remunerate our staff everywhere in the world in the median of the market, and we continue likewise. I think no specific deviation from that policy to report. And well, we said probably a month ago that on the backdrop of the difficult landing of 2021, we have put in place a very effective retention plan, which is working well for us. Meaning that, well, nothing to report on that question beyond the fact that it's, of course, at the very top of our priority. Third question, litigations. TriZetto, nothing to report. While the previous owner of Syntel, nothing to report neither. Anyway, it's a related topic. The topic you are referring to regarding the previous owner of Syntel is encompassed in the wider TriZetto subject. No news to report on that subject.

The next question is from Nicolas David with ODDO BHF.

I have 3 as well from my side. The first one is, could you help us understand what was actually the underlying growth in Q4? It seems that constant currency growth was circa minus 8% in Q4, but you already told us that there was a bunch of exceptional items. So if you strip out what was really exceptional and what was underlying growth? And what kind of growth do you embed in Q1? And also, could you share some color about now that maybe you have more visibility regarding what you can catch up as soon as in Q1 or H1? My second question is regarding the deferred tax asset impairment. How should we think about it? Does it mean that -- I mean, you're just doing impairment because you expect lower earnings? Or should we think also that maybe you expect to recover as efficiently as a deferred tax asset and meaning that maybe the [ effective ] tax rate should be higher than the historically very low tax rate that your company was showing? And my third question is, could you share some date please regarding the goodwill impairment? We appreciate that you already said that's mainly linked to the legacy asset, but I understand that most of your goodwill was linked to Syntel, so could you confirm that there is no goodwill impairment on Syntel?

Well, maybe I'll ask Uwe to help me on those questions. The last question, there is absolutely no goodwill impairment on Syntel because there is no reason to impair anyhow the value of Syntel. Which is one of the jewels of our company, which is actually the heart of our digital division and, meaning, one of the growth engine on which we count a lot for the future growth acceleration of the company. On the 2 first questions, maybe Uwe, you can help me on that?

Yes. Nicolas. Yes. So if you look at what we commented in the January call as well is that, of course, we had, number one, the correction for that BPO financial service contract in the U.K., and we have also the deferral. So if you deduct from your -- and I'm staying at constant currency, if you deduct those 2 amounts, then you get to, at constant currency, close to stability in Q4 or organically slightly negative, of course, if you deduct the acquisitions. Which are the main effects we commented on, which is the BPO financial services contract and also the deferral or the postponement of activities. Of course, in Q1, we'll comment on 2022, we'll comment end of February when we come back with the financial numbers. Then on the second question, that was around the tax I believe, right, the tax topic? So I mean, our effective tax rate, if you really look at -- you can normally, on a longer term, you can calculate with, say, around 20% to 25%, more 20% right now as our effective tax rate. And of course, in the past, we had always some fluctuations a bit, especially with Worldline, in and out, which, of course, distorts the numbers a bit. But otherwise, we are pretty much in that range, and this is also what we expect for the future.

Next question is from Gianmarco Conti with Deutsche Bank.

I have 3 in my hand. The first one is, with regards to the profitability of large legacy contracts. I'm curious on whether you'll be putting legacy into discontinued operations going forward, essentially not showing it on the bank P&L anymore. Just curious to see whether these impairments will be smoothing out adjusted margins in the future? And the second question is, I just wanted an update on Unified Communications. Remember in Q3, you said that you were in advance talks of finding a partner. Have you had any updates here? And are you ruling out completely the sale of these assets as well?

Perhaps on the first one -- on the first one, so obviously, what Rodolphe also described of the organization, and more details to come, of course, in the press release today. But we will show the business is more or less separate. So meaning that we will have the business which is containing more of the classic infrastructure business in a separate business line, in which we also, of course, then make it easier as well for you and also the investors to follow the dynamics of that business. Meaning, showing the -- meaning, showing the different dynamics, which is, of course, very different in that infrastructure business versus the digital business, as you can appreciate. This is what we will do now. There's no plan for now until we are more concrete in the next step to put anything into discontinued. Meaning, we would report as of now the full scope. Of course, once we are closer to a transaction and have signed something, then, of course, this would be the next step. But for now, we are, of course, reporting the whole entity, the whole Atos Group. But of course, what's important to understand is that we'll give more visibility by the different business segments also to follow the business dynamics. And the second question, I think, can you repeat again the question? There was a bit of noise on the line.

Sure. No. So I was asking an update on the Unified Communications business which you mentioned in Q3, you were in advanced talks to finding a partner with. And I was wondering if there were any updates there as well as if you're completely ruling out the sale of these businesses?

On that question, Unified Communication is included in the new segments that we call tech foundation, which is the business which is at maturity, which will be managed for the cash flow stabilization of the revenues, optimization of the cost base. And also, as I said, and it's one of the key topic there, preparation for divestiture and UCC will come exactly in that definition, and that's probably one of the subjects that I had in mind when I referred to that notion. On the divestiture itself, well, we have nothing to report today. And of course, we will report only in due time. But the key notion you should have in mind is that those businesses now, which are at maturity, will be managed accordingly in a sort of defensive strategy to make sure that those business lines, those activities that we are not weighing on the cash flow generation of the group in the future. And that's the key driving thought behind the evolution of the governance of the group to make sure that we are able to manage each business line of the group according to their business situation and where they stand in their life cycle.

The next question is from Neil Steer with Redburn.

I just have a couple of very quick follow-ups. Earlier on, someone asked a question for you to just update us on the balance sheet position at the end of '21, I'm not sure if you gave an answer. Could you give us an answer to that, please?

You mean on the contract assets?

No. In terms of the balance sheet position, i.e., what your net debt position is at the end of '21.

Okay. I didn't hear that question, sorry, neither. But no, we -- I mean, on the net debt, we are circa minus EUR 1.2 billion of net debt, which -- yes, that's the net debt position on an OMDA. So we roughly have a ratio of 1.1 related to the OMDA. And as you know, there is -- what we don't count in there is the underlying shares for Worldline, which are underlying the optional exchangeable bond, which, of course, is also a very liquid part of our balance sheet. But of course, it doesn't count into that. So if you would deduct it, it's actually -- we would be EUR 0.8 billion of net debt.

Okay. And just on -- you've mentioned, both, on today's call and on the call in January the streamlining of the business and restructure. Can you -- are you in a position today to give us a sense as to what the cash cost will be in the current year or indeed in '22 and what you presume of '23 to undertake that restructure and streamlining of the operations?

Well, at the time we are speaking, there is no specific cash cost associated with the evolution of governance that we have announced, well, that we're just announcing today. Plus the process around UCC, what is available, I would say, in that respect, not significant. We will come in due course in Q2 when we present the strategic amendments. If there are elements that are material in that respect, of course, we will have a conversation with you and communicate on those elements. But for the time being and in the execution of the current path there is no -- nothing to report on that question.

Okay. And sorry to ask one final question, but on cybersecurity and so forth. Obviously, there've been a number of press articles over the last few weeks with regards to interest in parts of those activities. Can you state categorically this morning that none of those BDS assets are for sale? Or are there indeed parts of the BDS portfolio that you would consider selling?

Well, clearly, BDS is not for sale. Second, we said we would concentrate on the turnaround of that company and that we have 2 growth engines today, which are digital around Syntel and cyber -- not only cyber, by the way, around BDS. And third, we said we would come up with a strategic amendment, the turnaround plan in Q2. Meaning that -- and it means that very clearly, we are not -- we have not taken any action, communicated anyhow, taken any contact whatsoever to sell the jewels of our company, neither BDS nor digital.

The next question is from Michael Briest with UBS.

Apologies, I missed the beginning, so if this has been said, I apologize. But just in terms of the contract assets. Uwe, you said about 1/4 of that write-down related to -- sorry, of the EUR 500 million, 1/4 is contract assets. Can you break down the remainder between bad debt and provisions for future losses? And I guess, because these were all sort of recognized above the line in revenues and profits, why are you treating them as an exceptional item on the way out, if you like? And then Rodolphe, in terms of the changes in the geographical and vertical structure. Is there an associated change in the go-to-market? Because with the sort of move to Spring and industry selling, that was quite a big overhaul for the business. Are you going back to some other form of going to market in terms of positioning your portfolio?

Michael. On the first question, so indeed, we have roughly 1/4 on the contract assets, as you said. We have 1/2, 1/2 of the EUR 0.5 billion is on losses, contract losses, and a further quarter on bad debt. So that's the rough split. So 1/2 losses, 1/4 quarter each on bad debt and on contract assets. And on the classification -- your classification question. Yes. I mean it's a pretty -- I mean, industry standard and comparable to other companies in the market that we show exceptional items -- extraordinary and exceptional items, in the other operating income category, not in operating margin. And of course, as you might have understood from the activity, this is really based on the impairment, first of all, the impairment of really looking at the entire portfolio. And it is pretty substantial topics, which are one-off. As I said before, some of the contract losses are taking the next 10 years, kind of upfront, into account now, so they are very non-operational for the year 2021. And also secondly, of course, the big losses like the one on the U.K. financial service BPO contract, of course, is as well very, very exceptional. So that's in our definition of it and it's -- otherwise, we would never show the real operational numbers in our operating margin.

On the questions around the go to market. The -- we are not changing the go-to-market per se. We are not organizing ourselves across industries anymore when it comes to the full P&L ownership of the company, but we continue to address our customers with an industry or a customer-specific view. Meaning that we continue to organize ourselves with key account managers that we call CEPs in our own terminology. Taking care of the customers, of the customer chasing, customer development, customer [ fertilization ]. We continue to organize, of course, ourselves accordingly, and when it makes sense, to have industry -- to develop industry-specific solutions when there is a form of homogeneity in customer demand that we could roll out globally. The notion is that we wanted to get closer to the customers and also want to make sure that we accelerate decision taking. That's why we are giving the ownership, of the customer relationship, of the P&L, of the group, of the quality of the execution of our programs to the regions to make sure that we shorten the decision taking and that we are much more agile and much more responsive. That's the notion. But when it comes to go-to-market, customer-facing, addressing the industry-wide request, we continue to organize ourselves exactly with the same go-to-market, with the same sales strategy with 2 innovations, 2 announcements to our go-to-market. First, we are creating -- it's actually 3 things that I'd like to say. We are creating a Chief Commercial Officer role for the group to make sure that we are developing a center of excellence to strengthen our sales capability, our operational performance in sales, sharing best practices, accelerating solution design developments and those kinds of considerations. And 2 elements which are more substantial, less soft. First, we are focusing much more on large deals in the digital space. We do large deals at Atos, of course, that's very often. And it's good, of course, we have to continue likewise. But most of them is in respect of the infrastructure business. We want more share of the large digital deals, which are the key underpinning factor of growth and profitability in the digital segment, what we call digital, which is integration service, that's our new name for this division. And we need to focus more -- more on large deals, and we will dedicate a specific team at the global level, reporting to Chief Commercial Officer, to strengthen our capabilities, our penetration power in that respect and to accelerate growth in our -- in this division of the group. And second, hyperscalers. We wanted to turn ourselves much more towards the large hyperscalers, which are the structuring driving force of the digitization of our customers. And again, we will organize ourselves with much more capabilities. Turn towards those very key players like Amazon Web Service, Microsoft Azure or GCP. And that's the only elements which are evolving, but which are actually announcements to our unchanged overall go-to-market strategy.

And just in terms of the mid-term plans, I know it was a question earlier, but is it because you haven't had a chance to review them? Or when you do your strategic update in Q2, are you saying effectively today, there's no chance you will revisit those plans? Because it seems there's a lot of change going on in the business, it seems hard to weight yourself to the target set by your predecessor.

Well, it's -- thank you for asking again. It's a bit early, as I said. Well, the intention is to come back to the market and also to the organization of the company in due time in Q2 with a full turnaround plan with probably an amended strategy. Probably a new focus on some segments on which we could grow much faster than we do. And most probably, there will also be a new 5-year plan for the company. What I said, what I keep saying since I've joined, is that the ambition that the company is pursuing globally, which is to sort of catch up with the industry average performance that we are lagging quite substantially for the time being, is the right dimension. But I cannot say more at this point in time.

That's understandable.

All right. I think we are coming to the end of this session. I understand that there is no more questions in the queue. I hope we have answered all of your questions. I hope this call today was helpful to you, and would like to thank you for the open dialogue. As a conclusion, I would like to reiterate that I'm truly convinced that Atos has all assets at hand to get back on track. We'll speak, as I said to you, again very soon, and thank you again for your attention.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining. The conference is now over. You may disconnect.