Atos SE (ATO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Atos Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Paul Saleh, Chief Executive Officer. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Sandra, and greetings, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. Before we get started, I want to draw your attention to the disclaimer on Slide 2. On the call with me is Jacques-François de Prest, our Group CFO. This is on Slide 3. Today, we'll be presenting our strategic plan for '24 to '27 for the group and our businesses of Tech Foundations and Eviden. We will then review the parameters of our refinancing framework and the rationale for them. We'll then cover an interim financing agreement we've reached in principle with our banks and debt holders as well as the participation of the French state in EUR 450 million in additional liquidity, that will be enough liquidity until a refinancing solution is reached. On the next slide, to get started, let me set the stage for our discussion. Atos is a recognized leader in the IT industry with great assets that offer compelling value. We have a leading position in key IT segments of the market. We have blue-chip customers across 69 countries with long-standing relationships. We have successful operations with a clear and actionable value creation strategy. We have a broad IP and patent portfolio with differentiated offerings and unique sovereign capabilities. And we also have great talent. And we have great training programs and certifications for the company. Now the company is also facing challenges that needs to be addressed, and they include additional cash burns over the next 2 years, significant debt maturities over the next 2 years as well. And we're also facing a credit rating that prevents us from accessing the capital markets. And finally, we realize that any potential strategic asset sale at this time would take time to execute. So let me dig deeper into this strategic plan. On the next slide, shows that Atos is a global IT leader with a strong -- next slide, please, one more, okay, thank you -- is a global IT leader with a strong presence in Europe. In 2023, as we had shared with you recently, we had revenues of EUR 10.7 billion and an operating margin of EUR 467 million. We operate in 69 countries and have approximately 95,000 employees totally committed to serving our clients and committed to the company. Our operating margin before depreciation and amortization was EUR 1 billion in 2023. Our business is currently split equally between Tech Foundations and Eviden with a good mix of geographic presence. Let me turn now to the Eviden business on the next slide. Eviden includes activities dedicated to high-growth and mission-critical market segments. Eviden has unique intellectual property, talent, assets and extended product and service capabilities. This is the business where we plan to deliver the strongest revenue growth, robust margin expansions and high cash conversion. Looking more -- in more detail on the next slide. Eviden is EUR 5.1 billion business with more than 47,000 employees and operating in 45 countries. The business has strong intellectual properties, as I mentioned, with over 2,000 patents and over 50,000 certifications in digital, cloud and next-generation technologies, including Gen AI. 20-plus percent of our top 30 clients have relationships with us for over 10 years, and we have an average renewal rate of 89% and more than 97% of our revenue is generated from existing clients. On the next slide, Eviden enjoys distinct capabilities and leading positions in high potential growth markets. Those include European leadership that the business enjoy on managed service -- security services, end-to-end data and AI transformation expertise, strong offering in sovereign cloud solutions, a large portfolio of patented cybersecurity solutions, capabilities that combine unique technology bricks across the entire business portfolio, the position of sole European high-performance computing manufacturer and a leader in Gen AI, and it's clearly a strategic positioning in Europe for mission-critical systems. On the next slide, we highlight some of the key offerings in the Eviden portfolio, which range from digital services, cloud offering, digital security and advanced computing. Underpinning those offerings are Gen AI capabilities, and you'll see in the third column the size of the business -- each one of those businesses. Offerings are well recognized by the industry analyst community, including Gartner, IDC, Everest Group, just to name a few. On the next slide, we highlight the distinct offering and the capabilities of each one of the offerings. In all of the domains we have a differentiated capability that support our customers along their digital transformation journey. And that goes from advisory and consulting to design, implementation and maintenance management. In the cloud, we help our clients in their transformation journey in the future cloud continuum from advisory to operations. And in advanced computing, we power next-generation AI use cases, and we power the largest enterprises and research centers with next-generation big data, high-performance computing and quantum computing infrastructures. On the next slide, we talk a little bit more about our patent portfolio. And you can see here that we hold patents in strategic technologies, such as automation, immersive expertise, hybrid cloud, modern application, cybersecurity, advanced computing and quantum computing, just to name a few of those categories. On the next slide, it's just a visual of the partnerships and the strong partnership that we have with leading players in the IT ecosystem. Now if you look at the next slide, we highlight the growth areas for the business itself. As I mentioned, we operate in Eviden in the fastest-growing segments and the most critical segment of the IT market and all of them are growing at double-digit rates. On the next slide is the structural tailwind that we see those tailwinds aligned with our business strength and those include digital capabilities, particularly in AI. We see disruptions of the IT markets by cloud and hyperscalers, and we're there just really to support our clients. We see talent shortage pushing towards outsourcing. We see a shift to a no-perimeter cybersecurity and new use cases with AI and Gen AI. And each of those drivers of tailwinds are fully aligned with the strength of our business. When you look on the next slide, in particular, we highlight the great opportunities generated by data and AI revolution, and we're just at the forefront of it. To succeed in this new world and our clients, whether enterprises or government, clients will need to accelerate their transformation, leverage ultimate power on-premise or in the cloud and deploy sovereign cybersecurity. And this is exactly what we can do for them. On this next slide, we just really capture some of the key pillars of growth for the Eviden business, and those include a comprehensive portfolio of offerings that will enable us to just really drive top line growth, a strong cross-selling capabilities that will be rolled across the business, a customer for life mindset and very importantly, leveraging our talent as a key differentiator. So on this slide, you see the progression of our Eviden revenue from pro forma of '23 to '27, where we expect the revenue to reach EUR 6.6 billion in 2027. And in the middle of that page, you will see the clear growth plans for each one of the business segments of the Eviden business. Turning to the next slide, where we talk about our sustained margin expansion for the business with the objective of reaching 12.2% operating margins as a percentage of revenue in 2027. And this will come as a result of activating and executing on the following levers that are shown here, a shift to higher-margin activities, increased share of subscription and maintenance revenue, a value-based pricing, improvement in our workforce management and labor pyramiding and spans and layers and better utilization and productivity across the entire continuum of the company. So on the next slide, we're providing, as a result of not only top line actions but also the profitability actions that we will be taking. You see the financial projections for the Eviden business over the course of the next 4 years, both external revenue, growth, operating margin, margin as a percentage of revenue and free cash flow before interest and taxes. On the next slide, we just even provide additional detail about -- I'm sorry? Okay. So let me turn now to our Tech Foundations business. Tech Foundations represents 52% of Atos Group's business. Tech Foundations operates in core segments of the IT market undergoing structural transformation. The business has unique talent, unique assets and capabilities with industry-leading offerings and the strategic plan, which I'll share with you, delivers improvement in profit margin and a turnaround in cash flow generation. On the next slide, we highlight the fact that the business is EUR 5.6 billion in size with more than 48,000 employees and operations in 69 countries. The business has a proven track record of serving clients with their mission-critical operations. And the business has a balanced offering and a balanced geographic mix. The average relationship across the top 170 clients of the company is at 10 years with 90% renewal rates. And our Net Promoter Score in Tech Foundations is 20% higher than industry peers. Now if you go to the next slide, you see the Tech Foundations has a broad portfolio of offering. The businesses are organized around 4 key offering pillars: hybrid and cloud infrastructure, digital workplace, technical advisory and customized services, digital business platform. In every one of those offerings, we help our clients maximize their return on their IT investments. On the next slide, we want to just really mention that Tech Foundations is particularly well positioned as an orchestrator of and managed service provider of choice across the full cloud infrastructure continuum, and our clients just really rely on us to provide that end-to-end orchestration and managed service solutions to them. On the next slide is an illustration of the fact that the Tech Foundations business has been on a transformation journey across all aspects of our business, and that starts with our talent, establishing the right culture, having the right portfolio, making sure that we are just focusing on the right revenue growth, expanding margin and improving basically and modernizing our process and our operating model. In Tech Foundations, on the next slide, you see the underlying markets that we serve and their growth characteristics and you see that those markets still offer compelling value and opportunities for continued solid growth. On the next slide, we highlight the market trends driving demand for services that we can provide for our clients, and they range from distributed workforce post COVID, which is redefining the workplace needs and services of every firm we work with. We also see a fast move to multi-cloud and hybrid configuration and an important rise of sovereign cloud and cybersecurity and the coming of age of artificial intelligence, all of them driving opportunities for the business to expand its presence with clients. On the next slide, we talk about the portfolio tailwinds generated by Gen AI, which is underpinning a lot of changes across the industry. And we're helping our clients just really face that new world and providing to them advanced advisory services, support across their entire needs. On the next slide, we just really, again, captured the growth characteristics of the business. You will see even though the revenue in 2023 was EUR 5.2 billion, and to 2027 we're expected to be close to EUR 5 billion, but the mix is going to be changing, particularly as we highlight being very focused on specific segments of each one of those offerings. And next, we are highlighting the areas that are going to be the drivers for improved profitability. And those include classic levers, meaning like their traditional levers that peers have used, but also there are next-generation levers that we will be implementing. And they range from delivery modernization and a project margin expansion driven by turnaround in best shoring supplier consolidation, rationalization of our SG&A structure and using data and data-driven automation to just really improve margins to reach in the high single-digit. On the next slide, again, as we did with Eviden, we are just really providing you with the outlook for the business over the next 4 years for both revenue, operating margin and free cash flow from -- before interest and taxes. And you'll see this is the business that near term is going to be still facing some restructuring that needed to be completed over the next couple of years, but turning positive starting in 2026 and into 2027. So in the next slide, we've just really captured a summary of some of the information that you -- I have shared with you. This is the group financial outlook for the business. External revenue reaching, as I mentioned, EUR 11.4 billion by 2027. Operating margins of 1.2%, which is a 10% margin up quite significantly from what it was in 2023. And a free cash flow before interest and taxes of EUR 0.5 billion -- I'm sorry, EUR 800 million by 2027. And then I am going to turn it to Jacques-François to just really go into some of the other financial details with you, and then we'll take your questions.

Thank you, Paul. Hi, everyone. I will now walk you through the capital structure part of this presentation.

One more slide, please.

One more slide, please. So this slide is the recap of the financial challenges we are facing, and we now -- which we now need to address. Starting with the table on the left of the slide. You can see there the key financial elements leading to the net debt evolution. Per convention, this forecast has been built on the theoretical assumption that the coming debt installments will be refinanced with new debt at a weighted average of 7% interest rate. The first takeaway is that the group would still be in a cash consumption mode over the coming 2 years, 2024 and '25, for a cumulative amount of between negative EUR 600 million to negative EUR 500 million. This is driven by our transformation of the group with some restructuring costs as well as CapEx and also the weight of the past, meaning significant cash charges related to former commitments. Second takeaway is that the group then turned in material positive free cash flow in 2026, '27 for a cumulative amount of EUR 900 million positive that time. From that table, we can easily assess the capability of the group to serve the debt for the period '24 to '27. The weight and the payment schedule of the group indebtedness are shown on the graph in the bottom right-hand corner. Basically, we have a gross debt of EUR 4.9 billion, of which EUR 2.75 billion to be repaid in the 13 months to come by May '25, when I also take into account the RCF, which was fully drawn in January. Logical conclusion is that the group remains over-leveraged over the period '24 to '27, and this is shown in the upper right-hand corner graph that over the period '24, '27. The leverage would remain above 6x until year end '25 and then decrease on a moderate way to 4.4x by year-end '26 and approximately 3x by year-end '27. For this computation, we are using the usual ratio of financial net debt over EBITDA pre-IFRS 16. This is by far too slow to match company's objectives to be back on a BB credit profile in '26, which would require a 3x leverage by year-end '25 and not '27 and a 2x leverage by year-end '26. That means that even if the group was able to push forward some debt installments, typically for 2 or 3 years through an amend-and-extend agreement, this would not solve our balance sheet issue because we would then not be in a position to refinance that level of debt in '26 or '27 in the absence of a BB credit profile. So to summarize the group situation in 3 points. First, we need to find a way to finance the cash needs over the next 2 years. Second, at this point in time, access to significant disposal proceeds is not possible within the considered time frame. The '24, '25 funding should come from new money provided by existing creditors or third parties. Thirdly, the group has far too much debt and in order to be back to a sustainable capital structure, the company's leverage has to be adjusted down drastically through a substantial reduction of outstanding debt to allow to match the required leverage trajectory for a BB credit profile in '26. Next page, please. Let's say a few words. All right. One positive development we are able to announce today is that we have an agreement in principle a short-term funding facility for a total of EUR 450 million made of 3 elements. Firstly, a factoring facility provided by the banks for an amount of EUR 300 million, then a secured facility provided by the bondholders for an amount of EUR 100 million. In addition to this EUR 400 million, the FDES, the Fonds de Développement Economique et Social, has agreed to extend a EUR 50 million facility to a subsidiary of Atos, Bull SAS in return for an action de préférence on Bull SAS, which controls the sovereign sensitive activities. This is a further indication of the support we are getting from our creditors and also from the French government to provide us with short-term liquidity. Next page, please. Let me now present our refinancing framework. Firstly, in order to address our need to cover negative cash flow from operations in '24 and '25 and to cover intra-year working capital fluctuations, we need new money to fully fund our business plan. Secondly, as we have just shown you, we have a debt maturity wall in front of us in '24, '25 of around EUR 3.7 billion that we cannot refinance due to our credit profile. Therefore, this implies the extension of the debt maturities. Lastly, our excess leverage is not consistent with our credit profile and impairs materially Atos' counterparty creditworthiness. For this reason, we need to request a debt reduction. Next page, please. Let's say a few words about what we are trying to achieve here. So on this page, you can see our key objectives. We want to protect the social interest of the company, including its employees, clients, suppliers, shareholders and stakeholders and preserve the strategic interest of the French state. We also need to reach operational stability to ensure business continuity for the group and reassure our clients, employees and suppliers. Then obviously, we need ample liquidity to implement our strategy to deliver results. Additionally, we want to reinstate a sustainable capital structure, which will support our future cash flow generation and future refinancing. Finally, the objective of a BB credit rating is consistent with the quality of our assets and will facilitate our access to capital markets. Next page, please. Once we have explained what are our needs and our key objectives, let's focus now on the key parameters of our refinancing solution. As part of the refinancing, we are looking for 3 elements. Firstly, in terms of new money, the business needs EUR 600 million of new debt and/or equity. This is consistent with our minimum cash requirement to operate normally. There is also the need for a EUR 300 million revolving credit facility for additional flexibility. In addition to this, we need a EUR 300 million line to issue bank guarantees to support the business. Secondly, we are seeking a debt reduction of EUR 2.4 billion, should new money be provided by debt. This is consistent with the deleveraging profile, allowing us to become BB in '26. Our leverage would be below 3x by year-end '25 and 2x by year-end '26. Thirdly, we would like a 5-year maturity extension. Next page, please. Let's have a look at the long-term new money side. In terms of new money, we target EUR 1.2 billion divided into 2 parts; on 1 hand, EUR 600 million in the form of ad hoc debt and/or equity and on the other hand, EUR 300 million of RCF and also EUR 300 million bank guarantees. With regards to concerning providing parties, this task will be open to all the existing stakeholders of Atos SE and to third-party investors. However, priority will be given to Atos SE stakeholders' proposals, provided their terms are at least equivalent or better than third-party proposals. On the security package, it will consist in pledge of shares of one or several Atos' subsidiaries. Next page, please. Maybe a few words about the timetable. This is about really sharing that what we have shared already yesterday night with our creditors. Next page. Yes, that's it. That's it. For the refinancing process, we are targeting to have a due diligence phase until 26th of April. We have asked the creditors or interested parties to submit their long-term funding and debt reduction proposals by 26th of April. The negotiation phase will then start until 15th of June, date at which we need to have an agreement with all stakeholders. And finally, we will negotiate lockup agreements until 12th of July with an implementation starting right after that date. Thank you for your attention. I will now hand over to Paul for some closing remarks.

Thank you, Jacques-François. So let me leave you with some key takeaways from our discussion this morning. First, Atos, as a company, is a recognized leader in the IT industry. We have great assets. Today, we've shared with you our strategic plans for the group as well as for the Tech Foundations and Eviden business. And we also have clear plans that will help us deliver EUR 11.4 billion in revenue by '27 and operating margins of 10-plus percent by '27. The second message is that we've outlined clearly parameters of a refinancing framework that will address our debt position right now, and we will be evaluating proposals that will be submitted to us by existing stakeholders of Atos or third-parties that are consistent within those parameters. We're targeting April 26 to have those proposals in, and we will be working with our creditors to reach an agreement on a new global refinancing plan by July of 2024. And the third message is that we have the liquidity necessary to fund the operations and invest in the business until the refinancing agreement is reached. As we indicated to you, we have an agreement in principle with our debt holders and banks for EUR 400 million in new funds as well as we have a EUR 50 million participation of the French government to support the business. All these are clear indications that our bondholders, our banks are committed to working with us on finding a refinancing solution that will support the long-term success of the company, and we expect to have those things done by July of this year. Sandra, as an operator, would you just really now open the session for the questions.

[Operator Instructions] It comes from the line of David, Nicolas from ODDO BHF.

Yes. I have several from my side. First, could you give us some details regarding the calculation of the net debt over EBITDA ratio on both sides on EBITDA, OMDA like you call it, on the restatement you do versus the headline OMDA versus the number you're reaching in your table, Page 35. And should we feel that people like S&P would do more adjustments on that line? And the [indiscernible] of net debt, could you explain how you reach those net debt calculation from the preferential net debt and so adjusted net debt and [indiscernible] regarding potential adjustment from S&P or the credit rating agencies. My second question is you have a pretty interesting plan to turn around the company, notably at Eviden level. Do you think that you will need some operational restructuring to improve the margin at Eviden or is it just based on organic development? And also for '24, which is shorter term, we see organic growth expected for Eviden, while you were ending the year more [indiscernible], what is the sequence of organic growth improvement here? Is it more very [ backend loaded ] or should we expect already in the year positive performance? And my last question so far is -- so you explained, Paul Saleh, that it's at the current perimeter -- this framework, but could you, in the meantime, continue to pursue decision to probably sell some assets, be it smaller assets, like you explained in previous calls, or even a bigger asset like Tech Foundations?

All right. David, I think just like 5 multi-questions. So let me just read -- first of all, you mentioned on the S&P. I think what we have said is that we wanted an investment -- a credit profile, sorry, that is consistent with a BB credit profile. So obviously, S&P has its calculation. We can -- we're just really using 1 proxy for that. And I'll ask Jacques-Francois to give you a little bit more reconciliation or talk about it. But basically, obviously, it's not in our hands, but we're just really focusing on a BB credit profile. And I'll come back and answer some of your other questions in a second.

All right, they need to complement. So this is true that we -- I can say, we make the computation to simulate what's the leverage calculated by S&P could give, although that belongs to them. But that's why we take the standard ratio of leverage using the EBITDA. So the way we compute I will not give so many details because that's not a KPI we are disclosing. But just for the sake of this exercise, that's computed as the OMDA pre-IFRS 16, where we take away the anticipated RRI cost and a few other changes. So that's the way we compute that.

Let's talk a little bit about the turnaround. Indeed, actually, the numbers that you see here include restructuring, both in the Tech Foundations and the Eviden business. So all the financials have already reflected whatever amount of workforce or restructuring that needed to be done. In terms of the current perimeter, absolutely we are, just as we highlighted in the market update press release this morning, that all the parameters that we have given you are based on its full business perimeter for Tech Foundations and Eviden. Obviously, we had indicated in the past that we would be pursuing some small asset sales. We're going to continue to look at those. But the solutions when it comes down to -- but all the financials that you're seeing, assuming no disposition of asset, everything remains within the group. And then we'll be evaluating all the proposals that will come our way on April 26. I don't know exactly what they will look like, but we'll evaluate them with the help of the conciliator Maître Hélène Bourbouloux, and we'll be working with our creditors just to find out and zero-in on the proposal that makes sense and that are consistent with the parameters and the objective that the company has. I think that's it. And I think in terms of mentioning '24 performance, I think you'll have to wait a few more weeks because we'll be giving you our first quarter results for both bookings as well as revenue.

Okay. So if I understand well, regarding the OMDA calculation when you mentioned anticipated RRI, it means that you expect a way lower RRI cost already in '25 in your numbers because you don't need way more restructuring and most of the [indiscernible] have been provisioned already, right?

Some of this information is actually provided in the schedules that were attached in the slides themselves, and you'll be able to see them.

All right. And on the net debt side, because you mentioned OMDA, but just on net debt what are the difference between the financial net debt and the net debt calculated...

Are you done, David, with the question?

No. I just wanted to come back on the net debt calculation. I understand that you add up the working cap actions of EUR 1.8 billion. But do you adjust for other items in your net debt calculation?

There is -- in the computation we made today, there is one pro forma change, which we included compared to 31st of December, that the drawn -- how do you say, we have drawn fully the RCF early January for an amount -- for an additional amount of EUR 320 million, which then we're adding to our net debt.

I didn't get the last sentence, sorry.

I'm saying that we have added to our net debt in the computation we are making now, the full utilization of the existing revolving credit facility because in early January, we have drawn EUR 320 million, which was left on this RCF.

All right. That's clear. And one very last from my side...

David, you just give me a second, just let's give other people an opportunity to ask questions. If we have time, we'll come back to you.

We will now take the next question. It comes from the line of Adam Wood from Morgan Stanley.

I've got 3, if I could. Just first of all, on the refinancing, could you just be very clear about what's signed already, what's agreed in principle and what's requested? So I guess the EUR 600 million needed of new money that could be debt or equity, and you've got a EUR 450 million bridge to that from various parties. Is that EUR 450 million all signed or agreed in principle? And then there's the EUR 200 million -- EUR 300 million is the new revolver and the bank guarantees, are they requested? Or have they agreed in principle? Give us some clarity on what's done and what still needs to be signed? Secondly, again, just to be clear on 2024, this EUR 400 million, give or take, of cash outflow from the business normally. And then am I reading this correctly that there's EUR 1.8 billion because you're going to stop the kind of management of working capital at period end, clean that up. So actually, there'll be actually a EUR 2.2 billion outflow stated EUR 1.8 billion from not managing the balance sheet in period end and EUR 400 million of underlying business. If you could clarify that's correct. And then finally, the EUR 2.4 billion of debt reduction that you talked about, if the EUR 600 million is new debt, could you help us understand where that potentially could come from? Is that expecting debt holders to exchange debt for equity? Just any ideas of where that EUR 2.4 billion debt reduction would come from would be helpful?

All right. Well, let's go one at a time. I do believe, first of all, that the EUR 450 million is interim financing that has been basically agreed to in principle, right? So we're just really confident in that. So that's not an issue whatsoever. EUR 400 million from debt holders and banks. And the remaining EUR 50 million is coming from the state -- French state, provided we get waiver from the banks. So that's the first part. When you look at our financial projections, we show you that there is a gap, and I think that's what Jacques-Francois showed in his presentation. It's -- if you look at '24 and '25, you do see -- you aggregate that, you see that EUR 600 million of new money that is needed to fund the business near term over the next 2 years, and it will come in whatever form, whether equity or debt. The EUR 300 million revolver and the EUR 300 million of guarantee lines gives additional flexibility for the business for going forward. To your questions about free cash flow, indeed, the free cash flow is EUR 400 million. This is assuming that basically we will be unwinding the EUR 1.8 billion of working capital actions, which we have really provided. We have started to do anyway since the beginning of the year. And you're absolutely right. If you look at how the free cash flow will be presented from a reported perspective, if we indeed do the EUR 400 million negative free cash flow in 2024 it will be the EUR 2.2 billion that is shown in the appendix in our press release, Appendix 4. So you're right, we will be just unwinding fully going forward working capital actions so that all of our financials have reflected that going forward.

And then just lastly on that debt reduction of EUR 2.4 billion. Is the idea of that -- is that to expect debt holders to convert? Or is there another source of where you would get that money to get yourself in line with that investment-grade profile?

Yes, Adam, it's going to be a function of what are the proposals to just really mean that there will be a number of ideas people will be presenting or solutions they will be presenting to us and we'll evaluate them. So it'd be hard right now to just say here is how it's going to look like. So let's see what some of the solutions that are going to be proposed are again from existing stakeholders as well as third-parties that will be submitting their proposal between now and April '26.

[Operator Instructions] We will now take the next question. It comes from the line of Nicolas David from ODDO BHF.

Yes. Sorry to come back, but yes, I had a very last question, is, comparing your own assumption with the ones made by Accuracy, both for 2024 and 2027, there is some differences here. Where does those differences come from mainly? Is it more working cap assumption? Or is it more about OMDA and top line assumptions?

I think their work just really reflect their own analysis of our projections, and they have some differences of view on working capital, the trajectory. They're also not taking full consideration of all the actions that we could take, but this is their view of the next 4 years. And then they just really also reflect a little bit more their views on the progression of some of our margin, but not significantly different. Well, Sandra, if we do not have any more questions, I just want to again thank everybody for participating on our call today. We'll be available, just reach out to David. David and his team will be ready to take any questions you may have. And thank you again for your interest in Atos.

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.