Austriacard Holdings AG (ACAG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. I am Mina, your Chorus Call operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Austriacard Holdings conference call and live webcast to present and discuss the first half 2025 financial results. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. We are joined today by Mr. Manolis Kontos, Group CEO; Mr. Markus Kirchmayr, Group CFO; and Mr. Dimitris Haralabopoulos, Group Investor Relations Director. They will take you through the presentation and discuss the first half 2025 results. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Dimitris Haralabopoulos, Group Investor Relations Director. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, Mina. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Austriacard Holdings First Half 2025 Financial Results Conference Call and Live Webcast. I'm joined in today's event by Manolis Kontos, Group CEO; and Markus Kirchmayr, Group CFO. Before we start, I'd like to remind everyone attending today's event that during the course of the call, we may mention forward-looking statements, and these statements are subject to certain risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ from those expressed in the forward-looking statements. All forward-looking statements made today reflect our current expectations only, and we undertake no obligation to update any statements to reflect the events that occur after this call. Also during the course of today's call, management will be discussing one or more financial measures, including, but not limited to, adjusted revenues, adjusted EBITDA, EBITDA, adjusted margin, adjusted net income, which reflect management's view on the company's performance and are reconciled with the IFRS results included in both the annual and interim financial reports, which are accessible in our results press release and our corporate website. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Manolis Kontos, Group CEO. Manolis, the floor is yours.

Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you, Dimitris, for the introduction, and thank you, everyone, for taking the time and giving us the ability to share information that has to do with the financial performance of the first half of the group. But before going in the discussion and analyzing and giving a bit of insight of what is behind the numbers, I would like to make a short introduction of the group in case there are any new participants that didn't have the opportunity to get introduced to us. So we are a company that is founded back in 1897, and we are headquartered in Vienna. We are a company that is applied technology company that draws more than 100 years of experience as you realize. And we provide innovation in the fields of authentication of people and authentication of objects and information management. Our product and services portfolio is primarily in the areas of identity and payment solutions, which is a category that I will be referring to afterwards, digital transformation technologies and document life cycle. And we provide our services to financial, government and general private sectors. And we have a workforce which is approximately 2,400 people, internationally based. We are listed in the Athens Stock Exchange and Vienna Stock Exchange, and we have quite a significant geographical also presence in more than 17 countries, and we have activity in more than 50 countries. And we have also production facilities around in 9 countries. And we have been present in this field for quite a number of years, and we have been showing quite a strong trajectory up to now. So going now into the -- and we will going into the presentation that we have prepared for you today. I would like to start by saying that we are an international growth-oriented business that has a proven track record over the years. Nevertheless, the first half has shown some negative deviation versus the years -- the last year same period. This is something that we need to highlight from the beginning that this is a business that is not a linear assessed business. It has rather a cyclicality, and it has periods that have higher performance and some other periods that show a softness on a comparable basis. So the way we assess the business is over time and not just on a quarter-by-quarter basis. And this is because of the dynamics of the business and the fact that we have let's say, external or so -- influence that has to do with decisions that our end customers take and the way the projects are being faced. So as such, the first half of the year has shown, as we will see, softness versus the same period of last year. But as I said, we need -- and we will be providing also to you during this call a bit of an outlook of how we see the remaining of the year performing and how this is going to be complementing our strategy as far as the implementation of our plan and as far as the priorities that we have set, which we are delivering against them. So the strong performance continues to be in all our major categories, Document Lifecycle, Digital Technologies and especially in our core markets that have to be Central and Eastern Europe. We remain committed, let's say, in implementing our strategic investments, which have to do with organizational capabilities improvement, enhancing our product portfolio offering and getting the benefits of the value-accretive M&A that we have implemented in the previous years and always focusing also on operational efficiency and cash management so that we can continue transforming this organization into an applied end-to-end technology provider. Getting into the actual numbers, we'll see -- we'll start from the revenue line. So we see that the group reported a revenue of EUR 164 million. This -- in the first half of the year, we faced some challenges -- challenging conditions, especially in the Turkish market, where we had the normalization of the stock levels kept by customers and also an adjustment of the market. This is following a very strong performance over several years of strong performance in that market. So this is now a onetime adjustment that we are facing during the course of this year, in the first half of the year, which we believe strongly that is behind us. So going forward, the Turkish market will continue being a strong contributor in the total results. And also what is worth mentioning is that we have maintained our strong leadership position as far as the end customer is concerned in that market. So that's why we believe that this turbulence is behind us. As far as then the other factor that influenced the revenue line versus last year, we also have the temporary moderation of metal cuts sales that we had last year in some large-scale fintech, which had to do with some significant launch that they had where they were using the metal cards as a way to attract new subscribers and they made it available to all their clients. So this supported a very strong growth versus last year. We still keep on serving this client, and we still have repetitive orders expected to come, but these were not realized in the first half of the year. As such, this is the second reason that we have shown this decline versus last year. And last but not least, also on the public sector and the digitalization of the public sector in Greece, where we have contracted large-scale projects that are in implementation. There has been some administrative, let's say, delays in getting this started and getting them rolled out, so which means that this, let's say, deviation will be fully recovered in the coming quarters, and this will contribute to the growth not only in the current year, but in the years to come. Obviously, if we take out the impact of this Turkish market normalization and the metal card sales that we had last year, the group would have shown on a comparable, let's say, basis, 4% growth in the revenue line. Looking at the EBITDA line, we recorded EUR 19.3 million. This is showing a decline versus the EUR 29 million that we had reported last year in the first period of 2024. So there's a EUR 10 million gap that we have on a comparable basis. This is fully linked to the revenue shortfall. And on the other side, we have managed to improve our product mix, and we have a better revenue mix. And as such, excluding again these 2 items of the Turkish market and the metal cards, we see that there would be a 7% increase, which is reflecting what I just said that on an EBITDA margin level, we would have improved our margin because -- and the fact that it doesn't show and we have a 12% is from the under, let's say, utilization of our capacity linked to the fact that we produce less cards and we delivered less cards to the Turkish market. On a net profit level, we recorded EUR 2.5 million, which, again, if in absolute terms, as we can see, is showing EUR 2.5 million versus EUR 11.2 million. So this is purely the reflection of the shortfall coming from the operation result. On the other side, we had lower net financial expenses and slightly higher FX losses coming from the U.S. market. On the strong point, the operating cash flow, where we generated EUR 10.4 million, which we have managed what we have communicated also in the past, reducing the pace of the working capital buildup. And we also have quite a disciplined focus on improving this inventory management and the cash collection. That's why we were able to show this EUR 10.4 million operating cash flow generation. Going more on the balance sheet items. We see that the leverage is recorded at 2.1 net debt to EBITDA on a rolling 12-month basis, which has been maintained in healthy levels. Also, if we look at previous years, we will see that we are managing to be below EUR 100 million in absolute terms. The debt, we recorded EUR 96.1 million. At the closing of the year, we were at EUR 95.6 million. So despite the challenge that we faced as far as the H1 performance is concerned, we managed to maintain the debt of the group below EUR 100 million and the leverage being at 2.1%. Net working capital, again, at EUR 73.2 million. As a percentage of sales, it's 20%, slightly higher from what we had in the same period of last year being 19.6%. But as I said, the whole management of working capital and debt has been a high priority for us. And we are coming from quite a strong buildup that took place in the previous periods. So we are very confident that going forward, we will be able to optimize further the working capital position of the group and be on a more, let's say, level that we have been in the past after being -- having absorbed, let's say, the inventory that was built up in the previous years. Shareholder remuneration, as we -- this is a factual figure. So we distributed after the approval of the general assembly, EUR 0.11 per share. This was paid in July of this year. Now we will dive a bit more on showing the performance on the main geographical clusters that we report. So starting from the biggest cluster, which is Central Eastern Europe. So we see that this cluster shows a decline versus the same period of last year. This is purely linked with the Turkish market. So we see that the decline is coming -- EUR 19 million of that is coming from the Turkish market because the Central Eastern Europe, let's say, cluster is the one that is producing in our factory in Romania, the cars are being sold then to the Turkish market. So as such, there is an intercompany element here, the intrasegment, as we call it. And if we exclude this from the comparison, the Central Eastern Europe cluster would be showing a plus and not recording this minus 14% that we see here. Going into the West region, the West region is the one that had the fintech that we served last year with a large-scale, let's say, project that they run. So this is the reason that we see this EUR 14 million impact coming just from that event. Again, on the West region, if we don't have this fintech, let's say, project that we run last year, this would be showing a strong growth. The reason is that this cluster is the one that is serving the majority of the fintech that we have. As we know, the group has been very successful in serving the fintechs in Europe and internationally. We are a market leader as far as the large-scale fintech is concerned. This is a segment that has a very strong performance. So as such, we are also seeing the strong performance being reflected in our numbers on a normal regular basis. So the cluster that has the actual significant impact versus last year is the one that is the Turkish Middle East and Africa. So this is the one where we have the onetime adjustment of the Turkish market. As I said in the beginning, this is all recorded in H1. So we are absorbing all this impact in H1. And H2 and forward, we anticipate that the market is normalized. So we get into -- back into normal trading positions. All this shortfall on the top line is reflected obviously on the EBITDA line. That's why you see the -- let's say, the impact both on the top line and the EBITDA line. And -- but on an adjusted margin level, if we were to exclude, let's say, as I showed in the beginning, the impact of these 2 major events, the Turkish market adjustment and the fintech of the metal cuts, the margin is improved versus the same period of last year. So this is just a reflection of what I just said. So we see what I want to highlight further here is that Sea and West would be on a plus as we can see on the sea on the Central and Eastern Europe markets, the payment cards business is showing a plus 4%. And also on the document life cycle, we are showing a plus 2%. So the CE market, if it wasn't impacted from the Turkish market, it would be showing completely positive performance. As far as the West region is concerned, we have a significant growth on the services that we provide this distribution services linked with the cards that we produce, personalize and distribute. So the fact that you see a strong growth here has to do with the increased volume that we have especially from the fintech side. As I said, the West region for us is primarily serving the fintechs. So that's why you see a strong performance here because we also see a strong performance and growth in the fintech business in this cluster. And the only market that is being impacted negatively is the Middle East and Africa market in the first half having the impact of the Turkish market adjustment. But the outlook for the remaining of the year for this cluster is quite strong, not only for normalizing the Turkish market, but also having a positive coming from the government and ID, which I will elaborate further on as we get into the categories. Which leads us, I would go directly into the product categories, which I think it's more, let's say, important to spend time on this. So starting from the digital technologies, it doesn't show a growth. I will remind us all that this is the part that we have been growing strongly over the period of previous years. So this is a category that we started having business a few years back. Already last year, we recorded EUR 27 million as a reported, let's say, revenue coming from the Digital Technology category. It doesn't show a growth up to now, but it is going to show a significant growth in the remaining of the year, both from the public and private sector. On the public sector, we have contracted, as I have communicated in previous calls, we have contracted projects that are in implementation. There just has been a delay in them being rolled out and implemented. So this -- we have a pipeline of projects to deliver. We are talking in the range of EUR 60 million. So from that, we already have delivered part of it. 1/3 of it is already delivered, 2/3 of it is in front of us to be delivered. So we are completely confident that on the Digital Technology side on a full year level, we will be continuing showing the growth trajectory that we have recorded in the previous years. As far as the identity and payment solutions is concerned, this is the one that has the biggest impact from both the metal cards business and the Turkish market. Starting from the metal cards, what I can say is that there is still a lot of interest from especially the fintechs of this world into using innovation into the offering that they have in the end customers. So we have a lot of interest, and we are implementing projects as we speak. So this will continue being a significant contributor and with very good margin levels in the years to come as far as the innovation on the card part of the business. Also, the other very important driver of growth into the Identity & Payment Solutions category will be the holistic Citizen Identity Solutions. So this is something that we started implementing and it will already show results up to last year. Last year, we had reported around EUR 10 million in the Citizen Identity Solutions. Our estimation for this year is almost doubling that figure in the remaining of the year because we already have contracted projects that we are into implementation that has to do with holistic Citizen Identity Solutions, especially in the Middle East and Africa region, where we have a lot of countries that are looking to provide to their citizen, let's say, citizen identities or driving licenses or even data pages for passports. So this is a segment that we have invested in the last couple of years in having a holistic offering. This investment will pay off. It's already showing fruits in the year that we are in, but we have a very strong pipeline of initiatives also in projects that we are qualifying, being qualified and being close to be concluded and will contribute strongly in the growth of this identity and payment solutions category. On the Document Lifecycle, this is the one that has not been impacted by any extraordinary events. So that's why you see that -- it shows also in the first half a growth of 5%. And it's also a category that we have been investing, especially into the security documents part that has to do with providing holistic again solutions to governments mainly that have to do with either, let's say, election projects that we run or, let's say, examination papers that we provide to the African markets where, again, here, we offer the whole -- not only the documents in order for them to be conducting the exams, but also doing the end-to-end capturing data from their results, providing their results to the governments that trust us into delivering this. So we still have a lot of, let's say, opportunities to go after, and we have already created a reputation that we are one of the most credible providers as far as this type of solutions is concerned. Going into the balance sheet items now. On the net working capital position, as I said earlier, we see that we are having a percent on sales around 20% but in absolute terms, at EUR 73 million compared to EUR 71 million. So you see that there has been a buildup from '22 to '23 and then '24, and now we're getting into a normalization. This is exactly what we have planned. And our anticipation for the remaining of the year is that we should not be seeing an increase as far as that is concerned. And also all the efforts we have done in optimizing our stock levels and renegotiating some commitments that we have will show fruits in 2026. So 2026 will be a completely different picture as far as the inventory levels is concerned. On the debt side, we have managed to have quite a strong control on the debt of the group. and this reflects on the absolute figures. So we see that there is no movement practically from the end of the year. So we have managed to retain the debt below EUR 100 million. The reason that the ratio has moved to 2.1 is purely because of the lower revenue line basis. So with that, I would like to provide also an outlook for the remaining of the year, but also give a bit of a perspective for the years to come. So looking ahead and in view of what we have realized in H1 as far as the revenue shortfall is concerned, we would like to provide a guidance for the full year of 2025 on the EBITDA line to be in the range of a mid-single-digit decline versus 2024. We still remain confident in delivering substantial sequential growth and a meaningful improvement by a robust contracted, as I have mentioned, revenue pipeline, increasing the contribution from high-margin solutions like Citizen Identity and Digital Technology Solutions and stabilizing the Turkish market. So with these initiatives and with the pipeline that we already have contracted, we strongly believe that we can reverse this situation that we saw in H1, and we will be managed to close the majority of the gap that we have seen. And also with our strong portfolio and with our expanding geographical presence and our commitment to innovation and value creation, we reinforce our vision of being the partner of choice for our clients. And we remain focused in transforming Austriacard into an applied technology provider, confident that we will be able to lead sustainable growth, not only in the midterm, but also in the long term and create value for our shareholders. And on top of that, what I want to highlight here is that I don't want to, as I said in the beginning of meeting -- of my presentation to focus just on the year. This performance has been -- we have been able to achieve it on an organic basis. What I want to add here is that we are always looking at margin accretive and value-creating M&As, which will be able to support the growth of the group going forward. We have already a track record into having successful M&As, which set us from the level we were a few years back at the level we are now today. We have a strong, let's say, list of initiatives that we are assessing, and we believe that we will be able to share more information in the coming, let's say, periods. And this will lead us in having a very good combination of organic growth based on the investments in our solutions and services that we have developed like the Card-as-a-Service solutions that we offer for our end-to-end in order to be able to offer end-to-end services to the financial institutions or the holistic citizen identity solutions that we have developed. So all these investments and also on the AI side, where we have recently also acquired capabilities in the space. And already, we are having a very good traction as far as the integrating our AI capabilities in the products and solutions that we offer. So the combination of the AI capability, the Citizen Identity Solutions and the Card-as-a-Service are going to be fueling the organic growth of the group and continuing on the path that we already have started in the course of the previous years. And additionally to that, we are qualifying, as I mentioned, margin-accretive acquisitions that can further step change the performance of the group and look at figures that will be completely different in the coming years once we are able to implement and integrate these acquisitions. So with that, I would like to give the opportunity to answer any questions you might have. As I said, we are strongly confident that we will be able in the balance of the year to reverse a significant part of the shortfall that we had to absorb for the reasons I explained. And we remain confident in the years to come to continue the growth trajectory we have recorded already.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Bourazanis Marios with Eurobank Equities.

Just a couple of questions from my side. If you could maybe expand a bit more on what's the road map for the card business looks like in the coming years. So maybe in which regions and products would you see the strongest opportunities over the next 12 to 18 months? This is the first question. And the second question is given that you reported stronger operating cash flow despite having softer revenue figures, if you could elaborate a bit more on what the levers that helped here were here? And if this is something that we should expect to continue in the second half?

First of all, thank you for your questions. Let me take the first one that has to do with the road map as far as the payment card business has to do. So we are in a very good position to have the ability to continue growing for 2 main reasons. One has to do with the fact that we are not overrepresented geographically, which means that our business has been very much Europe-centric up to now, and we have started making leeways in the regions of Middle East and Africa, where these -- especially Middle East and Africa pose a lot of potential for growth because there's a lot of unbanked, let's say, citizens, and they will move up the value chain, let's say, and starting getting a bank account, starting getting a card. So we anticipate that our focus that has been increasing in the recent periods in the Africa and Middle East region will be able to fuel the growth that we have on the payment cards business. And additionally to that, the second reason is on the fintech side, where we have been the market leader compared to large competitors of ours as we know, because in this space of the payment cards and the citizen identity solutions, we have large international, let's say, also players. But nevertheless, we have managed to be the market leader in the fintech side given the fact that we have seen and this is based on studies that we have, that there is a significant double-digit growth expected on the fintech and the financing is also there. These 2 elements, the geographical expansion and the fintech channel will be able to fuel the growth on this business to be very clear. As far as the -- let's say, the European banks is concerned, the traditional bank is concerned, we don't anticipate strong growth. We anticipate a medium, let's say, single-digit growth, and this is exactly what we have put in our growth strategy. But the combination of changing the weight of the fintechs, changing the weight of new geographies in the contribution of the group, we'll be able to push the needle up as far as the growth is concerned on the main business because this banking and cards business continues to be 2/3 of the business. So we have ways to continue growing that part of the business. Now as far as the operating cash flow, I don't know, Markus, if you want to say a couple of things on how this has been achieved and how we anticipate.

Yes, of course, thanks for giving me the question. So regarding operating cash flow, we talked about it last year. Last year, especially in H1 2024, we were hit by a significant working capital buildup, mainly in the area of inventory, where in H1 2024, basically the inventory went up -- excuse me, the working capital went up from EUR 58 million to EUR 74 million, whereas this year, the working capital remained in a similar level. as at year-end 2024. So basically, we had a significant negative impact from working capital in H1 2024. And now we have been working on our working capital. We have been discussing with our suppliers and renegotiated terms. And so this is showing now the fruits already now in H1 and will remain -- working capital will remain on a similar level in H2 as well. And 2026, it will go down substantially.

The next question is from the line of Grigoriou George with [ Wood & Co. ].

Going back to your guidance for the full year or at the EBITDA level. This implies a significant improvement in the second half of the year in terms of profitability, and I presume in revenues as well. Can you give us a bit more color because we've already gone through almost 2/3 of the third quarter. So will we see a material improvement in the -- already in the third quarter? Or should we expect it to all of it land in the fourth quarter? And related to the guidance question, because you mentioned as well about M&A. Is this guidance purely on organic terms? Or does it assume some M&A activity as well?

Thank you for the question. So I would say that the way the buildup for the remaining of the year, it will be starting to reflect from Q3, but it will be significantly even higher in Q4. What I want to highlight here, just to give a bit of a flavor of what is behind this, and it's certain 3, 4 parameters that will support this. I will name them. So the first one has to do on the Citizen Identity Solutions. We have the contracted, let's say, projects that we are implementing -- and these are going to be reflecting their contribution, both on the revenue line and the EBITDA line. And these are planned to be fully delivered before the end of the year. So we will be recognizing the majority of it in Q4 and part of it in Q3. The second significant one has to do with the digital public sector in Greece, where, as I said, in the beginning of the year, there's been a delay in -- not because of our, let's say, ability, but more on a bureaucratic administrative type of things, signing the contracts, giving the green light to start working. So this -- there is a significant buildup. As I said, we have contracted, let's say, projects that are in implementation, and they will strongly contribute. And they already -- this is going to be already contributing from Q3 and also continuing in Q4. So this will have a more even, let's say, going forward contribution month by month and quarter-by-quarter. The other one has to do with a large-scale project that we are implementing for an African country on the document life cycle. This is in implementation as we speak now. So this will contribute strongly in Q3. And in Q4, it will be completely over. So -- but the majority -- the big part of it will be also recognized in Q3. So this will support a lot of the Q3 performance. And last but not least, we also have some -- on the -- sorry, on the -- on the payment cards business, we have in Central and Eastern Europe, some renewals that have to do with some, let's say, Central Europe banks, which are coming in Q3 to be implemented. So -- and additional to that on the challenger banks, we have some significant orders that we have to deliver mainly, I would say, in Q4. So in a nutshell, Q3 will already show a reversal of the situation and Q4 will be closing completely the guidance that we gave. So this is the way the phasing is. And as I said, it's interesting to see the way in some years, our phasing is 50-50 and in some other years, like this one will be more like a 60-40 second half, first half. So that's why we assess the business on a full year basis because of the fact that this is not a linear business, as I mentioned, and there are some cyclicalities and peaks depending on either project delivery or based on the way the phasing of the orders is coming from the customers. So I believe was the question -- the first question. And the second question, as far as the M&A is concerned, the whole guidance and growth is purely organic. There's nothing built in that is inorganic. The inorganic growth will be contributing in the years to come once this is implemented. There's nothing that we are close to finalizing that will contribute in the course of this year.

The next question is from the line of [indiscernible] with [indiscernible].

I would like to ask a question regarding the new project in the public sector that we hear news about lately, which is in regards to the independent authority for public revenue. This is a project of around EUR 40 million that you compete. How important do you think is the project? And what strategic benefits do you see through this project?

So this project is one of many projects that we are implementing. So as you said, this is not yet concluded or, let's say, it's not been signed in order to start being implemented. What we are offering in all these projects has to do the public sector projects has to do mostly with our technology around data capture where we are using AI in order to be able to recognize the fields that are needed to be -- and then entered in platforms so that way, for example, they are able to get faster access to the information, being able to have the documents. It's not just capturing the images. Our job starts after capturing the images. We are not that much involved into scanning the documents. We are offering our capability that has to do mostly on the data capture using technology and being able to quickly get all this information available on platforms that we have developed where we are using artificial intelligence. And our platforms are quite educated because of the large scale of documents that we have let's say, recognized over the years because we have been doing this business not only for the public sector, but also in the private sector, both in Greece and abroad and in Romania, I would say. And as such, this sets us as one of the most capable and preferred, let's say, partners as far as the document capture and of the information is concerned and the platforms that have to do then with being able to pull the information and use the information in various forms. So the one that you mentioned, which was in the press recently is just one of many. We have others that have to do, for example, with the authority with FCA, which is issuing the pensions for the citizens. We have projects that have to do with the Ministry of Justice, with the Ministry of Health. So we have various contracted. This is public information that I'm sharing, projects that we have been awarded. And we are one of the most competent, I would say, organization that don't just get awarded as financial institutions that implement the project, but we actually do the job. So we are the ones that we have our own technology and our own platforms that we use. We don't need the external, let's say, third-party then providers to be able to do this job. We do it with our own resources.

Ladies and gentlemen, there are no further questions at this time. I will now pass the floor over to Mr. Kontos for any closing comments. Thank you.

Thank you very much. So first of all, thank you for your attention and for the questions raised and for giving us the opportunity to share some highlights for the year -- for the performance of the year up to now and also providing an outlook of this year. As a closing statement, I would like to reiterate the fact that this is an organization that has been growing strongly. It has a proven track record over the years with a double-digit growth, both in terms of top line and in terms of EBITDA, improving its margin profile from the levels of 10%, 11%, let's say, to targets that we have given that has to do with 14% margin and also looking into having a strong net income contribution in the years to come. What I want to reiterate here is that, as we know, we are now in the range of, let's say, EUR 400 million as far as turnover is concerned, EUR 50-plus million as far as EBITDA is concerned. This is not our ambition. This is not what we are working on. Our ambition is to strongly grow both the top line and the EBITDA line. As I said, this will be a combination of organic growth as far as the already existing solutions and service that we have, but also with value-accretive acquisitions. Our ambition is in the midterm to exceed EUR 0.5 billion as far as the revenue is concerned and continue working in the direction in order to continue having this business strongly growing and in the next few years to be at a completely different scale from the one that we are here. As I said, this is -- will be a combination of things that have to happen, but we already have quite strong focus in this direction, and we already have a track record that proves that we can implement against these commitments. So thank you again for your confidence and for your support in this -- in our business and in our share. And what I want to say as a closing point is that this is a business that should be assessed on a period over time and not on a short-term basis. We are an organization that is there to drive value in the midterm to long term and not just in the short term. So -- and as you can see from the history, we've been around for quite a number of years. So we have shown our resilience and our ability to continue transforming this organization. Thank you all, and I would like to wish you a great afternoon.

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference has now concluded, and you may disconnect your telephone. Thank you for calling, and have a pleasant afternoon.