Austriacard Holdings AG (ACAG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Audio Gap] with the presentation if we move to the next slide, please. So as I said, we'll have an overview, we'll have a solutions overview, and we'll also discuss about the strategy for growth and outlook. So starting from the overview. So the group, as we know, is an international identity and payment solution provider and which we have been focusing in the recent years into embedding technology in what we offer. So we have been able to grow more than 35x in terms of revenue over the last 3 decades and also improving a lot the EBITDA performance as such. We are headquartered in Vienna, and we are listed in the Athens and in the Vienna Stock Exchange. And we have, let's say, presence in 9 countries and a lot of sales offices across both Europe, U.S. and Middle East and Africa. So if we look at the financial performance in the recent, let's say, last year performance on the left side of the presentation, you will see that we have reached EUR 385 million in terms of revenue, growing 10% and also growing both our EBITDA and our net income, strong double digit, reaching almost EUR 20 million, the net income. And nevertheless, the debt has been maintained below EUR 100 million for the group, and we are employing around 2,400 people. But what is important to highlight here is the track record that we have shown over the past few years. So we see that from a revenue point of view, we've been able to grow CAGR terms 23%. And when we look at the EBITDA performance, it's even stronger, having a CAGR growth of 34%. What is interesting to highlight, and we will see this later on as we will get into the financials and the projections, we see that the EBITDA margin that just 5 years back was in the range of 10%. Now it's already at 14%, which this is the outcome of our effort in the recent years to keep on evolving our offering and getting more in a holistic service offering and having, let's say, the product side, which still is important, contributing in the whole performance, but complementing the products, let's say, with the service, and I will elaborate further on this side later on. And the net income part also with quite a strong performance. Last year, we reached EUR 20 million, and this is coming from very low levels just 4, 5 years back. If we look at the next slide, you see that just to give an -- because everyone sees the name, sees Austriacard, must be thinking we are just dealing with the banks. It's not the case. Of course, the banking sector is a significant one for us. But as you can see, we are providing our services also to insurance institutions to energy and telcos and retail. So we have quite a good landscape of customers that we serve. And these are customers that a lot of them we have been serving for a number of years. And this is also an enabler for us to be able to go and present to them new solutions when -- as we are evolving our offering. Now as we move down the presentation, the operational footprint, the only thing I wanted to highlight further is that you see that we are very Europe-centric in terms of operational presence. But we have increasing our physical, let's say, presence also in terms of sales offices. And you see that we have added a few new dots, let's say, in the Middle East and Africa. And this is because as I will elaborate during our presentation today, that part of the world is going to be a focus for the group, has been a focus in the recent years, but will continue being a focus. That's why we are increasing the presence because we believe that in order to be successful, you need to be close to the markets and have people on the ground so they can understand better the needs and address them accordingly. Quickly on the portfolio and why I say quickly because I will elaborate on each and every one of these pillars in detail as we progress in the presentation. So the middle part, identity and payment solutions, this is still the biggest part of the business, 2/3 of the business is around that, which that offering has from payment cards and citizen identity services, but also the service that have to do what we call Card as a Service. I have a slide that will explain what we mean Card as a Service. But the meaning is that we don't just provide the mean, which is the card, but also offer the technology and all the service around that in order to be able to do the payment -- to conduct the payment practically. On the digital technology side, which is the most recent, let's say, addition of the long history of this group, in the last 4, 5 years, we've been investing both organically and inorganically in this part. When I say inorganically, I mean that we have acquired companies over the course of the recent years in order to fast track, let's say, the offering and have a complementary offering that is needed for us. So this evolves from remote KYC, KYB onboarding customers, digitalization, data management, but also incorporating strongly artificial intelligence and have solutions that are using this technology. And this technology is embedded practically in all the services that we offer. And last but not least, the document life cycle management, which is the evolution of what used to be a printing, let's say, business, but now we are really focusing on personalized digital printing, but also on security documents and traceability. This is going to be a pillar of growth for us in the coming years. So now we will go in more details on this slide on the solutions. So as we move on the first one, which is the digital technologies. We want to give you a bit more information as far as the numbers is concerned. So you see that in 2024, we reached EUR 27 million, growing 70% versus 2023 and with a good mix in terms of contribution from both private and public sector. So you see private sector, which is the one we have been focusing over the course of the last years is the strongest contributor as far as share is concerned, around EUR 16 million of the EUR 27 million is coming from the private sector and growing strongly, 66%. And the other part, public sector, which is mainly Greece. And the reason I wanted to highlight this is because in the past, we have been talking about digital technologies and there were questions about, okay, but you are working just on this RRF projects that are in the Greek, let's say, market. This is not the case, as you can see, because a big part of the digital technology is coming from the private sector, which we have been able to grow, and we continue having a strong let's say, projection as far as that part of the business and which takes me exactly to the next part, which shows a bit more what is the pipeline we are talking about and what type of projects we are getting involved. So our services start from card and banking as a service. So the holistic offering when it comes to the not just issuing the card, but also doing all the services from the enrollment of the customer all the way to the usage and the payment. We also have a lot of investments done in the part that has to do with AI and what we call digital task force. We recently launched a platform called GaiaB, which is practically our solution that integrates AI in solutions like antimoney laundering or document understanding. So this is actual products and use cases that we are implementing. And if we look at the sectors that we serve on the Greek public side, as I said, these are the RRF finance projects. I just mentioned some of them that we are part of consortiums that are up and running. This is projects that are actively running in the course of this year, 2025. But even in the private sector, as you see there, it's not just financial institutions, but it's also utility and energy companies. And also, we have started recently because up to now, our focus on this part of the service was Greece and Romania because these were our pilot markets, let's call it, as far as the offering of digital services is concerned. But we are now investing in the Central Eastern Europe market, which is our core business, if you look on the banking side of the business, where we are targeting countries, Austria, which is our head office, obviously, Poland, Slovenia, Germany and Croatia are countries that we have presence. We have people on the ground, back to what I was saying before. And we are now preparing and rolling out the go-to-market strategy in order to be able to roll out products and solutions around digital technology. This is why it's giving us the confidence that we expect this pillar to contribute to have a growth of 20%, 25%. So this is the one that has the strongest growth projection as far as the group is concerned. If we move to the next, just the complementary of the industry, the obvious one, obviously. So the industry is growing as far as digital technology is concerned, 21%. There is a lot of investment from all the organizations. All the organizations have now put structures, which have digital transformation offices and in general, they're investing behind this. So it's a no-brainer that this is a category that has a lot of potential. Now moving to the next slide, please. We move now to the identum payment. Just to remind what I said in the beginning, this is the biggest part, and you can see it from the financials there. So last year, we reached EUR 222 million as far as revenue is concerned. The reason it shows flat is because as we have communicated also in our full year publishment of results, we took a choice to disinvest in the wholesale chip business, which is not the full product and full solution, which was causing EUR 20 million. If you take that part out, this category grew organically 10% even in the course of 2024. The growth driven by Middle East, Africa and Turkey was a strong contributor. I'm highlighting this from now that Turkey has reached somehow a level that cannot continue growing strongly as it used to grow because we are now reaching a very high market share as far as the Turkish market is concerned and also combined with the macroeconomic challenges and the fact that the banks also took a very conservative approach by keeping a lot of stock level in -- which they have obviously bought and paid, which leads us to not expect the growth to come from the Turkish market at least in the course of this year. there might be also some adjustment that needs to be done. Nevertheless, that's why where our presence and footprint helps. We have a lot of opportunities in the Middle East and Africa, and that's why we're looking to grow this category in -- from the Middle East and Africa, including Turkey, the Arab countries, let's say, and the African countries to be the ones contributing the growth. So if we look at the pipeline, if we move to the next slide. So here, I highlight 2, 3 markets that are focus markets, let's say, for us. And I will also elaborate a bit more on the citizen and identity services, which you will hear more and more from us on this. This is the part that we are looking to grow the most. It has the smallest, let's say, contribution up to now, but has the highest potential for the group going forward. So Middle East and Africa is the focus market for us as far as the citizen identity solution, and I will share a bit the holistic approach we are using for this going forward. So we are moving away from just offering the citizen identity card where you will see we are moving to offer the whole life cycle of these documents -- and I have a chart to elaborate specifically on this. Then as far as the rest of the markets, Western Europe and it's not by chance, is a focus for us in U.S. because in Central and Eastern Europe, we have a very strong position, and we have a leadership position, let's say, in those markets, but we still have a lot of room to grow. In U.K., although in fintech, we are market leader by far as far as the fintech channel is concerned, we still have a lot of room to grow as far as the regional U.K. banks and with all the situation and everyone looking to source more locally and closer to the consumer needs, our footprint there, having both a production site and a personalization site enables us to become qualified as a partner for the regional banks in U.K. U.S. has been a market entry we did a few years back. Things are -- with all the challenges that U.S. has, obviously, that you know and we read. We still believe that the market has potential to grow. And the growth we expected to come from both the fintech and the regional banks. Now we have overcome, let's say, our initial challenges of getting set up, having the right processes, systems, people in place. This is all behind us. So now we can focus on really growing market share in that market. And a very new market entry for us where we invested in structure is the French market, where we intend to start serving fintechs there. The reason there is also the payment schemes that you need to have in order to serve the French market. So we decided to start with the fintechs to get some traction there and continue growing after that. This gives us, let's say, the plan that we have in the next 3 years is to this category as a whole to grow around 6%, 7% from the base that it is now. If you look now at the next one that has to do with the industry and the market trends. So on the left side of the chart, you see the fintech side. And the reason I'm highlighting the fintech side because we have a #1 position there, serving the fintechs. So you see the fintechs already, the challenger banks have managed to reach 12% market share. So from the nonexisting, let's say, situation that it was 5, 6 years ago, 7 years, let's say, ago, now they managed to have 12%. So now even the big banks start looking at them. We are well positioned in this channel. We have 51% market share, and we still see potential to grow. And on the right side, you see the North America part, again, where the Challenger Banks have only 6%, half of the European, let's say, situation. That's why our focus on both fintech and regional, let's say, banks gives us the confidence that we can grow our market share in that part of the world. Going to the next one. So just on the projection of the fintechs, I will not elaborate further. You see 6% expected CAGR growth. This is from market research, and this is not our numbers. But what I want to say here is that from the largest fintechs, the top fintechs in Europe, we already serve 4 of them. So Revolut, Monzo, N26, Starling are our customers. So we are not only serving the small fintechs, but we are serving the large-scale fintechs, and we are trusted partners for a number of years with them. There is also a lot of discussion about smart cards and what's going to happen with the smart cards and if this type of business will not be there. What I want to say is that this is the mean, the whole idea behind the smart card is not just the card itself, but the technology and the operating system and the ability to use this card to do your payment. And nevertheless, even the actual mean, which is the card, you see there is a projection of 8.5% from '25 to 2030. And on the metal cards, which has been a focus also for us as far as the offering is concerned, an even stronger increase. You see metal cards back in 2021, even in North America were around 20 million units, and they have reached already 35 million. And what I can tell you is that from all the interactions we have with customers, there is a great demand on metal cards, especially from the fintechs because this is -- these channels, as you know, don't have a lot of other touch points. So the only touch point they have is practically the card. So they're taking a lot of attention on the type of cards and the features and the benefits that they give around this. It's not just the card as a prestige, let's say, thing to hold, but it's also with all the benefits that come with it. So our focus on having offering around this pays off. Document life cycle. So this is EUR 135 million business for us. You see that there is a gray slice there in that circle that shows around EUR 20 million. This is the security document traceability. This is the part that we will be focusing, especially in the Africa region going forward. This is something that started like running elections a few years back, but now has moved in more recurring revenue situation. We are getting engaged in projects that are just every 3, 4, 5 years, but projects that are annual, and we are utilizing our expertise as far as the security documents and traceability solutions. So it's not just a print of paper, it's the whole ecosystem around it. So going forward, this will be our focus, especially in the African region, especially on the security document side. And just to give you a bit of flavor on what we talk about this Middle East and Africa projects because you see there on the chart, I'm just referring to this. So it's projects like national examinations, which has to do from holistic project from getting the data, personalizing this by student, by, let's say, school collecting the answers, scanning the documents, extracting information, giving the results. So we are doing the whole thing. We're not just printing a paper and sending to the schools. We are doing from the data management to the data collection and to the extraction of the results. This is a very interesting case. We have run it already a year. We are running it again. So we expect these type of projects to roll them out in more countries because now we have created a name and a reference. We were very successful in this. So there's more coming our way. Elections, as I said, there will still be projects that we will be going after. But to be honest, we don't even include them in our projections. So when you see here the projection that we are giving, this 4% to 6% is not including elections. We consider elections has a good upside to come, and it's not factored in our projections that we show below. So this is the type of pipeline. We are talking about the security, the document life cycle. If we move now to the next part of our presentation, which is our proposition. So if you look at our proposition, where do we stand compared to competition. So you see that we have large-scale competitors, but they are not really that focused as us. So this is one thing we need to have in mind. So you see names like Thales. I'm sure you know them, they're spanning from defense all the way to having also a part of the business which is competing to us, which is the payment side. Giesecke+Devrient is, German company, which is closer to us, I would say, in terms of offering, but they also have a part of the business which is not relevant as far as the banknotes and they also do this type of business. But there is a big part of the business, which is similar to us. And IDEMIA, another French, let's say, company. And CPI is just in the U.S. I just put it because it's a listed company in the U.S. So I also put a U.S. competitor, let's say, which is just focusing on cards. So what is our strength compared to these companies. As I said, we have close proximity to the market. So we are very close, let's say, to the business that we serve, and we have -- this enables us to have a very good reaction time and service level. We also are very known in the fintech sector, which compared to the competition and the market share says, it's not what I say, it's what the market share that we have. So clearly, this is a competitive advantage that we have since this sector is also having a lot of potential for growth. We have our own internal operating system, and we have a very good control on security and customization. As I said, we are not just producing the card. We have the whole operating system and technology around it. And we are embedding AI with internal, let's say, capabilities that we have acquired. So we acquired one of the acquisitions that we did a year ago was acquiring a company that is specializing in AI and from 2017, '18, which is a lot of years, as you can imagine, in this type of technology. So there's a lot of knowledge that we have there. Last but not least, we have an international team. As you can see, the gentlemen with me today, none of them are Greek. So the organization is really international. And if you look at the footprint and presence, Greece, by the way, is 10% of the business. The rest of the business is abroad. So we are proud that we started from Greece, but we're also very proud that we managed to get out of the Greek territory and be able to have now presence from all the way from U.S. all the way to South Africa to Johannesburg. So if we move on, so just a glance on the management team. Okay, you know Mr. Lykos and myself, I'm sure, but you see that we are the only Greeks that you see there. But the rest of the management team is Markus, which is with me here today; Jon Neeraas, who is running Western Europe and U.S., huge experience in this field, started with the fintech from day 1. Burak Bilge, strong knowledge in the banking sector and has been working in both Europe and now is running our Turkey, Middle East and Africa. And Mr. Mohamed Chemloul with a very strong technology background and experience, worked with a large semiconductor company listed, so brings a lot of experience and knowledge. And we have been able with his contribution to fast track a lot of the product and solutions because he's heading the solutions teams and also working a lot with the go-to-market with the commercial teams. So this is who we are as far as the management team is concerned. Now if we look at the strategy for growth and what are the challenges? Obviously, there's challenges that everyone is facing like the macroeconomic and the uncertainty in both the U.S. and Europe and all these tariffs and all these other factors. Of course, the landscape, as I said in Turkey, why do I highlight Turkey? Because it's a big market for us. Just to give you an idea, it's in the top 4 markets as far as size for the group. That's why you see me referring to Turkey again. But the other challenge that we have is that we started this evolution of our offering with the digital solutions from Greece and Romania, and the challenge is now how to get it out of this territory. So this is where we are -- first, we need to be convinced. Our teams have to be convinced that the teams outside Greece and Romania, of course, these teams are convinced, but the rest of the organization has to be convinced that we have what it takes, we have the expertise, and we can get this rolled out to the rest of the group. So we are moving, and you will hear us saying more and more about this to a more comprehensive end-to-end solutions both for fintech and others. We are expanding significantly our presence in new regions and focusing on citizen identity solutions and payment services as a whole. And we are integrating AI in all the solutions that we do, not just for banking, but also for the other channels and customers that we serve. So if we can now go to the next one, please. So I will take one by one now the growth strategy. We have 3 pillars of growth. So the first one, which is the geographical expansion, our focus markets, which I touched base on them a bit before. U.K., we want to move away from just 100% fintech customer base, I would say that we have, although it's a strong customer base, but it's a fintech customer base, and we want to move into Tier 2 banks and also enhance the offering there, especially for the fintechs to be able to offer a whole Card as a Service. I have a slide that I will elaborate and explain what card as a service means. This is expected to contribute additional EUR 8 million to EUR 10 million in the next 3 years. If we look at the French market, it's a completely new entry. We have strong expectations. We have a very strong professional that is on the ground there that knows the market inside out and is helping us getting traction in the French market. That's why we are confident. We feel confident that we can get some good traction in the next years from the French market, which we have been nonexistent, nonpresent. And then last but not least, MEA, which is the strongest, as you can see, contributor going forward, which is both on the banking side, targeting Tier 1 and Tier 2 banks, but also especially and having all the regional schemes, what you see there, some Africa, these are regional schemes in order to be able to serve the banks in the region, and we have them all ticked these boxes or we are ticking them in order to be able to qualify to offer our banking, let's say, services there. But what is also very important is this holistic citizen identity services -- and for this one, I have exactly another slide. So you will see 2 slides later on, on these 2 topics. Second is the market share expansion. So as I said, we are moving from a product supplier to an end-to-end solutions provider. We have now completed our corporate structure as far as the roles that we need. Why do we need these roles and someone said, okay, you didn't have these roles. No, we had obviously a lot of these roles, senior roles in the organization. But as we are moving both organically and inorganically, you need to have the right central functions to be able to integrate properly these additional companies that we are bringing on board and there are new ventures that we are embarking on. That's why it's now the time to have a Chief Operating Officer, Mohamed as I said, is already with us a year and has bring a lot of value and traction. And we're also going to be adding a group Human Resource Officer to be able to integrate, assess talent and develop people in the group. And continue what we have been doing and doing it more, putting more salespeople in the field. So this is something we have been doing a long time now, but we still keep on investing in having people on the ground, boots on the ground, I used to say. So people that are there in the market and not sitting in a central office and try to manage through airplanes. From my previous experience, this doesn't work. I've been on a plane all my career. What I can tell you is that unless you spend time in the markets, you will not be able to succeed anything. All these people that fly around that are just people are laughing at them when they leave for the airport. so the other thing we continue doing is looking at acquisitions in order to enhance our solution offering. We are focusing, as you saw, Western Europe and U.S. because we are underrepresented and under-indexed. So we want to increase our market share, especially for the banking side and the services side of the organization. Look, continue qualifying on the digital space to enhance our offering, as you see, I'm talking a lot about holistic citizen solutions or citizen biometrics -- and this is a direction that we are looking and also payment processing and AI. And size of opportunities, ballpark number around EUR 80 million. The group has the size and the ability, let's say, to run these type of acquisitions. And this is the type of -- as you grow, these are the type of business that if you add a meaningful business to add, let's say. If we move on, yes, this is a few acquisitions we have run in the past. You see already run 4, 5 acquisitions in recent years. All of them have been integrated successfully and have been contributing successfully in the performance of the group. If we move on. So on the product side, which is the third pillar, we are -- now the objective is to shift to a solution-led and recurring revenue models. So this is what we want to achieve. So the drivers for this is we are looking into territories, as I said, Europe, MENA and Lat Am. We know there's a lot of regulatory acceleration in these regions. We're investing in R&D for Products & Solutions, and we are developing comprehensive end-to-end solutions for these services that you see there. If we go to the next slide. So this is what I was saying about the citizen identity value chain. So this starts from the enrollment of the citizen, capturing the biometric, doing the validation with this fingerprint and biometric databases that you can go and compare against producing the card -- by the way, we were only doing the IT production that you see there in this chart. So now you see that we are involving all the value chain, doing the personalization and doing the verification of that document in document readers. So this is a graphical way of presenting what I said, providing the value chain. And this increases, let's say, our, let's say, IP as far as the group is concerned and control of these projects. And we are integrating in this offering our digital platforms in order to -- for the coming wave of the security IT digitalization. The next one has to do with the Banking as a Service. So again, here, you see that there was a part that we were involved in, which had to do with the card issuance and enablement. But now we are engaged from the onboarding and compliance, doing the quasi, doing the antimoney laundering check of the person, the fraud detection prevention, issuing the card, offering the payment processing IBAN, integrating these virtual cards in Google Pay or Apple Pay and also doing there after the usage after the users, let's say, the scheme fees, reconciliation, the analytics. And this is what we believe is a strong contributor going forward to get engaged beyond just providing the mean, but also providing insights on the usage of the service. Just some financials because we also have financial people attending. So you see that from the CapEx point of view, we've been investing around EUR 70 million in the last 3 years. What you keep from this slide is that we continue seeing investments in the range of 4%, 5% of revenue, and this will be against product development, of course, maintaining operations, but also investing in infrastructure and security systems. Next one, on the liquidity, we have a very strong operating cash flow generation. As you saw in 2024, we reached EUR 34 million. And as far as our debt is concerned, it's below EUR 100 million. Net debt to EBITDA below 2. And we have, let's say, what is needed in order to be able to continue investing behind the acquisitions that I said before. So last, the outlook part. So if we look at the outlook part. So our strategy, just summarizing what I've said, is to be a holistic solution provider; and b, a prime partner. So not just provide a part of the contract, but to manage the whole contract going forward. This is the idea. We make sure that we integrate technology in the foundation of our offering. That's why we invested in getting people and know-how in order to do so. We want to continue increasing our market share, both organically and inorganically. And we look to improve our profit margins by having -- reducing, let's say, the reliance on the product side and having more end-to-end solutions, which has a better margin profile. And we will obviously want to generate the cash flow needed in order to do this. And the way to do this is that we need to have the right team in which we believe we have a lot of good talent in the organization and experience in the fields that we are operating in order to be able to successfully roll out this. And I will close by giving also some financial direction for the 3 years. So our financial direction for the coming 3 years, including 2025 to 2027, we are targeting a growth -- organic growth, I emphasize, this is not including any inorganic acquisitions in the range of 6% and 7% as far as the revenue is concerned. Our EBITDA margin -- look to improve our EBITDA margin, it's in the range of 14% in 2024, and we are looking to expanding into 15% to 17%. And investing, as I said, 4%, 5% of our revenue in CapEx and also the dividend policy to be in the range of 20% to 25%. And the net debt to EBITDA kept around 2 as far as the regular operations is concerned, excluding M&A. So with this, we conclude our presentation. Thank you for your attention, and we have the time to get some questions and answers, I suppose.

Questions first from the online audience, then the in-person participants and then all the written questions we will receive. So please go ahead. So we have a question from Evangelia Aravani.

Evangelia Aravani from Euro Securities. I have 2 questions on my end. My first question is if you could provide some color on the EBITDA margins per category for 2025. And my second question is on working capital, whether you view working capital normalizing from 2025 onwards.

So I'll give a bit of guidance on the EBITDA margins, as you say, on category, although we don't, let's say, publish as such. So I will refer mostly on the -- not on the projection of '25, but on the '24, let's say, level. So the direction that you need to keep is that as far as the digital technology is concerned, we are talking in the high teens at this stage. So this is what you keep for the digital category part, the first one. Then if you look at the payments and identity, we are in the middle, let's say, teens, the margin that we are looking at. and then the document life cycle is a bit lower. So all of them are double digits. And there is a scale from a high on the digital technology part on the lower side, the document life cycle one and in the middle, which explains also the 4% because, as you know, the citizen identity and Payment Solutions is 2/3 of the business. So this explains how the average comes up to 14%. As far as the working capital, Markus, do you want to say a few things.

Regarding working capital, for 2025, we don't yet see a normalization or return to previous levels of working capital. It will be in a similar level as we saw in 2024. From 2026 onwards, we expect a normalization and the reduction of our main working capital KPI, which is working capital in percentage of revenues.

We have the next question is from Marios Bourazanis.

Just 2 quick questions from my side as well. I was just wondering if you could maybe give us some more color on the landscape of the French market and the dynamics that you see there. You mentioned that this is a market that seems very interesting to you and that you are hoping to scale. So this is my first question. And also just as a follow-up, if you could give us any updates on the backlog for digitization projects, either in Greece or Romania or maybe at the group level.

So let me start by saying that the French market has quite a lot of potential. But as you saw, we start with a modest, let's say, projections because we haven't been present there. That's why you saw us saying around EUR 6 million to EUR 8 million of contribution in terms of revenue. It's quite developed both on the side of the regional banks, and there is a lot of French banks, as you know, that have also regional presence in the region, but also the fintech side. So we are focusing now on the fintech side, which is strongly growing in the French market, and that's why we decided to start with that. But as I said, from a revenue projection from our side, we are talking about EUR 6 million in the next 2, 3 years. So we will revisit this. It's very early for me to give more firm information. We'll have to see how the pipeline is developing. And now as far as the part that has to do with the Greek, I would say, public sector because for the public sector side, this is only Greece. We don't have much happening on the Romanian side. In the Romanian side, It's mostly private sector that we've been serving for a number of years. So on the Greek side, there is a good, let's say, around EUR 50 million to EUR 60 million in terms of revenue to be executed in the next couple of years as far as the Greek public sector is concerned.

We have a question from Anna Maria Beritzi. Next question is from Bill Kalabrochos. There's one more chat question here. So I'm going to read from Mr. Rok Stibric. There's a question that, I would like to have 3 questions. First of all, when referring to expected contribution over the next 3 years, did you have in mind revenues or net income? Second one, will you be providing more detailed outlook for 2025 next week within your Q1 results? And third part, perhaps it's still too soon given dynamic changes, but do you maybe have a ballpark estimate on tariff impacts on your bottom line?

I didn't hear the last question, sorry?

So perhaps maybe it's too soon given dynamic changes, but do you maybe have a ballpark estimate on tariff impacts on your bottom line.

So the first question, the answer is that it's revenue. What I gave as projections, what we showed there. Second question was...

Second question was will you be providing...

Guidance, yes. Since we gave a 3-year guidance in order to be -- our intention is to give an updated guidance in the first half because we want to conclude some of the initiatives that we are running. So our intention is to give a more -- we will give some direction, let's say, in the quarter, but a more firm guidance for the year, we intend to give it in the first half of the year. And the last question that had to do with the tariffs, Markus, you want to take this one?

Regarding the impact of the tariffs, it's still very early because a lot of things are moving in this area. But generally, we would like to be -- that our footprint in the U.S. would be bigger. But given it's still not so huge, we don't expect a huge impact from the tariffs. Also, we have local production and personalization. So we are in the position to counter the effect of the tariffs. So it will not be a significant factor with respect to our results.

Here is another question from Katherine Thompson. What kind of interest have you seen in your card as a service offering so far?

So this is getting -- we have completed maybe we should say where we developed.

Maybe let's have a look at what is the offering we are talking about and what market we're trying to address. So if you look at the 3 segments, traditional banks, challenger banks and then the fintech, we think that the starting target group of customer will be the fintech. Why? Very simple. Except maybe Revolut, as you have seen, is not anymore a start-up going into fintech business, but we see emerge in different regions, not only in U.K. of these start-up companies, usually, what they do, they start with crypto money. So let's go from offering Bitcoins, the most popular ones, but there are others. And then they figure out that the customer of theirs, they're asking for payment needs. So how do I pay? I want to shop around. So our offering comes exactly at this point. They are small. that they don't have a big IT department that will set up everything. So we are tailoring one-stop shop where they would have the card issue in, whether it's virtual or physical. Physical is still demanded, as you have heard before, and there is a processing of the payment and transaction behind. So what we have developed as of now is the ability to give them a platform in the cloud certified, means to cover all these needs for them. They can be onboarded, they can issue cards, issue bank accounts to their customers. So you're talking IBANs. And then there are transactions running on this. Next to it, we have an offering that we are extending to our customers. And this one not only for fintech, but can go to traditional banks, which is reporting and data mining of their transactions so that brings some reduction in costs and reconciliation. So I hope this covered question.

We don't have any more questions from the online participants. Do you have any questions in person?

From George Alexakis on the security documents traceability. No, there's no projections or growth expected from Greece. This part of the business is purely for the African market.

Thank you. Any questions? Any more questions from the audience?

Constantinos Carles from Europe Securities. There is a line in the presentation regarding acquisitions and the size of opportunities up to EUR 80 million. Can you explain it is on the revenue or on the cost of the acquisitions. And the second, very important, you mentioned that the end-to-end solutions is the target to increase regarding the mix of the sales, where it is now as a simple statistic and where is expected to go in the next, let's say, 3 years?

So the first part, I will answer. This is in terms of cost, the EUR 80 million that we have there. And the second part, I think, Mohamed, you can take this question, please.

We'll start with the second one. So I'll start briefly, but Austriacard has, as of, let's say, end of last year, IPs and solution offering, whether it's product or solution, let's call them offering to markets in a fragmented way. What I mean by that, we have IPs that if we leverage across different applications, I will give a concrete example, then we will be able to upsell, which has a consequence on revenue, obviously, but more important as well on the margin itself. How does it work? So we were -- there was a question about security printing and other application. Let's say, concretely the identification citizens and so on. When you go to this market, you need 3 items. You need the volumes, we are lucky because Africa has a huge population. You need access to the market. Austriacard can leverage from what we have done so far. And then you need something important, which is the offering, including the right value proposition. And our value proposition is saying, okay, you want to digitize or introduce document citizens, then we will give you a turnkey solution, and it's not only the card. So if you sell a card in a project, let's stick to Africa. And let's say, we are selling 2 million cards. And just to give an example for calculation, we are -- every card will cost EUR 2. Then 2x2, we have 4 million euros or dollars as a project volume in terms of revenue. And the margin, I will address with the same example. So you're talking like it was mentioned before, low end of the double-digit teens in terms of margin. Now if you go with the same project in the same country and you say, look, I can give you the cards, still the 2 million, let's say, 2 million per year. I can give you all the machines. I take the responsibility to give you the whole project, then you're not talking EUR 2 million in terms of project value. You're talking at least 10 million -- so only for Austriacard -- for everyone of between 3 to 10 going from the cards to the full system. Why? Because there's a lot of software included with the hardware. And as we know, the software is a revenue that usually is placed between 50% to 80% in terms of margin. And you're talking hardware, which is combined. So the mix will bring the margin up. There is another aspect, and I will finish with this one. If you go -- and let's say, we are producing the same project, we are delivering this equipment and so on. We are not planning to go and manufacture hardware machines of the factory to personalize the cards. And so we work with partners. So we have to share the margin with this partner in the project. Now let's talk about where we can cover with our -- at the same time, as a summary, we are increasing the margin because we're not sharing everything. We're sharing where it makes sense. Second, we are increasing the -- we are addressing the higher value in terms of the revenue of the project itself. And if we replicate this, this is for ID. And as I said, ID, we are well positioned as a group because we are seen as Greek, Austrian and so on, we have advantage in some African countries. Think about the macro economy in Western Africa and some countries, North Africa, compared to our competitors, we have access. So that's the access. The volume is there, and we have the IP and the leverage.

I would like to add to this point that one important thing about going to solutions is also by delivering it, the business itself becomes more sticky to us. If you just deliver the cards, you could be tendered and you may lose it in some time already next year by delivering solutions. We are more integrated with our partners and the result, it becomes more of a recurring business.

Do you have any more questions? And we don't have any more questions.

So if there's no further questions, I would like to thank the people, first of all, that came physically, took the effort to come and see us in person. People on the screen, we don't see them, but we see them here. So thank you for taking the time and seeing us in person. And also thank all the rest of the audience that joined us in this, first, let's say, hybrid Investor Day that we did. What we plan to do is that since we started this week, we will continue providing more insights and information as we go forward in order to keep this communication open, and we look forward to answering any questions that you might come to you even after the close of this event. This information will be available online. So whoever wants to refer to it, it will be on our website, so you can have a look at and ask any questions to any of us. Thank you again, and have a great day.

Thank you.