BASF SE (BAS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

July 29, 2026

XTRA DE Materials Chemicals earnings 72 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Unknown Executive

executive
#1

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and a warm welcome to our press conference. Today, we are going to present the financial figures of BASF Group for the second quarter 2026. And I would like to welcome our Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, Markus Kamieth and Dirk Elvermann, our CFO. So before we begin, let me give you a few points of housekeeping. The conference language is German and there's going to be a simultaneous translation into English. The presentation is available for download at basf.com and the direct link for that will be found in the chat. So let's start with the presentation, and we are looking forward to your questions afterwards. And the floor is yours, Markus.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#2

Thank you, Thomas. Before I start, welcome to you. It's your first press conference in your not brand-new position, but welcome again, and we look forward to having a few more press conferences with you. .

Unknown Executive

executive
#3

Thank you. .

Markus Kamieth

executive
#4

Good morning to you. Dirk Elvermann, and I are pleased to welcome you to today's press conference. In mid-July, we already pre-released our results for the second quarter as our EBITDA before special items considerably exceeded average analyst expectations. We were able to increase earnings in nearly all segments. This was driven by stronger prices and higher volumes as well as lower cash fixed costs. We thus further strengthen BASF's position in the market and made major advances with our restructuring as well as portfolio measures. At our annual press conference in February, I presented to you our priorities for 2026. Today, I'm pleased to say that we are making very good progress in all these areas. We have reduced our costs. We have brought down our capital expenditures. We have increased capacity utilization at our plants. Our team in Zhanjiang successfully ramped up the new Verbund site and the sale of our coatings activities marks an important step forward with our value-enhancing portfolio measures. As you can see, we are successfully implementing our Winning Ways strategy. We will provide you with more details about that later. To begin, let's take a closer look at BASF's sales development and the key influencing factors. In light of the geopolitical developments, we are presenting monthly figures compared with the corresponding months of the prior year. These figures are adjusted to exclude the impact of metals on sales in the Surface Technologies segment. At the beginning of the year, declining prices for key raw materials such as naphtha and natural gas resulted in lower sales prices. Following the escalation of the conflict in the Middle East and the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz, this trend reversed in the second quarter of 2022. In response, we successfully implemented significant price increases, particularly in our upstream businesses. We also achieved considerable volume growth throughout the first half of 2026. This was supported by the start-up of our new Verbund site in China. Another decisive factor was our ability to maintain uninterrupted supply by leveraging our local-for-local production footprint by flex feed, steam crackers and dedicated trading operations to source key feedstocks. BASF's unique setup DID and DAS provide a clear competitive advantage. Volume growth accelerated significantly in March. The high uncertainty in the markets led customers to secure supply through some advanced purchases. In the second quarter, volumes continued to grow considerably compared with the prior year months particularly in the core businesses. Currency headwinds eased over recent months. Moreover, portfolio effects were minor and were mainly caused by the sale of the decorative paints as well as the food and health performance ingredients businesses in the second half of 2025. A slightly positive portfolio effect resulted from the acquisition of Ag biotech, a company specializing in biological insect control solutions completed in March this year. Ladies and gentlemen, let's now take a brief look at regional volume and price developments compared with the prior year quarter, once again, excluding metal sales. Following the strong momentum in the first quarter of 2026, we continue to deliver considerable volume growth in Greater China, supported by the successful ramp-up of our new Verbund site in Zhanjiang. As a result of the Middle East conflict, prices rose significantly in Greater China as well as in almost all other regions, particularly in the upstream businesses. In Asia Pacific, excluding Greater China, we also recorded considerable volume growth, mainly driven by the Chemicals segment. In this region, too, prices rose considerably, especially in the Materials and Chemicals segments. In Europe, all core businesses contributed to the volume growth. Prices in Europe increased strongly, especially in the Chemicals and Materials segments. In North America, we recorded slightly lower volumes mainly on account of a scheduled turnaround of the steam cracker in Port Arthur, Texas. By contrast, prices increased considerably. Now let's move to earnings by segment. EBITDA before special items rose significantly by 54% to EUR 2.4 billion. This increase was primarily driven by continued volume growth and higher specific margins. Earnings grew in all segments except Surface Technologies. The strongest contributors were the core businesses, particularly the Materials, Chemicals and Industrial Solutions segments. Other also contributed to the considerable earnings increase, mainly due to commodity derivatives used for hedging. In the Materials segment, higher contribution margins and lower fixed costs led to a considerable increase in EBITDA before special items. The strongest contributions came from the polyurethane and ammonia value chains. The Chemicals segment recorded a considerable increase in earnings, mainly driven by the Petrochemicals division due to higher contribution margins. Scheduled maintenance turnarounds in Ludwigshafen and of the cracker at the Port Arthur side were a drag on earnings growth. The Industrial Solutions segment also delivered strong results. The significant earnings improvement was driven by lower fixed cost in the Performance Chemicals division and higher contribution margins in the Dispersions & Resins division. In Nutrition & Care, segment earnings came in slightly above the level of the prior year quarter, mainly due to lower fixed cost in the Care Chemicals division. By contrast, EBITDA before special items in the Surface Technologies segment fell considerably. Compared with the prior year quarter, earnings in the ECMS division declined mainly because of lower earnings in precious metal services. This was partly offset by higher earnings in the emissions catalyst business. In the Battery Materials division, earnings declined due to the expiry of subsidies, which led to higher fixed costs compared with the prior year quarter. Let's now turn to Agricultural Solutions in more detail. The next key milestone for our largest and most profitable stand-alone business is achieving IPO readiness by mid-2027, and we are well on track here. Agricultural Solutions delivered a very robust performance in the first half of this year. While sales declined slightly on account of currency headwinds and slightly lower prices, we captured volume growth in all regions. Volumes rose particularly in fungicides, herbicides and seed treatment. Thanks to the earnings increase in the second quarter, EBITDA before special items almost matched the strong level recorded in the first half of 2025. In the current market environment, this is a strong achievement by the team. At 29%, the EBITDA margin before special items almost matched the level of the first half of the prior year. Ladies and gentlemen, as I mentioned at the start, we are continuing our efforts to further enhance BASF's competitiveness. We have once again accelerated the pace to make our global organization more streamlined and efficient. As you can see on this slide, in the first half of 2026, we already reduced more positions than in the prior 2 years combined. I'd like to emphasize 2 figures that further illustrate the momentum behind our efforts. From January 2024 until the end of June 2026, we reduced the number of employees worldwide by 7,000. This figure excludes both the reductions resulting from divestitures and the workforce buildup associated with our Zhanjiang, Verbund site. And in May 2026, the number of FTEs at BASF SE in Ludwigshafen, was brought below 30,000 for the first time since 1954. This is an important and necessary step towards restoring the site's competitiveness. Now let me continue with further updates on the structural improvements at our Ludwigshafen Verbund site. We are well advanced with the necessary asset restructuring. Since 2024, the share of highly competitive production units at this site has increased from 78% to 88%. Ludwigshafen is by far our largest site with a very broad and diversified portfolio of upstream and downstream chemicals and a very high degree of integration. Over the past few years, the site has increasingly focused on supplying the European market. This is in line with our global strategy of local-for-local production. More recently, plant utilization rates improved amid the supply disruptions caused by the Middle East conflict. We will continue to review and adjust our asset portfolio as needed so that we can be a reliable and best-in-class supplier for our customers from various industries. We are also fully on track with our cost-saving programs and very confident of achieving our target of annual cost savings of around EUR 2.3 billion by the end of the year. At the end of June, the measures already implemented were equivalent to annual cost savings of EUR 2 billion. We continue to expect total onetime costs of at least EUR 1.9 billion by year-end 2026. We have also made progress with our portfolio measures. As you know, we successfully closed the Coatings transaction with Carlyle on June 30. The enterprise value of the transaction amounted to EUR 7.7 billion and the cash consideration received was around EUR 5.8 billion on a pretax basis. The disposal gain after taxes of EUR 3.5 billion is reflected in net income and earnings per share of BASF Group in the second quarter. We now hold a 40% equity share in the company, [ Cervantes. ] Through this equity stake, we will continue to participate in the future value creation of the Coatings business while sharpening BASF's strategic focus. This successful closing marks a key milestone in the swift execution of our Winning Ways strategy to unlock the value of BASF stand-alone businesses. We have also accelerated the sell-down of our participation in Harbour Energy. Since March 2026, this has generated cash proceeds of more than EUR 800 million for BASF. We have monetized a significant portion of our participation in Harbour Energy and reduced our stake in the company to below 25%. This was achieved through the sale of 80 million shares via a so-called accelerated book building in March 2026. The agreed block sale of 150 million shares in May and a number of smaller share sales into the market. Our remaining share in the company is currently worth roughly EUR 1 billion. As communicated on various occasions, it is our strategy to exit the financial investment in Harbour Energy over time while being mindful of the value. Ladies and gentlemen, with the stand-alone businesses on their own successful parts, our core has become more focused and coherent. This creates new opportunities for our core businesses to unlock synergies and to work more effectively together across BASF. As announced in May, we aim to operate the core businesses at up to 20% lower net cash fixed cost by 2029 compared with the 2024 baseline. In the first half of 2026, our ongoing measures to improve competitiveness already led to a 4% reduction in net cash fixed costs in the core compared with the prior year period. And there was strong positive momentum in the second quarter. This figure relates to BASF's core businesses and other and is adjusted for currency, portfolio and onetime effects making it comparable. Since the baseline for core shift is 2024, part of the cost savings measures already initiated contribute to the program. However, core shift will go significantly further. We will create a new tailor-made operating model for our core and leverage synergies across the core businesses, R&D, service units and corporate units. We focus our activities on what truly matters. We harmonize our processes across the core and expand the use of AI and we standardize our systems and tools to create even more synergies, reducing variety, enforcing common solutions and focusing on what works best overall. At the same time, we increased flexibility, for example, in task location and organizational design to realize cost savings and benefit from synergies through bundling. In a nutshell, we change what holds us back and boost what makes us strong. This will position us to win in our markets and create the financial flexibility we need to keep strengthening and growing our core businesses. I'm convinced that our core has the scale and strength to lead the focus to compete, the power to perform, and of course, best team. And with that, I'll hand over to Dirk Elvermann.

Dirk Elvermann

executive
#5

Thank you, Markus, and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Let's now take a look at the key financial figures of BASF Group in the first half of 2026 compared with the prior year period. At EUR 4.8 billion, EBITDA before special items improved significantly by EUR 715 million compared with the prior year period, especially the Materials, Industrial Solutions, Chemicals and Surface Technologies segments contributed to this increase. Cash fixed costs of BASF Group declined by around 4% to EUR 7.9 billion. This was the result of the ongoing restructuring efforts, particularly in our core businesses and favorable currency effects. Net income improved by EUR 4.2 billion and came in at EUR 5.1 billion. This includes the disposal gain of EUR 3.5 billion after tax from the coatings transaction with Carlyle. Free cash flow decreased and came in at minus EUR 1.6 billion. Lower payments made for property, plant and equipment and intangible assets partly offset the decline in cash flows from operating activities. Let's turn now to the cash flow development in the second quarter of 2026. Cash flows from operating activities declined to EUR 524 million, mainly due to higher cash tied up in the net working capital. This resulted primarily from 2 effects. First, higher sales led to higher trade accounts receivable. And second, capital tied up in inventories increased as a result of higher raw material prices. In addition, cash flows from operating activities burdened by spending of around EUR 200 million related to the transformation of BASF Group. In particular, this was for cash effective restructuring measures and the introduction of the new ERP systems needed in Agricultural Solutions and the core businesses. Payments made for property, plant and equipment and intangible assets decreased to EUR 713 million. Free cash flow thus came in at minus EUR 189 million compared with plus EUR 533 million in the second quarter of 2025. We still expect to achieve our full year free cash flow forecast. In the second half of the year, our operating divisions are expected to collect even higher receivables than last year. The level of inventory reduction will largely depend on price levels. Payments made for property, plant and equipment and intangible assets are likely to come in below the EUR 3.4 billion forecasted for the full year. Now we come to our capital allocation framework. On the left side, you can see the cash contributions, which Markus Kamieth has already largely covered. I will now focus on the use of cash on the right-hand side. We are committed to attractive shareholder distributions and paid a dividend of EUR 2.25 per share for the business year 2025 at the beginning of May. We're also making swift progress with the second pillar of shareholder distributions, so share buybacks. I will provide more information on the next slide. As previously communicated, we used a significant share of the cash proceeds from portfolio measures to strengthen our balance sheet through deleveraging. We will continue to do so in order to support our single A credit rating. Compared with the prior year planning period, we will reduce capital expenditures by 20% in the full year planning period until 2028. We expect CapEx to consistently stay below depreciation until 2028. At the same time, we will also consider value-accretive M&A as a potential lever to strengthen and grow BASF's core businesses. In the current market environment, the relative attractiveness of acquisitions versus organic growth has increased. Ladies and gentlemen, we have just announced a EUR 1 billion share buyback program that will be executed between August 2026 and April 2027. This is part of the total buyback volume of at least EUR 4 billion by the end of 2028 that was announced in September 2024. This is the second part. Between November 2025 and June 2026, we already bought back around 3.5% of the outstanding shares for around EUR 1.5 billion. Given our strong cost position, we are now continuing this successful program with the next tranche. Furthermore, we are accelerating our deleveraging. This is supported by the maturity profile of outstanding bonds and loans as well as the opportunity to repay liabilities earlier than planned at attractive conditions. In the first half of 2026, we repaid a bond with a nominal value of EUR 1 billion as well as a loan of EUR 250 million. In the second half of 2026, we will repay maturing bonds and loans with a total value of EUR 900 million. In addition, we will redeem bonds and loans with a combined nominal value of around EUR 1.6 billion in 2026, ahead of the maturities, which extend through 2029. This includes bonds with a nominal value of EUR 1.25 billion that will already be redeemed in August. Let's now briefly touch on our balance sheet at the end of the second quarter compared with the end of June 2025. At around EUR 84 billion, total assets increased by 8%, mainly on account of higher current assets. The main reason is the considerable increase in cash due to the closing of the coating transaction and the related purchase price payment by Carlyle. BASF's equity ratio improved by 1.5 percentage points to 44.6% and remained very solid despite our ongoing share buyback program. Net debt declined by EUR 4.2 billion to EUR 17 billion. We continue to have a single A credit rating, which ensures unrestricted access to financial markets and favorable financial conditions. And with that, back to you, Markus.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#6

Thank you, Dirk. In light of the better-than-expected business development, as you saw, we increased our earnings forecast for the full year 2026. We now anticipate EBITDA before special items of between EUR 6.9 billion and EUR 7.7 billion in 2026. We kept the range between the lower and upper end of our forecast unchanged at EUR 800 million due to continuing geopolitical uncertainties. For free cash flow, we continue to expect between EUR 1.5 billion and EUR 2.3 billion in 2026. We anticipate higher earnings and lower capital expenditures to offset the higher working capital buildup. . The forecast for CO2 emissions also remains unchanged. BASF's outlook is based on the adjusted assumptions regarding the global economic environment shown on the chart. And now Dirk and I, we'll be glad to answer your questions. Thank you for your attention.

Unknown Executive

executive
#7

Thank you, Markus. Thank you, Dirk. Now we have time for your questions. You can click on the hand icon to get the floor, and then we will give you the floor. You're all on mute. So please remember to unmute yourselves. And of course, we'll be very glad to see you as well, so maybe you can activate your camera. We start with questions in German, and then switch over to the English channel. So please ask the question in the language of your respective channels so that the interpretation works in both directions, and you will receive the answer in the question of the channel. I think Mr. Buran of the Manager Magazine is going to start.

Unknown Attendee

attendee
#8

Good morning to all of you. Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions. Now regarding acquisitions, Dirk Elvermann said, potential acquisitions are more attractive right now. What is the direction BASF has in mind here?

Markus Kamieth

executive
#9

Well, if that's your only question, let me start.

Unknown Attendee

attendee
#10

Yes, I wanted to give everybody else to the opportunity to ask questions.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#11

Acquisitions, we announced that, well, in the current environment in the chemical industry, we see more and more of a momentum regarding transactions, mergers, acquisitions, divestitures. So a lot of things going on in the market. On the other hand, since 2024, when we started the strategy, we said that, of course, we are basically or mainly interested in strengthening our core businesses. Restructuring and consolidation in the chemical industry is an opportunity for us. Given the current environment where markets are getting tighter and the outlook regarding margins, especially in commodities, becomes more difficult, I would put it this way, the relative attractiveness of acquisitions compared to investments, especially major investments, is shifting at the moment. And this is why we are looking around in the current environment to find out what are the opportunities of strengthening our core businesses. I don't want to be more specific, but you can derive from our strategy, it doesn't make any sense to acquire a stand-alone business. Of course, we would to try strengthen our core portfolio chemicals and to make sure that to become the preferred chemical company for the green transformation of customers to abide by this.

Unknown Attendee

attendee
#12

Now let me ask further. In Europe or anywhere else?

Markus Kamieth

executive
#13

Well, we are operating globally with our portfolio. We want to operate long value chains and if possible, have assets in the regions where we are active. And active companies, of course, would be a good match, but I don't want to continue with speculation. It's not our main task to look for acquisitions. But we are observing the market, and we think the current momentum is quite exciting. So we are looking at a few things here, but that's as specific as it gets.

Unknown Executive

executive
#14

Ms. Martin, Bloomberg is next.

Marilen Martin

attendee
#15

Good morning. Two brief questions. Zhanjiang first. You said it's starting now. Can you be more concrete? What about the current capacity utilization? And what do you expect for Q3 and Q4? And you said in the analyst call that you expect disruptions in Europe even though you are well prepared. Maybe you can talk about your expectations regarding European supply chains maybe more details on effects that you expect for BASF even though you have more ships that are operating and so on.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#16

Okay. Zhanjiang. Thank you for your questions, Ms. Martin. Capacity utilization in Zhanjiang is as expected. And as we announced last year, very high. And this is a development we've seen very quickly. So the hypothesis, we are building something that is competitive, and that makes it possible in the commodity markets to have high capacity utilization at a high speed. While this turned out to be true. We have a very good capacity utilization. I don't have the exact figures, but many of the core product lines in Petrochemicals is close to 90% or higher regarding capacity utilization. Some assets are operating at a lower capacity utilization at the moment, either because we are still in the middle of customer qualification processes. We are also producing for our Care Chemicals division, where the product go into consumer products like detergents or skin care products, and you have to go through customer qualification processes, which sometimes take a few months. So capacity utilization is increasing a little more slowly. It's different from commodities where you switch on and are present in the market. And some assets for technical reasons are not operated at full capacity utilization. But technically speaking, we can operate the site at a very high capacity utilization, and this will stay the same -- and this will remain the same for the years to come. There won't be any significant changes in the future and ramping up of the Care Chemicals portfolio, I already mentioned it. .

Dirk Elvermann

executive
#17

Okay. The Rhine River, of course, the low water levels are concerning us and site management teams and supply chain are looking into this. This means that we are taking a lot of measures to make sure that we do not see any negative economic effects. And as Markus said, we are much better prepared than in 2018. And for the incoming products and for the outgoing product, we are alternatives at the moment, not only the so-called low-water barges. These are barges that can operate at low water levels, but we are also looking at alternative ways of transportation; trucks, trains, and so on. And we think that we can manage quite well. I don't see any looming economic damage. Of course, logistics costs will increase in such a situation. But I think everything is under control, and we have to wait and see when we will have higher water levels.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#18

And my comment on the analyst call, I don't know if you listened, I didn't want to say that this is no problem. It's a challenging situation. But I was in the Board of Executive Directors in 2018 and the difficulties were very grave and that led to economic downturns in our company. In the comparison with 2018, I didn't want to compare, I just wanted to say how very much better we are prepared and how further developed we are and how our teams deal with it. So my comfort level, how the organization is very hands-on in tackling the situation and finding alternatives. It shows and when the pressure is high in BASF, there are people that do really smart things and make things possible. That's our observation now.

Unknown Executive

executive
#19

Okay. Then let's go on. Mr. Freytag, I think, is next of FAZ.

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#20

Good morning. Yes, I have a few questions on the job reductions. It was said 7,000 and many -- how many of them are for Ludwigshafen? And the job cuts, will it continue at this speed? And I also would be interested how the situation is at Ludwigshafen. Is Ludwigshafen profitable? Or is it not yet? And how many plants have been closed? And the third question, Mr. [indiscernible]. I would like you to tell me that the job reduction program costs EUR 1.9 billion, and we talk to somebody who is aged at the end of his 50s, and he can retire. And until the end until his retirement, he gets 70% of his salary paid by BASF. And I would like to ask you, how does that contribute to the sentiment in the chemical industry? And industry going to Berlin and asking for help and easier transformation part less CO2 emissions. But at the same time, you you can have enough money to pay a lot for people who go into retirement.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#21

Well, let me start with the first part. The 7,000 jobs you're talking about, they were shown in an adjusted fashion because with a number of people that work at BASF, we have different effects of portfolio building, Zhanjiang and others. So since the beginning of 2024, it's these 7,000 positions that we have already eliminated. And of those, if I remember correctly, 2/3 have occurred in Germany. And the exact figure for Ludwigshafen, I don't have. But there's always well, a ballpark because for us in Germany, Germany is always the biggest country, and it's not only Ludwigshafen but 2/3 occurred in Germany. So the momentum that we see now, and we showed it on the chart, is that there is a growing momentum '24, '25, '26 and that will still continue because the programs and the employee programs have fully started restructuring programs on ongoing jobs are actually reduced. So we have a run rate for the first semester 2026 of approximately 300 to 350 positions per month that are being reduced, and that will go on like that for a while. There is no target figure. So frequently, we have been discussing what is the target figure. We don't have it because we say, okay, we have measures. We do it by what we want to change positively and what will contribute to the value of BASF. And job reduction is the consequence of what we want to achieve. It's not the target as such, but we will see the same momentum for a while. The employee programs like severance programs, for example, they -- well, we are not the only ones that do that. Of course, we look at our peers. We try to compare. We do not publish anything here. But we do look around and benchmark. And there are legal rules in Germany that we have. There is a legal environment. So in Germany, too, it is quite expensive for companies to do restructuring. That's also under discussion. We can't get out of this situation. And we have a site agreement, which is negotiated and which we have and we built upon. And so redundancies for operational reasons are excluded here. So you have to talk to your employees when you are affected. So we have to pay the severance payments, for example. And you, Dirk, would you like to add?

Dirk Elvermann

executive
#22

The severance payments are high, it's a fact that the industry in part or the part of the restructuring is carried by and paid by the companies, and part of that is high severance payments. It's the severance payments and the one-off costs that are lower than the savings you can achieve on an annual basis. So that's the calculation behind it. So it is really worthwhile for a company when you can reduce a position and when you don't have this position any longer. But let me make this point once more. For Germany, it is a challenge when it comes to the competitiveness with other countries because in Germany and in other European countries, it is extremely expensive, and that's maybe a different field. But if you look at growth fields, the risk for companies to invest in Germany is and to make a mistake, the risk is very high, and this is also due to our rigid legislation that we have. In part, of course, it is justified and it was good for Germany, but it should be rethought by politics. We need a good approach here. That would be a good idea.

Unknown Executive

executive
#23

Okay. So then let's continue. [indiscernible] from SWR. He is next.

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#24

Well, hello, yes. Maybe that one question of Mr. [indiscernible] is also interesting for me. It wasn't answered about profitability of the Ludwigshafen site. Maybe you can say something about that. And I was also very pleased that we have a ballpark figure when it comes to the employee figures. But I get the impression that FTEs cannot be compared with the figures that were published once a year so far? Compared to the employee figures, so because that also includes halftime or share [indiscernible] figure. May be you can also talk about the sales, divested figure, what was your desired target and maybe couldn't couldn't have clarified before that with the selling that wouldn't have been so attractive at this point in time.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#25

Sorry, Mr. [indiscernible]. Obviously, I didn't answer your question on profitability. That was not on purpose. Okay. Let's talk about that. The profitability of Ludwigshafen is not high enough yet to carry the profitability of BASF SE in the group. But the productivity is making great headway. So with our restructuring measures, but also efficiency measures, we make good progress. And therefore, Ludwigshafen is closer to the point of making a positive contribution. So we are on the right path. But today, as of today, we cannot yet say that Ludwigshafen is profitable again. I would like to talk about the second aspect of Mr. Reitz. Okay. Let me start maybe with the basic idea of selling the flats of BASF was that where real estate management is not part of the total figure, so it makes sense to look at it. So we have an auction process as we usually do, and it's a normal divestiture process, which has one specialty. Of course, we have social interest here. And this is why we added a social culture. And we said we will only sell to somebody who offers a price that we envisage and also takes over the social responsibility. And in the course of this process, which actually went well, we realized that in the environment in which we are moving, so the capital market environment, interest rate development and so forth, our price expectation is not met. And so we said, okay, it's not the right point in time to do this now. And we suspended the process, which doesn't mean that we will go away from the idea of selling it, but it doesn't mean either that we will restart next week. So this is a full stop for the time being, and we will observe the market development. The tenants in our flats will know or know that their rights are safe. And Mr. Heitz, back to the point that I hear frequently, couldn't it have been avoided communicating first and then it doesn't work out and you don't sell and there's a lot of uncertainty. That's true. But the alternative would have been -- we would have done it behind the curtain secretly and somebody finds out, and that would have been a loss of trust. because then people say, well, BASF never tells us about their plans. And that holds true for many parts of the transformation happening at BASF just now. You do observe it very closely. We have a lot in terms of transformation. We, as Board of Executive Directors decided that the way to be honest with the people to tell them which ideas we have, even if we don't know yet 100% whether this will work out and how will we do it exactly and which individual people will be affected maybe in 2 or 3 years. But we try to be open and transparent in our communication in terms of what we plan and maybe also then risk the situation that we have now. We announced it. Many people were thrown into uncertainty, and we took it very seriously, and we now have to realize that this to be added value won't work out. And so we had to stop it. The alternative to do it behind the curtain is always worse because in times of strong transformation, trust is an important point, too. And my experience is with unpopular decisions, which are communicated openly and honestly, well, that's something people can handle better than them feeling that we didn't tell them everything. It's a point of view. But as long as we will be part of the Board of Executive Directors, this will be our guideline and our direction open and transparent. Okay. Why did we decide to show the FTEs rather than the headcount, but this was a conscious decision, right? Yes, a conscious decision because we also looked at the historic comparability. Normally, I know outward, we communicate the headcount. But internally, when we look at the correlation with HR expenses, we always mention the FTEs, full-time equivalents. This is how we control the employees, and this is what we do internally. And we said we want to show comparable figures. When were we at the state we are in at the moment, we had to translate it into FTEs. I mean it's not 100% precise, but we said FTEs below 30,000. The number of headcount would be slightly above 30,000, but it's not a major difference. It's not 10% or more percent, no. But sorry for the confusion, slight confusion, but we wanted to show you clean figures in order not to compare apples and oranges. And looking at a period of 70 years, we have to be careful.

Unknown Executive

executive
#26

Okay. Let's continue. Ms. Weiss of Thomson Reuters, please.

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#27

Let me ask again regarding the earnings situation in Ludwigshafen. Did I understand you correctly? Losses can be driven down this year, but you will not be back in the profit area. When will this happen? In the analyst call, you said 12% of assets in Ludwigshafen are not competitive at the moment, and you're looking into closing assets. Can you tell us what assets you're looking at and how many jobs are affected? And my last question, can you tell us on the basis of core shift, a shared service center will be relocated to India, how many jobs will be affected in Germany?

Markus Kamieth

executive
#28

Okay. Last question, we cannot tell you because at the moment, we are developing the measures regarding core shift. So the development of a new operating model for our core businesses, this number doesn't exist because that's not the basis for our planning. But we are developing the measures. We are coming up with implementation plans and then organizational changes, adjustment figures will be the result. the analysis, the preparation of the implementation is ongoing at the moment, and we will definitely not publish figures externally prior to communicating everything to our employees, and we will do our best to do so in the months to come. So we cannot just come up with figures now. The second question, let me try again, profitability in Ludwigshafen. It's rather complicated, and we don't want to evade the question by all means. But of course, it's interesting to understand how profitable is the Ludwigshafen site. Let me make some basic announcements. We are not controlling the profitability of individual sites, but the profitability of businesses. But of course, we need a Ludwigshafen site, which, as such, is a profitability-generating site because it's our biggest site. If the Ludwigshafen site is not financially healthy, things will become difficult. So we have to look at what is the Ludwigshafen site. Basically, it's a production site, which at a good capacity utilization is supposed to generate profitable business. And then -- the next thing is to regard Ludwigshafen as the corporate center as the core of research and so on. So the question, is Ludwigshafen profitable? It is not an easy question to answer. But what remains is what Dirk Elvermann just mentioned. Ludwigshafen, looking at all the different levels we are looking at, had an enormous profitability problem in recent years. This is due to the productivity that went down and the lack of capacity utilization. We worked on both levers. We tried to explain this today. We are reducing costs in Ludwigshafen to a bigger extent than I can remember we've ever done since I've been with BASF, which is quite some time. And we are also improving the competitiveness of our assets. Plus in Europe, we have a more positive business environment than expected, which means that the profitability contributions from Ludwigshafen are showing a positive development at the moment. How sustainable this is going to be? Well, we have to wait and see regarding the market environment. But we are developing the Ludwigshafen site in the right direction. And all the people in Ludwigshafen, I mean, of course, all the changes in Ludwigshafen are painful, but all of them make a contribution to make Ludwigshafen stronger and to streamline it. So we are optimistic. We are confident that we are on the right track, but there is no theoretical line that we have to pass here. Next, you mentioned something else. The assets, the assets, right? Please bear with me that -- well, of course, we are quite courageous when it comes to the guidance where we are competitive and where we are not competitive with production lines. But we cannot give you individual plants for competitive reasons. I mean, we don't want to tell our competitors which plants we think are probably not competitive. And on the other hand, these are topics we are not discussing with our workforce to the full extent because sometimes it's calculations. Competitive does not mean profitable or not profitable. It's an assessment of the cost situation of a specific plant compared to the competitors. So one is a strategic assessment and the next is discussing the real world, and we cannot provide this transparency.

Unknown Executive

executive
#29

Right. We can continue. Ms. [indiscernible] will be the next.

Unknown Attendee

attendee
#30

Question on the company flats. You did not stop the plan of selling them. You just postponed it. You're waiting for a better market environment and would try again, if I understood you correctly. It sounds as if the social carter was the crux of the matter that this was the reason why you did not get the price you had in mind. And another question. Can you tell us what the Strait of Hormuz effect is when it comes to the capacity utilization in Ludwigshafen and China and how sustainable this effect is?

Markus Kamieth

executive
#31

Okay. The company, flats. I think you misinterpreted in a way. We did not communicate that it was the social [indiscernible] or the expectations of the buyers was the main thing here. We had several interested parties for the package. And of course, we assessed what kind of value this package of flats has for BASF. I mean, to be quite blunt, we don't do it because we need money because we think that somebody else would rate these flats much higher because it is core business for them and not for us. So you have to try to find somebody who gives it a higher rating than you yourselves in the environment, the market environment, there is a market for BASF for real estate. And of course, we tried to get some quotes and they didn't satisfy us. And we said it's better to keep the objects because then the value is higher. This is not the process that is just starting and going on. No, no. It's a rather complicated process, and you will not try again 2 weeks from now. It's not a value-increasing solution for us. This is a decision as such, and we take it seriously. But the fact as such, owning real estate is not the core of BASF. This remains unchanged. And if in future, I cannot give you a date. But if in future, we again say maybe now we see a market environment that makes it possible for BASF to increase value by selling, we will tackle it again. But for now, it's done. So this was the first attempt. It didn't work. And from our point of view, we tried what we needed to do. And I think now everything is fine, and we will stick to this. Strait of Hormuz, Well, Strait of Hormuz. I can tell you that BASF so far has gone very well through this bottleneck. We actively communicated. We started very early in time to well, network our logistics, network with everybody. And until this very day, we haven't had any nonavailable product. So everybody has access to all the products that we need to this very day. And that it also had a positive effect, isn't it? Well, this is now coming, yes. And we were in the good situation to get more pricing power, particularly in Europe. Why did this happen? Well, it is not as if the entire goods import from Asia and China broke down, but it's a fact that the transport cost reduced or increased by 30% compared to the situation before the crisis, and that can be felt by the importers, particularly from Asia. And that lifted the price levels. On top of that came the feeling of our customers, maybe it is not such a bad idea to have a customer next door and to buy maybe from a European supplier, chemical supplier. So pricing power, but also the reliability that we offer that helped us. So the crisis is not over. And for the third quarter, we still see an expansion of this pattern. Maybe it normalized a little bit. It is not just as an excited discussion as it was in April or May, but we still see that compared to the competitors, we went through quite smoothly.

Dirk Elvermann

executive
#32

Yes, I agree. Particularly in the chemical industry in North America, but also in Europe, we had a good economic development in the second quarter, a little better due to this disruption. Well, probably we'll have a number of companies that show a good second quarter. But within this field of companies, it shows our advantages, the size, economies of scale and to have different supply chains that we can rely on. So in this unforeseeable scenario, we well made up some headway compared to the competitors, and that makes us very confident that we, in difficult situations can fare well.

Unknown Executive

executive
#33

I see Mrs. [indiscernible] with another question. It is the last from the German language channel, and then we have 2 English-speaking ones. Okay. But Ms. [indiscernible] first.

Unknown Attendee

attendee
#34

Well, yes, I didn't calculate it. But if I may, yes, let me learn more on building a new operating model that you showed on the core shift chart. Obviously, there's more behind it than getting more efficient and lowering costs. So you are telling us about harmonization, AI and everything. So BASF and the way it works, you want to put this on a different platform. Can you maybe elaborate on that?

Markus Kamieth

executive
#35

Yes. I mean let me make it as a big headline, so to speak. Our core business as such is a very large part of BASF. It's EUR 40 billion, and it is -- we are talking the diversity of petrochemicals to cosmetic products for the end consumer. So this is the range. It's a very complex portfolio. And the big journey that we have started with Core shift is as follows. Over the last years, we have put ourselves in a very good starting position because the very complex and very heterogeneous stand-alone businesses were now hived off from the core. So they have stand-alone businesses. And in the sense of coatings, it was -- or the majority of it was already divested. So the core business now has a more compact and even structure. despite all the complexity, we're still talking about the chemical business of BASF. And if you look at what opportunities we now have to go beyond this core business and to still go on harmonizing and standardizing. -- you see that it is now much easier because in the past, we had to harmonize the entire portfolio, including AP, coating, ECMS that always had very special requirements. And for all functional areas, there are options to reduce variations to reduce diversity that was not wanted. It just grew. It became more diverse. And now against the background of core shift, we sat down with many employees from the different departments. And we said, okay, if we could, how would we organize the processes end-to-end, starting with HR or IT and also how we operate at the different sites. And there are great ideas coming up. because they tell us, well, dear Board, if you let us and if maybe we can just leave out some of the holy grails that existed in the past, we could organize ourselves differently. And my confidence actually grew by saying, okay, this target to have 20% less cost and operate this new structure, that seems achievable. So that will help us a lot. It will change maybe a number of things that we do at BASF, but we're very confident that until 2029, we can reach this target. So this is the right way how to operate this core. We still make chemistry. We will have large Verbund sites. We will have value-adding chains, but many, many things in 2 or 3 years' time will be done differently and more efficiently. So this is the big journey -- overall journey with core shift. And you hear it in my language. Well, I'm very optimistic. I have respect when it comes to this task, but I feel courageous and I feel confident that we can really be successful and make BASF a good new unit. Okay.

Unknown Executive

executive
#36

That was worthwhile. [indiscernible] Please go ahead.

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#37

I've got a couple of questions. You've probably given your strongest commentary on M&A for a while. I wanted to ask what makes you think BASF is well suited to this situation of restructuring -- of picking up assets through this restructuring and consolidation of commodity assets? I mean, you're more socially responsible than [indiscernible] or someone like that. So I'm just wondering, yes, why you think that -- why you think you're sort of best placed for the sort of heavy lifting with job cuts to make those challenged assets work? The second is [indiscernible] made an interesting comment, a short comment, but an interesting one yesterday. They exited the JV with Sinochem in Zhanjiang. Yes, they wanted to preserve cash, but they also said that they would like to take a more cautious approach strategically to China. So my question is, are you taking a more strategically cautious approach to China in the timing of your extension phase of Zhanjiang?

Markus Kamieth

executive
#38

Yes. Thanks, Andrew. First of all, to your first question, I'm struggling a little bit with the references you're taking. If you understood our comments that we are looking for distressed assets and assets that are, let's say, of marginal value, and we try to do a heavy-hand restructuring as the only value creation lever, you've misunderstood our M&A comments and sorry for that. I think what we are -- what we have always said since 2024 in our winning Way strategy that our idea is to strengthen and grow the core. And I think this idea that we need a portfolio that's strong, market-leading, innovative and allows us to play BASF strength to help at the end of the day, all our customer industries to go through their transformation. That's the leading thought in our view around portfolio development. All we are saying is that right now, in this time of market dynamics, in relative terms, M&A has become maybe more relative attractive to large-scale investments. And that's why I think both allyways remain open for us. I think we would not see a strong value in buying assets that other companies would like dispose of because they are unhappy with the profitability or the cash generation. That probably is not our filter. -- but to look for synergistic and value-accretive acquisitions is, I think, the role of every Board. And as I said many times, I think the current dynamic in the chemical industry, including also pressure on consolidation and portfolio changes is an opportunity for BASF. But we are not driven and we are not forced to do anything. We just are an interested, let's say, participant in observing the market right now. So no -- the examples you mentioned, this is not the playing field that we are looking at. China, very simple. I mean, we have also in our strategy announced that China continues to be a target market for us. Our ambition is to grow with the chemical market in China. In the past, we've grown significantly higher than the chemical market in China. So we have gained market share. Given the competitive dynamics and the maturity also of both the chemical industry and also our customer industries in China, I think for us, it would be overambitious to say we want to outgrow the chemical market now forever. I think growing with the chemical market in China is what we're aiming at. We made a significant step with the Zhanjiang investment, but we will continue to invest in China in attractive businesses to grow with our customer industries there. So we stay committed to the Chinese market. We have a lot of strength there. We have -- we are approaching north teens or 18% to 20% of our share of business in China. We feel good about this, and we feel good about further ideas, but don't expect now a second Zhanjiang or a third Zhanjiang to happen in the next years. That's probably not going to happen. But we continue to invest in China. We like China. We like the market opportunities, and we like the innovation speed in China as well.

Unknown Executive

executive
#39

All right. So I think we'll come to the final question from [indiscernible].

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#40

So I've got 2 questions related to the Middle East and one about the Rhine. First of all, on the Middle East, the closure of the straight has obviously cut off global supplies of crude oil and refined products and petrochemical feedstocks like naphtha, which has affected Asia really badly so far, but not so much Europe. But this time around, the strain closed again and global inventories running really low. I'm just wondering how concerned you are that there could be potential shortages of petrochemical feedstocks not just in Asia, but potentially in Europe? That's the first question. Secondly, on the Middle East, you got -- clearly got a really big boost from the market conditions that we saw in kind of March, April time after the war began. There was a bit of panic in the market, sentiment was really -- everyone was very concerned. I just wonder how are your customers behaving this time, [indiscernible], now that the states closed again completely? How are their inventories looking? How is demand looking? How is customer sentiment at the moment? You -- one of you talked about in Q3, an expansion of the pattern of earlier in the year. Just wondering what you meant by that. And then just finally, on the Rhine, if you can say anything more about the impact of the Rhine. Is this the worst it's ever been, the lowest it's ever been -- and you talked about no economic impact, but has there been any production impact on you? And do you -- how worried are you that you might have to issue a force majeure or that your suppliers might have to -- or there could be really serious logistical problems in Europe for chemical producers? That's it for me.

Markus Kamieth

executive
#41

Are 2 very complicated questions. But let me come back to the Rhine situation. Will there be -- I mean, first of all, I think what I have seen so far, when you look at the Rhine level, it is actually as low as it has been right now because of the extended drought here in Germany. But it's, of course, not the level that is so decisive. It's also the length of how long will it stay so low, right? Because then you, of course, have secondary tertiary effects if the time period is so long. We don't know this year. So far, we can say we are in a much better situation than we have been in the past in similar situation, not the first time we have low Rhine water levels. We discussed this earlier. And I also think it would not be wise to now exclude that there will be force majeure announcements or, let's say, product shortages in individual cases, right? Because as you know, Ludwigshafen and also other chemical factories along the river Rhine, BASF is not the only one and on other rivers probably in Europe, and very complex Verbund structures and value chains and so forth. So sometimes it's only one raw material that's missing and then you have some ripple effect. So this all puts a lot of stress on the system. I have a lot of confidence that our teams are handling this fairly well. We already see some inflated logistics costs because we are bringing now things from the ship to rail or to trucks. So we are seeing this already, but nothing that makes now the CEO, the CFO of BASF nervous when it comes to quarterly results or full year forecast. We're not in that category. And that's why we said we didn't want to play it down. It's complicated, and it puts a lot of pressure on planning, on supply chain. And I don't want to rule out customer impacts and things where BASF will have to go out and say we have to curtail certain products. This could all happen in the next weeks. But from a financial impact, everything that we're seeing so far doesn't make us too nervous. And I think our teams have it very well under control and are mitigating these effects on a constant basis. Middle East, what's different this time? I tried to explain this also in the analyst call this morning. When the war broke out in end of February and the Strait of Hormuz closed shortly thereafter, of course, everybody was facing a completely new situation. We had to deal with theoretical hypothetical scenarios. And of course, in this case, a lot of people then react towards, I want to be on the safe side, no matter what, I don't want to run out of product. I will accept extraordinary conditions and pricing and so forth. So there was a lot of insecurity. The insecurity has not faded completely, but it has -- we have gotten used to this a little bit. And we have also seen that supply chains, global supply chains, energy refined products, but also finished products in the chemical industry have found ways to, let's say, deal with a different situation. And you can see it most prominently in China, the biggest chemical market, where already margins and supply-demand has already more or less in a lot of categories relaxed to where it was before the war. So the system has, so to say, rearranged. And now these shocks like a couple of days ago, this increased oil shock again meets a much more prepared industry and a more resilient industry, so to say. That's why I expect these extreme reactions not to happen. But especially if we see elevated cost, limited supply over a longer period of time, it will lead to exactly what you said. The more upstream you go, the lower the inventories are. And that's why a few weeks ago, I also commented publicly in the media that if we continue to see a drain on crude oil inventories, eventually, we might see a bounce back of crude oil inventories -- crude oil prices again. And I think we're seeing the first shades of this. So I think it's a tense situation, but the chemical industry has dealt fairly well with it. We helped our customer industries to stay supplied. And I continue to see this also as a base case for the next at least 2 quarters.

Unknown Executive

executive
#42

Okay. I think no more questions for the time being. Everything was answered. That was it from our side. Thank you very much for taking part. Thank you for your interest in BASF. And of course, we appreciate this. If you need further information, our colleagues of our press department will be available. And if you like, we also have pictures from the press conference that can be made available. The Q3 figures will be presented on 28th of October in form of a video conference, and we'd appreciate to see you again. So thank you, and have a great day. See you at the next event. Thank you.

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