Betmakers Technology Group Ltd (BET) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. I think let's kick things off. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for making the time to join us today for the BetMakers half year FY '24 results presentation webinar. My name is Eric Kuret from Automic Group, delighted to be moderating this session. We have Matt Davey, Exec Chair; Jake Henson, our CEO; and Anthony Pullin, CFO on the line today. Just some quick housekeeping before we kick things off, we will be taking questions at the end of the presentation. [Operator Instructions] With that in mind, I will now hand over to Matt Davey to kick things off.

Thanks, Eric. So BetMakers has evolved over the last 4 or 5 years through both organic growth and as well as acquisitions. We now present as a truly scaled and globally diversified international B2B supplier of wagering technology for both racing and sports wagering domestically here in the U.S. as well as internationally. The company is focused on improving the operations and efficiencies of our customers, and we do so right throughout the Australian market and the U.S., Europe and Australasia. Let's step to the next slide. So it gives me pleasure to bring the first 6 months' performance to you today. We've had a very productive first half. We came in with top line revenue at around $51.4 million, [ effectively ] a 10% growth from the comparable period last year. We delivered $33.1 million in gross profit, and I'm proud to say an adjusted EBITDA of just under minus $1 million for the 6 months. We landed with restricted -- unrestricted cash of around $18.1 million, and we will talk around the cash balance and cash flow further in the presentation. This result was achieved really through a focus on restructuring our cost base, but a direct focus on the technology platform that enables us to deliver these services. So we have not just looked to cut costs anywhere we can. We are focused on making this business more efficient to deliver better value and better products more efficiently to our customer base. So that includes a 25% reduction in operating costs for the first half of the year, and we anticipate additional cost savings through the rest of the year as management continues to execute on its efficiency program. In addition to doing this, though, I'm very proud to say that we have extended contracts with key partners, including PENN Entertainment, PointsBet Australia, Dabble, 888, the Argentinian Jockey Club, Meadowlands in New Jersey and others. This is particularly impressive given the fact that the team are focused on tightening our belt around both the Australian operations as well as international operations, and I think you'll continue to see ongoing success commercially. And in fact, we believe the pipeline is back-end loaded for the second half of the year as we start to launch customers. We've touched a little on the technology enhancements. Jake will walk you through further around what we've done within the business, but this technology investment has enabled us to deploy products for Caesars Entertainment around our tote solutions. In addition, our OneWatch system rolled out against our tote has now enabled us to more efficiently manage and monitor our systems that are deployed live in the field. Finally, we also announced launching AdVantage Platform with PA Betting Services. This is a significant operator in the European markets. This would not have been possible without the previous investment in our technology today. So a great result, very happy with where we've landed. Particularly important though is delivering on what we said we'd do. We want to build confidence in the marketplace that when we make a statement, we deliver against that, so we are hyper-focused on that. So let's just step through the kind of 4 key cornerstones that we put forward to the market. The first, we said we'd focus on reducing and managing our cost base to under $110 million for the full year FY '24. As you can see, costs have come in quite nicely under that for the first 6 months and well on track. We'll step through further on the P&L later in the deck around exactly where those costs show up and how they compare versus last year. We also said we'd focus on low double-digit revenue growth. We came in at just under 10% I think we can do better. And as I said, we are back-end loaded with new clients going live in the second half of this year, and we feel very comfortable and confident about that. We've said we'd maintain at least $20 million in cash reserves and balance sheet. We dipped slightly below that. There is $5 million in bad debt at this point, which we are actively working to recover. We feel comfortable with our position there and anticipate getting back to that committed level. And then finally, we focused on generating positive cash flow from operations and a positive EBITDA number. And as you can see, the EBITDA line is greatly improved. Our cash flow is greatly improved. There's more work to be done there, but we are comfortable we are well on track to deliver that against a tightly controlled cost base, disciplined capital allocation and a focus on driving top line revenue growth. In terms of key technology developments. This is a part that's difficult to see outside looking in. So we're happy to highlight a couple of them here. Jake will talk further in the presentation around what we've done. But I just want to highlight a few of them. So continued development on our Next Gen platform. This platform, we will slowly migrate our existing customer base over to. This is also allowing us to deliver our services much more efficiently both in the Australian market but also internationally. The launch of the OneWatch solution has allowed us to deliver our BetLine terms and manage and monitor those with a much lower operating cost, and we will continue to leverage that position. And then investment in infrastructure. As a scaled business now delivering to a large number of customers around the world, it's very important that we have the infrastructure to enable us to leverage that. We have that in place today, and I feel very comfortable we'll continue to show margin expansion as we leverage against that. So stepping through the financial results for the first half of the year. Revenue came in at $51.36 million. That was a 9.9% improvement on the comparable period last year. Gross profit came in at $33 million, and that was a similar increase in top line. The important point here is the operating costs, down nearly 25% from the comparable period and allowing us to deliver an adjusted EBITDA number of just under minus $1 million compared to minus $15 million for the same period last year. So we're now starting to show the disciplined operating cost base with the top line growing, starting to deliver real improvement in the EBITDA line. We anticipate to continue to deliver against that over the next 6 months and 12 months, 24 months as we continue to grow out the business. Stepping into the revenue line, the next page, Anthony. We have simplified the business into 2 divisions: Global Betting Services and Global Tote. We believe this is a much easy way for investors to understand the business, but you can also see more effectively how those 2 divisions are growing. Both have demonstrated strong growth over the last 6 months. Global Betting Services up 5.6%. But in particular, Global Tote, this is an asset we acquired. We have restructured the cost base and also been able to deliver against top line revenue growth. Very proud of the team for this, having delivered a 15% top line growth. We feel very confident with our position there in the U.S. but also the international sales program around that. So on a combined basis, we have delivered just under 10% top line revenue growth. We will continue to report against this. We think this is a much more effective way to view the business. And you can see the results as we have delivered them now. Next page. In terms of normalizing the cost base, this was absolutely a key focus for the first 12 months since coming on board. We have made significant progress against that cost base. You can see in FY '23, we delivered a cost base of around $127 million. We have projected for the FY '24 period to come in at around $100.3 million, plus $5.8 million in capitalized development costs. We are highlighting where those costs are being capitalized. We're invested in other services just to give investors a better understanding as to what it actually costs to run this business versus what we are investing for future benefit. Either way you slice it, that is a much better looking cost base for a business of our size. We will continue to work on refining that, but we are very happy with the progress that has been made to date. Stepping through the balance sheet and cash flow. You can see that our cash outflow in the bottom right-hand corner has improved this year. There's still a lot more work to be done there. We look forward to actually growing cash flow that we anticipate getting to that position by the end of FY '24. Cash balance, we've talked through. We would be nicely over the $20 million in unrestricted cash if it wasn't for slow-paying customers. We are working on that with our team at the moment and feel very comfortable with where we are at this point. No debt, which is great, and certainly significant capital to be able to run this business effectively. Now let me hand over to Jake to walk you through the business strategy and outlook.

Thanks, Matt, and thank you to everyone that's connected into the webinar or watching the presentation on replay in the coming days. I'm very pleased with the progress the team has made throughout the half, whilst also acknowledging the patience shown from our shareholders as we continue to reshape the business. As a management and a wider leadership team, we're driven, excited and ready for what lies ahead, and I'm very confident we'll greatly benefit from all the hard work we've done to date. And we'll start with our global footprint. Throughout this half, the business has continued to grow our global customer base, our regulatory scope and our licenses as well as our software and product approvals into new markets. We staff in more than 10 countries, offices in 9 and customers in more than 30. That make us as a global business with scope, size and scale to grow into all of racing's addressable markets, regulated and regulating. As Matt touched on earlier, we have simplified and streamlined our operating model, which we think will also make the business easier to follow for our investors. Now the business can be viewed through the lens of 2 divisions: Global Betting Services, which is across our digital operators, spanning fixed odds, pricing, data, form, content, streaming, integrity and distribution. And our Global Tote business covering the core quantum tote engine, hosting, tote pooling, interface management, venue and racetrack services. And our central platforms enable the delivery of these products within the 2 divisions. We've worked tirelessly to integrate both the GBS and Global Tote products into our Next Gen platform development, our embedded racebook technology evidenced by the PA AdVantage Platform partnership, our betting terminals as well as our racetrack control functions. Whilst I'm very pleased with the progress made through the half, the job is certainly not done, and BetMakers as a business needs to continue to deliver on our progress for our shareholders. We'll continue to focus on execution. We've got a big pipeline of executed agreements, and our growth can be underpinned by getting these deals into the marketplace, deals such as the Press Association AdVantage Platform, our partnership with Caesars venues in Nevada and launching our 10-year tote contract in Norway. We'll continue to focus on unlocking efficiencies throughout the business using technology and innovation to solve problems and build a sustainable base to scale from. And finally, we'll deliver on the previous investment we've made into all the core parts of the value chain that form the part of the BetMakers product suite from deeper integrations with Punting Form and DynamicOdds assets through to our Next Gen platform development. The future state of our technology will be nimble, lean and ready to capitalize on global growth opportunities in a cost-efficient manner. BetMakers is also committed to best practice ESG. And we're pleased to announce that we're making great progress on all fronts here across environmental, social and governance metrics, thanks to our global ESG Committee. Firstly, environmental Scope 1 and 2 emissions have been reduced. On the social side, continue to make internal changes, improving our gender ratio, [indiscernible] employment engagement surveys as well as volunteer leave and volunteer hours at charitable organizations that resonate with our staff and the communities. And on the government side, responsible wagering, clients sits at the core of all of our product delivery. And throughout the last half, we've also increased our employee responsible gambling training and programs, and we'll continue to do so in the half to come. With that, I'll throw it back to Matt to round out the formal part of the presentation before we open up for some questions. Thank you.

Thanks, Jake. So your company, BetMakers, entered the calendar 2024 period with a really interesting collection of assets focused on the global wagering and gaming industry. This industry continues to grow. We are watching phenomenal growth in emerging markets such as Latin America and Africa, along with continued growth and migration to digital forms of consumption in the more mature markets such as the Australasian and European markets. Our business is very diversified, operating in over 30 countries. We have no key dependence on any single customer with no customer accounting for greater than 10% of our business, and we have over 60 of them. So we feel very comfortable we have a diversified set of assets. We are globally diversified in terms of where we operate and where we generate our income from, and we have a very diversified set of customers. We also have a strong balance sheet with 0 debt. We have a growing top line. The key here is to focus on pursuing positive cash flow. We have made that clear over the last 12 months. We'll continue to execute ruthlessly against that, and we anticipate delivering fairly good news around there. Along with that comes a sharpened focus. It's important to dial down the noise and focus on the core aspects of the business and not be distracted from what we need to deliver for our shareholders. I think the team have done a great job of doing that. And with our simplified operating model, driven around 2 business units, it's a lot clearer in terms of responsibility, objectives and outcomes that we're looking for. With that said, we are still continuing to focus on operational efficiencies. The reason here we are leveraging so much of our focus around technology is that as we continue to grow our top line, and I anticipate we will, we should be able to deliver real increase in EBITDA margin. The operating margin this company should deliver should really start shine through over the next 6 to 12 months, and I look forward to bringing that to the market as and when we release our next set of results. With that, let me hand back to Eric, and then open up for questions.

Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Jake. [Operator Instructions] There are a bunch of -- let me turn to my camera back on. A bunch of questions coming through. Let us sort through those. I want to just start with one high level one for you, Matt. I guess very high level, how do you rate the results that the BetMakers have achieved this half? And if you're looking back maybe 12 months and where you wanted to be today, are you happy with where BetMakers is at and the progress you've made?

It's a great question. I think the first half is a very robust set of numbers. I think business has never operate in a straight line. You're constantly dealing with challenges that were not predicted, were not expected. And we have a very sophisticated business that, as we stated, is operating in over 30 countries and with over 60 customers. So there's an inordinate number of things that jump up. I think the team have done very well to ignore the distractions and focus on what we can control. So I'm very comfortable with what we've delivered today. Would I like us to deliver more? Absolutely. I'm very comfortable working with management to achieve that. I'm patient. This business has done a lot in the last 12 months, and I anticipate we'll start to see the real benefits of that over the next 12 months.

Great. Thanks, Matt. So lots of question understandably coming through just around the debtor payments and the amounts that were sort of we provide for in the accounts. I know you're going to say sort of limited in what you can say, but I think it's -- we need to cover off a number of questions. So just any sort of flavor or color you can provide on where you're at with discussions with those 2 outstanding amounts in particular?

Yes. Look, obviously, we can't say too much on that, but I'll say just a couple of things. One, operating in these markets, typically a capital-intensive operations for our B2C clients. We understand the constraints there. And we absolutely take a very strong partnership-driven approach to working with our customers. So when you're in the B2B business and typically on revenue share, you are a real partner to those customers. We operate in that format, and we continue to have very active dialogue and feel comfortable we'll land in a position that we will be okay with to the next 3 months or so.

And just beyond those existing 2 clients, in particular, just thinking more broadly around your current client contracts, are you comfortable with those contracts and the future ability for clients to be able to meet those obligations?

Yes. Look, when you go through the business transformation that the company has gone through over the last 6 to 12 months, it's a great opportunity for us to relook at our contracts, the way we engage with our customers. We have a broader set of products and services to sell now, and we have perhaps a more sophisticated, well-defined commercial engagement model with those customers. So I feel very comfortable. We are heading in the right direction. We have the right commercial models in place. We can always improve upon those. And I think the team is doing so quite effectively over the last couple of months, and we will continue to do so going forward.

Thanks, Matt. A couple of questions about the Caesars tote solution, maybe one for you, Jake. Just the timing for when you will go live, if there's any feedback that you've received from the trial so far? And what you're thinking around revenue contribution sort of looking forward?

Yes. Thanks, Eric. So the solution is now live in 2 venues in Nevada, which is fantastic and a great milestone as part of that partnership and requires obviously a few layers of regulatory approval with one of the more stringent regulators in the global gaming markets. In terms of the rollout, we think it will be a fast follow for the rest of the venues within Nevada. Certainly, within this quarter is what we're expecting. In terms of the revenue opportunity there, we will assess it as an element of a fixed fee and then also a variable element based on handle. So how material is the Global Tote division, we'll assess that. And as soon as we've got visibility that it would breach a threshold, then we'll obviously advise the market at the next possible time. So we definitely think it will be a key pillar. And Caesars being a global wagering and gaming giant I think, really endorses the product, and we think it will lead to more business as well.

Thanks, Jake. A question has come through that SIS recently announced an agreement to offer fixed odds in Colorado. Is there an opportunity for that BetMakers to offer something like this in Colorado? And maybe it's an opportunity just to speak a little more broadly around the strategy in North America.

Yes, I'll take that, and Matt can chime in if he needs. So I think there was also a question regarding New Jersey and Monmouth that we will try and wrap up that. So yes, I think it's really exciting news. Exciting news for a number of reasons. Firstly, that there's another party out there that are partners of ours in many markets, and SIS actively working to unlock the fixed-odds racing opportunity in the U.S. And secondly, that an operator, Bet365, the largest operator in the world by many metrics, is happy to endorse that strategy inside that market, where they take some other products from SIS as well. So a small stepping stone. And certainly, we've got a long way to go to unlock all moving parts within the market, but I think it's an endorsement on two fronts, which is really exciting. How that ties into other markets like New Jersey? Bet365 do operate in New Jersey. The taxation and the model is a little bit different there, but we're certainly actively chatting around opportunities to extend that service into the New Jersey market, which would obviously be a net benefit for us and the racing industry and also SIS and Bet365. So hopefully, a positive catalyst, albeit a small stepping stone, and we view it very positively moving forward.

Thanks, Jake. Lots of questions, sorry, on costs and revenue and getting to profitability. You obviously shared some sort of high-level guidance there around the 10% reduction in cost and continuing to grow low double-digit revenue growth. But maybe if you can just talk a little bit about how you're seeing costs going forward as you continue to scale the business and perhaps to the extent you can provide any sort of timing around getting to profitability and cash flow breakeven.

Yes. Jake, do you want to just step through your thoughts around that?

Yes, I'll cover off on the cost side. So as evidenced, I guess, by the implementation of our strategy and the technology, we have started to drive some really strong outcomes in this space, but certainly acknowledge that we need to do more. And we have flagged a target there within the presentation that we're aiming to achieve throughout this next half and hopefully beat that target as well. I think ultimately, the ability to continue to grow top line and keep that optionality for the business moving forward requires that we solve the cost base through technology and innovation, and we're going to commit to continue to do that. It's not as simple as just ripping cost out. We need to be much more tactful and much more sustainable. And I think the last 6 months have proven that that's the correct way to do things, so we can get both lines of the axis moving harmoniously. So I think that's the focus for me, anyway, to continue to solve the cost base issues through technology innovation and by deploying what we've been working on for the last few years and obviously getting greater efficiency out of it. So that's my focus, and obviously, how that ties in to the inflection point of profitability. I'll hand over to Matt.

Yes. So obviously, our key focus here is to capture more of the global value in the wagering market. We're doing so -- you can see the top line growing by 10% over the last 6 months or so. That's tricky to do while you're also doing cost reduction. I'm pretty impressed with the team be able to pull that off. We will be relentless on continuing to focus on reducing those operating costs. There are costs in our business that aren't controllable through operating costs. There are cost of goods sold, for instance, where we take products from other third parties and resell them. But within the cost that we can control, we'll continue to improve those and drive operating efficiencies through. When I look around the global market for wagering operators, there is significant growth. And when I look for demand for high-quality product, there's significant demand. So I sit here today feeling very comfortable. Over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, we'll continue to experience very strong demand for the products and services we have. That demand though does take time to really capture and they're both technology integration challenges. So when we announce a new customer, you can wait for up to 6 months or so for us to start booking revenue from that customer. So there is a lag period there between executing contracts, technical integration, delivery and live launch. We've experienced that with the Caesars operation. So we sit here with a strong pipeline of customer demand. We have great products. We will continue to deploy those. I expect we'll continue to see top line revenue growth. The pace at which that it happens is governed by, in part, our customers and regulatory approvals. We obviously are working as fast and as hard as we can to deliver those as quickly as we can but there are standard operating constraints that we have to work through. Do I sit here, though, worried about will cost increase, will revenue decline? No. I think the trend line is very clear against the last 4 quarters that we have delivered. You can see cost coming down substantially, and you can see revenue continue to trend upward. So we are absolutely moving in the right direction. The speed and pace we are doing so is governed by our ability to work with our customers as well as being careful not to damage the top line revenue growth trajectory we're on today.

Thanks, Matt. A couple of questions here, which I'll group together. One just around Global Betting Services. What is the growth outlook for this division? And then more specifically, another question, just if you can provide an update on the Caymanas Park partnership, how it's going and when do you expect the mobile app to be live?

Sure. So the GBS division was predominantly established for Australian market, a market in which racing solutions are probably at the most scale point globally. And over the last 12 months, we've worked hard to basically take all the learnings in development from that process into new markets. So the growth outlook for the GBS division is certainly into new markets outside of Australia, and we're starting to get a lot of traction with that over the last 6 months, as evidenced by some of the deals that are starting to flow through. And we do think that, that will be a continued trend for the next 6 months. So markets like the U.K. and Europe, obviously, Africa and Asia on the GBS side. Tying into the Caymanas Park question, we anticipate a soft launch in March for the digital solution, which will obviously be an increase in revenues on that partnership, and again, showcasing the GBS product suite further than where we are currently. So that's really exciting. Again, Matt mentioned there's a regulatory process you have to go through an onboarding, and this has certainly been a long grind. But again, like the Caesars deal, we're coming to the pointy end of that now and really excited to get into the marketplace.

Thanks, Jake. You mentioned regulatory there. There is a question come through more specifically into the Australian market around regulations and the potential impact of [ emerging ] sports gambling advertising crack down. So maybe just talk to -- do you see any impact from that across BetMakers business or for any of your clients?

Yes, sure. I think racing is a unique product set in that regard in that it exists is wholly aligned with wagering. I think a lot of the discussion around the advertising changes is probably more focused around live sport than it is racing and there'll certainly be some carve-outs for racing-focused channels. More broadly, I think a responsible service across advertising and wagering more generally is a good thing for the industry. Obviously, we want to be it for the long haul, and we want our customers to be in it for the long haul as well. And I think some of the proposed changes, a good, strong common sense changes that will set the industry up for a much more long-term success and certainly have them operate with a stronger social license.

Thanks, Jake. Question about the PA Services agreement that was announced post balance day. What are the opportunities to come from this? What can investors expect?

Yes. So the PA Betting Service brand is a synonymous brand with wagering and dates way back to form guide in the papers back in the '70s and '80s and is now [ permanent ] sort of digital solution for operators in the U.K. and European markets, particularly on the data delivery side and content. And BetMakers has obviously got a number of solutions on the platform of trading and pricing front that complements this product suite. So they've got an existing customer list in excess of 200 wagering operators predominantly in the U.K. and European markets that we identify cross-sell opportunities with. And basically, it's BetMakers dressing up our embedded Next Gen racebook content with the PA AdVantage Content, and then having the Press Association team being able to offer that to their network. So it's a true partnership and a really good alignment on our -- both respective skill sets. So for us, it's a way to open up new market and obviously leverage that partnership and the best of both worlds.

Thank you, Jake. Getting through the questions. So thank you to investors for the questions coming through. Speaking about markets, there's a question just around geographic split of revenue. Maybe, Jake, just want to talk through a little bit about that then. And then also maybe beyond that, just how you see the BetMakers business growing over this next sort of 12 to 36 months, and where some of that revenue growth might come from?

Yes, sure. So the breakdown in the set of accounts, I think, has Australia around 35%, U.S.A. 35%, the rest of the world, covering the rest of about 30%. How that trends going forward? Look, I think there's a lot of regulated and regulating markets in that rest of world bucket, particularly throughout Lat Am and Asia. So I would anticipate that, that group grows, and you've got U.K. and Ireland that would fall within that as well. I think where we're pretty well established in a strong position in the U.S. and Australian markets, and the services and solutions are well scaled. So I would think that if you were to pick a bucket that has the most growth going forward, it would be the rest of world bucket, particularly around Lat Am and Asia.

Thank you. A couple of questions on [ BetUp ] . Maybe can you just provide some color on how the platform itself is performing and whether you're able to sort of pull out any trends from how customers are utilizing that platform? And maybe there was just a sort of a more other question around [ BetUp ] in general and how that company has performed and how that's impacting that makers performance.

Yes. Look, there's not a lot we can talk about an individual customers clearly. But in terms of how our technologies performed, I think we're pretty comfortable with how we went through the last set of results. I think our customers have started to really leverage the technology and services we put in. There was obviously a huge sprint over the last 18 months or so in terms of development into that platform, and we're starting to see some of the benefits come through there. So I feel pretty good about that. I think we've got a lot more to deliver over the next 3 to 6 months. And we'll be sitting behind that, feeling fairly proud of what the team have been able to develop and deliver and the quality of the product that you'll see as it goes in the market. Certainly, from the racing side, I think we had a bit of catch-up to do on the sports side. And I think the team are well aware of that and pretty focused on it. Jake, did you want to add anything to that?

No, I think the main theme, obviously, a strong and stable Spring Carnival, which is obviously the baseline metric for most at-scale platforms in the Australian marketplace. And as Matt touched on, we continue to work through product improvements on the sport and UX side and implementing some of those core assets that have got in our ecosystem like the Punting Form assets and some of the insights we can get from DynamicOdds.

Thanks, guys. Almost through the list of questions. Just one coming here probably for you, Matt, just around M&A. How BetMakers -- what was the lens towards M&A opportunities?

Look, I think M&A done right can be really accretive. Our focus has been on, firstly, inward focused on improving how we operate and run the business. But we actively monitor the market and look at various opportunities from time to time. The key for us is to be incredibly disciplined about it. And obviously, we want to avoid any kind of dilutive type of acquisition. It has to be accretive. We have to feel comfortable it moves us forward in the right direction, and it's consistent with where we're taking the business today. So we will continue to monitor the marketplace. And obviously, if we do find an opportunity, we'll bring it to market. We will continue to be disciplined about that and anticipate you'll see more activity over the next 6 to 12 months as the company looks around both domestic and international opportunities.

Thanks, Matt. Maybe staying with you again. A question just comes from around share price performance. The comment from the investor is the share price has been disappointing over the last 12 months. Do you have any comments about the share price performance?

It has been disappointing. We're not alone there. I think there are a large number of stocks that have experienced a similar market swoon. I think at this point, we're a turnaround stock, I think it's fair to say, and it's reasonable for some investors to want to sit on the sidelines and watch that turnaround get executed on. A big part of what we -- Jake and I have been focused on delivering over the last 4 quarters is a consistent message demonstrating our improvement in both the operating cost base as well as driving top line revenue growth. And as we continue to execute against that, I anticipate we will see further market embrace of that and further investor support. That does come down to showing top line revenue growth, positive cash flow from operations and an expanding EBITDA margin. And I feel comfortable we're well on track for that. If you look at the trend line over the last 4 quarters, you'll see the company at the start -- well and truly delivering against that, and I anticipate we will get market support as we continue on that journey there. It's not easy, it's not fast, but I feel very comfortable on the right track there. And we will get the share price we deserve as we deliver against those.

Thanks, Matt. One final questions come in. I might just wrap that up into a question I'd like to put to you is this question has come through around when you expect to see dividends from the stock, and -- which is maybe more of the long-term thing. So how do you see BetMakers? You've obviously talked about this next 12 months of growth and getting to profitability and there's a lot of exciting things there. But thinking beyond that 4 to 5 years' time, how does BetMakers fit into this ecosystem and where would you like to see BetMakers?

Yes. Look, I think BetMakers has established itself now as a truly globally diversified B2B supplier in the sports betting and gaming space. What we haven't delivered though is positive EBITDA margins. And we're well on track for that, as you can see, getting down to just under minus $1 million in EBITDA for the first 6 months of this year. I think it's fantastic. So we're well and truly on track to get there. Where do I see us in 5 years from now? We should have EBITDA margins of 20% to 30% on offering revenue, and we should be highly profitable. As you know, we have 0 debt on the balance sheet. So if we get to a position where we're continuing to add cash to balance sheet and we can't look at areas where we can deploy that effectively, absolutely, we will consider [ dividending ] up back to shareholders. We do not have any philosophical challenge against that. The point at the moment is there is so much growth and opportunity in front of us that now that we have cleaned house internally, we can start to turn our attention to those areas, and we anticipate strong growth over the next couple of years. But yes, should we end up in a position where we have excess cash, we will happily return that to shareholders.

Excellent. All right. Looks like we've exhausted all the questions. So thank you to all investors for your time this morning and for your questions. Matt, Jake, Anthony, well done on a great set of results. Obviously, exciting things coming forward. I would just hand over now to you, Matt and Jake, to close things out.

Thanks, Eric. Just appreciate everyone's time today go through the results. We've put quite a bit of information there. It should be easier to understand, and you should be able to see and benchmark the business against its previous statements and commitments in the last 4 quarters. We're well on track and appreciate everyone's patience in helping us get there.

Awesome. [indiscernible].

Thanks.