BNP Paribas SA (BNP) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the first deep dive call dedicated to corporate and retail payments with members of the top management, BNP Paribas. For your information, this conference call is being recorded. Supporting slides are available on the BNP Paribas IR website, invest.bnpparibas.com. [Operator Instructions] I would like now to hand the call over to Ms. Benedicte Thibord, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, Madam.

Good afternoon. We are delighted to welcome you to our first Deep Dive call dedicated to corporate and retail payments. The objective of this new initiative run by BNP Paribas Investor Relations team, is mainly to help you understand the value of BNP Paribas diversified and integrated model. I now pass on the mic to Lars.

Thanks, Benedicte, for the mic. Good afternoon, fine ladies and gentlemen. Together with Thierry and Yann, we are going to focus on corporate and retail payments. But let me start by introducing Yannick Jung, Head of Global Banking, Pierre Fersztand, Global Head of Cash Management, Payments, Trade Solutions and Factoring and Aurelia Normand, Head of Global Transaction Banking, CIB, and this is to take you on a journey through BNP Paribas payments activities. We will present to you our vision of the market opportunities, our key strengths as well as our unique positioning and strategy. At the end, we will be pleased to take your questions. I now hand over the floor to Thierry to take you through the key elements.

Thank you, Lars. Let's move to Slide 3. A few words on payments and flows at BNP Paribas, before deep diving in our topic of the day payments. These activities cover all solutions from trade and working capital financing to cash management and cards serving all our client franchises from wholesale clients to retail customers, including individuals and SMEs. These activities are valuable for the bank, at the core of client relationships while being profitable and source of granular deposits. BNP Paribas is among the few banks able to provide comprehensive and global cash management services and has consolidated its position over the years as we saw several banks returning from this activity. Today, our transaction banking solutions, including cash management and trade activities for corporate and institutional clients, are available in 52 countries globally with local capabilities and on-the-ground teams. Today, we are a leader in Europe. We have tied #1 in transaction banking in EMEA in revenue terms from large corporates and #2 in terms of large corporate market penetration in Europe for both cash management and trade. And more specifically, on cash management in the countries where we have a retail network. Our footprint is not as deep in other regions, notably Americas. We are the strongest banks in cash management worldwide, have a natural presence. Consider; however, that it's difficult for new entrants to become relevant in Europe with its fragmented payment landscape. We are one of the few banks in Europe to invest in industrial capabilities and the fast-evolving acquiring market with acquiring capacities in 25 countries in Europe. Beyond a strong position in cash management, we have indeed the ambition to be among the large European acquirers. This highly digital business has a strong growth potential as we can see in current market valuations. Finally, we are the only international bank combining in the same industrial approach, transaction banking, merchant servicing and retail payments altogether. This is a key edge in this market where interactions between client basis intensified and industrial capabilities become more quiet. Our innovation, for instance, are rather co-created with our clients to answer specific use cases then developed on a standalone basis for marketing purposes. Considering all this, the group has set high ambitions for these activities as part of its GTS 2025 plan. Let's now move to Slide 4. BNP Paribas has announced an initial objective of EUR 600 million additional revenues in 2025 compared to 2021 from our payment and flows activities. As mentioned by Lars, and announced in our first quarter results, this target has been exceeded 2 years in advance with contribution from all products and client segments. Based on this strong performance, we have set a new target of additional revenues at [ EUR 8 million, ] EUR 200 million more than our initial objective. Note that this number does not include the net interest margin and deposits derived from our cash management businesses. Globally, in '23, the payment and flows initiatives represented about EUR 6 billion in revenue, so roughly 13% of our group revenues, including net interest margin on corporate deposits. Payment and flows activities across all client franchises and geographies will contribute to these new targets. Thanks to market share gains and underlying market evolution. This ambition is being delivered while sticking to a strict risk approach in line with BNP Paribas policy. For example, commodities trade finance and cornerstone of the banking activities, which the group decided to strictly limit are not part of this initiative. For today's session, we'll focus on payments activities for both corporate and retail clients, which includes cash management for corporates, merchant services and retail payments. Beyond the [ EUR 800 ] million additional revenues in '25, this activity as strong potential for future value creation on a longer-term basis and fits well with our integrated model are further described in the next slide by Yannick. To you, Yannick.

Well, thank you, Thierry. So I invite you to move to Page #5. I will first tell you our payments taken in the broad sense of cash management, merchant services and retail payments are indeed a very powerful value creation engine for the group. I will then try to explain to you how payments sit squarely right at the core of our integrated model. So in what ways are payment creating value for us? Well, first, payments are the cornerstone of the banking relationship at the very heart of our clients' daily business and serving the entire client franchises of the bank. It is about addressing the daily banking needs of our clients. It is about paying employees and suppliers. It's about collecting customer payments. It is about managing and safeguarding liquidity. It is also about moving money around the world. Second, thanks to our payment activities, we gained a deep understanding of our client flows and specificities. We can then better address their specific needs and improve risk management. Payments are, in fact, a formidable source of data, which helps us offer value-added services to our clients. A good example of that is how we improve fraud detection by identifying unusual payment patterns. Now the third important point in terms of value creation that payments are a source of recurring fees that are actually linked to the volume of transactions. Such fees are generated by more than 70,000 corporate and institutional clients worldwide. In other words, this is a highly granular source of fee income for us. Payments are also a very sticky business with high barriers to entry and low churn. Average cash management mandate duration are long up to 8 years for corporates on average. Finally, payments are a source of granular and stable deposits that are providing quality funding to the group and attractive margins with the limited capital consumptions. Now on to the right-hand side of this Page 5. As mentioned earlier by Thierry, payments are at the core of BNP Paribas integrated model in several ways. Our payment activities are fully leveraging the group's client franchise as well as our global network. Now 2 data points to illustrate this. 80% of the European corporate clients of CIB have a cash management relationship with us. Second data point. 60% of our cash management customers generate cash management revenues in at least 2 different countries. Now payments also offer a unique opportunity for us to cross-sell the bank. Another couple of data points, if I may, to illustrate that. First, 90% -- 90% of CIB cash management plans are active with at least another business line of the group. Second data point, cross-regional cash management revenues earned from multinational client service by CIB have grown on average by 30% per year over the past 5 years. On a broader level, payments contribute to the overall cross-sell generation within BNP Paribas, which represents close to 1/3 of the group revenues back in 2023. I hope I gave you a good sense that payments and flows are a genuine source of value creation on a long-term basis for BNP Paribas. Now if you care, let's move to the next page. I will take a minute now for a quick close-up on cash management, which is one of our strongest businesses. Our cash management solutions are available in close to 50 countries with dedicated teams on the ground and access to the local training systems. We serve both corporates and institutional clients from payments and collections to liquidity management and short-term investment solutions. Our cash management franchise has experienced substantial growth throughout the years on the back of the bank's vital investments and expansion of its client franchise and of its corporate platform as a whole. As you can see on the chart, we are the undisputed leader in Europe in terms of market penetration for the large corporate segment with a massive acceleration in recent years. The continuous and significant market share capture that you see at play there was facilitated by 2 factors: first, the constant drive from our clients to rationalize their banking relationships. And second, the fact that some competitors have been withdrawing from the cash management market from certain geographies. As we look ahead, we are fully confident that we will continue to gain market share, thanks notably to the continuous investments in our global cash management platforms and to our key differentiating factors. Aurelia lie will now elaborate on all of these aspects.

Thank you, Yannick. Let's now move to Slide 7. One of our main strengths is indeed our industrial capabilities. Over the years, we've made significant investments to build resilient, secure and scalable in-house payment engines. These engines meet the highest technical standards. They enable us to cover the needs of both corporate and individual clients and to handle large volumes. For account-to-account payments, we have today pan-European industrial platforms for SEPA credit transfers, direct debit, credit transfers, instant payments and for international payments. Altogether, these mutualized platforms process more than 4 billion transactions in 2023. The most recent one, our instant payment engine runs on BNP Paribas cloud, providing both agility and high security standards. This places us in a great position to capture the expected significant growth of instant payment volumes. Volumes processed on our platform have already been multiplied by 3 from 2021 to 2023. An important part of the investments in our payment platform is dedicated to controls and security. This is a critical part for an institution in the payment industry and it requires continuous investments in technology and data. This is the case for anti-money laundering, financial security as well as cybersecurity and fraud in which we have continuously invested using the latest technology standards. Our payment engines are reached by a European payment data hub, which covered more than 7 billion events on payments in 2023, allowing the 24/7 real-time monitoring of transaction flows as well as fraud detection enhanced capabilities. Finally, we are continuously crafting the strategy of tomorrow for Global Payments to be fast, seamless and cost-efficient. We have been at the forefront of innovation and change through various collaborative industry initiatives such as SWIFT GPI and ISO 2022. Today, we are piloting new use cases with SWIFT-connected corporations across the world to achieve seamless traceability and control on corporate payments. To conclude on our industrial payment platforms, I would really insist on 3 points. The first one is that they are resilient and secure. Second, they are fully adaptable to evolving market standards like real-time instant. And third, are scalable and future-proof and therefore, they allow us to grow at marginal cost. I now invite you to move to Slide 8. So as just mentioned, our industrial capabilities are one of our key differentiating factors on which we will capitalize to continue to grow at marginal cost. Leveraging on these strengths, we have built comprehensive capabilities across geographies to process payments and receivables, including the most complex and sensitive ones. Just to give you a few examples. If you look at utility companies, we're able to simplify their collection from millions of customers through industrial processing of direct debit in one go, tapping into data analytics to optimize successful collections. We also provide to corporate high-value treasury transfers with competitive cutoff times and large liquidity provisions across currencies and countries. We are a trusted partner of digital payment companies and provide them access to efficient payment rails. We also facilitate and monitor sensitive payments in case of mergers, acquisitions and deal closing where the payment is on the critical path of high-profile business transactions. Finally, we offer the capability to pay internationally in more than 100 currencies with end-to-end transparency. Our value proposition to both corporate and institutional clients also relies on our ability to act as a trusted adviser to our clients, taking our clients' objectives and needs into account to build the most studied solutions. We have notably developed a co-creation approach with some of our key clients to ensure that our product developments address their exact needs today and tomorrow. This is the case, for example, when we develop a tailor-made virtual account solution for a large shipping company. [indiscernible], enable our clients to optimize cash contestation, cash flow forecasting and reconciliation management. This flexible and scalable offer will accompany them in their centralization journey to implement payments and collections on behalf at group level for their euro flows. The key differentiator here for BNP Paribas was the ability to tailor this solution to the specific needs and operational setup of the client. Another key differentiator is our multi-local presence, with teams on the ground and in-depth local capabilities, combined with global and standardized solutions such as our connectivity or cash-flowing solutions. What that means is that we have both the capabilities to deal with local payment specificities, such as bills of exchange in France or RIBA in Italy and the ability to help our customers rationalize their global treasury setup. As an illustration, we can mention the recent mandate we obtained from the Belgian government to become their payment provider, supporting more than 2,000 accounts and 50 million payments in Belgium including all corporate cards, payment terminals and bulk instant payments. This demonstrates our ability to act as a true local player offering the full range of payment solutions. And on the other side, we've also proven our ability to accompany our large MNC clients in their treasury rationalization projects on a global scale. One example is a large European pharmaceutical company with a turnover of EUR 40 billion-plus, which we have been accompanying for the last 15 years. First in Western Europe, and now covering 22 countries in EMEA and APAC for the cash management needs. It chose BNP Paribas last year to be the strategic partner in the reshaping of their in-house bank. This was a transforming project on the client side and a strong testimony not only of our global capabilities, but also of our advisory approach. Our cash management offer is also fully integrated with the group-wide solutions. For example, we offer a fully automated and competitive solution for cross-currency payments leveraging on our global market FX solutions, which is embedded into our international payment platform. This solution is available across the group to corporate and institutional clients and we have seen a significant tick-up in the past years with cross-currency payment volumes through this solution, growing at a plus 12% CAGR in the last 2 years. Cash management solutions are also closely linked to our wide range of investment solutions from deposits to money market funds. We have liquidity advisers working closely with cash management sales and asset management partners to offer best-in-class investment solutions. Finally, all those solutions from cash management to FX and deposits are embedded in our group digital platform, Centric. Centric, which also includes market insights, trade and working capital applications is a key component of the digital client journey, including self-servicing capabilities and access to NOA, our AI-powered virtual agents. Centric also support cross-selling. 56% of our cash management clients are using at least 2 digital services applications on top of that transactional application. Last but not least, a key component of our digital offer to support a lean customer journey relates to KYC and onboarding. Our welcome app, which is also available through Centric, supports paperless onboarding and KYC and is now available in 23 countries. Let's now move to our merchant services and retail payment businesses with Pierre. Pierre, the floor is yours.

Thank you, Aurelia. So let's move now to Slide 9. In terms of merchant services and retail payments, BNP Paribas has a unique positioning in Europe, covering the entire payment value chain. BNP Paribas has indeed been investing in both issuing and acquiring. Therefore, we have, first, a full fledge of our -- for merchants. Second, an issuing offer for our individual clients; and third, in between, a major role in domestic chains and clearing systems. This is a clear competitive edge, a key strength in the European fragmented market, being on both sides of the payment with a deep knowledge of usage. We are very well positioned to implement regulations, to improve fraud detection tools, to optimize acceptance rate for merchants and to adapt our offer in order to provide a seamless payment experience. Our major role in domestic chains in card clearing systems is also key to provide a competitive offer on a wide range of payment means. On both sides of card payments, individual issuing merchant acquiring, we will leverage on our industrial platform, as Thierry will explain to you in the next slide.

Thank you, Pierre. Let's move to Slide 10, which about our news or last news. On June 13, we announced together with our long-time partner in payments, group BPCE, a new project to strengthen our positioning in card payments in Europe. This new partnership will consist in the creation of a common processor for card payments with a platform at the highest technical standards. This project will allow us to embrace evolutions in the payment landscape. Digital payments are going so fast, and we believe this trend will last for at least a decade. This market is based on cards, but also dematerialization with volumes expected to increase strongly and intensified technological evolution. With this partnership, we will reach significant volumes, estimated at EUR 17 billion for group BPCE and BNP Paribas altogether by 2029. With this critical size, we will be in the capacity to meet our whole client base expectations, while anticipate market trends with constant innovation and maintain high-security standards. BNP Paribas and Group BPCE have chose to build this mutualized processor in a dedicated company with a common governance but with its own management and independent technology. This platform will allow for both cost reduction and an increase in innovation capacity at a European scale. We consider opening this platform to third-party operators at a later stage. In a nutshell, this industrial and strategic partnership is a strong move in terms of payment sovereignty in Europe with the ambition to become the leading processor in France and among top 3 in Europe. And now focusing on the merchant side of our payment value chain, I will turn over to you, Pierre.

Thank you, Thierry. Let's move to Slide 11 dedicated to Merchant Services. While some competitors have decided to withdraw from the acquiring business and while some fintech are growing in this market, we at BNP Paribas have been regularly investing in acquiring and merchant servicing. There is one reason for that. We believe that a bank cannot be a banking partner of a merchant without helping him to be paid. Merchant services require building end-to-end offers. This is not only processing flows. This is also bringing added value through point-of-sale terminals in the shops or digital screens on the merchant website or app. It is probably the more innovative and data-driven part of cash management. Just having in mind, France is the main country for card usage in Europe. And historically, by the way, the country of belts of chip cards. Our large client base in France, our good knowledge of the French Cartes Bancaires is a strong asset at European level. In Europe, we can manage card payments everywhere, covering 25 countries, growing our market share in Continental Europe as well as in the U.K. We have one umbrella brand for our Pan-European global offer, AXEPTA BNP PARIBAS. This brand includes all the value chain. We deliver our clients' end-to-end solutions, including enriched reporting through our unified real-time merchant portal or buy now pay later solutions through our fintech floor. As you can see, the barrier to entry is fast-growing and innovative business is high. And BNP Paribas is leveraging a strong position as a key player in Europe. As an illustration, let me present now 3 recent innovations from BNP Paribas. First one, our marketplace solution. Today, most merchants are offering online, not only their products, but also the products of all the merchants or even second-hand products. You are probably yourself, experience it when buying products on our website or on app, you discover that this product is not sold by the website owner, but by another merchant acting as a partner. The capacity to provide marketplace offer including onboarding and management of several partners of merchants has become key for the acquiring business. That is why we have decided 1 year ago to build our own fintech dedicated to marketplace offer. It is called 1.6. 1.6 is already live with its first client being already onboarded. Let me give you a second example. In France, we are among the first ones to propose to small merchants to transform their iPhone into a payment terminal. Accepting not only Visa and Mastercard, but also the French Cartes Bancaires. For small merchants, they will avoid buying a specific terminal. Lastly, a third example, is our partnership with Microsoft to embed payments in Teams. This offer is especially adapted to professionals like coach, doctor, that sell services in Teams and will be paid in an integrated manner. In a nutshell, we are one of the few European banks investing at all European level in merchant servicing. Our Pan-European innovative end-to-end offer is a key differentiator, leveraging on our strong corporate client franchise, on our proximity with local and European chains being able to deliver not only card solutions but also all means of payments, we can differentiate also from nonbank competitors. Moreover, PSP which are the fintech providing payment services to merchants are not only competitors, they are also very often our clients. Indeed, we have developed a dedicated cash management offer for this payment service provider is fintech in Europe. When merchants through the nonbank as a partner to process their flows. Quite often, we are at the end, processing the flow of this nonbank fintech. In conclusion on this subject, leveraging on this powerful setup. Our ambition is quite clear, with a target volume of process card transactions, as you can see in the slide, of EUR 4.2 billion in '25, more than 60% above the level of '21. And as you can see, we are well on track to reach these objectives. Let's now move to Slide 12, dedicated to retail payments for individuals. In Western Europe, 90% of consumer bank interactions are payment-related. BNP Paribas has invested to offer individual clients the best-in-class digital job. Again, the European virtualization and tomorrow, our industrial card processor are a competitive advantage. Our goal through our payment offer is to attract more clients, address fintechs or Neobank competition and improve client satisfaction. As you can see on the slide, our action plan relies on 5 pillars. First, we play a major role in the European payment landscape. For instance, we are launching in Europe with other European bank, the wallet Wero, the company is called EPI, to all of this year, '24 person-to-person payments. And next year, e-commerce digital payments in a large part of Europe. Second pillar, further digitalization of services, digital self-care is key for client satisfaction and for cost reduction. Third pillar, make payments instant and seamless. Nickel is our laboratory for this. It has been its current franchise of more than 2.5 million accounts, thanks to its offer, combining instant payment and real-time reporting. A second example in this field, is our new digital offer for international payments, including real-time ethics called My Transfer, volumes of international transfers have been multiplied by 5 in France in 2 years. Finally, thanks to our industrial platform. BNP Paribas is well positioned to embrace the upcoming massive development of instant payment in Europe. Fourth pillar, leverage on data to offer more services like cashback, loyalty. Finally, our fifth and very important pillar is to ensure secure payment, we are strongly investing in fraud detection and real-time alerting. With that in mind, I pass the mic to Aurelia, who will give us further illustration of our innovation capabilities.

Thank you, Pierre. I now invite you to move to Page 13. Technology is core and center to our cash management and payment activities. I mentioned before that we've made significant investments in building resilience and secure platforms at group level. Our investments in technology are also driving our innovation capabilities. We make sure our investments prepare us for the future and continue to position ourselves at the forefront of the market and technology evolutions, just to name a few generative AI, real-time tokenization. At the same time, we are working hand-in-hand with our clients to ensure we address the very concrete needs and help them meet their short-term and long-term objectives. I will now share a few concrete examples where innovation is driving customer experience improvements as well as efficiencies. I'll start with a few concrete use cases leveraging AI. We have created an AI team fully dedicated to transaction banking and payments, and we are already delivering on several use cases, 2 of them being shown on this slide. The first is NOA, our virtual assistant embedded into our digital platform Centric. It's improved client interaction while delivering operational efficiencies. The second one is the last, our fraud detection solution providing real-time payments filtering to optimize fraud detection rates. We mentioned earlier our co-creation approach and our key role in SWIFT initiatives. This, combined with latest technology allows us to build innovative solutions for our clients. A good example is our [indiscernible] offer. It aims at tracking payments with a focus on beneficiaries to make them aware of the status of specific payments that are due to them. It is directly accessible by beneficiaries in order to minimize the time spent chasing payments, and it allows them to access the public space where they can see nonconfidential data about the payments. A last example we would like to share to illustrate our innovation capabilities is the acquisition of FLOA. It demonstrates our ability to capture bolt-on external growth opportunities and to reinforce our innovative payments offer. Part of the group since 2022, FLOA offers a full range of flexible payment solutions, including buy now pay later, split payments, mini-loans and credit cards. It also provides other innovative offerings such as Circlepay, a payment solution that fosters product reconditioning. FLOA solutions are offered both directly to individuals as well as through merchants and fintechs. This integration allows us to offer best-in-class and flexible payment solutions to our clients. Plus business has been growing significantly since the acquisition with a number of active merchants being multiplied by 5 and the customer base of FLOA Pay by more than 2. After that look at innovation, I will let Yannick highlight the growth potential of our cash management and payment activities going forward.

Well, thank you, Aurelia, and please move to Page #14. Simply put, we think that our payment business has significant untapped runway growth potential going forward. And this is going to be through a combination of client franchise expansion and product innovation. In terms of client franchise, we see a strong growth potential on cross-regional business flows generated by our large and rapidly growing multinational corporate client base. This is clearly a priority growth area for us on which we are accelerating as I speak. In retail, we plan to leverage the expected organic growth of card usage, while we are looking to pursue our strong momentum in acquiring PSPs and finally, we aim at increasing our penetration rates within all of our client segments. One particular area where we see substantial room to expand is the provision of cash management services to financial institutions. In terms of the new product offering, we are targeting growth in U.S. dollar cash and liquidity management. We also see potential in developing an innovative issuing and acquiring offer for small and medium-sized businesses. Of course, our intent is to continue to leverage our very own points of strength, namely our integrated business model, our global footprint, our culture of collaboration in our key assets, technology and industrial platforms for a complete set of innovative solutions. I will now hand over to Yann for the concluding remarks.

Thank you, Yannick. Let's move to Slide 15, if you want. First of all, I would like to reiterate our BNP Paribas position is unique within the payment ecosystem. We have indeed 4 main differentiating pillars. The first one, client franchise, which is truly spending from retail to large corporates; two, a broad offer serving both global and local payment needs; three, strong and recurrent investment in technology and talent that allow us to serve clients better every day; and fourth, powerful industrial platforms, allowing us to grow at marginal cost while improving the quality of our services and the satisfaction of our clients. Then I would also like to stress again what all my colleagues told you since the beginning of this call. The Payment business is a strategic business for BNP Paribas. Payment systems are a crucial component of the bank relationship with its clients. As such, that are to be handled with the highest standards in terms of quality of service and security. This is what we do daily on BNP Paribas, and this is why we are gaining market share and client satisfaction every day. Two, payment activities create value for our shareholders. This is a capital-light business acting as a major source of recurring fee revenue and granular deposits. And thanks to BNP Paribas integrated model. And by the way, the deep dive is a world for example of what integrity model means to all of us on a day-to-day basis. Payments generate cross-business opportunities within the group. Lars?

Thank you. Fine Ladies and gentlemen, with this, we've come basically to the end. So if you can through the Slide 16 after we have, I trust demystified many of those elements. And so let me remind you what you see is the 5 boxes that basically underbuilt the investment case of BNP Paribas and see how the payments business provides a very powerful illustration and this at all of the levels. So if you look at the 5 boxes. So if you take the first one, it's a good illustration of our general principle. We've been highlighting that we provide the right service to the right client at the right level of profitability. So stepping up cross-sell, stepping up market shares. Secondly, I think it has been highlighted that it's a capital-light business with a low-risk profile. On the third, you also have seen that the corporate and retail payments allow us to expand our fee income business. And then on energy transition, as you might have known that cash management specifically, we have developed an offer for sustainable deposits, and we are providing account management services for sustainable projects. And the fifth, our franchise and ability to grow at scale allows us to attract and retain talent, including fintech. And so overall, beyond the 800 million objectives that Thierry mentioned earlier, we believe the development of our corporate and retail payment businesses is a strong area of growth for the group and this on a long-term basis. So thank you very much for your attention, and we open the floor for any questions you would have. Operator?

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Benoit Valleaux, ODDO BHF.

I have 2 questions on my side. Firstly, can you please go back to go -- sorry, one step back regarding your new partnership with BPCE? Regarding payments, we can observe various types of organizations in the market with different choices between what is made internally or externally. For example, one of your competitors has recently announced a global partnership with Worldline. So can you please tell us more what are the benefits of your organization? And what has driven the choice of this new partnership with BPCE? And my second question is on FLOA, you acquired early 2022. You have mentioned a very strong growth, close to 12 million clients, but -- can you -- can you please, or give us a bit more color on where the growth is going from, sorry, for example, what is coming from international expansion, what are the benefit for you of acquiring FLOA. And can you please also give us some metrics on the value creation or return on located capital for FLOA?

Okay. Good afternoon. I will answer to your first question, Thierry Laborde speaking about our new partnership with BPCE. This project provides for the creation of a common card payment processor. What is very different from Crédit Agricole announcement, it will be fully internalized. It will be our technology, both BNP Paribas and BPCE with a platform to the best technological standards. It covers the entire value chain from product management, card transactions, operations and infrastructure management. The pyramid of the development of the JV is higher than the other example that you mentioned. It would incorporate the best technological standards for payments, meeting the increasing digitalization of users, acceleration of mobile payments, expansion of e-commerce, demand for instant transaction as well as the innovations brought about by domestic and international skips. Cartes Bancaires, Visa, Mastercard and also EPI, European payment initiative and its commercial [indiscernible]. The purpose of the JV with BPCE is to significantly reduce cost, be more efficient and to mutualize the investment in innovation with a great partner, and it's a long run and we have a complementary vision of businesses between BPCE and BNP Paribas, indeed with lower cost, we can be more aggressive commercially, leveraging on our giga factory, it will also support our growth in terms of market shares. On top, we aim to turn the JV in our European player. The other point that you mentioned, it's a French initiative, a French initiative only our level of ambition is on the European level. And in a particularly competitive and innovative payments market, it's essential for us that this process as a European dimension so that it serves all our geographical locations. To conclude, together with BPCE, we are choosing a strong and strategic partnership based on a leading-edge technology base, able to provide the best service to our clients and to best embrace the pro forma change in the payments market. Pierre for the -- about the question on FLOA.

So I will answer to the second question on FLOA. FLOA is clearly acting in a fast-growing market and expensing activity in new geographies with new partners and new product offering. The overall, the business in France will be breakeven in 2026. The business outside France is in a start-up mode, growing from 0, 1, 2 years ago quite quickly in a lot of countries. New volume growth is exceeding 30% per year. So in a nutshell, it's a new business, quickly growing with breakeven in '26 in France and a starting mode outside of France. I want to add one thing, adding buy now pay later, which clients are more and more asking to our e-commerce offer for merchants is a strong guided value and helps quite a lot our acceleration in the offer to merchants.

The next question is from [indiscernible] Barclays.

Yes. I wanted to discuss actually the Slide 6 in more detail. Just to make sure, first of all, that I understand what you're showing here in percentage terms. So the 51% for this year, should I read that as meaning that out of all corporate clients in Europe for cash management, have already your clients? Is that the right way of understanding this number? And then I wanted to discuss the strong acceleration in the market penetration for BNP Paribas since basically 2020. So why this is an acceleration? I think you mentioned some other players were retreating. So it's not clear also on the other peers who you gained market share from? So anything you can tell us here on how that happened and why you think this can be sustainable over time? Obviously, some of your main competitors in Europe, other large corporate banks have rebounded off the lows. They want to grow in that business as well. There is more competition on the horizon? And then another question here on cash management, again, Italy seems to be less of a strength for you than France or Belgium. So why is the positioning a bit weaker for you in Italy? And can that change?

This is Yannick Jung. I'm going to take your question. First, you read Slide 6 well. What this basically says is that one out of 2 of the large corporates, who are responding to the coalition survey, the Greenwich survey, actually a client of the cash management services of BNP Paribas. So the way they define large corporates is based on the annual turnover, I think it's in excess of EUR 1 billion, but we can double check that. And not every single client is responding actually to the survey, but you have a statistically meaningful response base, which leads us to believe that yes indeed, one of the large corporate out 2 that are operating in Europe, Middle East and Africa, actually, working with BNP Paribas cash management service provider. So that's to your first question. The second part of your question, which is about the rapid expansion of the penetration rate that you see on this chart here. Maybe starting off with kind of generic observation. There is only today a very limited number of global competitors that are -- have the capacity to offer cash management services at scale in Europe. When you look at corporate and retail payments, that's a business that requires significant volumes, it's a scale business, which also requires overtime massive investment into your infrastructure, your operations, your IT stack. Not everyone within the overall competitive landscape. And here, I'm referring to European banks as well as a number of other regional players in other parts of the world have the capacity to sustain that kind of investment. And in fact, as you rightfully heard us say a number of our competitors have actually been retrenching from the market together or in some cases, withdrawing from a specific geography, which is creating opportunities for us when we're operating there. We can replace that bank as a cash management service provider locally. Now we have seen a certain amount of competition consolidation within our industry where investment needs, again, in IT, also processes to sustain regulatory requirements, to sustain also the necessary investment to secure to ensure you have a secure cash management system has effectively built significant barriers to entry. It is fair to say that over, let's say, the last couple of years, since rates have been moving back into positive territory. We have seen a form of intensification of the competitive intensity across Europe. This is to a large extent because the -- as the rates were going up, the cash management business was becoming more profitable and revenues were increasing for a number of the competitors. But this is a temporary trend we at BNP Paribas, have been firm believer in the cash management business for many, many years now over a decade. And as a result, have been building long-term investment plans with some of our competitors that are back in the race have not necessarily done. I would like also to mention that maybe also it doesn't show here on the chart, which is more specific to cash management. But just to mention that in the field of acquiring, we're also seeing intense competition notably from nonbank players, which are -- which, nevertheless, we believe our competitors we can match given we have the globality of our offering, and we have a diversified value proposition that they don't have. Now to your question on Italy, your question on Italy, I'm just checking my notes there. Our penetration rate in Italy is actually higher than the average penetration rate in Europe. It currently stands at 75% still on large corporate. And you'll be happy to know that in our other core markets and the Benelux, our penetration rate is actually extremely high at 90%, which means that 9 out of 10 of the large corporates that are responding to the Greenwich survey have a cash management relationship with BNP Paribas. So I hope that answers your question.

Next question is from Giulia Miotto, Morgan Stanley.

Yes. I found it particularly useful. And I have 3 questions, if I can. The first one is, you touched upon competition from new players. And if we listen to online native players like, for example, Adyen or even Stripe, they typically say that they thrive in payments complexity and their really key selling point is to help management -- to help merchants accepting payments everywhere in the world. Can BNP match this sort of servicing or essentially, where do you see yourself versus these new players, specifically when it comes to merchant acquiring? Then secondly, strategically, if I think about the capital that you have left after selling Bank of the West, I think payments would be an obvious area where you could invest. Do you see any gaps in your current business? Is there any area that you think deserves some focus and potential deployment of excess capital? Or in fact, after this partnership with BPCE, you could be done. And then my final question is on slide, I think it was Slide 4. So did I understand it correctly that you said, I think, 13% of group revenues come from essentially payments these 4 categories, do you disclose what sort of ROE this business makes, I would guess, north of 30%, but I don't know if you have any quantification? This is maybe more on for Lars.

So first one, Pierre. Clearly, on cash management, we are competing with banks. On acquiring now we are mainly competing with nonbanks, one you quoted. We believe we are in a good position for this competition. We have the full end-to-end offer. We have a European offer, and I had 3 things. First, we have a long-term, long-lasting global relation with the merchants and the corporate clients, not only on one fit. second, we are able to offer a wide range of payment solutions. These companies are very specialized in cards. More and more, we will offer we will offer instant payment, we will offer even direct debit solutions, local solutions in some countries like Italy that was quoted just before. And that is a very strong possibility and differentiating factor for BNP Paribas. And third, we are as a bank offering a full end-to-end offer, which means we can offer the terminal, the data, the reporting, the processing like those players. But at the same time, we are very open. We don't go with a solution once it all. You take my terminal, you take my solution, you take my screen. We can adapt to the terminal the clients already have. We can adapt to the ERP, the system of accounting, the clients already have. And this openness is more and more demanded by clients. So yes, competition is in acquiring in Europe is not with banks. It is with the nonbanks you quoted. Our offer is at good level. They are strengths, but I believe our strength in the long run are very relevant. That is for the first question.

On the capital redeployment. As you know, yes, we are still sitting on some capital that we redeploy. And as you know, I'm not going to redeploy it in a bank? So payments doesn't include banks. So payments is a good player where we could do so. Moreover, as you have seen, payments in Europe is a very still scattered kind of activities, so we can really leverage on bringing the integration under building with other segments. And so that is what we will continue to do. So whenever we have opportunities and typically, the yields intrinsically are fine and the integration that we can lever bring even more yields. So yes, if there are opportunities, we will definitely explore.

Definitively, Thierry Laborde speaking. We prefer to make organic development on our side. In the case with this new partnership with BPCE, it's a big investment and EUR 200 million for the 2 banks for the creation of the JV. We have also some investment to do to modernize our own system in BNP Paribas, in France, in Belgium, Italy because target of the JV is a European level. And we also -- Pierre mentioned that a few minutes ago. We invest in innovation with, for example, the launch of 1.6. 1.6 if we want to build to buy. So the same type of fintech, it's roughly EUR 150 million and EUR 200 million, and we will do the same with a smaller amount.

Let me rebuild on this. As you know, we are frugal, yes. So if we will buy something, the price will be right and it could be a technology part. So we will never do silly things.

And comment on Slide 4?

13% of group revenues. Yes.

Great. And ROE on that business? I'm still a -- so the details on ROEs.

No, the ROEs that we have in -- they are gravitating around 15%.

The next question is from Pierre Chedeville, CIC.

Yes, good morning, good afternoon. A follow-up question regarding the JV with BPCE because something is not very clear for me. Regarding the fact that one of the objectives of this JV is to develop in Europe, but as far as I know, BPCE is not really present in Europe compared to you and not really present at all. So I don't see exactly what is the balance between BNP and BPCE in developing in Europe. Can you clarify a little bit of that? Can I ask another question? Or do you want to answer...

Go ahead, go ahead. Sorry.

Another question is, of course, you talk about organic growth, things like that. But I was wondering if it would be possible, for instance, for this JV or for instance, [indiscernible], to work with other banks which are not big enough to develop and to invest in this payment industry and which would be tempted to work with white brands, for instance. And do you have any ideas on the fact that you could develop a partnership with other banks? And the last question is the question, a financial question. Could you give us a breakdown between CPBS and CIB regarding the amount of EUR 6 billion that you generate with this payment and cash management industry? And what type of cost income ratio do you have in, for instance, the retail -- pure retail payment business and cash management?

Thank you for your questions. First, answer about BPCE partnership. You're totally right. BPCE is more French and were more European. And what is very interesting to us is that BPCE accepted to develop some investments for -- for the development of BNP Paribas in Europe. It's a way to mutualize both this investment. And for example, for the time being, the flows of payments in Belgium, the flows of payments of card payments in Italy are not processed by BNP Paribas. Sales process from some industrial partners. In the development -- with the development of this new JV, we will have the ability to put, to internalize this list of businesses because our cost per transaction will be very competitive to do that. And it's also a JV open to the competition because we can serve some other banks in the future in France, in Belgium, in Italy and so on. So it's a very dynamic partnership, very ambitious partnership, and we have a total complementary with BPCE. They can put some volumes, big volumes on more retail than us and we could put in the JV international volumes in Belgium, Luxembourg and Italy and also the ability to serve merchants everywhere in Europe it's still the case. It's already the case for BNP Paribas. What's the last question?

Sorry, sorry, a follow-up regarding that. But in terms of number of transactions, what percentage comes from -- would come from BNP customers? And what part? Because when you look at it simply, we have the impression that it is much more advantageous for BPCE because it put the same amount of investment, but it will benefit from your much bigger footprint. Hello?

Sorry. Sorry. I thought it was my fault. No, no, no, no, no. It was mine. So what is key, it's BPCE will put on the JV, all the volumes of the business on issuing in France, and they are higher than us in France on the issuing side. On the acquiring side, we are higher, we have more volume on European side, but they are not so small on the acquiring side in France, and we will put in the JV, all the volume for the European or European franchise, but with a mutualization of 50-50 about the investment, the EUR 200 million investments. So it's a win-win partnership between BPCE and clearly, we're in partnership, and we will when -- and at the moment, we will internalize all the flows of Belgium and Italy, it will be more successful for us than for BPCE, clearly.

On the P&L, listen, on this one, you know at BNP Paribas we have opted to when we list P&Ls to do it by division, whereas what you have seen here is a view by clients. And so we already have so many divisions. We don't complement that with a view by a client. But I can give you some color. If you look at the color, it's like an element that you can look at is the cross-selling that is happening. If you look at 30% of the revenue that we generate, stem from cross-selling. And then if you look at cash management, that has a very high level of cross-selling. So 90%, so almost every client is basically acting with at least 2 divisions within the group. So that is basically what we see. And then if you look at it on the investments or the extra revenues that you're having, if you wish, and if that could guide you going forward. So if you look at the EUR 800 million, again, we don't split it. But if you look at it at the drivers that you have within the other activities, you could assume that 60% is CPBS and 40% is CIB. So that is a bit the guidance that I can give you.

And in terms of cost income?

And in terms of cost income, what you can apply is, again, those revenues are a bit on both sides. So you could apply the average cost income of the activity. The gain is coming from the capital requirement.

Next question is from [indiscernible] from BNP Paribas.

Maybe 2 questions. One is -- or 3 questions, sorry. One is on the decreasing rate environment. Maybe you can explain the sensitivity of the revenues to the declining rates? The second one maybe is about the capital allocation. How do I assess the capital, the RWA for the business? Is it just like the operational risk, I guess? So is there anything else to take into account for the capital allocation? And finally, what are the key risks for this activity of payment, I'm thinking [indiscernible] reputation or technology. So if you can elaborate on the key risks for that business?

I'll take the first 2 questions. So yes, on the capital, as we said, the capital requirement is "light" compared to others. And so the main thing is indeed the operational risk, which is the driver. And then if you look at interest rates, on interest rates, let's not forget that as we demonstrated on one hand, a large fraction of the income is stemming from fees. That's the first thing. And then on the interest income, what you should know is that a large part of the assets are basically marked up. So what I mean by that, the market that we charge to the client is like the number is wrong. I'm just giving you as an illustration. It's we marketed by 50 basis points. So the marking is not asset liability driven. So you take a market and intensively, if the rates go up or the rates go down, that market is there. So the sensitivity from that point is manageable when it comes to the level of rates. If levels would go back to 0, that would be a different thing. But if they remain hovering around 2%, 3%, that market remains what is the main driver. And then on top of that, there will be growth in the domain stemming from the volumes that we see. So that is a bit -- the key element. If you look at the risk, basically, as we mentioned, it's the operational risk and all these aspects, which are basically a key into those. And so it can come to us, a reputational risk or maybe if -- yes.

Yes. Looking at risk and just to complement what Lars mentioned -- Aurelia Normand speaking. We could mention like the 2 main ones being the interest in risk related to payment activities. So probably the first one be financial security. We see increased [indiscernible] payments in a world that's a complex and evolving geopolitical environment. And we do invest a lot in this area, be it on anti-money laundering, sanctions training, but it's clearly a risk and a barrier to entry for smaller players and new entrants. And the second one, as Lars mentioned, is operational risk. We've mentioned it's key to invest a lot in IT assets and to fight against obsolescence in a fast-evolving technology environment. There again, the only way to remain in the game is to invest with the long-term strategy in our IT landscape. And maybe 2 other categories of risks that are risk and opportunities at the same time. One we can mention is the fast-evolving regulatory environment, taking, for example, the deployment of Instant Payments. It's both an opportunity because we can develop added value services for our clients around that. But it's also a risk because it requires investments and typically only a limited number of players can afford these investments, one of them. The last one we could mention in terms of fast evolving environment is the client demand. It's evolving fast, supported by new technologies. This is creating new payment habits and we need to address them and market players need to address them if we want to remain competitive. So there again, it requires anticipation, a long-term vision and investment, as we've presented before.

Next question is from Chris Hallam, Goldman Sachs.

Just 2 questions. So first, you've said that you have a cash management relationship with 80% of your European CIB corporate clients. What about the other 20%? Is there a reason you don't extend cash management services to those clients? Are they using someone else? Or is this -- just a grouping of corporate clients who wouldn't be economic to bring onto the platform? And then second, which is, I guess, sort of connected, what would the trigger point be for a corporate client to come to you and decide to use BNP Paribas as a provider of cash management services, what causes that corporate to rethink whether they're getting the best service from their current provider and then think about turning to you.

So will -- this is Yannick Jung. I will take the first question, and I think Aurelia, you're going to take the second one. So the simple answer to your question is that, indeed, they are working with someone else, the 20% that are not using us for cash management. It means that they're using a separate service provider. And part of the name of the game for us to continue to expand is to identify the good ones, those that have high potential and to convince them to win them over on our site. So this is part of the growth potential that we have.

And if you look at why clients would like us when making the chance of cash management partners, I think we've mentioned our leading position. Of course, there is one trend that's important to mention our corporate clients that after efficiencies as well, they need to generate savings, and they are like engaged in to rationalize programs for their treasury department. So they're looking for basically rationalizing and downsizing the number of cash management partners. And when doing so, they look for solid partners and partners are able to provide added value and efficiency solutions to them and we are one of them, their partner. We provide both the resilience and the innovative dedicated solutions, GPT, we're able to provide like AI-powered reconciliation solutions that help our clients save a lot in terms of efficiency at their level. So that's probably one aspect. On top, of course, the resilience of our platform and the fact that they know they can count on us for the long term with solid infrastructure.

And the other criteria that will come into play are obviously our global footprint, the fact that they can have access to a network of over 50 branches. They would look at our industrial platform to Aurelia's point, which is safe, it's secure. And that's a very important decision factor for any corporate nowadays. They would look at the fact that we have a very complete service offering across all of their different needs. And finally, they would factor in most probably, the fact that we have super coordinated front office teams. So the level of cooperation that exists between our teams that are handling to client relationships and our product specialists is a very strong differentiating factor compared to many of our competitors.

The next question is from Anke Reingen with RBC.

Two questions, please. On Slide 4, I mean, listening to your presentation, obviously, lots of opportunities for growth. So I'm a bit surprised to see that your revenue growth potential is slowing down from '23 onwards. Is this because basically, you're already #1 or is this to do with interest rates? Or is it just generally, maybe the EUR 200 million of conservative assumption? And then secondly, on, I guess, tech investments, you mentioned this a few times could also be a barrier to entry. I mean, what's the -- are you willing to give us an indication in terms of what the cash spend is per year on your payments initiative? Maybe looking at it a different way, given you mentioned scale and investments, if you would use Slide 4 would actually the profit growth accelerate as investments pay off and you have scale effects.

Yes, Anke, I'm not sure I understood your question on Page 4. So what we basically said is that the increase we reached it 2 years earlier. And so basically, on the initial moment, we will do EUR 200 million more. So a total of EUR 800 million. So why is that ambitious?

If you have like EUR 600 million over '21 to '23, it's is EUR 200 million more of another 2 years. So I would think, given all the initiatives that's going on, the growth could accelerate.

But again, the ambition was, as we said, is that to grow into that period. And so we add 2 years and we add 200 over and above that recurring business. So I think it is a sweet growth.

It's not a net interest margin. It's also majority fees, regular revenues from these initiatives. So it's -- to have this -- to feed this ambition is to have new clients, new volume to gain market share. And maybe we were a little bit humble when we define the objective in '21. But we beat in and it's a little bit spectacular. It's more than EUR 20 million of regular fees.

They have not scaled down just thinking if they could even accelerate more given all the initiatives you're having it.

You know us, right? I mean we set all sales, we step up and do if I can [indiscernible] saying we typically under promise and over deliver, so.

I take that.

You know last pushes, last pushes...

And on the tech investments, cash investments per year, can you give us an indication or that's not possible?

So we can disclose the investment. The [indiscernible] is over EUR 100 million every year. Part of it is on reliability and regulation. A big part of it also is to answer to the new needs of our clients and innovation.

And to answer to the corporation that we push with our clients. So it's EUR 100 million per year to invest in this activity.

The next question is from Stefan Stalmann, Autonomous Research.

Thank you very much for the interesting workshop. Two questions from my side, please. I'm still trying to figure out whether building European payments business is actually a truly pan-European business, where you have real cross-border synergies or is it really a collection of relatively fragmented local businesses? I think a lot of things that I heard today make me think is probably more on the integrated side. But you also said that because of the fragmentation of the European market, it was not so interesting to U.S. players. So I'm wondering how I should think about this? And I would also like to follow-up on Slide 6, where we discussed this increase of your market penetration from 28% to 51%. What I actually find very interesting about this chart is that the penetration rates of a lot of your competitors didn't change much. So there's no obvious bigger competitor who left the market. And it looks like on average, corporates are now dealing with more banks than maybe 10 years ago in cash management. So no sign of rationalization in that chart. Is that actually a good thing for you as maybe some of these competitors will finally exit, given the lack of relative penetration compared to you? Or is it a bad thing because some of these competitors would actually fight back at some point?

I will start with the first question on the elements. Indeed, as we said, what we see is basically in Europe, the systems are scattered yes. So in order to do it, you need local systems. And then you have to have or an interface or basically getting to a local system. And it's, to some extent, also what's happening in the second one. So you have to be willing to make the investments. The EUR 100 million that we talked about, I'm not convinced -- I'm basically convinced that not many banks are willing to do that investment or have the capabilities to do so. We do have those kinds of investments. That's what we keep on doing. And that is positioning us in a rather unique rate to capture this.

The landscape, it's global and local. And what we did, and I think it's globally unique in Europe. We have all unique asset for each mean of payment. An asset for SDV and asset for SCP, and asset for instant payment and soon on European assets for cards. It's totally unique. And all these IT assets serve -- are serving all the clients from CIB, all the clients for the CPBS. It's unique. Welcome, for example, the digital portal for the client. It's a unique digital portal for corporate clients within CIB and for corporate clients within CPBS.

To your second question, this is Yannick Jung. What we see at play right now is the fact that a growing number of multinational corporations are actually concentrating the handling of their payments, the handling of their cash management requirements into never reducing number of counterparties. And as a result, shifting service provisions in different countries to aggregate them into pan-European or pan-regional cash management contracts, for instance. And the number of banks that are capable of handling those pan-European requirements, which again boils down to how present are you in different countries, how many branches are you operating? How many payment systems are you capable of handling across your platform is one of the key decision factors there. We're fortunately for us, one of those banks that is benefiting from this trend. And when you look at this slide, the stage that you were referring to, what this shows is that we are today, the one bank in Europe that has the broadest, the largest established base of clients that are using our cash management services. To some extent, you can argue that this is going to be a formidable platform for us to continue to grow because it doesn't necessarily mean that they are using BNP Paribas, those 1 out of 2 corporates, they are not necessarily using BNP Paribas in every single one market, in everything in one country where they have operations. And a large part of our growth potential, a large part of what it is we do every day is actually to convince them to upsell, to convince them to work with us in new geographies. And this is something we do well. And I can assure you that we see a lot of request or proposals that have been organized over the last 2, 3 years, notably as the world is becoming more fragmented and they even say a little bit more dangerous in a few places. Well, we see a lot of those requests for proposals that are coming up, and we win more than our fair share. So I expect that we're going to see continued top line expansion as a result of this market share capture.

Any further questions?

The next question is from Delphine Lee at JPMorgan.

Thank you for the very interesting deep dive. I just have 1 question left. Just really a quick clarification on your Slide 4, going back to that slide. The additional EUR 200 million, is that already part of your update of the DTS plan that you have provided with Q4 results or is that something that is new? And I assume that you haven't provided figures of what you expect from, for example, the BPCE partnerships, which should contribute a bit more as well, I would assume or is that already part of -- because I guess it's a bit too early for 2025?

No. The new ambition of 200 million, it's part of our publication of communication, but the potential for the new partnership with BPCE, it's not part. We have to build a solution, we have to launch it. And in due time, we will communicate what the objective, the financial objective of this new partnership.

The last question is from Jacques-Henri Gaulard, Kepler.

I had 3, I guess. The first one, Lars, I was surprised about the cost-income ratio of the activity that you said was roughly in line with the proportion of CPSB and CIB because it seems to be very high pretax margin business. Well, generally, it's usually quite low. And I would assume that this business is more at the service of the other division in the integrated business you mentioned. So I guess in that context, is the next step for this activity is to sell data simply because you're collecting a lot and it's a big part of the operations there. And the last point is how many retail client and how many merchants do you have in Europe on this activity? And do you have any sort of like growth rates is where you want to go within the next 3 to 5 years?

I'll take the first 2 questions. So with respect to the cost-income ratio, as I basically said, it's an activity which has a relatively intense high touch when it comes to the activity. So that is why the main driver for the overall profitability that I mentioned is the fact that it is capital light. So that's one. On the next steps on selling data, you're talking to the wrong bank. So we are not selling our data. When it comes to data, we have made the use that we basically have are so "data rich" that we basically use our own data, and that is more than sufficient for what we do and to trigger cross-sell and don't sell the data. So that's basically my 2 questions.

So in number of clients, we are -- if you look at numbers, we are serving all the clients, individual and small merchants of our markets, France, German and so on. So it's about 20 million individuals and several hundreds of thousands of small merchants. So if your question is how many clients, 20 millions of individuals, several hundreds of thousands of merchants, a lot. And then if your question is how many very large corporate in the CIB world is the answer you have in the slide we already commented on the Greenwich result.

So I think we've come to the end of the meeting. So I wanted to thank you all for attending our first deep dive, which was focused on corporate and retail payments. And the objective is really to help you to get a further clarification on our diversified and integrated model. And so as a reminder, as a placeholder, the next session will be dedicated to equity and prime services. That will be in September. And of course, I hope to reach out to you on July 24 for the second quarter results. Thank you very much and wishing you a very fine day.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the deep dive call dedicated to corporate and retail payments. Thank you for participating, and you may now disconnect.