Catcha Digital Berhad (0173.KL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our investor briefing. Apologies for the slight delay. I had a bit of technical issue. Some delivery company just called me. Let me just ensure that I put it up on the screen. Can you guys see my screen actually? Okay, it works. So today, as usual, we are having our quarterly investor briefing. And this is the agenda for our Q2 FY 2025 investor briefing. Quite similar to the past, I'll go through quickly on what the company does, especially for the benefit of the new joiners. And then we will touch on our financial performance for Q2 2025 quickly. And then we're going to quickly talk about new acquisitions that we have announced and then touch on the rights issue that we have announced that we will put to EGM for a vote quite soon, and then go into a general Q&A. So first up, I'll quickly share about the company's vision and mission and the plan moving forward. So really like our whole plan for the company is to build a digital -- the #1 digital group in Southeast Asia. Very broadly, these are the high-level numbers that the market numbers that we can look at. So the digital economy in ASEAN is very big. It's going to grow 2.5 trillion in a few years' time. The economy is growing very fast, 20% almost every year, not right now. And the digital advertising is -- segment is really contributing to more than 3/4 of the global advertising expenditure globally now. Especially in our new business enterprise software, we're into, it's a growing category as well globally speaking. Really today, Catcha Digital, we are 2 business group right now, effectively. We have our digital media business, and we have our software business that is where we recently venture into. So in terms of our digital media business, it's very much a fairly stable business now. The acquisition has been completed a few years now, and we are scaling up the business by adding on a few other synergistic acquisitions along with our organic growth. And as for software as a new sector that we recently went into, and we're actively looking for more opportunities in that as well. As a whole, our model is fairly simple. We, in short, build and acquire great entrepreneurial companies with sustainable profits and cash flow. So what we try to achieve is, one, we build and acquire these great companies. We enable growth by supporting and coaching these companies and people in best practices. And the money that we make and the capital that we accumulate, we will reinvest them by acquiring other new businesses or investing in other new organic growth opportunities. And with that, we hope to create long-term sustainable shareholder value. Our approach is, I suppose, quite tried and tested. It's a fairly balanced approach. We rely on good organic growth in our underlying businesses, run all our businesses very, very efficiently and ensure that if there's any cost synergies for companies, we will make sure to consolidate these costs. And overall, we also take a very acquisitive approach where we see good companies at a fair price. We would then look at acquisitions and pulling them into the group. And with that, we think this is a very simple but effective model to generate strong cash flow for us to keep doing 1, 2, 3 above. And over time, this, we think, is the most sustainable way to create shareholders' return. And I will talk briefly around our acquisitions approach so to level set everyone's understanding about how we do things. So we don't get the wrong impression that we just simply buy companies. It's a very methodical process overall. So you see quite a lot of acquisitions announcement coming from our side. They broadly fall into 2 big categories. So the first categories would be platform acquisitions. And these are typically businesses with already sufficient scale at the point of acquisitions or we would buy this business so that we can build around it. So that's what we call a buy-and-build approach where we add on acquisitions to platform acquisitions. And these are typical companies without any integration of our existing business, whereas add-on acquisitions is more of an expansion -- acquisitions for expansion, it could be for geography, it could be for product, or it could be from a supply chain perspective, are we going up or down the supply chain or we expand horizontally for -- to expand our business, or it could be a subdivision that we want to build up internally that we -- in that particular context, typically, it's still said that it's hard to build organically and we will acquire ourselves into it. Overall, these are the high-level criteria when it comes to acquisitions. We are focusing on companies that are market leaders for a platform. They have established track record and a very strong management team. And quantitatively, we are looking at companies with more than 5% growth rate, very predictable revenue, at least a margin of 10%. And then in terms of sites, this typically range between 0.5 million to 10 million in profit. Whereas for add-on acquisitions, these tend to be a smaller company, and we add them on because they're strategic value add that we can extract that can drive profitability. Quantitatively, these are companies that are already quite on track to a sustainable profit margins and that shows strong promising operating metrics. One of the key things that we care a lot about to ensure we scale our team in a very disciplined manner is that we guide all our deal structure to be generating 20% of IRR. So we create a very accretive structure that incentivizes both parties involved, meaning us and the sellers as well. 20% IRR, in more layman's term, basically means that you tend to see a [ swing ] between 4x to 9x earnings depending on the growth of the business. The free cash flow growth a year is between 5% to 20%. The payment [indiscernible] tranche over 24 to 48 months, tied to some sort of profit or performance guarantee, and we tend to acquire a majority stake with option to acquiring the remaining stakes. Valuation-wise, these are pretty academic or overall, it depends on the quality of the business, how fast it grows, how clean the business are and predictively deal of the whole business as a whole. And we take that process in all our acquisitions. So as you can tell from prospecting all the way to analyzing the business, conducting due diligence and executing a deal. It's all very methodical and very structured now. To give everyone kind of a sense of where we are now. So this is a tracker in the lead that we track over the last almost 2 years now of the companies that we need. And for people that follow us would probably notice that the rate of growth of these numbers maybe dropped a little bit, but this is mostly because we have a lot of live deals that's happening, and we are pacing ourselves to ensure that integrations are done properly for all the new companies that we have in the company -- in the group. But I can tell, since the beginning of this effort, we have more than 4,000 companies that we track, were met close to 1,000 companies, and then subsequently presented to our IC, there are about 30-odd companies and then our side. And this is something that we have done before in the past. It's not something new, the approach. So you can see on the screen, these are highly seasoned Board of Directors and management team with extensive experience, not just operating business, but also corporate exercises and M&A overall. And the team has a significant skin in the game to ensure from any shareholder all the way to the directors and management and execution level [indiscernible]. And to give some example, like iCar, the company that was backed by Catcha Group. And over the course of 10 years, the business has grown tremendously value after listing in ASX and typically got acquired by iCar close to MYR 900 million. As for iProperty Group, also a very similar story, albeit a little bit earlier in 2011 after close to 10 years of building the business, this just got acquired for MYR 2.3 billion, creating one of the biggest transaction for tech in Southeast Asia. And today, iProperty is still very much a household name. To give everyone a better context, I'll use one of our existing business as an example, what I mean by platform and add-on acquisitions. So iMedia is a company that we acquired a few years ago. It's a platform acquisition in the media space. And subsequently, we add on a bunch of businesses underneath it to continue growing the business. So Catcha Digital, our media business and iMedia is really a very, very well diverse portfolio of products and services combining to one group, and we did serve the brand owners or companies that have consumers in the mass market, and they come to us and really try to reach and raise awareness for our products and services. And today, you can see, we have an amalgamation of digital publisher brands that we acquired and media format launch, for example, KS Laith KJ, and then we have our own influence margin duties in agency business. We have a new branch of all-to-all businesses broadly between digital home business that we also operate our own screen and also partner with other businesses and also experiential marketing, where we try to tap into the offline activation dollar with our clients as well. So we increase the bit to serve our clients, but also at the same time, extract value from our services and products. At the point of acquisition, this was -- seem to be a 12x key business when the new or structurally the business has improved tremendously. And you can tell based on 2024's result. This is the 5.5x PS grew the business massively after the exercise. These are some of the sources that iMedia and what we call the add-on acquisitions, and you can tell that between 2020 to 2024, the business has improved tremendously under our care. These are some of the stats -- M&A stats that we have to go that the effective in 3, 4 years post acquisition is a super, super healthy overall. Looking ahead, I think from an M&A standpoint, our approach will continue to stay very consistent with what we have seen in the past will continue to look for distributor publishers in horizontals. And can you look for the ones in the vertical that's specific in -- specific industry to expand into. And then from a digital home perspective, we'll continue to build, acquire, convert our partner to -- for more auto businesses that we can expand into that provide synergy to our digital media business. And overall, it's really to broaden our advantage as the one-stop solutions, digital media solutions for all our clients. From a software business perspective, we also remain to -- remain very similar. We won companies as a B2B -- businesses sorry, very predictable businesses that serves a small niche in a large industry, mission-critical, typically asset light and has a strong culture fit to us. So that's kind of the great overview of the company's plan moving forward and then what we've done a little bit in the past and the people behind it. Next, I'm going to quickly touch on the performance for Q2. So as you can see, our year-on-year revenue grew about 67% if you compare Q2 '25 versus Q2 '24. This is basically our largest quarter ever, mostly brought in by -- mostly contributed from a few different factors. So one is we have our annual outdoor lifestyle event that now has go strength to strength. We also have new revenue streams from our completed transactions such as factor digital and basically expo as well. Overall, the PBT increased by more than MYR 1 million. Even though we had a very decent quarter, we continue to stay cautiously optimistic in this uncertain economic environment, and we will continue to stand on our feet to keep adapting and adjusting our business to ensure we stay relevant in a sea of uncertainty right now from a global economic and macroeconomic environment. From a full year financial perspective, I thought this is quite a good, I suppose, a comparison point on the right-hand side. As you can see, we have grown the business quite a bit since 2023. And our first half result is nearly as big as the full year result for our business in 2023 now. So I think many, many, many months, ago when we first started doing our investment briefing, there was a lot of concern around the abnormality in a lot of corporate costs, and you can see that getting normalized over time. Next, I'm going to quickly touch on one of the recent acquisitions that we have announced in the company called One International Exhibition. So this is an exhibition business in the agriculture and construction industry. Typically, it's very similar to many, many exports that we provide a platform for companies to connect and advertise to their -- our ultimate client. We will own 60% of the business post completion that we are expecting very soon. And this will provide us with a strategic entry into a very resilient and high-margin industry. And we have also created a lot of synergies by leveraging on our existing digital media assets to promote the events and then we drive visitor growth. And from a customer and these are all top-tier blue-chip customers, both the exports have attracted more than more than 600 exhibitors from all around the world into very core industries, promoting trade for the country. It is really run by a very seasoned veteran in the space. Roger has been in the space for close to 2 decades. We've spoken to him for almost 2 years and finally have come to terms of how we can partner and grow the business together moving forward. From a deal term standpoint, we will acquire 60%. The founder can stay and retain 40% with [indiscernible] primary tension. The deal is about MYR 11.4 million, about weighted average of 4.92 multiple. And we expect the business to contribute close to MYR 3 million of profit annually for the next 2 years. And the funding matter will be a mix of internal fund equity and debt fund raising. So really, this is a partnership that we're very excited for. It took a while for us to get us here, and we really look forward to growing the business alongside Roger. I think one thing that some of you may have pointed out to me or asked me why is that quite a high profit in 2024? And then there's a drop in year 1 and year 2. And the main reason is really there's a few one-off earnings in 2024 that bumped up the profit overall, but it's not something that we believe will continue to exist in the business. And hence, we take that into account when we are planning for the upcoming -- sorry, the PATAMI expectation for the next 2 years. So it's more of a normalization exercise in this case. So a quick summary on what we have announced so far. So since the last time we spoke on a quarterly briefing, the main addition is One International as a new company we're looking to acquire 60% in. The rest are -- so 5, 6, 7, we have completed the transaction earlier this year and over May and June. So I think this is something new since the last time we spoke. And then Theta and DS and Framemotion is still in the works to get to completion. We have announced the rights issue in a few months ago in April. And we just got [ Basel ] approval over, I think, 2 weeks ago to really go ahead with it and you will see that we have EGM upcoming to approve the exercise. I will just do a quick recap of the overall scheme, although I do want to cover that this is an illustration when it comes to the indicated max gross proceeds. And the reason why I say that is this is a number that moves literally depending on what the final issue price is going to be, but another listing rules we have to indicate on an illustration basis what the maximum is going to look like. When you see the circular, this -- that number may change, but this is purely an illustration. It doesn't indicate anything with regards to whether the right issue is good or bad. It's purely in an illustration. So this is a renounceable rights issue of 1 to 4 with a detachable warrant of 2 to 1. So for every 4 rights -- for every 4 shares that you hold in the company, you would be entitled to 1 rights shares. So that means that we will issue up to 90 million shares. The final issue prices is still to be determined. This will be a discount to the 5-day VWAP prior to the issuance of -- prior to the launch of the rights issue and the fixing of the right price. The minimum proceed will be MYR 11.5 million. So this is locked in pretty much as soon as our shareholders approved, and it will be undertaken by our major shareholder Catcha Group to subscribe to our rights issue. And indicative mix gross proceed here is MYR 25 million. But based on the circular that will go out, you'll see this change and come down a little bit, but this is clearly illustrated. It might go up, it might come down depending on the share price movement over the next couple of weeks. We also have a 2 to 1 detachable warrants for every 1 right shares that you subscribe to. So overall, there will be about 180 million of warrant getting issued as part of this exercise. I think this is all. I think I will open up the floor for Q&A now. So if you have any questions, please feel free to drop it in the comment box, and then we'll address accordingly.

I see only one question. Sorry, there's 2. Okay, there's a Q&A that's chat. Okay, I'll try to address both. Sorry. I thought just saw one question around UBT. So I do a quick search. I think that's a 2 essay hardware securities. No, it's not something that we use. But I do appreciate you bring this to attention. I'm guessing that you bring this up for security reasons. Most of our materials are all on the cloud, and we rely on our cloud providers to provide the securities -- a good cyber solution to us. So for now, we don't have like -- we don't have that. Aside from the warrants, we'll be raising that for M&A plans? If yes, how much? We will be raising debt. We are locking in with one of our -- one of the banks in Malaysia. We are looking at about $35 million in revolving credit facilities for us to acquire a company. So it's very close to finalization. I just realized there's a Q&A section, actually. I'm not sure if everyone can see it. I'm not sure this anonymous. If you guys could see the Q&A, please let me know. So I'll just read out the question. So Lim asked, what -- how long is a warrant? 3 or 5 years? So this will be a 5-year warrant. Target date of completion, acquisition date for the other 5 acquisitions. So for most of them, say, for the 7 acquisitions that we have announced, 3 are already completed. Maybe I'll just go back to the slide. 3 already completed. 5, 6, 7 is already completed. I think 1 to 4 in the upcoming 2 -- well, 2 to 4 will be likely for quarter 4, and then because we have to wait for the right issue. And then for 1, we will likely complete in this coming Q3. Let me see the questions. How can company ensures that integration post M&A runs well for every acquired company? This is a more complex question, but I'll speak in the 2 parts, how we manage that. So I think step 1 is to identify companies that fits our culture and have the right kind of mindset in doing businesses so that we -- so that we can integrate them into our business well. So this is a selection process of finding good quality companies with the right management in place that fits our philosophy of running business. So that's step 1. And step 2, when it comes to integration, there are a few angles. So I think I will split it into one from a governance standpoint, and then two from an operating standpoint. So from a governance standpoint, we tend to have to help the company to "level up" a little bit from a reporting standpoint because a lot of these companies we look at are in the private sector, and they may not be subjected to as close kind of monitoring or scrutiny by the public hands. We tend to have to help them with the conversion into a MFRS standard first from a finance standpoint, and then work with them on the processes to upgrade their reporting prior to completion. So we try to do as much of this homework as possible to get them ready for the journey to become part of our subsidiaries. So that's one from a pre-transaction perspective. Now once we -- and another thing that we try to plan to hit as much as we can, especially where the add-on acquisitions is from an operations standpoint, how do we upgrade both the front office and back office. So for example, if there's integration in sales, we would have interviewed the relevant sales people and decide beforehand if this person can be absorbed or should be absorbed. And then subsequently, plans will be moved accordingly based on the quality of the talent. So that's more on the front office standpoint. In some cases, we also take over the back office for the companies that we acquired. So when I say back office it's mostly HR finance and admin finance, chief of which is the more complex operations, and we try to have a smooth transition over to so that we don't have any reporting challenges moving forward. Let's say, every acquisition will come with different challenges when it comes to integration. But our key is that, back to my first point, finding the right partner is the most important thing because in most of our acquisitions, the existing management team or existing partners continue to run the business. Hence, the most important part is to find the right partner, and we place a lot of emphasis on that. So if there's any issues post acquisitions when it comes to integration, at least, we know now these are good partners that we can figure out. So we have a few anonymous question. So one is how -- what's the company outlook. The industry seems quite cyclical. So I'll address these questions with 2 kind of perspective. So I'm not sure if cyclical is the right word to describe the business, but definitely there's an element of seasonality during the year for our digital media business. Because of the specific seasons, brands tend to spend a little bit more. When there is not then they tend to spend less. So you will see, hence, typically when we compare the results compare against year-on-year-on-quarterly basis rather than preceding quarter versus the current quarter. So there's an element of that, for sure. Overall -- sorry, and then the second business that we have is software, and these are generally fairly stable business. And the cyclicality from a revenue or financial standpoint, generally would come from a form of projects in -- mostly an accounting recognition. But overall, as a business, it's fairly stable annually. For outlook for the 2 industries, I think media, we will always [indiscernible] the economy, right? So when the economy does well, we generally do well. And when the economy aren't doing well, then we have to be a bit more careful. And this is just, I suppose, most businesses would have this sort of characteristics. And while business is doing well, as I mentioned earlier, what would -- while the business is doing well, we -- for this quarter, we are still very cautious around how we think about whether the road ahead is very straightforward or it might come with a lot more answer. Something that we can't predict at the moment, given how things are moving very quickly from an economic -- a global macroeconomic standpoint. So we just have to stay close to our feet, stay close to the ground and then adapt according to customers' demand. So ultimately, we are guided by our customers and we have set up a structure such that we can adapt to changes as quickly as possible for an organization of our size. For the DS acquisition as a big gap between existing and expected [indiscernible] is this achievable? I think you are referring to DS. So I think there is a kind of accounting gap. So a lot of private companies have slightly different accounting process, and it's not all controlled by one company. So hence, there's a little bit of gap from that perspective if you're trying to add up these businesses. So it's a lagging factor, and the fact that it's not like properly consolidated a lot. So is this achievable? I think this is something that we have looked at it, and we think it should be okay. But we are going to pay a very close attention to the business before we integrate them into our group. When will Catcha go out of Malaysia? Any target? Right now, we are actively exploring opportunities, but I think I've said that every single time we talk, but the ultimate premise is that, before we head out to -- outside of Malaysia, quite actively, we will make sure that -- we'll make sure that our core foundation in our home base in Malaysia is strong first. Hence, we are not desperate, looking for opportunities overseas. So we are kind of looking around. And if there's good opportunities, we will embark on those. So I guess the summary is that I can't tell you when we will go out of Malaysia. Yes, we are looking at some companies, but no, we not in a hurry. This is not a Tier 1 priority in the near term for us. We want to focus on building our core business well and make sure we have a solid foundation in Malaysia before we actively seek out for opportunities outside Malaysia. That's said, one of our businesses that were in the process of completing in the coming cost data has presence globally in almost every continent. So that in that sense, we are going to be out of Malaysia, except the business is still very much home based on Malaysia, except revenue coming from all around the world. So that is, I guess, a slight one in that. I saw there is some -- another question. What is the projected time line for each of this acquisition to get back the capital and the capital invested? Recently quarterly results, how much was contributed from D&D and [indiscernible]? So from a timing perspective, I think we don't look at it from a -- how much should we -- how much does the payback period in that sense? I think we don't look at it from that angle. We look at it from the -- in term of return perspective. But to kind of simplify it, if you think about it, a 5-year -- so 50% basically implies like 20% basically price at it's sort of like a 5-year return to kind of simplify it. And the contribution from D2D and Tastefully, we are not separating the disclosure. What I can say is that they perform according to our expectation. And in the future, if we feel like it's meaningful to separate it out in our reporting, then we will do that. Right now, we don't think that's the right time, and we just recently integrated the business. I want to make sure that, one, it's meaningful for us to see it out and to the business as properly being integrated and when normalized in the operations before we decide if you want to separate out the disclosure. But what I can say is that it's performing up to our expectation. Will there be more acquisitions in the foreseeable months or years? Or is there enough on the plate to focus on? So there will be more acquisitions coming up. I don't think we plan to stop completely doing that. But I think you will see the pace of us doing it may slow down a little bit mostly to focus on making sure we integrate existing acquisitions properly first. So the short answer is, yes, there will be more. But from a velocity standpoint, it may slow down a little bit. so that we make sure the business that we have acquired get integrated and perform well first so that we don't chew more than what we can manage. Sharing a learning. Just for info, hacker steal my cookie from PC, then my PC force log out. Luckily, I still awake and kick hacker device out. Else, all digital gone. thanks for sharing. We'll take a look. So the justification for rights issue and private placement solely on these massive acquisitions? I would say primarily, we do the rights issue is to fund these acquisitions, yes. I think we will -- in our utilization table, there are some allocated to working capital, and this would be for some of the new experiments that we are launching for opportunity. But by and large, it's mostly for acquisitions. So there was one question in the Q&A but I'm struggling to get back to the Q&A part. Okay. Got it. I'm in. From a company perspective, we're using inorganic growth in a sustainable upgrading business because company also paid a certain premium to acquire companies seems like value creation from PEs related already in the short term. I think I will look at it from our perspective. There are organic way of growing and there are inorganic way of growing. I think just because we seem to be very acquisitive relative to -- relative to all other public companies does not mean that we don't grow our organic businesses. So we're still very much focused on making sure our businesses that we acquired continue to deliver well. We look at M&A as another growth channel to supercharge our existing business and also for us to get into new categories that is the -- that exhibit good business fundamentals. So as such that we don't buy anything under the sun, we think that -- we think has performed and will continue to perform well. We've got a good team in place and have a very strict process to conduct M&A. For every 100 companies, we only acquire 0.8 of them. So there's a real lengthy process of assessing the company, conducting due diligence to make sure that we buy a good company. So that's one. From a pricing perspective, we take a lot longer view, right, from a pricing perspective because we are not trying to optimize for an exit. So you tend to see us paying a pretty fair price, I think, for both parties to make sure that not only do we get a good deal, but the seller also get financially rewarded from us. From a value creation perspective, this varies a little bit. So for companies that we enable as -- only tend to have a bit more value-add angle. For platform companies that we acquired that we don't plan to aggressively acquire other add-on, we just have to expect the business to grow a lot better. So it really depends on our view on organic opportunity of the business and the inorganic opportunity of the business. So this -- our view is that combining both organic and inorganic growth is the most sustainable way of building businesses. So it's both rather than one or the other. I suppose acquisition gets a lot more headline shout out simply because we have to announce it. And there's sort of exciting organic stuff that we don't actively announce them. So the time line for rights issue and placement. So rights issue, I think the EGM circular will go out today. We are calling EGM in mid-September -- 18 September actually. I think the notice has gone out. And we are targeting around 2, 3 months from -- on the EGM for the complete -- for RSU to be completed. As for private placement, we may or may not depending on how our rights issue perform. So this really depends on this for us to get an upfront approval. In the event that we need to call on a private placement to raise money, then we may use it. But that one is to get our rights issue done properly. Jason asked a very good question actually. So recently acquired One in PE around 6 and acquired Tastefully around 8. Both is in exhibition. Is it current tough time for businesses good for us to bargaining for a better price to acquire? So kind of yes and no. So as you probably can tell, like quite a lot of valuation of business runs around a little bit. And all of you are public market investors that understand acquisitions is both an R and [indiscernible] in times where you look at the business fundamentals and also looking at what the market is doing, right? So when it comes to valuing the business, we take a very intrinsic approach to value based on DCF, right. So ultimately, this is how fast the company is growing or how fast we think the company is growing and then work backwards on what we think is the right price and then adjust from that. So that's a "assigned" part. And that's a part where then we have to negotiate with the vendors, and this will move a little bit depending on your positioning in the market. In some particular industry, the company may be the market leader, and we think it's harder for someone to come in, then this company will get a premium to be the market leader, an undisputed market leader. In some companies, the financials are a lot more hygienic, less cleanup required, then we will reward a slightly higher valuation. So overall, I think when it comes to acquisition, even though some companies are in the same industry, there are some nuances around why a certain company is valued more. And really, it's a combination of all these factors. Some are more methodical or scientific and some are a little bit more abstract, and depending on the negotiation window. So I can't say that currently, it's tough times for business. So it's good for us to bargain for a better price because I think price discovery works a little bit differently in the private market rather than public market and stocks. But in any case, our approach will continue to stay consistent. It's all about our view of the business moving forward, and then we work backwards, and then we negotiate with the seller on the price that the seller thinks is fair and on the price that we think it's fair. And the sometimes will run around a little bit. But the ultimate guide is 20% IRR and both, right? So you may see 6x or 8x or 9x or 12x, but you're all poised now to what we think the business is going to do in the next 10 years. For rights issue, please arrange a registrar with e rights issues and [indiscernible] for investors. Noted on that. I believe like the last time you rights issue we had the rights. So should be okay, but we'll keep noted. I saw that as another question. So will there be more rights issue or kind in the future? So there's no existing plan to have another rights issue because we need reasons to conduct rights issue. We can't just simply call for rights issue to raise a lot of money. So we will need to have a justification around that. And in our case, likely big huge acquisitions in the future. So I can't really tell you that. But we will constantly assess as we go the rights funding mechanism, combining the cash flow that is generated by the operating businesses for existing and new companies. What are the debt available in the market? What's the share price that informs whether we do an equity or debt fund raising. So there may be more fundraising activity. If I take a 5-year view in the future, there may be, but there may be not because we also have warrants that we will issue to the market. And there will also be a cash inflow from the exercise moment. So right now, I can't really tell you whether there will be a rights issue of sort in the near future. But if there are good opportunities that requires fundraising, then we were at that point of time decide what is the most efficient way of raising this capital, whether it's an internal fund or equity, new equity or from financing, from debt financing. Kevin Christopher asked, what are your reinvestment plans once acquisitions are made? Do you get the company acquired to pay Catcha Digital a dividend? Get the company acquired to invest and grow its own business organically? Or make acquisitions through the acquired company? Actually, the answer is a little bit more nuanced, and that it's a little bit of 1, 2 and 3. So typically, when we acquire a business, we will agree, on a high level broadly, what's the dividend policy every single year. So we can get a bit better clarity on the cash flow up to the holdco. And then when it comes to the holdco cash, so when we have the money, then there's mainly 2 ways to think of how we utilize it. So one is do we want to reinvest them into acquisitions? Or do we reinvest in maybe internal CapEx to grow some of our businesses? And to answer the question, it typically depends on which one provides a better return on investment. So we will run a very similar IRR model on other new projects. If you saw on acquisitions and then compare against it. Right now, simply because of how we run the business, you will see us investing a lot more of our free cash into acquisitions rather than a huge CapEx. And this is a function of the industry that we're in. We intend not to need to spend a lot of CapEx for new ideas and generally a bit more asset light with the exception of digital out-of-home. So this is a, I guess, nature of the industry. And then the third point is on making more acquisitions through the acquired companies. So this is an example of iMedia. So at the point of acquisitions, we knew that it's going to be a buy-build approach. So a lot of this cash that we raised were dedicated back to growing via acquisitions. But this decision is centrally made right at the holding company, like [indiscernible] level. So we assess it against the opportunity cost of whether we should go into opportunity A, B or C. So to sum it up, we do all of this. But from a company organization standpoint, we tend to invest more into acquisitions rather than any CapEx organic opportunity simply because of the nature of business that we have. And we -- where possible, we will encourage our portal companies to do more acquisitions, but it's only where it makes sense and where the management thinks it's the right thing to do for the business. And we tend to support these acquisitions from an HQ level so that the team does not have to worry about doing deals and then also running the business at the same time. Alan asked, what, when, how AI have positive or negative impact to Catcha? I think right now, I would say, is neutral. And this neutral comes from like what I think is positive. And also what I think is negative to the industry as a whole. So from a cost perspective, I think AI is very good in helping us be more efficient, simply because a lot of the grunt work that used to be done by human being now can be done by an AI. So that really helps relieve a lot of cost. What I suppose is a bit more uncertain is from a revenue standpoint that we still continue observing how AI may or may not affect our business simply because part of the business that we have realized traffic from other big platforms, right? And it performs getting affected by AI in general, both positive or negative direction. And this may have positive or negative impact on our traffic, and hence, our ability to monetize our traffic. So from a cost standpoint, I think it's basically a good thing. I don't doubt that. From a revenue standpoint, in the short term, we're going to see much negative direct impact as a result of AI. But we have to pay very close attention at that our business model accordingly, so that we don't get the structure and obsolete. So this is a very long-winded way of saying, I can tell you I think there's not much negative impact at the moment. But for the future, I think we will need to continue to adapt and adjust accordingly given how fast this is developing. So that's that on AI. Jason asked, any M&A budget for 2025 and 2026? So we don't publicly share this number because really it depends on what opportunities are out there that is right for us. So unlike a private equity fund that would have raised committed limited partners' capital that has a fund life to deploy only tend to raise a certain amount that you need to deploy within 3 to 5 years and exit in 7 years, we don't have any of that. Our horizon is very long. We were -- in very long term, we don't have exit horizon for the companies that we acquire. Hence, we don't really set an M&A budget. How we typically approach it is we focus on finding good quality companies first and then plan on our funding accordingly, depending on the circumstances and the nature of the business and the market condition at the time. So I think that's how we are looking at it at the moment. So we don't try to reverse and set a budget that we must meet, but more of companies, good quality companies that can improve the group's financial overall, that's how we think about it. So we don't force M&A. If there's no good deal -- there's no good deals or no right deals, we just don't do anything. But right now, I think the market is very -- if we see a lot of good opportunities, and our focus is to execute these deals that's right in front of us and make sure that they continue to perform as they have in the past. All right. I think this is all the time that we have. There are a lot of very good, some are quite tough questions. And thanks for taking your time to join us. As usual, my e-mail is available everywhere at catchadigital.com. If you have any further questions that didn't manage to ask, please let me know. And as usual, thanks for the support, and I'll see you guys in the next call or in the next shareholders' meeting. Thank you very much.