Cegedim SA (ALCGM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

So thanks a lot for attending this presentation. We will show you the full year 2024 revenue and Q4 revenue for Cegedim. So the full year revenue was EUR 654.5 million for Cegedim. It's a 6.3% growth reported. It is worth noting that all the divisions contributed to this annual growth. On a like-for-like basis, the growth was 4.7%. Also on Q4, we generated EUR 178.7 million, which is a 7.2% growth reported and 5.9% like-for-like growth. And it's also worth noting that all the divisions contributed to the reported and like-for-like growth in Q4. It's especially interesting to see that this Q4 was -- had the same growth as Q1. when in Q1, we had the Allianz contract effect. So it's been a very good Q4. Also during this year, most of you have followed us, and you remember that we acquired Visiodent in February. Also in December, we decided to voluntary place in practice system under administration. These are the 2 main significant events for the scope for the revenue in 2024. So as I mentioned just previously, the Q4 revenue was EUR 178.7 million. It's mainly like-for-like growth, 5.9%, a slight structural impact due to integration, mainly to the integration of Visiodent this year and also a slight currency impact. You can see that all the divisions contributed to the growth with more than 5% growth on Q4, resulting in this EUR 178.7 million revenue in Q4. And for the full year, as we saw before, the like-for-like growth was 4.7%. The structure impact is mainly due to the integration of Visiodent also and also a favorable currency impact due to the appreciation of the sterling pound. All the divisions contributed to the reported annual growth. So it's a 6.3% reported growth. And then we'll deep dive into all of the division and see that like-for-like, the growth was a bit different compared with the reported growth. So let's start with our first division, the Software and Services division. So the revenue generated this year was EUR 307.8 million. It's a 1.8% reported growth. It's a decrease of 1.2% like-for-like, that you can see now that we have 3 subdivisions you know about. So you have Cegedim Sante. So you can see a difference between the reported growth and the like-for-like growth. So the reported growth was 4.8% at Cegedim Sante, thanks to the integration of Visiodent this year and the slowdown of 7.1% is mainly due to the Cegedim Sante impact. As most of you remember, we had sales of EUR 5 million generated by the subvention in 2023 -- subsidies, sorry, in 2023 that negatively affected the like-for-like growth in 2024. If you were to retreat from that, then Cegedim Sante would have had like-for-like growth. The second subdivision, which is insurance, HR, pharmacies and other activities reported a 2% growth, 1.9% like-for-like. Inside the subdivisions, we have various performances. Insurance and HR software performed very well this year. For the pharmacist, pharmacy software in France, it was a bit more difficult this year for 2 main reasons that we already elaborated about. Last year, pharmacist also had the [ Cegedim ] Sante for EUR 2 million, which we did not have this year. So it impacted negatively for the pharmacy software. Also at the pharmacist and like our competitors, we noticed that the equipment sales were lower this year. But the reason that in 2023, with the [ Cegedim ] Sante and the update of the software, pharmacists had to change the equipments. And so that we have a negative comparison effect also on this one for this year. All in, the subdivision, so it's a growth of 2%, 1.9% like-for-like. International activities. So the decline in 3% reported and like-for-like is mainly due to the U.K. physician software -- software for physicians, sorry. We remember that at the beginning of the year, we decided to refocus our in-practice systems subsidiary on the Scottish market, taking the decision to leave England and Northern Ireland and Wales. And by the end of the year, on December 10, we decided to voluntarily place it under administration. So you can see that also in December, we had only 9 days of business compared to 20 days. So it impacted also negatively. The U.K. pharmacist and software and insurance were pretty good. And also, we had a good momentum in Spain and Romania. So international activities was, as I've mentioned before, mainly impacted by our decision on the U.K. physician software this year. On the second half, maybe just I forgot to mention that in Q4, we generated EUR 80.1 million, 5.9% reported and a positive also like-for-like growth, showing that Q4 was way better than the previous quarters. Our second division, the Flow division enjoyed a very good year. We generated EUR 100.3 million with this division. It's a 7.3% growth reported, 7.2% like-for-like. On the fourth quarter, the growth was 12% reported, 11.7% like-for-like at EUR 27 million, also the best quarter of the year. As you know, and as you can see also, this division has 2 subsegments. The e-business division, sorry, experienced growth in its 2 segments, the first one being invoicing and purchasing and the second one is healthcare flow. It's worth noting that, as some of you know, the French regulation about the digitization of invoicing was postponed to 2026. Even though we were able to experience some growth, less than expected, but some growth too. So it was very good. And also on the health care flow, our offering for the hospital performed very well this year. On the second subdivision, the third-party payer division activity, we experienced very strong growth of 9.9% this year, and which is mainly due to a strong growth in demand for its fraud and long-term illness detection offerings that boosted the growth this year. Overall, the Flow division experienced a solid growth of 7.3% reported 7.2% like-for-like. The subdivision is Data & Marketing. As you can see, the division was able to report a 9.6% growth this year, generating a revenue of EUR 125.9 million. And on Q4, was able to generate EUR 38.4 million, a 7.1% growth reported and like-for-like. So there are 2 subdivisions, which experienced different growth this year. First, the data business experienced a growth of 1.6% this year. The first and second half growth was way better than first half. We were able to adapt to our customer demand and generate this growth, especially in France. On the marketing side, we had a very stellar growth of 19.9%, sorry, reported and like-for-like. which validates the sound digital strategy of the division. And also, it was bolstered by special ad campaigns during the Olympic Games, which were -- enabled us to post this very strong growth. So all in, for the Data & Marketing division, the growth was 9.6% this year, sorry. On the BPO division, we were able to generate EUR 82.7 million, a 15.8% growth reported on like-for-like. On Q4, it was EUR 21.2 million, 7.8% growth reported in like-for-like. So as I mentioned earlier, we have the insurance BPO, which benefited from a comparison effect on the first quarter due to the starting of the Allianz contract on April 1, 2023. And so it allowed us to generate a 20.2% growth in '24 in the insurance BPO. And on the second division of the BPO is the Business Services BPO, which is boosted by compliance offering and the acquisition also of new customer, and it generated a growth of 5.5% this year. Overall, it's a growth of 15.8% for the year on the BPO division. The fifth division is Cloud and Support. So it generated EUR 37.8 million this year, 11.3% reported and like-for-like. It has been a very good growth this year. It's due to the broad range of services backed on its sovereign cloud. I think it's worth noting that also at the end of the year, it earned the ANSSI security visa for SecNumCloud certification. As you know, the -- maybe you don't know, but the ANSSI is the National Agency for information system security. So we believe it will be a plus in the years to come for the sovereign cloud solution offered by the Cloud & Support division. Also -- so that was the 5 division sales and revenues for the year and the quarter -- last quarter. So we stick to our guidance regarding the recurring operating income that we expect to increase on the full year basis. And these are the next steps we'll have. So on March 27, we have the full year results. On the 28th, we'll have this SFAF meeting. And first quarter will be in April '24 Shareholder General Meeting on June 13. And then after in July, the first half and in September, the first half results.

So thank you for listening to us. And now we are open to the questions that you may have. Please raise your hand on the side, and I can give you the floor or by chat if you can. So I think, Gabriel, you have a question. I'm giving -- I'm leaving you the floor. Gabriel? Gabriel, I think you can talk but I can't hear you. Gabriel? Okay. So meanwhile, maybe you have a problem with your microphone. Okay. I'm going to try with Amadou.

Thank you. Can you hear me?

Yes, we can hear you. Gabriel will talk with you later. Sorry. Yes, Amadou, please go on.

So you mentioned that [ E&PS ] is under voluntary insolvency. But you mentioned that you are only leaving Wales and England. I'm wondering about Scotland. So you were the, I think, sole operator for the pharmacy business there. Can we expect that you kept Scotland? And afterwards, another one for me, please.

No. So to your question, sorry, Amadou. No, we don't expect us to stay in Scotland. It's the whole subsidiary in practice system, which is under administration. So it means that we won't stay in any geography for the U.K. physician software.

Right. A follow-up to this. Then because of the loss of your pharmacy revenue, are you expecting downward pressure on your data business?

Pierre, do you want to answer to this one?

In the U.K. or in France?

In the U.K.

So in fact, in the U.K., the data we are collecting are collecting not from pharmacists, but from doctors. Since we are going to stop all our software businesses for doctors, we have signed contracts with the competitors. The main competitors is EMIS. EMIS is the leader in the U.K. for software doctors. So we are -- we will go on the data business in the U.K., thanks to the fact that we have a specific contract with this company, EMIS. Have I answered the question? Yes.

Yes, okay.

I've seen some questions about the effect of the in-practice system [ stop. ] So the losses -- if we compute the losses of this company and if we take the fact that we had some common services between the software for doctors and the software for pharmacists, we can expect for next year free cash flow and EBIT of plus EUR 5 million, meaning that we are going to save, I don't know how to say it exactly to save EUR 5 million loss. Is my answer clear?

Absolutely, very satisfactory. And one last one, and then I'm leaving the floor to others. You maybe like to give us some indication about current headcount. Are you still increasing it sharply? Or are you lowering your effort here?

No, we are really focused on the fact that we are not going to increase headcount. And in fact, due to the in-practice system bankruptcy, the headcounts are going to stay flat or to decrease. But we will have the same kind of effect on the revenues because we start the 2025 year somehow with minus EUR 14 million in terms of revenue. So the growth for 2025 will be very low due to the fact that we are starting almost with minus 2% due to this -- in practice system stop.

Gabriel, I think you solved your problem with your mic, so please I think you can talk.

Yes. Can you hear me?

Yes, perfect.

Yes, perfect. Yes. Just 2 questions on my side. The first one is can you give us more color on the top line for 2025, if we can expect like 5% or a range...

No.

No. No?

If -- depending in like for -- I mean we will publish probably a revenue of plus 1% or plus 2%.

Okay. In organic -- excluding...

Yes. So if we exclude the practice system, then we will be at plus 5%.

Okay. Okay.

So plus 5%, minus 2% is probably the maximum we can have...

Okay. Okay. And can you give us a range for EBIT margin in 2024?

Well -- we are still on what we said a few months before. So we will not reach the level in terms of absolute value. We will not reach the amount we had before COVID, but we are in the middle between...

Like 6% or so, something like that in EBIT margin?

Yes. Okay. A bit less. No, it will be lesser than 6%, hopefully let me...

No, it's just like a 20 bps or something like that, a range like that.

It could be more 5.5%, around. We will have an effect, the impact system bankruptcy will have an effect on the accounts, but it will be nonrecurring costs and noncash costs.

Okay. Eric, the floor is yours.

I want to make it clear. In fact, you say that the business you are leading is EUR 14 million in 2024. The loss is EUR 5 million.

Now in fact, the loss is a bit bigger than that. But the fact that we are cutting an existing organization. Part of the loss will be transferred to the Cegedim Rx business, which is software for pharmacists. So Cegedim Rx will next year become loss-making due to this cutting of the organization.

And what is the amount transferred to Cegedim Rx [indiscernible]?

It will be not far from EUR 2 million.

EUR 2 million. Okay. Just in terms of consolidation, you are not taking this business as a discontinued business.

No, no, no. So it will be in the accounts until December 9.

So your 5.5% EBIT margin is with this loss.

Yes, yes.

Okay. So when we speak about 2025, we have -- we let this loss out, and we have a growth of 5% if we don't take in account the EUR 14 million of sales. That's right?

Yes, we will say EUR 5 million due to the fact that in practice won't be in the accounts anymore, and we have not the sales never in 2025, yes.

But we have Cegedim Rx becoming a loss?

Yes. But it's true that we are going to save EUR 5 million losses compared to the '24 year.

In consolidated, it's EUR [ 5 ] million that's a net amount.

Yes, exactly.

Okay, including the loss of [indiscernible]?

Yes, including that.

Okay. So that -- and that means that the growth we can have in 2025, the growth of the business of BPO -- in terms of profitability, I mean.

In terms of profits...

Because BPO is coming on stream. It's taking...

It's a bit less -- yes, it might be better. But remember that on the Allianz contract, the 3 first years are loss-making. So I would say that it's 2026 that we should see a big improvement into the PPO, profits...

It's more 2026?

Yes. Because next year, it will improve. It will be better, but will not be -- Allianz will be still loss-making. Allianz is losing the Allianz contract is almost EUR 1 million loss per quarter.

Still today, 2020 -- it's 1,000 per quarter?

But it is exactly in the business we had negotiated with the client.

And you think that it could be breakeven in 2025. No, it's too early?

End of '25, it will become profitable.

And I don't want to ask too many questions, but I have some delicate question. I have seen that some people have bought stock shares at the end of the year. Can you tell us a little more about what happened with...

So we have created a company, which -- the name of it is [indiscernible]. And it's -- how do we say in English? It's a company of 25 managers -- and we are -- it's a level operation. So the 25 people has put EUR 1.2 million in the capital and the family office, Labrune family office, we will make a loan of EUR 1.2 million. So we are going to -- we are on the way because we have started to create -- to buy and to have EUR 2.4 million portfolio of Cegedim shares. And the expectation is that the share price will grow until end of 2030.

And there is -- it's done right now...

This company exists. If you go on the sites like papers or associated, you can see the list that you...

I mean the operation of buying the stock is done?

No, no, it's not finished. It's -- part of it is done. But of course, we have some periods where we are not allowed to buy anything. So that's the reason why everything is not bought. On the top of that, the family, Labrune family is also trying to buy shares.

We can have an idea of the total amount. I did not compute the total amount of shares bought by the holding of Jean-Claude Labrune. On the year 2024, it's -- you can have -- you have an idea of the amount of shares bought or no?

The total amount in euros is about EUR 3 million. I don't have the total amount of shares in itself. I can tell you just later on.

[indiscernible] holding...

Yes. I think it's like 4% of the capital -- of the total capital of Cegedim, I think like that.

Yes, it's been opportunistic. We had some questions on the chat. I think we answered most of them regarding the focus on the profitability of the group. So as you understood that the operation within practice system is part of this strategy. And you -- some of you asked whether we're going to focus on efficiency. So as Pierre mentioned earlier, yes, we're going to focus on efficiency and margin for 2025.

There is a question about is Smart Rx, the unique company loss-making? Unfortunately, no, because Cegedim Rx in the U.K. will be loss-making in 2025 due to the in-practice bankruptcy. And we are focused on the Data International business, which is loss-making and that we think that at the end of 2025, it should be profitable, but only at the end of 2025.

And we can have an idea of the amount of the loss of...

Data international, no, it's more -- it's a small amount., it's small amount, it's EUR 2 million. Well, it's not that small, but it's going to be improved.

It's EUR 2 million loss for Data International.

Yes.

It's EUR 2 million also for Cegedim Rx England?

Yes.

And it's more for Cegedim Rx front?

Yes, Cegedim Rx, we will work a lot on the plan to reduce this loss.

And we can say how much for 2024?

It's too early because we are preparing a plan. We cannot say...

Globally, I have seen that Cegedim target of the growth in the comment. In fact, if we exclude England, Cegedim Sante get the target of growth you forecast?

You mean Cegedim Sante, England...

Cegedim group.

The group Cegedim, yes, the organic decrease in sales at in practice System is about this little gap between the 4.7% like-for-like growth and the 5% we had mentioned earlier.

Yes. And in terms of profitability, it could be a little better because you have less loss on the end of the -- in terms of operating profit, you have less loss on December.

Yes. On 2 weeks.

Yes. And marketing is doing well. So I think it's quite good for profitability.

Yes. Yes.

Okay.

The thing is, as you have seen probably on the result at the end of the first semester, we are -- we have reduced the duration of amortization of our R&D. So in the past, we had a big gap between the amount of R&D capitalized and the amortization, okay? And this is really reduced. So on the EBIT -- what you say is that we should have a much better result. It is compensated by this effect. That is to say that EBITDA is going to be -- to have a growth bigger than EBIT. Just due to this accounting effect on the fact that we have amortization of R&D, which is growing much more than the growth of the group.

I think, Mark, you had some questions. So the floor is yours. Thank you very much.

It's going to be very interesting to read the results when you do publish them because there seem to be a lot of moving parts again this year. Just to try and understand on the U.K. Can you describe what's left in the U.K. in terms of pharmacy Rx, et cetera? What is the run rate sales? I understood this EUR 14 million is what's stopping. I understand as well, we're going to go from a small profit to a EUR 2 million loss adopting part of the cost base of the doctors. But could you do a quick description of what is left in the U.K. when Scotland will be fully exited for the doctor software? And what is the path to profitability of the U.K., i.e., the cost base that's been inherited from the bits that you're exiting, when will that be turned around to profitability for the rest of the U.K. operation?

So in the U.K., we have Activus. Activus is the company which is providing software systems to insurance company. This is profitable. We have Net EDI, which is a company which has businesses in the dematerialization area. This is profitable. And then we will have Cegedim Rx, which will become loss-making next year. Overall, this will be EUR 35 million revenue. Damien, do you have the figures exactly?

Yes. The pharmacist and the Activus, yes.

Do you have the amount of Activus?

I don't know if we give it. Do we?

But the idea of the size of each part is -- the main part is Cegedim Rx or...

And then just to understand the path of profitability of Rx. In other words, you've inherited this extra cost base on a business that was slightly profitable. What is the outlook for Rx in the U.K.

We are going to make some restructuration and some organization -- reorganization in order to make the company in a profitable situation. But probably for the year '26 because today, we are really working a lot with the administrator for in-practice system, and we will manage the Cegedim Rx situation afterwards. Today, we have seen that some companies in the U.K. are going to make some proposal to the administrator to buy or to go on with the business software for doctors, specifically for Scotland because in Scotland, 50% of the doctors are using our software. And so we think that there will be some solution for this business to go on. I don't know what will be the financial conditions for it. But -- and so we are answering a lot of questions, and we are working a lot with the administration and the NHS in order to be sure that -- well, those doctors will go on using their software.

And with that high market share, does that mean that business in Scotland is profitable? -- sorry, or I would rephrase that actually would have a positive -- purchased by competitors.

Well, it could be possible that they may offer some value. For us, it was not profitable because the competition we made that it would be profitable once we would have almost all the market. As you may remember, the competitor, EMIS in Scotland was not referenced by the NHS. So we were the unique player having the authorization to -- for doctors in Scotland. The problem is that to change software for doctors is not that easy. So although the NHS wanted us to be the unique player, it was very difficult to have those transfer from EMIS to our software. And that's the reason why we thought we came to the conclusion that we will not be able to become profitable on the short term. That's the reason why we have decided to put the company under administration.

Okay. That's very clear. And so I can understand that in the U.K., you're going to become profitable for Rx, as you said, in 2026. And the 2 other businesses are already profitable. So U.K. will be profitable in -- overall in 2026.

Yes. Yes..

And final question on the U.K., can you just remind us the total negative cash and noncash impact on the P&L of exiting the U.K. in 2004 and 2025?

It's a noncash, nonrecurring costs, noncash and it would be more than EUR 20 million. Meaning that probably the net profit of the Cegedim group will be not far from 0. We have -- there is a question about CompuGroup and the fact that a lot of companies are selling their business to private equity, et cetera. So the -- just what I can say, it is -- that it is not at all in the mind of the Labrune family today to make such operation.

That answer many questions that you have. We understand you're asking those questions, for sure. There have been a question on whether we will launch Maiia for doctors in France, and whether we would offer it throughout Europe. So we can say that we launched Maiia in France, but not -- the plan is not to get throughout in Europe. we stick to our geographies for the moment.

The Maiia, our objective or our target is that -- okay. Maiia is for to -- is a sweet...

Software, I guess.

So it managed agenda but it also manages the practice -- the practice of the doctors, the practice of the nurse, of the chemotherapist physiotherapist. It's not going to go outside France.

I hope it answers your question, Benedict, indication for revenue, we saw that. And a remark from Diego Salvador that want us to, at some point, give some more information on strategic update. I can tell you that on the SFAF meeting that we have for the annual results, usually on the next day of the results, we elaborate a bit more on the various divisions. Also, we take good note of this wheel, and we will organize most probably an Investor Day or something by the end of the year. And I think I'm just going through all the questions. Last question, if not selling the business is an option, how will you create shareholder value? I guess we create it through a focus on margin and cash flow generation. This is the main point that will be the focus for the next years.

Yes. Cost cutting and improving the EBIT margin.

Okay. Mark, I think you have a last question. You can talk, Mark, I think you raised your hand. I don't know if it's something.

Well, I firstly wanted to put my both hands together and applause you for saying that your focus is -- that's very good. And that was a positive reaction. But my question I was -- I really wanted to ask is, can you just remind us what's happening to the balance sheet in 2024? It seems that debt picked up a little bit in the first half of the year, if I remember well. What should we expect in the second half? And what are the trends we're likely to see in the year 2025?

You want to elaborate on the balance sheet? Maybe we'll see it at the results. We had -- so we had the debt renewal in July. you have anything you want to indicate, Pierre, but I think we'll see it on the full year results. We'll have the details...

I just wanted to have a rough idea, not in the individual parts of the gross debt, but globally together, the net debt level seems to have picked up. Do we see that continuing in the second half of the year? And what's likely to happen in 2025?

No, no, we have the net debt has decreased during the second half. It is always the same because second half is always much better in terms of profits, but first half. So there are no indication on the fact that it should be worse. And next year, since we are focused on improving the profits. We are on the way to reduce our debt progressively for the next year. So no problem on the debt side.

So I think we went through all the questions you had, whether you would raise your hand or put it on the chat. I would like to give 5 seconds if you have one last question. Well, I think we -- Eric, final question.

2024, you have free cash flow for the full year or not?

It's too early to say.

We will tell you. We have…

Because the main impact...

We have acquired Visiodent and, you see and then we have this bankruptcy of interactive system to -- we have no cash problem, but to -- what will be the exact results of the Tableau 3.

Cash flow statement?

Cash flow statement. It's far to relief for us to say.

Now in fact, my question is more -- I don't understand how it works, the bankruptcy of EMIS. And it costs...

No, the bankruptcy itself, no.

No? It's all on the...

No cash. At least have the chance to have an acquirer at a high price. Then we could even receive some cash because the way it works is that if there is an acquisition at a certain level, the administrator -- after having paid all the suppliers, the debt, then if there is a surplus, it would be for us, but in our accounts, we don't think that. We don't take this or it could be a good news if it happens.

So I guess we went through all the questions now. Thank you all of you for attending the presentation. So we'll -- next, we'll see you on March 27 for the annual results presentation. And on the 28th with the SFAF meeting, which will happen at our location in [ Bolog. ] Thank you very much. I wish you a good night. Yes. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Bye-bye. Thank you for attending. See you later.

Thanks. Bye.