CENIT Aktiengesellschaft ($CSH)

Good morning, and a warm welcome, dear ladies and gentlemen, to the earnings call of the CENIT AG following the publication of the financial year figures of 2025. The CEO, Peter Schneck, and CFO, Dr. Johannes Fues will speak in a moment and guide us through the presentation and the results, followed by a Q&A session where we would be happy to take your questions if you may have. And having said that, Mr. Schneck, I hand over to you.

Yes. Thank you very much, and a very warm welcome also from our side, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in our today's earnings call of the CENIT AG. And thank you, of course, also for your interest in our share. As usual, my colleague, Dr. Johannes Fuss and myself, we will run you through our slides regarding the financial year 2025. And of course, we will also give you an outlook on the operational and financial expectations for 2026. And by the end of this session, we would, of course, be pleased to answer all your questions. So please hold your questions for the end to make it easier for us. So let's start with a brief management summary before we will drill down into the different topics in much more details. But just to give you a very brief view. First comment that we both have to make is that we're satisfied with the year 2025 results, ending with a very strong Q4, as you might have seen. On the financial side, we met the top line growth to close to EUR 210 million to EUR 209.5 million, as we had announced already 2 weeks ago in our preliminary statement. And of course, we are very satisfied because we had an overall challenging environment, as you all know, and most of our customers in the Aviation as well as in the Automotive business are struggling. And still, we were able to achieve this figure. And the second thing, we had, as you all know, restructuring effects in year 2025. And still, due to these effects and the reduction of about 52 employees in 2025, we still managed to have a top line growth of 1.1%. But still, again, bear in mind that this is with less than 52 people at the same time. So there was no impact on this one as some expected, and we managed to run it through the year. The EBITDA and the EBIT, as we will come to, were fully in line with our guidance. As you know, we had made a view on a minimum level, we were above those levels. We were also positive on EBIT. So we had forecasted a minus EUR 1.5 million EBIT result. And as you have seen, we are in the positive line. So we haven't faced a dip. We still kept up and are still positive, which is, I think, very good given the restructuring costs that we were facing and of course, also the challenges that we have with our U.S. entity analysis Prime that I will come to later on. And then, of course, also the operating performance was pretty good given, again, the environment and also given the fact that we had 52 employees less. And as you have seen in our strong Q4 figures, we were at least on the same, slightly better level than we were in Q4 the year before. And also, of course, facing the challenges that we have with the SaaS business where we have less PLC activities and more shifts into the SaaS business, we still had this very strong Q4 effect or hockey stick as some of you might say. Then on the operating business, and we will come to this one. We had a transformation ongoing. This was what we had announced for year 2025, and it went pretty well. We had, on one side, a very clear focus on the PLM and the EIM business. So what you will see on our website and also our report, the PLM business, which is green and then a very clear focus on the blue business, which is the documentation business around EIM. And of course, this focused also our team in these 2 segments as we have reported in the past. And what we're doing here is also overcoming the different silos in our organization so that we have much more activities also now in the cross-sells and also the mindset of our team is heading into this direction. And of course, this results in a very customer-centric reorganization, and we see the first results also on the key account management that we had introduced where we have more and more larger customers being focused by us and addressed by us and basically reacting with increased orders. So there's a certain payoff of this activity. And you will see this also when I will report later on about some important customer deals that we won. In 2025, because also of the key account management activities, we see an increase of larger deals, and we have still also driven by the challenges in the different market momentum and the customer demand that we see, where we definitely can say there is an increase due to the pressure that especially Automotive in Europe, but also other industry segments are facing. And the answer is a transition into the PLM world of the future. And then as I already mentioned, we're also very happy to announce that we have stabilized our U.S. acquisition in the United States, which we did in 2024, so Analysis Prime. As you know, we had a certain dip. There were over enthusiastic maybe in their forecast. We already had reduced this one, but they even ended up below this. The business is still there. We see the business. We see an increase in the pipeline. And in year 2025, we managed to reduce the losses in this organization, where, unfortunately, we're not breakeven, but coming to a point where we also had a very positive end in December 2025. And of course, we see for year 2026 that we're back on track. We had kept the level in our planning for year 2026 as it was for 2025. So we have a very slight positive EBIT effect that we have planned, though that the team is, of course, targeting for a higher level, and we're very confident that we will end up at least on the planning level and anything that comes beyond will help us. What we see at the same time is an increase also in the Pipeline business. We have already in Q1 of this year, we can already announce that we're EUR 1 million better in order intake for Analysis Prime than we were the year before at the same time. Then we would like to run you also through a little bit, of course, a slight outlook into 2026, where we are now collecting the fruits of our transition work and restructuring work that we have done in year 2025. We will, of course, focus on continuous performance management. We will increase the efficiency. Our focus is on EBITDA -- improving the EBITDA level for this year. So also from the M&A side, you will not see a lot of activities or basically no acquisition that we see at the moment, and we will slow down also as we did in 2025 on acquisitions. Our focus is really making sure that we increase the efficiency of our organization and that we collect the fruits of what we have seen out in year 2025. And then, of course, we will also address the change in -- from the Prime standard into the scale segment. We will explain this also on an additional slide that you're going to see. But of course, why have we done this is basically reducing bureaucracy given the current capitalization that we see in the market, we are facing quite some administrative work and also costs attached to this one, and that's why we have taken this decision to do this move to reduce the cost, the bureaucracy and the administration work that we have for our team. And then if we look into year 2026, as you can see here, the focus is on increasing efficiency, and this will result, as you can see here in our guidance that we have already announced 2 weeks ago, we will definitely be above EUR 210 million in revenues. But what is key, and I think much more important for all of you and of course, for us is we are targeting for an EBITDA that is at least EUR 18 million or better than EUR 18 million EBITDA for year 2026, which would be then an increase of 46.3% given to the results of 2025. And I think that this is a major increase and would be then also, at least in total figures, be the highest EBITDA level that was ever achieved at CENIT, unfortunately, not percentage-wise, but at least figure-wise, and we will come to this as well. So this in a nutshell, and then maybe we will jump now into the figures first for year 2025, and I would like to hand over to Johannes.

Yes. Good morning. I'm happy to guide you through the figures. And as Peter already said, we announced the figures some 2 weeks ago. That kind of lifts the pressure a little bit from today. So there is no surprises. But there is context and my presentation or our presentation is more about giving some context sharing some insight, sharing the way we view and look upon our company. I'd like to start with a little bit longer overview to give you -- also give you context on that part. We finished with a top line of [ EUR 209.5 million ]. So given the challenging environment, I'd say that the momentum is intact. And then Peter is going to come to that. We have very good feedback from the customers also right now as we're starting into the year. But remember, we are in a time where economic factors are not great, and we have hot wars happening. So that's also one reason that we tend to look as we go forward a little bit more cautious than that item. Further, we put down the EBITDA. And let me also start with a more general comment on that one. EBITDA is the much more operating figure, and that's also the reason that we -- as we go forward, we tend to focus more on EBITDA than on EBIT because -- and then we're going to be very transparent on that, the EBIT discussions tends to have not only the regular depreciation and amortization, which is not much, but also M&A in fact can be part of the play here. And my personal perception was that it kind of watered some of the discussions that we have. So as we go forward and as we put our focus on the actual performance improvement, we will be looking more on EBITDA and we're going to be discussing more of the EBITDA improvements. Okay. How do we end up in '25? The EBITDA, [ EUR 12.3 million EBIT positive, EUR 0.3 million ]. They contain material onetime effects. And then I'm going to have a table much more for that. I'm going to be very transparent because basically, what you see is we have a company that has the major effects in H1, first half year of '25 and a company, and we've seen that in the figures of Q3 already, a company that really shows the signs of the effect of the improved profitability structure in Q4 and basically Q3, Q4. Yes. We updated our guidance in the summer, late summer '25. We achieved that guidance. We quite nicely grew into these spots, ended up revenues above the guidance and EBIT well above the guidance. So that's very, very positive. Let's start a deeper look. And as I said, we're going to be very transparent here what's inside those '25 numbers. If you look at the EBITDA, EUR 12.3 million, there is onetime effects of EUR 6 million in there, which contain again, the restructuring that we've been communicating all along. That's the restructuring that happened in the first half year, mainly Q1 of '25. And that's the very reason that we actually see the improved structures since that grew into place. And the second one is that we had some challenges connected to M&A activities connected to the U.S. asset and the start of the growing phase of that asset in '25. And that resulted in an EBITDA and an operating loss of EUR 2 million. That is also included in these numbers. As you see in the reporting and as you see in the business report on the year '25, everything that we say is as is. There is no adjustments made in the CENIT reporting world. And so this is always included. If we look deeper, you are aware that we have 2 segments. We have the Enterprise Information Management segment, and we have the PLM segment being the bigger one, the 75% of our business. And this is where we made for this call an exception to really figure and then illustrate the profitability and performance structure as we see it today in the status that we actually see the restructuring effects in place and so that we allowed ourselves to have a as if illustration on the bottom right of this page. And then you see that as we move and as we go along, that we have a quite nice structure in the PLM sector also, again, it's a stable top line EUR 165 million. We have a close to 6% EBITDA that we intend to grow as we move along. And we have still some 3% EBIT if we deduct all the special effects that all affect only the PLM segment because this is where the activity happens. Yes, you're also aware that this U.S. asset right now is in the PLM segment. This has not changed. This is just the same structure. In the future, there -- and we are in management discussions to actually regroup that to the EIM segment as the business is much closer to the EIM segment in its nature and in its addressing of the customers and the offer to the customers. Yes. Let's move on with some more group figures. Start on the right side with really the sales by the segment. This is what I just said. The EIM sales have developed quite nicely, very purely organic 5% growth, which is nice and put us in a position where we have made EUR 44 million with that segment. And you have, at the same time, the sales, the top line and the PLM segment. Stable, as I said, no operating, no organic growth at that time. But again, as we are aware of the situation that we're in, I think this is not too bad. A little bit more interesting if we go to the left side of this page, you can see what we call the playbook in place. We have very nice growth where it matters, and this is the service side and this is the software side. And we're happy to say that we grew by more than 10% on the CENIT software, which is our own IP that makes our services sticky and our offering to the customer much more precise and sticky, also as we continue to accompany our customers in the next years. Yes. Let me continue again with some more accounting figures, if you will. We go down the P&L. The first effect, the gross profit effect is the very same playbook that I've been telling you just a second ago. We see if you follow CENIT over the years that we improve and improve the gross margin that is connected to the third-party software. And this is something that works in favor of CENIT. Again, we're able to improve that gross margin by 1.3 percentage points related to the slow churn in third-party software. The bridge that I put on the right side of this page kind of details everything that we've said in the past and all the communications in '25 on the personnel side. You are aware that we did a restructuring early '25 that was connected to restructuring expenses as a one-off. And obviously, the M&A that we did also had an effect in terms of growing the staff and consequently growing the numbers. But if you deduct those, then you see that we have already [ EUR 2.6 million ], and I don't know what that figure doesn't show in the print, it shows [ 2.6 million ] of optimization effect that is in place already. And this is the very effect that I said was begin to come to effect in second half of the year, and this has continued to grow to the full effect of the restructuring being a full year effect of EUR 5 million -- EUR 5.5 million savings per year. Given the same service and given the same revenue, this is the point that Peter was making just before. More accounting figures that I think are worth mentioning, and we put that point prominent also in the first publishing. I want to point your attention to the fact that CENIT has been -- always has been and it continued to be in '25, a cash generating, cash strong company. We were able to grow the operating cash flow by close to 40%. And this is including the one-offs that I was just saying. So this is -- it would have been higher if we wouldn't have had that. This is a very nice figure, and it has consequences. With that operating cash flow, we were able to really reduce the net bank debt by 28% or by [ EUR 6 million, EUR 7 million ], mainly repaying bank debt. So that also helps us in a very nice relation in terms of net bank debt. If you look at the leverage, if you look at the leverage and the S is EBITDA, then we're talking a figure smaller than 1.4x EBITDA. So that's very robust financing and it perfectly makes sense. Obviously, all in, the year was not positive. So also that last figure on the right, the equity ratio, I think, is a very good figure. We were able to -- by steering the balance sheet and actually shortening the balance sheet, keep the equity ratio just the way it is at 30%, which is good. Actually, coming to end with the financial side of the business, let me just also give you a quick run through maybe on the -- a few items that I didn't comment so far. I want to be clear on that. Since it is a year with a red -- hopefully, if we can help it, the last red result of the group. But we will be proposing not to share a dividend regarding the business year '25. And yes, happy to restart distributing dividends as we're making profit. Talking through the balance sheet, the goodwill position is not a surprise. This has been unchanged since we actually finished the last -- the PPA with the last acquisition of Analysis Prime. The intangible assets, that is something that you will find interesting maybe because the intangible assets is 80% of that is a customer base. And this is also a figure, and I'm pretty sure that some of the questions will reflect that in the end. You are aware, and we've always been discussing that, that our depreciation amortization contain M&A parts. And that is here, we're reviewing the business year '25 of our American asset and decided to make a deduction from the customer base there and actually, yes, wrote down that. So there we have intangible assets of EUR 11 million on the balance sheet or customer base of around EUR 8 million in the balance sheet across the group. The cash flow, I have been commenting on. Yes, as I said, really, we use the operating cash to repay bank loans. We have a strong free cash flow. That's a very good figure. And I really like that part of the business. Last thing I'm going to comment on this side from my side is the market cap. You are aware, I'm not going to comment on the market, but it's no secret that we cannot be satisfied at that level. We're going to come to that in the end. So we have finished the year with a market cap of EUR 61 million. Right now, we're a little bit under that. It's EUR 50 million, EUR 55 million of market cap. And that is something that we take very seriously and put everything else in order -- actually to walk the talk to do everything that we can to improve the operating business and to make that number move to where it belongs. Peter, do you want to comment on the order backlog?

Yes, absolutely. This is what I would like to jump in. And before I come to the order backlog, one thing that I would highlight maybe especially for the Anglo American investors, the free cash flow, the very high and positive development that we have on the free cash flow side, at least in the Anglo American market is seen as an indication for the upcoming EBIT. So you see it's heading into the right direction, and we're very happy on this one and of course, also working to increase in the future. If we then jump on the order backlog that I would like to outline is that we have a change of 15.3%. So about EUR 12 million increase from last year to this year. And this is, of course, relate -- I mean, there are 3 effects that we have. One effect is that, of course, we have now full year in of Analysis Prime. This is one thing. The second thing is we see the shift, of course, more and more into the SaaS business. So of course, now we have long-term contracts that are following into this one, and that's why you see this increase. And then the last and third one, which is also a positive one is we have larger deals. So the size of the deals are increasing. We are entering into, I would say, customer segment that we didn't touch before. We were considered to be too small, but now with maybe passing on the EUR 200 million line. We are considered by more and more large entities and corporations in this world. And this is where we are lately also getting quite some pretty good businesses, which on one hand is volatile, as you all know. On the other hand, of course, we will continue focusing also on the mid-market in future and also have some initiatives to make sure that we stay in this market. But of course, we are focusing now also on the larger corporations. And. I think this is heading into the right direction, and we're targeting for year 2026 that this will pass the 3-figure level so that by the end of the year, we would be then hopefully have an order backlog that goes beyond the EUR 100 million. So this is what we're targeting for. And this is now heading into the operational business where I would like to give you an idea on what happened in 2025 and maybe also what's going to happen in year 2026. I don't want to comment on all of those, but just going to pick some of them so that you see also what I just mentioned, the larger customers. And number one that we are very happy of is [indiscernible] . I mentioned this already in some of our calls in 2025. But this is an ongoing customer situation that we have with the customer. So this is not a onetime hit. [indiscernible] Is investing more and more, and we're entering more and more into this very interesting organization in doing PLM work and migration work. though the customer changed from Dassault to Siemens. We're doing a lot of migration work into the other system and the transition. But of course, also the migration into the SAP PLM solution that we are as our proprietary software selling and helping this customer. So this is a big several million -- multimillion deal that is growing and will also continue to make us happy in year 2026. The same applies to BOBST. BOBST is a Swiss packaging company that decided to start slowly with us in year 2025 and has now recently decided to do the next larger step. And there's, again, also a multimillion deal behind this one for year 2026, where we do migration, where we do support work PLM and ERP means our own software solution of the SAP section, but of course, also supporting on the 3DS side. So very interesting customer for us and really pushing into the right direction. Then what we also managed to do is we won another extension with Porsche and on top of some implementation work. So you see even automotive companies under pressure are now taking the right decisions into the right direction, digitalizing more and CENIT is their first choice. So we're very happy that we have -- that we will continue our long-term relationship with Porsche for at least the next 3-plus years and receiving additional business. And then in the Aviation business, we were able to sell our proprietary solution from the DFS business called FASTSUITE to Bombardier to the whole manufacturing processes. So we're becoming more and more key into the whole production process on the robotics side. So this was for us a very important deal. And again, this means that there will be more to come in year 2026 also on this level because they go through all their manufacturing plants. And the final one that I would like to mention that we worked hard on in year 2025 and got some first licenses and see now in Q1 and Q2. There are larger orders now entering is, of course, [indiscernible] . [indiscernible] , as you might know, is the largest Chinese plane manufacturer. So it's a competitor of our customers, Boeing and Airbus. And this is a fast-growing Asian manufacturer, and we're already right in the middle with our own proprietary software. And of course, we're supporting them also with our full portfolio. So you see in 2025, we were targeting on larger customers. We managed to get those large customers, and this helps us now also to head into year 2026 with quite some nice backlog, as you've seen, but also some potential for additional customers. And we have a very nice outlook for year 2026, at least what we can see now for Q2. This will be very positive. If we then look into the operating structure of our organization, you see what we have mentioned before, we have pushed through what we call the CENITification. So we have made sure that all our subsidiaries that we acquired in the past years are getting except of Analysis Prime and Sentox, which will be anyhow not -- Sandox will be something that will not continue in the future. So this was a consortium for the Airbus business and will not be continued. But except of Analysis Prime, we changed all names on the green side into CENIT. So we will have a very unified marketing thing. And what is also behind this one is, of course, we have some synergies that we were able to focus on. So we are reducing costs. We are increasing efficiency. and we are also increasing transparency and figures from the headquarter that we can push the button and have immediate access to all the figures of those entities, which we did not have in the past. So in certain levels, we were kind of blind or we had delayed information. Now we have real-time information, and this helps us. To the customer side, of course, this means very clear focus. It's either PLM or it's either EIM that we're selling. And within those entities, it's one entity, one service, one sales team that is now focusing on the customers and supporting the customers, which, of course, increases our cross sales. And the customers that I just mentioned before are cross-sales results. So we were not only with one or the other business unit in this entity, we were really with our full PLM portfolio presence in these customers and now increasing our sales in this entity. And the same applies on the EIM side. You see here MIP and ISR. The plan is that also MIP will be changed in naming during this year into ISR as well. So that for the customer, it's very clear, blue and green. This is what we get. This is the portfolio, and we have one team that is tackling the customers. So if we then switch on a question that you might have all raised and that I'm receiving several times in some of our calls, but also some of your -- of the shareholders that are contacting me directly. And of course, also that is reflected in our share price, the concern on how does AI change our business. And you might have seen that lately, Dassault System took a major hit and also SAP, both partners because there is the fear that their software might be replaced by AI or at least their importance might be reduced, which might have an impact on us. This is at least what some of the shareholders obviously see. And there's also a very interesting article that just today came out in the French newspaper from Pascal Dalos, the CEO of Dassault System that is exactly arguing and talking about this issue. I don't want to comment on this, and I don't want to comment how AI will affect those software providers. What I can tell you is, from our point of view, our view is that we have 2 different use cases of AI which we consider as very positive. There's one, as you can see here, that we call the customer view, and there is another one that we call the internal view. And I would like to start with the customer view. Number one level that we call here is what we see is because of AI, our customers realize that they have to prepare their whole data set, and they have to create one data lake or one data warehouse because if you don't have this consolidation of your data, if you don't have your data in the cloud, there's no way that you're going to use AI, whatever AI solution you're going to use. So this is something that we see at the moment that we are approached from a lot of our customers that have this concern and ask us to help them to get into this next level. And this is where we have, as of today, some modules, consulting modules as well as migration modules as, of course, well also our own solutions already available that we can sell for those customers, and we're doing this. And we see a major increase in this level. So again, it's helping us and it's increasing our sales because customers are totally overwhelmed with this situation. And even CIOs from large entities on the SDAX or DAX level are [indiscernible] for help and support from CENIT. So this is something that helps. Level 2 is, and then we're talking about the solutions from our partners. Again, like I said, I don't want to go into who's better or not, and I will not comment this year today. The only thing that I would like to mention is, again, from the point of view of CENIT, Dassault System had a solution called V5, so Version 5 that we have sold to most of our customers. So most of the 3000, 3,500 customers that are using V5 as of today are on this level. And the challenge is that this solution is way too good. When Dassault launched Version 6, there was no compelling event for most of our customers to move in the 3DEXPERIENCE. Now with V7, the customers realize, although that there are only first modules available that they have to prepare and that the shift from V5 to V7 will take at least a year to 2 years. So that in 2 years, they can fully use those solutions. And just to give you an idea is what this means is that if you want to build a plane, instead of having 80 engineers working on a plane, you're going to sit today in front of this machine and going to say with 1 or 2 engineers, I want to build a plane and then you get a proposal. And then on this, you start on the scratch, you start basically changing whatever you want to change. But you also have knowledge from other segments, industry segments from yachting, from automotive or whatever that goes into the solution, which most of the automotive or aviation engineers were not having. So it's really a powerful tool, and that's why we see this now as a compelling event, and we see the increase now of our customers saying, now there is a reason to move from V5 to V7. Let's have a chat. Let's talk about this. So for us, again, from a CENIT point of view, this is increasing our business, and this is helping us now to sell the next level and to make sure that we move this 3,000 to 3,500 customers into the V7 world, which would be a major challenge for the next at least 5 years. What then in 5 years is going to happen? I don't have the crystal ball on the table. But as of today, this is pushing our business. I don't see any threat for us in this environment. Level 3, this is our own solutions. There, you've seen already now on the EIM side, what Johannes just mentioned, you've seen that there was an increase. And one of this increase in the EIM sales is based also on BuildSimple because this is our own proprietary AI solution that we started 4 years ago. And we have now tripled our sales in this segment, and it's a start growing business that we definitely have here. It's fully done and it's available for sale. So we're selling this again, like I mentioned, tripled our activities in this area, and this will be something that we're going to push. Then we are in the middle, that's why I call it in progress. The solution of FASTSUITE, which is the robotic solution as of today is a solution where you have to sit in front of the PC and you have basically to manage all the different figures and also some of the use cases by yourself and you have to be really a specialist in using the software. So you need a kind of background on melting or anything else. What we are developing at the moment is FASTSUITE. We have first solutions already available and we are testing with customers where you can use an AI assistant just by speech to bot. So instead of doing all this manual work on the figures, you can just say, please make sure you do this and that. And then the system based on the knowledge, of course, that is available in the background is creating this solution and then you can immediately start with this one, which will help us also in markets like, for example, the U.S. where you don't have highly qualified specialists at least on the manufacturing side because they don't have the apprentices system as we have this year in Germany. So this will help us quite a lot, and we will increase our sales as well. And then, of course, what we also are using already with our customers is when we are implementing our solution, we now do with our customers and provide those customers already solutions where they can do the software testing and then also some of the coding that is required by themselves with AI solutions. So this is additional business for us. This is now a customer view. If we switch to the internal view, and this is something that you also should have in mind that is quite important for us. Johannes, if you can just switch one slide. The internal view is, of course, given us the opportunity. And I don't want to go through all these cases that you see here, but we have started an internal project where we try to increase the use of AI solutions that are available. This is, of course, just starting the MS Copilot for the sales team where we have created certain bots, that give you outstanding reports on a customer situation so that you can go to this customer and immediately say, look, this is your problem. I identified that you have done these changes, and this is what we can offer you. Then, of course, we are using AI solutions already for the coding in our organization. We're not hiring software coders or pure software coders anymore as we did in the past. And of course, also on the logging, on the monitoring, we are using already AI solutions to reduce the use of team members, which, of course, helps us on one hand, to reduce costs. On the second one is it allows us to scale our sales and activities in this area with the same or maybe even reduced team. And this is where we see a huge potential for us also to reduce our, what we call administrative or costs in the future. So we have these 2 areas that we're focusing on where we have our internal projects. And of course, we will give you always updates over the coming sessions. But there you see this will have a very positive impact. That's why we are big fans of AI. We don't see AI as a threat. We see this really as a big chance for NET. And as you've seen here, we just have to use it the right way. It's like in the past, when PCs and notebooks were coming up, everybody was afraid of this. And at the end, it created a lot of additional jobs. But for us, it creates a lot of additional sales opportunities, and this is what we're focusing on. So we were positive about this, and that's why we think that the hit that we are taking because of the SSM or any other shares in the IT infrastructure business is definitely not something that should be on it. We should be, I think, more likely on the positive side and use this window of opportunity for the future. If we then look into the year 2026, just to give you an outlook on this side and of course, also the change of segment, I think I can just...

Let me wrap it up.

Yes, absolutely. One thing, just Johannes, from the operational side, as you've seen before, we are very confident that we will have additional larger customer situations that we're working on, and you will hear now in Q2 already some of these effects. And the key account management efforts that we have started in last year are already paying off. We are facing even a situation where we have to slow down a little to make sure that our team can handle those opportunities that come.

That's true. That's true. Yes, let me wrap it up before we come to the Q&A section. Happy -- Peter and I are happy to answer your questions. we intend a change of segment. Why? There's no secret that we're not going to comment the market, but there is no secret that we cannot be satisfied with the valuation where we are right now. So we put everything on a testing setup what contributes to the development of operating figures and what doesn't. And unfortunately, over the years and the perception of the cost and the benefits has not improved. And so that's why we reduced -- decided to reduce bureaucracy. Important thing is what's not going to change is transparency to the shareholders, quarterly reporting, IFRS, everything that shows our commitment to the capital market and to you and also to the development of the recreation of the recovery of that value, that does not change. We are -- I'm personally in the talks with Deutsche Börse, we intend to actually realize that change of segment end of April, beginning of May. Yes, let me finish with the very positive view that we have to the year '26. This is something that Peter and I have been pointing out right from the beginning of today's session. Given the situation we are in, we are not focusing -- spend too much time on the -- to demonstrate top line growth. Obviously, we are aiming higher, but I don't think that there is -- given the certain circumstances, we are not -- would not be properly advised to have a focus on that. So that's why we're guiding on more than EUR 210 million. The main thing that you see, and this is anything but shy, I'd say, the main thing that you're going to see in '26 is a significant improvement in profitability. That is something that we have already in place that we have really reached in the last 8, 9 months. So that is something that we see very positive, and that brings us to an EBITDA of more than EUR 80 million absolute or the respective figure and EBITDA margin. But then you have also in mind that this is just the very next step to improve to the long-term strategy, to improve our value by means of the Strategy 2030. So for today, I think we're at the end of the session. We're very happy to take any questions.

[Operator Instructions] And we already received the first hand from Mr. Kai. So we are happy for your questions.

Maybe a start in contrast to your recent order intake to your order backlog, the 2026 revenue guidance seems a bit conservative. Any effects we need to think about the expectations you have? And what could be a trigger that you maybe get more positive on that side?

Yes, Mr. Kai, thank you very much for this remark. You are right that we have launched a kind of conservative view. Though on the other hand, given the situation that we are facing due to geopolitical situations, we just had a situation 2 days ago, there was -- the Strait of Hormuz was closed. Now it's open, it's closed again. What you always have to bear in mind is our customers are affected by this. And we are seeing customers that are struggling, of course, and this is why we -- like I said, we are in a volatile situation where we have volatile customer situations. And these are large customer situations where we had other than in the past, now [ 5 million or 6 million ] deals that come or don't come and that are affected by this kind of situations, like geopolitical things that we cannot affect. If this will come down, we will definitely be above the figures that we have mentioned in here. But given the situation that we all don't know and like I said before, we don't have a crystal ball on the table, we are more likely conservative. There is no trigger on our side that we can pull to say if we do this or that. I think we are very well prepared. We are focused. We have focused our team. And definitely, we also have prepared for the positive situation. This would mean also an increase on staffing on one or the other side that we will need. And then, of course, the scaling effect that we have already prepared and we're ready to go this path if the environment allows us to go. So what we do at the moment is on site, what we would like to avoid is, as you all know in the past, this was a struggle, especially for myself, Johannes was not there at that time. But given you kind of forecast that is reliable, and I don't want to change during the year our guidance. That's why we kept the guidance on a -- as you can call it, conservative level and anything that comes beyond. I'm more than happy or we are more than happy to change this and to announce that unfortunately, we will be EUR 10 million or more or whatever above. But at the moment, we are reluctant given the political situation.

Perfect. And maybe in this context, how did Q1 start? Any feedback from you or from the customer side?

From our side, Q1, I mean, we will not definitely say in full, as you know, there will be another session. And we are still, of course, closing some of the entities. But we can say we're absolutely in line with our plan, even slightly above, I would say. And on the customer side, we see some very positive developments. As I mentioned already before, we had some order intakes in Q1 already that are very promising, and we are working on deals that will allow us also to have a very nice, safe and maybe even outstanding Q2. So we're very positive about this one. There's nothing to worry what we can see at the moment.

And maybe one short last question on Analysis Prime. Could you give us some final numbers for '25? And I think you already mentioned some input for 2026, how we should think about the acquisition?

Yes. What we have done is also here a conservative view. For year 2026, we have included almost the same revenue figure that we achieved in 2025, which is in the area of about USD 14 million. And we have included for year 2026, a very slight positive EBIT figure, which is above 0. So it's positive, but it's nothing outstanding. The plan of our team in the U.S. is more than [$1 million ] above this one, though we know in EBIT in U.S. dollars. But we know that sometimes they are enthusiastic. There are certain struggles and things. So that's why we said anything that comes beyond what we have in our plan will help us and is happy and is welcomed. But again, we're here on the conservative side. So we're very confident that we will achieve at least our planned figures. And if we just look at Q1, again, I can also say that we are in line, and I would even say maybe on the positive side of our expectations for Q1. And as I said also before, we're back on track. So we see on the order intake, a very positive development. We have USD 1 million more order intake than we had in the first quarter of year 2025. So this is a very positive development. And we see also in the U.S. quite some movement in this area. So that's why we're very confident to achieve our figures this year at least. Again, it's on a lower level, we expect to exceed it.

So Mr. Filker, we have you for your questions.

Just 2 follow-up questions on Analysis Prime. You have shown that the personnel costs rose in 2025 on one hand because of the restructuring expenses, but on the other hand, because of the full year inclusion of Analysis Prime. You have shown on one slide, EUR 6 million increase. Is the EUR 6 million increase completely to Analysis Prime?

I think this goes to the one to the personnel figures that I showed. Yes, that has been the only contribution to the group in '25. But let me answer also more on the overall figures with Analysis Prime, Mr. Filker. As you've seen in the overall chart, which is reflected in the group results is a negative EBITDA of minus EUR 2 million. That is, if you will, the operating loss, including some restructuring and then a negative EBIT of another EUR 4 million, totaling EUR 6 million negative EBIT effect in our numbers by that thing. Which includes just the regular write-down of PPA positions of customer base. And then as I said, there was one additional figure when we review that success -- reviewed that year, we decided to make an additional write-down on the customer base. So that's the figures that is included in the group figures that we presented.

And one slide add-on, Mr. Filker, the EUR 6 million included, as Johannes just mentioned, of course, also some restructuring costs that we had on the U.S. side. So we have reduced our staff about 20 team members. And as you recall, we had about 72 team members that joined us when we acquired the organization. By the end of the year, we were at about 52. So 20 team members that we reduced. And of course, we had some of those team members that we put under furlough, which is in German kind of [indiscernible] . And by the end of this time, of course, you have to make a decision whether you take those team members or not. Fortunately, in U.S., the costs are less than in U.S. than in Europe if then you take a decision not to continue with the employees. But of course, there's cost attached to this one. So the EUR 6 million, there is a restructuring cost attached to get rid of the 20 team members and to have a final payoff to basically get rid of.

But allow us to finish on a positive note. I think, obviously, the numbers in '25 are not great, and they are fully reflected and very extensively reflected in our reported numbers. Peter, the question was kind of between the lines, would you do the deal again? And how do you see the future? Yes, I think this is a very good business.

Absolutely, definitely. I would do the deal again, given the pricing that we also had and also the value that we would achieve if we sell the organization, this is definitely a great deal. As you all recall, we also had a kind of earn-out session attached to this one already kind of sensing that we should be a little reluctant. So this paid off. And we basically acquired a top organization with a very good access to the market. And again, this market is growing. These are the, I would say, normal challenges that a German company has in acquiring U.S. company. So there's a start-up and that faces already in other entities as well. And then lately, this became the stars in the portfolio, and this is also what I'm seeing here with Analysis in the future.

Okay. Just a follow-up question on that. Can you just explain what led to the increase in goodwill at Analysis Prime? Is it just because of revaluation of the elements of goodwill and intangible assets?

Yes, that was a slight shift that was, I think, reflected in the Q3 numbers, just connected to the finalization of the PPA in the period 12 months after the deal, so mid-'25, and there was a slight uplift on the goodwill connected, as you said, to the revaluation at intangible asset at that time.

Okay. And just the last question from my side. Could you just explain what led to the significant increase in own software revenue at the end of the year? Are there also front-loading effects included in this?

Peter?

No, there's no front-loading or anything included in this one, absolutely not.

Okay. So it's operative positive development at the end of the year, like it's always, but this time, it was yes, bigger than in the previous years?

Basically, it's something that we want to grow from much more.

And in the meantime, we received further virtual hands, and then we move on with Mr.[indiscernible]

The first question is on order intake. Mr. Schneck, you mentioned that due to the shift to more SaaS revenues or more SaaS contracts, this is also a reason why we see a higher order intake. So my question would be if you can share what amount in the order book or in the order intake is related to a longer time frame than 2026? And the second question is about the robotics topic. You mentioned in the presentation, I think that's a very dynamic area currently, especially if we look to China. So can you share some light to this? For example, how big is this area for you right now? Are you also working with Chinese customers? And what is your general view on the perspective of this segment?

Yes, absolutely. Coming to both of your questions, Mr. Schwan, number one, I don't have a figure that I can off the hip now give you where I say this is EUR 3.2 million or whatever million that goes beyond 2026. Honestly, I haven't viewed this way so far. So we will provide you this figure or in this context here and make sure that you get those figures. Sorry I can't do this off the hip now, and I don't want to make an estimation. Coming to the second question, robotics. Yes, we see -- I mean, there are 2 markets that are for us at the moment, growing and very interesting. It is the U.S. market where we see a major increase on the robotics side and is the Chinese market. The existing German and French market where we have been already very strong with our DFS business is a kind of moving sidewards, I would say. So there's not a lot of this enthusiasm that I can share that I see, for example, in the U.S. business or especially in the Chinese business. And when you refer to the Chinese business, yes, we have now a lot of large customers in the Chinese market. This is why we also have expanded our entity in China by additional team members. And I mean, I just mentioned one customer, which is [indiscernible] . And as you can imagine, they are starting to produce planes. They have currently 43 planes out there in the air and not only in China, in the Asian market. So it's very likely that over the next I would even say 3 to 5 years. You will see them already also here in Europe. And of course, Airbus and Boeing will do their best to keep them out of the market. But honestly, they have the full licenses and everything. So they will be down the road, definitely also be a potential competitor here in the market. And given their cost structure, we will face there a lot more business. So at the moment, we are starting with their production. And also for your information, these are productions that are mainly dark factories. So when we have been there at the site, they switched on the lights to show us how they produce the planes. So they're ahead of the production processes that we see at other plane manufacturers. But we also have a customer called [ XCMG ], which is 5x larger than the German company, Lipa. And basically, what they do is cranes and special vehicles. So there's a lot of customers now in the Chinese market that are upcoming. They have a large size that are not known beyond the Chinese market yet, but that we are talking to and that we're entering into. And we are playing also a certain advantage since we have our Chinese entity, and we have decoupled our proprietary software in a way that the Chinese customers feel well as or confident as well if there would be any kind of geopolitical situation where they have no access to the sourcing that they could continue with our Chinese entity. And this gives us a competitive advantage compared to solutions that we see from some of our partners. I don't want to mention any name, but of course, they are considered as European large entities that would cut off their relationships, and that's why they are not considered in some of these processes. So definitely, this is a growing market. China for us for the DFS business at the moment with the other entities, we cannot enter because we are limited by the software availability and also the direct businesses that SAP and Dassault are doing or not doing because they might not be ready for the market or maybe not welcomed in the market. If you have the name Dassault, it's sometimes difficult because you're considered as military. So this is a situation that we're facing, but DFS robotics is growing in China, definitely.

And just for understanding it clearly, are we talking about classical industrial robotics in terms of getting more -- getting it more automatically and more automation or also in terms of human robotics?

No. It's honestly only the classic one. We are not involved in the humanoid solutions yet. We are partnering and working together with the metaverse, if you want to call or they call it Neuraverse of Neura, which is the human robotics company close by here in [indiscernible] . So we're working with them, but we're not working in China with any entity of this. So there, we are talking about classical robotic solutions where either by speech. So this is something that we're introducing now AI solutions in China because also some of the language things. We are pushing this and then it's easier for the customers to do the constructing and manual planning of the robotic situations, and it's mainly melting in doing kind of classical robotic work that allows to automize the production of the organization.

And then we move on with Mr. Kindermann. So his hand is the last virtual one. So Mr. Kindermann, you can ask your questions.

Two questions from my side. First, you achieved cost savings of EUR 2.6 million from the personnel. What's the full year effect from this in 2026? And secondly, can you quantify the savings due to the change to the scale segment? Or is this more like a question of management capacity?

Yes. Let me answer both of them. The EUR 2.6 billion you saw already it was in '25. The full year effect that we grow in is unchanged, 5%, 5.5% that we're aiming at with that specific measure. First answer. Second answer, I'm not ready to share a specific figure, but it's a lot about internal cost, external cost and management attention. So -- and the figures alone are a 5- or 6-figure number. And then I don't think you can really value the management attention and the management focus on things that, let me be blunt, do not really contribute to anything that the shareholders would value.

And then we switch over to our chat that we have 3 questions we want to cover. And the first one is from Mr. [indiscernible] . As Dassault Systems is undergoing a strategic transformation, are there any areas where this could create headwinds for CENIT, for example, in terms of pricing, customer access or revenue visibility?

Yes. Great question, Mr. Gerard. So yes, I would definitely underline this. What we see at the moment is you've seen also that, of course, the share price of the system was quite under pressure. And as a result, of course, they are pushing the partners and helping the partners also in a certain way to increase the activities in the market. So what we see is on the pricing side, certain initiatives what help us or encourage us by better pricing, better bonus systems to have fast access to certain customer situations and segments. The second one is, yes, they push us also into new situations, new segments, you call it customer access. But just to give you an idea, when we had -- last year, we signed a deal with Al, which is a standard manufacturing, I would say, of housing. And of course, also in the construction business, the construction business has been something that we haven't been as CENIT in the past. And Dassault Systèmes is helping and supporting us here with quite some resources and investments that they do on their side. So this is really investment. So there's no -- at least in 2025, there has been no positive return of this investment for Dassault. But for us, definitely, we entered with [indiscernible] In the new segment, and we're pushing this one and they're helping this. And the other area is as well, there is a so-called [indiscernible] List existing where Dassault System in the past focused on certain customers and basically did direct sales and direct support for those customers, and they opened this list because they realize that they have to be much faster and have to work with their partners closer together. So we see definitely changes which are creating this headwind as you're describing this one. And yes, we also see this as a revenue impact for us in year 2026 and beyond.

So then the next question, are there any restructuring costs and M&A in 2026?

Not that we see.

I think the question was from Mr.[indiscernible] , we haven't planned any M&A in 2026, unless there is an outstanding opportunity like we did or like we said for year 2025. You've seen that in 2025, we haven't done anything in 2026. At the moment, we have some companies that we are monitoring, but nothing in the pipeline. So at the moment, I would also say that we're very reluctant on M&A activities for 2026. And I don't expect that this outstanding deal would come up for 2026 at the moment. And like Johannes said, restructuring costs, we also don't see it at the moment.

All right. And the last question is from Mr.[indiscernible] and he wants to know, can you give an update on the business opportunities from Volkswagen Group changing its production software system and defense and aerospace industry in general?

Yes. Coming to Section A, Volkswagen, as you all know, has decided to switch their systems of their 13 brands completely to Dassault System, which is a very positive news, but was a news that we already announced last year, beginning of the year. Up until today, we had slight contacts with Volkswagen. And I also know that there are activities of Dassault Systèem with Volkswagen. But honestly, on a very low level. We haven't included any of our in our revenue, any revenue forecast from Volkswagen Group. So this would be an add-on. We're ready. We have certain teams that we had to train and we also had to gain and prepare certain information for Volkswagen. So there are some minor costs already in 2025 and 2026 included. But on the revenue side and positive income, we were very reluctant because what we see is with these big OEMs like Volkswagen, but also BMW that took this decision almost a year before Volkswagen. So 2 years ago, up until today, there hasn't been any activity that paid off for us. and also not for any of our competitors, to be honest, because what happens is those large entities, they have to prepare their internal teams. And at the moment, the main focus at Volkswagen as well as BMW is to get their arms around the different systems that they have with SAP. So. This is really SAP core because both entities have more than 30, some of them more than 50 different SAP systems. So they have to align them before they can start with the PLM connection and also the PLM business. So this is the main focus. And that's why, again, we haven't included anything for 2026 for neither of both OEMs. We are in discussions. We're ready to go, ready and steady and Dassault System is also pushing us and promoting us. So this is not the issue. It's an internal issue that we see with these large entities. The second part of your question, defense and aerospace industry in general. As I mentioned already in some of our calls before, we have, as of today, closed a little bit more than 10% of our revenues are defense related. And then, of course, aerospace on top. So we have some aerospace customers like Airbus commercial, of course, that are not considered as defense because there's Airbus defense as well and Airbus helicopters that we consider as defense. So you see that there's something happening. The customers and of course, also some of the start-ups that you might hear in the drone area are our customers and started with Dassault Solutions to create and design those solutions. So we are involved in this business. I don't see this as a large and growing business at the moment. And the situation is, if we talk about [indiscernible] Or other entities in this area and large entities like this, they are focusing on production and speed of production, and they don't have the IT infrastructure at the moment to focus on the introduction of a better performing PLM system or maybe some of those areas. So they are really focusing on production and not so much on the IT system because they have limited resources. This is just the reason. We talk to all of them. All of them are interested and all of them have, on one hand, the idea and wish to standardize and to automize like the automotive industry did some years ago. But on the other hand, they have full order books and their focus is on getting stuff done and to get it out. So we will stay on the same level. But of course, interesting business for us. We're looking into this as well.

And in the meantime, we have received no further questions. So it seems like everything is answered so far, but should further questions arise, ladies and gentlemen, at a later time, please feel invited to contact Tanja Marinovic from Investor Relations. So therefore, we come to an end of today's call. Thank you, everyone. It was a pleasure to be your host today. And for some final remarks, I hand back to you, Mr. Schneck.

Yes. Thank you very much, and thank you for your interest in our share and the time and the good questions that you had today. I hope that we have shown you that we're very confident for year 2026. As I mentioned, 2026 was a transformation year. This work is done, and we're collecting our fruits. And as it was mentioned before, we have a conservative view given the environment that we're facing, but we're very confident that we will be at least in the range and definitely above what we have guided. And I think this is heading into the right direction and making sure that we will also achieve our 2030 target of being at a 10% EBIT level or better. So this is definitely still our target, and we're heading into the right direction. So thank you very much. And if you have any further questions, we will be present on different shows, of course, where you can always get ahead of us. And other than that, please feel free also to contact Dr. Fues and myself directly, we're always open to e-mails, calls, whatever you have or just come by in Stuttgart, we're more than happy to welcome you. Thank you very much, and have a very nice week.

Bye.